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Welsor... a different way of doing things


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#351 RW7

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 02:30

Ah yes - my old "black car" now finished in Orange and owned by Jim Templeton here in Brisbane.

Greetings all. Seldo has pointed me to this thread and I've just wasted 2 hours reading it. Fascinating!

 

I drove Baron Revelman's car for nearly ten years, I know it was a car that Seldo raced in and it was called "Welsor Waggot" in the logbook but now I'm confused as to whether it was #7 or #8 (see "orange with black stripe" in Dave's earlier comments).

 

After I blew my bank account with the Tiga Mazda I "retired", but the bug came back quickly and I heard about Baron's car which Bill Norton had converted to 1300 Corolla but had not raced it. Baron wanted to sell it at the time.

 

I talked to Baron about renting it as I told him he wouldn't sell it if it hadn't been racing, but when I took it out to Oran Park it had so many problems I told Baron I would only race it if I didn't pay. To my surprise he said "OK".

 

Once we got all the problems sorted out it was a fun car to drive - as Seldo says, a killer under brakes, but for some illogical reason I decided that as I didn't own it I wouldn't put new tyres on it  :drunk:. Accordingly I put up with terminal understeer - particularly at corner 1 on the OP short circuit. 

 

It was incredible off the line - really put its power down. So much so that at my first standing start the trailing arms bent and I found myself sitting on the tarmac! Harry Galloway made some new stronger rods for me and guess what - at the next meeting, same thing! We finally solved the problem with some very expensive material used for F/Pacifics. I have a video somehere of me starting on the third row of the grid at Wakefield and leading for almost all of the first lap.

 

After about a year Baron told me that he had decided that he didn't want to sell the car and would "hang it on his wall one day" - so that lead to 10 years of competition before I got bored with the small fields and decided to "retire" to the "slower pace" of FVee which was booming at the time.

 

Some retirement...! Here I was, an unfit, overweight 45 year old racing against 19 year olds with no fear, no brains and Dad's money. But that's off topic.

 

6y1w.jpg



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#352 seldo

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 04:03

Greetings all. Seldo has pointed me to this thread and I've just wasted 2 hours reading it. Fascinating!
 
I drove Baron Revelman's car for nearly ten years, I know it was a car that Seldo raced in and it was called "Welsor Waggot" in the logbook but now I'm confused as to whether it was #7 or #8 (see "orange with black stripe" in Dave's earlier comments).
 
After I blew my bank account with the Tiga Mazda I "retired", but the bug came back quickly and I heard about Baron's car which Bill Norton had converted to 1300 Corolla but had not raced it. Baron wanted to sell it at the time.
 
I talked to Baron about renting it as I told him he wouldn't sell it if it hadn't been racing, but when I took it out to Oran Park it had so many problems I told Baron I would only race it if I didn't pay. To my surprise he said "OK".
 
Once we got all the problems sorted out it was a fun car to drive - as Seldo says, a killer under brakes, but for some illogical reason I decided that as I didn't own it I wouldn't put new tyres on it  :drunk:. Accordingly I put up with terminal understeer - particularly at corner 1 on the OP short circuit. 
 
It was incredible off the line - really put its power down. So much so that at my first standing start the trailing arms bent and I found myself sitting on the tarmac! Harry Galloway made some new stronger rods for me and guess what - at the next meeting, same thing! We finally solved the problem with some very expensive material used for F/Pacifics. I have a video somehere of me starting on the third row of the grid at Wakefield and leading for almost all of the first lap.
 
After about a year Baron told me that he had decided that he didn't want to sell the car and would "hang it on his wall one day" - so that lead to 10 years of competition before I got bored with the small fields and decided to "retire" to the "slower pace" of FVee which was booming at the time.
 
Some retirement...! Here I was, an unfit, overweight 45 year old racing against 19 year olds with no fear, no brains and Dad's money. But that's off topic.
 
6y1w.jpg

Hi Richard
This is the original 1293 A series "black car", Chassis #7, re-engined with a Corolla but now painted orange with black stripe, similar to Chassis #8 which had a Datsun 1200 engine and was originally painted orange and black, and I think went to WA.....
Got all that...? :)
I'm surprised about the rear trailing arm problem - I did probably a couple of hundred starts and never had a problem.... Maybe 7000 on the clock and side-step the clutch was the solution...

