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Welsor... a different way of doing things


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#51 TREV

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 14:33

correction of my earlier post.

The car that went to WA for John Hurney was corolla powered not Datsun, It was sent by train to 1 Ayr st Floreat Park WA. By train no less and despite the tag on the steering wheel the freight handlers put the car in 2nd gear. First time out in JH hands the gearbox blew up, yep, lost 2nd gear. JH was not impressed, from memory Col sent him the parts FOC.

A bit of info on the RCN cutting.
the cars Lander, Seldon, Martin (seca)

I remember the PW drive day, lets just say he was no DS!!

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#52 seldo

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 17:06

Originally posted by TREV
Hi David,

you forgot the noodle soup eaten with knife and fork!! as a precursor to the burnt steak

the OR in Welsor came from John taylor. John left the "organisation" after an engine was dropped on his foot. I think Ray was there that night and holding one end of the 4x2 engine hoist.

Do you remember the time you swapped clothes with Colin Bond? and the time you lost your glasses on the bonnet of the car?

From memory there were about 13-14 cars, somewhere I have a list, I also have a lot of drawings and photos.

Car 1 was the Ron Kearns car basically a copy of a nota frame with "wear suspension" front and rear.
Car 2-5 were all wishbone front end - Keith Murray,Ray Kaleda, Peter lander, Ian fields,
Car 2 (??) is currently owned by Jim Foulis in melb, recognised by having cutouts in the frame for doors.
Car 6 was the first Beam axle and affectionately known as the black car. You may remember first time out the car overheated and we cut about 3" off the nose. The word WAGGOT which was below WELSOR got cutoff in the process. Check the RCN article.
Car 7 I think was the first Datsun engine and went to John Hearney in WA at the end of season.
car 8 or 9 was the bob mills car and restored by Barry Thew, then sold to the Hoot Gibson family,recently sold but dont know to whom. 2nd and only other car with Datsun engine.

The orange paint was a visibility thing for photographs, the original source was some "surplus" stock from where Col and I worked and was the corporate colours of a well known trucking company at the time. The colour was slightly changed to protect the innocent.

The "works" cars were mainly Orange save for the black car and the last car which was dark blue.
The first car was a slightly different orange with the addition of a little bit too much red. I still have a rear mudguard off this car.

The last car was the LHD car built in 1977. It was LHD for two reasons- most tracks were anti clockwise, the radiator was in the passenger footwell - opposite side to the exhaust. The engine from memory was a 1300 cross flow ford. Was sold to Kevin ? Peters in QLD. smashed, rebuilt in RHD form without beam axle.

Col and I kept in touch over the years and had many an adventure in far off lands. Our last adventure was in 1998. Col died in May 2000 at age 57 whilst we were planning our next adventure.

He was without doubt a rare man with a dry sense of humour and a cutting wit.
Everything he did he researched thoroughly and did to perfection.
When he died he had a collection of in excess of 6000 books.

It is a small world David, two weeks ago I rang B&C attempting to track you down.

My email adcoteng@pnc.com.au let me know your contact details please.

Trev

Hi Trev! Been a long time!
Yeah, I do remember the soup, and to this day I can't remember anyone who existed for years on a daily diet that was absolutely identical day-in, day-out , year-in, year-out....
I didn't come onto the Welsor scene until after Ron Kearns...in fact courtesy of Ron Kearns who suggested to Col that he give me a drive, and so I was not familiar with John Taylor's input, although I did know that were originally 3 partners/members who formed the WELSOR name - WEar, WiLSon, and aparently TaylOR.
Whilst I'm totally biased, I do think that the "black" car was the first proper Welsor with its design genius, and as construction drew to a conclusion Col asked me what colour I wanted it to be....I said "Black!...because no-one else had a black car..." he was a little incredulous and when I saw his discomfort I added that "it should also have a ....ummm...Yellow stripe"...and so it did.
The first time we raced it at Hume Weir, the damned thing did over-heat terribly, and we cut the nose off to try to get more air through the radiator (unsuccessfully), but it was Dave Booth's mechanic (whose name I sadly cannot recall) who hit the nail on the head. He said - "I think the air is spilling back down the radiator exit on top of the bonnet - why don't you try a spoiler just ahead of that aperture..?" And so we did - he taped a bit of 2" hose across the bonnet just ahead of the radiator exit in the top of the bonnet and ....Voila! all our problems solved... So Col then moulded a lip there to solve the problem, but the cut-off nose remained...
After we'd won the championship, the car was then sold to Baron Revelman who couldn't make it work and so he had the chassis extended by about 4" to give him some more leg-room ( the car was originally literally built around me while I sat on the chassis jig) and at the same time he had the A-series swapped for a Corolla to give him some more power and and less weight, although the car never did any thing spectacular afterwards. Then came the orange Datsun 1200 engined car which was just as successful as the "black" car, although I don't recall what became of it. Bob Mills who was instrumental in assisting in the building of the orange car was paid by Col by being allowed to copy everything he did on the orange car and he effectively made 2 of everything and so accumulated a pile of bits which he later assembled into a complete car some time later. Again, I don't know what happened to that.
I do recall that there was a very practical reason for the LHD car - It was designed around a cross-flow Ford and for some reason in the past he had had to slightly offset the engine to give room for the driver. So, in typically pragmatic Col fashion he just moved the driver to the other side since it didn't really matter where he sat. Problem solved.!
Trev I'm at seldo@optusnet.com.au
Cheers

#53 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 December 2006 - 18:56

Phil Ryall is the name you're searching for...

He's still active, but apparently not getting much done these days.

#54 seldo

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 00:33

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Phil Ryall is the name you're searching for...

He's still active, but apparently not getting much done these days.

Yes - that's he - thanks Ray. It came to me after I'd already posted, but, yes Phil Ryall - bless his cotton socks, saved the day.

#55 Kaleda

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 10:44

Trev

Thanks for the contact see where it leads us

Just looking through his log book do you know how the chassis Numbers were determined as my father thinks he just made it up but we think his car was the second to be build as it was RK2?

#56 TREV

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Posted 25 December 2006 - 13:48

Danny,
No chassis numbers were actually allocated by Col. I seem to recall your dad destroying one car, I have a photo of him crawling out from under it. I seem to recall that another chassis was made for your father. That may explain the RK2.
Apart from the first car I did not have a great deal of involvement until the black car was being built.
In 1999 and early 2000 Col and I made up a list from the records that we both had. It was reasonably accurate but relied on memory for some cars. I cannot find the list at the moment.
#2 was built for Ron Kearns. This car was later driven by Peter Lander. #32 in the RCN article.

If I could work out how to post some Photos !!!

#57 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 December 2006 - 14:13

It's easy, Trev... go to the 'sticky' about it at the top of the page...

As for Ray Collider's write-off, that was a rollover at Amaroo, was it not (P Lander had one too...)?

This raises another of Col's philosophies. The roll bar must go right across the car!

Why? Because a single hoop behind the driver leaves the car prone to digging in instead of continuing to roll, as I recall. Maybe David will correct me on this. The full hoop, on the other hand, encourages the car to keep on rolling, so that the abruptness of the stop is possibly reduced and maybe... just maybe... the car will finish up on its wheels.

#58 Terry Walker

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 13:32

I happen to have the 1980-1986 Wanneroo Park race results sheets at my desk, and the drivers of car 7, the John Hurney Welsor mentioned, for those years are:

1980-1981: Gerrard Drysdale
1982-1983: Ann Middleton
1984 -1986 - not mentioned.

#59 TREV

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 23:29

Hi Ray B,
why is it that photos can only be posted via a website, cant see the point. The photos posted by Danny Kaleda have vanished !!
How is your memory, Which car had something akin to "cakes and pies" "Irelands" on the back.

I have a photo in "the garage" of one car being built with another in front of it but can only see the back and the word "Irelands" I am reasonably sure that it is the first car with the second car being constructed.