Edited by seldo, 05 May 2014 - 04:07.


#353 RW7

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:58

Thanks Seldo. I can't explain the trailing arm problem. It could have been the increased torque from the Corolla but that is hard to believe given it was oversquare. It certainly wasn't sticky tyres!  :lol:

 

It had a copper clutch plate, so that might have been it, but did you have that too?



#354 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:15

I saw a Mallock U2 run at Collingrove. Peter Bail. That tied the arms in knots too, but that was on really soft Avons. And from memory had a BDA or similar in it. Imported car.



#355 seldo

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:43

Thanks Seldo. I can't explain the trailing arm problem. It could have been the increased torque from the Corolla but that is hard to believe given it was oversquare. It certainly wasn't sticky tyres!  :lol:
 
It had a copper clutch plate, so that might have been it, but did you have that too?

Copper plate? You gotta be kidding. I think it was a Sprite clutch

#356 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 23:37

Here's a real Welsor story, it's Col Wear to a 'T'...

Lynton posted this on the 'Personal photos...' thread this morning:

Peter (Lander) had rolled his car at Amaroo.

They were busy building the new one.

Ian and I were on the way to Oran Park for some private testing, and called into the workshop on the way to pick something up.

Col asked what we were doing, and when he found out, he said, ‘No you’re not, Peter’s going to race your car at the Farm today’ !!

It meant that Ian lost some time in the seat, but it showed how quick the car was.

We learnt a fair bit about setup that day.


That was posted when I asked about this photo:

010-Lander-WFC.jpg

Further detail:

Peter Lander is driving Ian Field’s car at the August 1973 AARC Club meeting, which as I know it, was the last meeting held at the Farm.

Neville ?, whose name escapes me, ran one of the beam axle cars.

They diced close together every race, at the front, and came away with the same time, a lap record that, of course, still stands.

You have made my day, I’ve always wanted to see a photo from that day.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 December 2019 - 23:38.


#357 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2022 - 08:43

A week ago I saw the last of the Welsor Clubmans at Morgan Park...
 
But it's changed dramatically since I last saw it:
 
0222-MPwelsor.jpg
 
Alastair Sutton-Davies has the car now and it's been transformed to such a degree that he feels it cannot ever be changed back to its original form. Not only the addition of streamlining and 'downforce' aids like the nose and wing, the chassis has been lengthened and the beam axle is gone. It's almost inconsequential that the engine is now a 1,300cc unit from a Nissan Pulsar, but that it's reputed to have about 180bhp is certainly worth noting.

It's apparently fitted with some form of swing axle on the front, though still retaining the little Hillman Imp bits incorporated by Col Wear in the beam axles. These were designed to enable the camber to be changed and were simple, so why not?
 
I regret very much that I didn't get to take a look at the car, but when the opportunity arises that I can do so i certainly will.



#358 lyntonh

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Posted 12 February 2022 - 09:48

A week ago I saw the last of the Welsor Clubmans at Morgan Park...
 
But it's changed dramatically since I last saw it:
 
0222-MPwelsor.jpg
 
Alastair Sutton-Davies has the car now and it's been transformed to such a degree that he feels it cannot ever be changed back to its original form. Not only the addition of streamlining and 'downforce' aids like the nose and wing, the chassis has been lengthened and the beam axle is gone. It's almost inconsequential that the engine is now a 1,300cc unit from a Nissan Pulsar, but that it's reputed to have about 180bhp is certainly worth noting.

It's apparently fitted with some form of swing axle on the front, though still retaining the little Hillman Imp bits incorporated by Col Wear in the beam axles. These were designed to enable the camber to be changed and were simple, so why not?
 
I regret very much that I didn't get to take a look at the car, but when the opportunity arises that I can do so i certainly will.

 
Interesting to see the changes to the car.

 

Pretty understandable after nearly fifty years.

 

Those Mallock "inspired" alterations and additions certainly look pretty permanent.

Somewhere around Mallock Mk 20 onwards, ie 1978 or later.

 

Obtaining a Historic COD might be a challenge, as Alastair says.