The rollover of Ray Kaleda's car was Oran Park or the Farm I dont think it was Amaroo.
Maybe Ray K could confirm this. The photo I have shows no identifying features.

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#60 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 23:44

The reason for that, Trev, is so that the forum server isn't taxed for the bandwidth usage... or something like that. To save money and storage capacity, anyway.

The pies thing probably was the Ron Kearns car. It's a very vague and hazy memory now, but if you want to e.mail the pic to me I'll post it for you.

r@ybell.net

No idea what's happened to that scan from RCN.

#61 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 00:32

Thanks Ray, will do. I have found some photos, will have a look for more that I know I have.

Do you know Will Hagon very well? Col gave him a heap of photos, like all that Col had!, Will Hagon was going to write an article. He never returned the photos, said he "lost" them. Col did not believe the "lost" story and was really pissed off. Col always reckoned he wanted them for his"collection". Perhaps a phone call to WH if you know him.

#62 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 00:35

Terry Walker,

Do you know who has the John Hurney car now. When I find "the list" I could update it.

#63 Terry Walker

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 00:39

Re John Hurney car - no, I don't know where it is now. John Hurney doesn't either. Probably in a shed somewhere gathering dust. I'll keep my ears open while I'm researching "Around the Raceway"; someone may know.

#64 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 00:48

Originally posted by TREV
Thanks Ray, will do. I have found some photos, will have a look for more that I know I have.

Do you know Will Hagon very well? Col gave him a heap of photos, like all that Col had!, Will Hagon was going to write an article. He never returned the photos, said he "lost" them. Col did not believe the "lost" story and was really pissed off. Col always reckoned he wanted them for his"collection". Perhaps a phone call to WH if you know him.


Will probably did lose them...

That's not to say they haven't been found again since, but I can well imagine that someone like him would put them down somewhere and not remember where.

He was at Eastern Creek the other week, and I didn't see him there, but I'll try to track him down and talk to him. Col must have had quite a few pics.

Even if a bunch of them were from Lance Needs...

#65 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 01:48

Ray,
some of them were more than likely from Lance.
I have been putting together a bit of a history to put in the motor racing museum and found this forum by accident.

http://www.my105.com...ied.asp?id=6296

This link is to the Jim Foulis car. I now believe this to be a much modified car number 1 but the nose and rear guards are wrong and not really the same as any other. The car has a full width roll hoop but may have been changed. The engine is 1600 CF but may have been changed.

Car 1 nose was moulded off my Nota clubman, rear guards were moulded off the rear guards of my nota. I still have a front and rear mudguard and a photo of the car at WF. The roll bar on car 1 was a single hoop. The car was fitted with a 1500 non crossflow ford.

The Jim foulis car has cutouts for doors, Long since sheeted over, my recollection is that only car 1 had doors but I dont know. The other thing is the front suspension on car 1 was slightly different.

Somewhere along the way someone may have tried to make it into a "later model"

I been in contact with Jim Foulis.

#66 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 01:53

If it is car 1, it's been modified beyond recognition!

I think it's more likely the Ian Field car... is that possible?

All 1600 cars had to have doors under the regs.

#67 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 02:11

possible but dont thinkso,

Ian fields car was built at the same time as the black car. Ian had the choice of wishbone or beam axle but opted for wishbone. Ian put the car together himself. I dont know what engine he had but by the time he got it going I think the 1600 cars were gone. It was painted a light grassy green, sort of Field green, one might say

Grahame McClintock has a photo of the Fields car

The doors were acrylic sheet above the frame sides ( filling in the cutaway for 1300 cars as per regs.. ) The foulis car actually has a cutout in the frame itself.

Found some more photos, the car in "the garage" being constructed is probably car 2 with car 1 in the background with "ireland" on the rear. The car being constructed has a power brake unit fiitted and no cutouts in the frame for doors.

#68 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 03:21

Ian ran 1600 initially... I'd have to check, but he may have gone to 1300 later...