 

It used to be a Welsor as we knew them.......at least we know where it is.....

 

And it's great that it's running, unlike numerous other race cars parked in sheds for a multitude of reasons.



#359 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2022 - 10:10

Thanks for posting, Lynton...

 

Do you happen to have a photo of this car in its original guise (1982?)?

 

From memory, this was the car Col planned to put an air-cooled Honda (7 or 9) engine into. Even if it did turn the wrong direction.



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#360 GazChed

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Posted 12 February 2022 - 11:09

At the risk of upsetting Australian enthusiasts who can remember the car in it's original guise, but what a great looking little car and it would look entirely at home on a Classic Clubmans (pre 1980) grid. I guess the Pulsar engine is fairly new compared to the 1700 Ford Kent engines the top class of Classic Clubmans cars use, the best of which are producing 190 bhp.

#361 lyntonh

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Posted 12 February 2022 - 12:01

Thanks for posting, Lynton...

 

Do you happen to have a photo of this car in its original guise (1982?)?

 

From memory, this was the car Col planned to put an air-cooled Honda (7 or 9) engine into. Even if it did turn the wrong direction.

 
I didn't ever see the car in its early days.

 

I was otherwise occupied in the early eighties.

 

I'll do some hunting and see if anything turns up.



#362 lyntonh

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Posted 12 February 2022 - 12:13

Whilst on the subject of operating Welsors, here is a photo of John Wishart's Welsor.

 

It's the Ian Field car shown on here in post # 356 above.

 

The photo came through John Wishart via a Facebook post in January 2019, and is at Morgan Park in 2018.

 

The photo is labelled clearly for attribution.

 

35-C14417-9099-4-B65-A75-F-914-B61-A7-BD



#363 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 February 2022 - 13:51

Originally posted by GazChed
At the risk of upsetting Australian enthusiasts who can remember the car in it's original guise, but what a great looking little car and it would look entirely at home on a Classic Clubmans (pre 1980) grid. I guess the Pulsar engine is fairly new compared to the 1700 Ford Kent engines the top class of Classic Clubmans cars use, the best of which are producing 190 bhp.



It's really a very long story...

A Pom was among the instigators of the 'Clubman Formula' in Australia. He was steeped in a background of Trials (muddy hills, ascended by cars with skinny wheels, knobbly treads and agile passengers).

It was his idea that the 'formula' would include the words:
 
 

The purpose of the Formula is to define a restricted design, low-cost sports car of conventional layout and suited to participation in a wide range of competitive events.



For many years the clause, '(it must) be generally of non-aerodynamic form' was included. Hence through the sixties and well into the seventies, the Clubman Racing Associations of the principal states were happy to accept that aerodynamic aids were not a part of the design franchise.

But the time came when those, mainly people with better budgets, who put a strong case to follow the British lines and 'make the cars look more modern' and improve lap times.

It cut across the grain of the thoughts of those with lesser budgets, but the promise of improved lap times (without mentioning greater performance gaps between haves and have-nots) appealed to enough to see the ideas accepted and written into the rules.

With regard to the engines, initially the Formula was limited to 1,100cc engines. 1,500cc cars existed in abundance (Lotus Super 7s and the like) and they were permitted to run in the same races as a class of their own for some years but had to comply with general Sports Racing rules, which meant they needed to have the regulated doors.

In 1971 the 1,100cc limit was raised to 1,300cc and 1,600cc was adopted for the larger-engined 'class'.

Soon enough the introduction of professionally-modified Toyota Corolla 3K engines - lighter than the Fords and getting close to the power of the 1,600s - meant that the 1,300 limit was becoming more meaningful. David Seldon with his forceful driving of the 1,293cc BMC-engined beam-axle Welsor aided in this logical move.

Other Japanese engines of 1.3 litres, the Datsun 1,200 engine and the Galant among them, gave some variety and some hope for those who didn't want to conform to Corolla domination.

So all of these engines conspired to show that the lumps of cast iron from Dagenham were old-hat and heavy from about 1970 onwards.

Just what engine this particular car is using I don't know for sure. Like I said, I'd love to have had a close look at it and that's one of my reasons. It might be the E13 SOHC unit produced in the early nineties.