If he had that choice, I'd be very surprised. He was talking to us about that car being 'in the works' long before we ever saw a beam axle car.

#69 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 08:58

Ray,
Ians chassis was built before the black car but the car was not finished when the second beam axle car was being built or it may have been finished. He was given the option. The frames were basically the same, the bracketry was different of course but could have been easily changed.

I think the chassis for Ians car was built at sefton and as far as I know it was the last of the 5 wishbone cars.

Ian was building the car at the workshop at Sefton, I think he eventually took it home and completed it. Bob Mills was building his car at Sefton, I dont remember exactly but I think they were both there at the same time. Bob Mills also had a mustang there ( converting from LHD I think )

#70 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 10:08

Sefton or Chester Hill?

Thanks for the pics... here they are for all:

Posted Image
Welsor No 1 on the Causeway.

Posted Image
David Seldon at Oran Park in the first beam axle car, the black car.

Posted Image
Keith Murray at Bathurst in the second Welsor.

Posted Image
David Booth, if I recall correctly, at Amaroo Park in the LHD car.

Or is it the Team Solicitor?

#71 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 11:05

Thanks Ray,
You might be correct about David Booth, it is not the Solicitors usual helmet. I never saw this car race I spent most of 76 & 77 rushing in and out of OZ.

Surely you recall the workshop at Sefton, it was closer to Proven Products.

Keith Murray in his SECOND welsor ??

#72 Kaleda

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 11:51

The roll over was at Amaroo Park as I have maybe the same photo's. The car was not a right off and was repaired within a month as he reaced the nexed round of the championship.

I was told he rolled it 7 times and was hit from behind

JUst checking why the pictures disapeared as they are on my server

Danny Kaleda

#73 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 13:04

Originally posted by TREV
.....Surely you recall the workshop at Sefton, it was closer to Proven Products.

Keith Murray in his SECOND welsor?


Wasn't Keith the driver of the first?

The only place I recall was at Arlewis Street. But my memory isn't always what it used to be.

Posted Image

Proof of it all... I simply don't remember Kaleda's rollover at Warwick Farm.

#74 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 13:55

Ray,
Ron Kearns was the driver of the first, Keith may have driven it , I am not sure, but it was not his car. I think Geoff Buckingham bought car 1 off Ron Kearns or the original Welsor Trio not sure of the financial details.

Memory ??? I took the photo!! and could not remember where.

I am surprised you dont remember Sefton. The factory was in Carlingford road just near the railway underpass. Dont you remember when Col sandblasted the datsun 1000 in the car park at the front and everything for 500yards was covered in sand, incl the road.

I also seem to recall Ray K writing a car off ( perhaps not a welsor) and Col built a rolling chassis into which Ray K put the salvaged bits.

When his car first raced it had down draught carbies with a downdraught head, not sure if Holbay or Howard. Later on it appears he ran side draught with the down draught head which is why the carbys were sticking up along way past the bonnet.

#75 TREV

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 13:59

Danny,
check out the photo Ray B has posted for me. I took the photo, could not remember where but Ray has confirmed Warwick farm.

The rollover at Amaroo, possibly another car?? and not a welsor or was a new chassis built after the Warwick Farm incident

#76 Kaleda

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Posted 27 December 2006 - 22:50

Yes it is Warick Farm but don't know the date as I remember being there. Its not in the Log Book that I have maybe it was the RK1 Chassis. My father is in Victoria at the moment and will ask what he remembers

But in the picture is Ray Kaleda, Paul Grimm, Rodger leek,Belinda my cusin standing at the fence,me looking away behind her and another of our staff.

The damage was done by the armco fence and ray got a cut on the shoulder

#77 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 00:46

Originally posted by TREV
Ray,
Ron Kearns was the driver of the first, Keith may have driven it , I am not sure, but it was not his car. I think Geoff Buckingham bought car 1 off Ron Kearns or the original Welsor Trio not sure of the financial details.

Memory ??? I took the photo!! and could not remember where.

I am surprised you dont remember Sefton. The factory was in Carlingford road just near the railway underpass. Dont you remember when Col sandblasted the datsun 1000 in the car park at the front and everything for 500yards was covered in sand, incl the road.

I also seem to recall Ray K writing a car off ( perhaps not a welsor) and Col built a rolling chassis into which Ray K put the salvaged bits.

When his car first raced it had down draught carbies with a downdraught head, not sure if Holbay or Howard. Later on it appears he ran side draught with the down draught head which is why the carbys were sticking up along way past the bonnet.


I never saw Col sandblast anything, but I feel sure I must have been to the workshop once or twice.

From memory, the second chassis for Peter Lander was put together that night (at the start of this thread) in 1973 at Arlewis Street. I was at RCN by then, though I went back to PP in August, but rarely doing deliveries. Shortly after that came the Precision Dampers period, which ended in October 1975.

Ray Kaleda's previous car was the Lotus that went to... hmmm... John Horswell got it, but from... better look that up. He had a very good Corolla engine in it... I remember now, Paul Pressler. I think that was the way it all went.

Ray did have more than one shunt, I'm sure. David might recall this (because of the parallels...), one might have been with Moffat or some Torana Sports Sedan in a free for all private practice at either Oran Pk or Amaroo. But the pic above is definitely Warwick Farm.

I've edited the pic of Keith at Bathurst, and sorry, I forgot all about Ron Kearns.


Danny... your pics aren't showing... how about you repost them using Imageshack or Tinypic? And thanks for the info on that pic.

#78 TREV

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 13:22

Ray,
I found the list of cars. This was put together by Col, myself and Barry Thew (restored the bob mills car). This was done about the end 98 beginning 99. When DS gets back from holidays he may well be able to shed some light on some of the uncertainties. Ian Field may also be able to assist.

Car 1-1969- 1100 Ford, wishbone front end, 1500 Ford May 1970 Log Book- N1751
Originally built by Col Wear, Keith Wilson, John Taylor at Arlewis st.
I believe that Col drove the car first and then Ron Kearns. Sold to Geoff Buckingham end 1971. Rolf Vine had the car circa 1992.

Car 2 - 1970-1500 Ford, wishbone front end, built at arlewis st
Built for Ron Kearns, and then Peter Lander, driven also by Keith Murray (DS may also have had a drive). Car written off by Peter Lander, new chassis made fitted with 1600 crossflow Ford.

Car 3- 1971 - 1600 Ford, down draught head,wishbone front end, Arlewis St
Built for Ray Kaleda. Car written off by Ray Kaleda, new chassis made
Then Rod Swadling, A Fisher, tony Skinner, believed wrecked

Car 4-1972-1600 Ford,wishbone front end, Arlewis st Log Book N 2745 then V 9057
Originally built for John Maroulis then owned by Keith Murray.
Darrel eastlake, M Hopcroft, G beaumont, J McConnell,R Cosser,J Colquhoon,F Brewster,Jim Foulis
(needs verification, awaiting info from Foulis.

Car 5-1972-Volvo 122-1600,wishbone front end, Arlewis st ???
Originally commissioned by British and Continental cars, Never finished, believed owned by Peter Waggot. may have been after the Field car

Car 6-1972-1540 Ford,wishbone front end, Arlewis st / Sefton, Log Book N2715
Built For Ian Field who assembled the car himself at sefton.
G Lee, G Hunt (driven by Helen), W Lee, S Bannister (still current in Qld).

Car 7- 1972- The fabulous black car, 1298 BMC, Beam Axle, Arlewis St
Built For David Seldon to drive.
Baron Revelman, (fitted corolla) then driven by Richard Walton who is now in Hong Kong.