#364 seldo

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Posted 03 May 2022 - 09:17

Thanks for the link Ray. Fascinating to see these cars restovated although I do think it’s a bit of a tragedy in a way.
One of the appeals and rationale of these cars was the very simplicity and economy of basic and non-aerodynamic
mostly flat-panelled bodywork.
These “improvements” and modernization immediately defeat some of the attractions and cost advantages of the
original simplicity.
BTW - the quote from I think Lynton H (?) about the final Warwick Farm club meeting mentioned that apart from Fieldie’s car with Lander, another Welsor was driven by a Neville X. As I was overseas it was my “black car” driven by my good mate Neville Winley. :)

#365 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 May 2022 - 12:50

Yes, from Lynton Hemer...

 

You would remember him as Ian's offsider when he went racing.



#366 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 June 2022 - 14:05

I saw this car today, it certainly does look as neat and tidy as it is in the pic. It's got a bit of a reputation at Morgan Psrk, where it laps in about 1m 21s with John's son, Jsson driving. John is apparently about a second slower than his son, but you might expect that when John is 79 years old.

I also had a closer look at Alistair's car, in particular the conversion from beam axle to swing axles at the front:

0622-MPwelsorfrontend.jpg
Axles swinging. A previous owner converted the car from beam axle to swing axles, Alistair has revised it a bit because it had massive bump steer problems. It retains the Hillman Imp pieces at the outer ends, complete with camber adjustment, there is a shim-style adjustment to the caster at those strange-looking 3-pronged trailing arms.

0622-MPwelsordatsunengine.jpg
Datsun engine. The engine is well-developed and gives plenty of power for a 1300. Some bottom end components come straight from the Datsun 1200 pushrod engine. The scavenge pump is from a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.

0622-MPwelsorcockpit.jpg
Big boy needs room. Modifications to the cockpit area include curving the top tubes outwards to make way for the driver's arms and shoulders.



#367 seldo

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Posted 18 June 2022 - 14:52

Thanks Ray - interesting. I’m sure Col would turn in his grave, but at least it’s good to see the car still running.
I always had a bit of a yearning to procure “the black car” and apply some improvements unfettered by Col’s basic ( of necessity) mantra of “as cheap as possible”.
Eg - the original beam axle was a bit of water-pipe (why? - “ strong and cheap”) but I’m sure the car could be improved with better materials/ parts chosen for optimum performance rather than just cheapest.
With that wonderful wisdom of hindsight I’ve always thought the car could be significantly improved, even just with some development. We really changed almost nothing from the day it was built, and I was told to just drive around its shortcomings - for example to just cope with the terminal under steer which I hated.
I don’t believe we ever changed anything apart from tyre pressures ( and even rarely changed tyres…)

#368 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 June 2022 - 14:56

Not just running, David...

 

It's running quickly, and the man is ready to do whatever is needed to keep it so.

 

I thought it was delightful that his wife was paining pictures in the paddock area while he was preparing the car.



#369 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 04:23

Thanks Ray - interesting. I’m sure Col would turn in his grave, but at least it’s good to see the car still running.
I always had a bit of a yearning to procure “the black car” and apply some improvements unfettered by Col’s basic ( of necessity) mantra of “as cheap as possible”.
Eg - the original beam axle was a bit of water-pipe (why? - “ strong and cheap”) but I’m sure the car could be improved with better materials/ parts chosen for optimum performance rather than just cheapest.
With that wonderful wisdom of hindsight I’ve always thought the car could be significantly improved, even just with some development. We really changed almost nothing from the day it was built, and I was told to just drive around its shortcomings - for example to just cope with the terminal under steer which I hated.
I don’t believe we ever changed anything apart from tyre pressures ( and even rarely changed tyres…)

Sprintcar front axle, cheap and light and 1/4 the weight! 110 wall chrome moly. Or if wide enough a midget axle

The axle in my old Supermodified front axle is even heavier. 2" steam pipe with EH Holden stubs grafted on. It is the original from 1968 and has been bent many times. And is very hard to handle trying to straighten.

One of the other classic mods is using an [old] sprinter axle. Evidently the shocks [old Holden] are now strong enough to control it