Car 8-1973-Datsun 1300, Beam Axle, Sefton, Log Book, N6131
Built For David Seldon to drive.
Al Palmer,W Gates, A skinner,B Kerrigan (fitted corolla)

Car 9-1973-Datsun 1300, Beam Axle, Sefton, Log Book Q981
Assembled by Bob Mills,
P Bremner,KWebber,Barry Thew(restored), Michael Gibson, recently sold circa Oct 06

Car 10-1974-Corolla 1300,Beam axle, sefton
Built for peter Lander
John Hurney, Dave Currell,Gerard Drysdale, Ann Middleton, Also driven by Rob Elliot (Haggis man in 74-75?)

Car 11 - 1975-Corolla 1300 , Beam Axle, Sefton Log Book N2358
Originally built for Peter Lander
K Peters , B Murdock,M Shaw,R Liddle,C Cooper

Car 12-1976-Ford 1300 CF, Beam axle, LHD, Sefton
Originally built for peter Lander
Brett Peters, Arthur Barch, (current) Smashed, Converted to RHD and wishbone front end

total 12 cars, 14 chassis

If any body can provide further, correcting or confirming information it would be appreciated.

The list was compiled by three grey headed oldies relying on memory and some photos so its accuracy is not guaranteed but it is reasonably close.

(edited with info from Ray B 29-12-06)

#79 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 13:33

I wouldn't agree that the black car was built at Sefton...

It was running before Lander crashed the ex-Murray car, the replacement for that car was built at Arlewis Street. No question.

I never heard of the Maroulis car at all! And seeing as I bought the Hustler from Maroulis (through Col) I would have thought I would have.

Do you recall when Maroulis had virtually everyone in the Sydney motor racing industry lined up to give evidence in a court case?

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#80 TREV

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 23:06

Thanks Ray,

I have added corrections and revised some wording. Please dont take what I have posted as gospel, Col could not remember some things and in particular who the car was sold to after the orig owner driver and it was pieced together from current and past owners (as at Nov 98) and a lot of phone calls.
Col did have records of type of chassis and engine etc and I have this in excell format.
A big problem at the time was that Col had no photos.

Col was funny about history at that time, when a car was sold or passed on he had no further interest in it and did not really care where they went. He did not even remember the Hurney car and the Datsun Sports sedan was sold to "some guy in Wollongong" He regretted this later on as he tried to track down the datsun to get the engine for the motor racing museum. He eventually pieced together enough bits to make a static display engine. Fotunately I had kept the damaged alloy block from which the Datsun TC4V engine was made up, he was going to throw it out.

Maroulis, this came from Col, I believe Maroulis never drove it and that it was sold to Murray before it was finished. This is not the car that Peter Lander crashed.

I recall Maroulis having the hustler and that you purchased it. Did Maroulis purchased it from Lander (Red # SC1) or was it the ex Oxley car (met blue # SC2)

I vaguely remember Maroulis and the court case but never knew the details, it was not something that I would have been terribly interested in at the time. Was welsor involved in the matter?

The replacement Lander chassis must have been the last chassis built at Arlewis street. What I dont recall is when Col left Highgate and opened the factory at Sefton.

David S hopefully can fill in some more gaps. If you are in contact with Ian Field perhaps you may ask him what he recalls.

Cheers

#81 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 December 2006 - 23:21

I haven't seen or spoken to Fieldy in many years... sorry...

We worked together prior to 1970, but after that I only saw him at race meetings. I don't think he even attended Clubman Association meetings.

Both the Hustler Clubmans were SC1s... that was the type number, not the chassis number. Bill Nibbs (Campbelltown?) bought the Lander car, Maroulis had the Oxley car, I sold it on to Joe Ius, who did a major chassis rejig and was installing a Fiat 128 engine before he lost interest. I had a phone call from someone who bought it from him, once, then Tony Simmons got it back... and the other week I saw it again for the first time in 30 years:

Posted Image

The Datsun 1000 was sold to Wayne Myer, who installed a 240Z engine (recall that this was the gearbox Col used...). Is the static display engine the one now at Alstonville at Peter Waggott's place?

The court case was against Phil Ward. Dave Mawer was among the witnesses called... he reckoned that Maroulis got virtually everyone in Sydney who did work on race cars together for that case, probably, Dave reasoned, to show them all that they should treat their clients with respect.

#82 TREV

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 01:01

Ray,
The bloke who phoned you was probably John Carter ( ex Wakefield Park owner) He rebuilt the front of the chassis that was damaged. I knew John and had crewed for him at meetings with his Elfin streamliner. I went to look at the car whilst he was rebuilding it in his shed at Colo Vale.

It is now owned by Lawrie Baker. The black Nota clubman in the marquee beside Lawrie at Eastern Creek is my car that I have had since 1966.

The engine at Peter Waggotts place is probably the static one. It was not at Cols place when I helped Mary sort things out after Col died, and I never thought to ask Mary what happened to it.
Peter helped Col with sourcing bits and I think he still had some of the casting patterns.

Thanks for the Wayne Myer info, I will add it to the Datsun SS story. I will post it shortly. Plus some info an a rear engined welsor that never saw the light of day, the chassis of which is in my shed.

#83 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 01:36

Yes, the Waggott display engine is purely static...

Even porous castings they had lying around have now been repaired and turned into useful parts by the enterprising Lionel Ayers..

As for the Hustler... what Joe did was redesign the front, not damage it. He felt that the triagulation could be better and set out to prove it. It's a shame he never completed the rebuild of the car.

Looking forward to finding out about the rear engined car.

#84 TREV

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 06:09

The rear engine car story.

The chassis was built around the time of or maybe even earlier than the Datsun 1000 at Arlewis St, not Sefton. The first time I saw it was when Col asked me to draw a body for it, which I did. I don’t have the final ¼ scale body drawing, that was given to Col but I probably have some of the rough hand sketches that Col and I did when deciding a shape. At the time I thought nothing of why it was at Arlewis St. The chassis was “work in progress” and not completed when I saw it. Some time later Col told me that he shelved the project due to cost of body moulds.

I never gave it another thought but when helping Mary after Col died the chassis was found on top of the mezzanine floor in the shed at Buladelah covered in dust and boxes of stuff. The chassis by this time was basically complete with ind front and rear suspension (Mawer uprights at rear?). Mounted in the frame was a VW gearbox and in the cockpit a Fiat twin cam block.

I collected up all the bits and brought them to my place where it still resides and assumed that the Fiat was the intended engine.

Reading this post and the mention of the S7 Honda engine brought memories. I remember standing outside the dyno room at Waggotts with Col and Merv looking at the engine and discussing the reverse rotation issue. Cols thoughts were to put a set of spur gears on the diff nose piece. Merv’s advice was to change the rotation of the engine. This was probably around 73 ? when the S7 engined clubman was “in planning”

Here is the interesting part, I had noticed that the top tubes of the chassis beside the engine bay were bolt in and wondered why when there was a fiat engine sitting in the cockpit of the chassis when found at Buladelah.

Looking at the gearbox and the chassis this day the VW box was not inverted.

A reverse rotation engine and a non inverted VW box and presto

I wonder............

#85 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 06:52

You'll have to finish it, Trev...

Especially now you're not racing any more and retired (or is it semi-retired?) and rich enough to get the body done.

By the way, have you checked out the thread on the Lotus 58 and its beam axle?

#86 Pat Clarke

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 08:25

Trev (and Ray)
There were two reasons to invert the old VW transaxle. One was a simple way to get the correct drive rotation, but equally important was to lower the engine crankline.
When the box is inverted the imput shaft is moved to below hub height, thefore permitting the engine to be mounted several inches lower.
I believe it is possible to modify some VW boxes to invert the crown wheel and pinion inside the transmission case.
Surely this would be a better solution?
I am sure some of the older off road buggies using an inboard engine with a VW transaxle needed to keep the ground clearance, and so inverted the CWP, so it must be possible with some transmissions.
Regards
Pat

#87 Kaleda

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 09:13

Posted Image

Col Wear from Car Racing News July 1972

#88 Kaleda

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 09:36

Posted Image

#89 TREV

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 01:54

Pat,
I am aware of what you say, however, the Honda S7 is a 1300 cc aircooled engine that was very very light and very shallow being dry sumped from factory. Without inverting the transaxle it would have suited the S7 reverse rotation and you had to know Col to undertsand, he was a great believer in using standard unmodified bits. The fact that the engine was slightly higher or, if he lowered the engine as far as possible, the drive shafts were angled would not have worried Col. The overall package of lightness and simplicity was the measure of the success that he enjoyed.

#90 TREV

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 02:14

Ray,
Semi retired it is but very busy, and no I have not given up racing, I had a long break because of work but in the last couple of years I have done 2 targa tas and run the Nota in 8 or 9 historic meets.

With todays 3D computer programs and CNC machinery it is cheaper to build a one off FRP body than it was in the 70's. The 1/4 scale drawings had all the profile sections, I wish I still had them.
I spoke to Mary and she does not recall seeing them in the cleanup.

As far as finishing it ...... well it was on the list but an ordinary TC engine was nothing special anybody got a S7 honda engine.

I will get the chassis down, it is hanging in the roof of my shed and send some photos

#91 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 02:37

If you make that your project, Trev... I'll make a project of finding a Coupe 7 or Coupe 9 engine for you...

Deal?

#92 TREV

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 02:49

Danny,
Good stuff, any chance you could post me a photo copies.

Did you speak to Brian Rawlings

#93 TREV

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 02:52

Ray,
Deal it is, Was the 9 the 1300 engine or ??

I shall prepare a submission to CAMS historic committee, no point doing it unless they will accept as an historic.

#94 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 03:26

Just build it... you can run under AASA and at Second Gear meetings until CAMS get used the idea...

Coupe 7 and Coupe 9 were both 1300cc. But one might have been more advantageous than the other.

http://www.hondabeat.com/history.php (then click on 'classic Hondas')

Do you know where Rawlo is? At Grose Vale?

#95 Kaleda

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 04:24

Trev
No not yet as I have been in and out with family and renovations and you said I need some time to talk.
I am scanning and sorting out my fathers photo's and also reading all the Racing car news mags as I have a lot of issues from those years. There is also write ups of the Welsor Drivers

And yes I can send photo copies or email to you what ever you need as there is lots of articles from all years during the clubman racing days.

I'd aslo like to know if you have any more of Ray Kaleda

Danny

#96 Kaleda

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 04:26

To all
If you do any gatherings or functions let me know and I will drag my father out as well

Danny

#97 TREV

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 04:34

Ray,

True, but I have the original Tony Simmons U2 to finish first.

The CAMS process is not all that difficult just time consuming.


Rawlo is still at Grose Vale, I see him quite often, I am at Kurrajong not far from him, 4572 1861 he would be pleased to hear fom you.

#98 275 GTB-4

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 10:09

Originally posted by Pat Clarke
Trev (and Ray)
There were two reasons to invert the old VW transaxle. One was a simple way to get the correct drive rotation, but equally important was to lower the engine crankline.
When the box is inverted the imput shaft is moved to below hub height, thefore permitting the engine to be mounted several inches lower.
I believe it is possible to modify some VW boxes to invert the crown wheel and pinion inside the transmission case.
Surely this would be a better solution?
I am sure some of the older off road buggies using an inboard engine with a VW transaxle needed to keep the ground clearance, and so inverted the CWP, so it must be possible with some transmissions.
Regards
Pat


from a VW box expert....

Mick, it was real common to invert the VW box to change rotation, was done in all the old mid engined racecars. A Hewland 600 box was little more than an inverted 40HP VW case with better gear ratios and an engineered shifter mechanism.

Formula Vees didn't invert the case though, they swapped the crown wheel to the other side of case.

Kev

#99 TREV

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Posted 30 December 2006 - 23:36

Danny,
I do have at least one photo of your dad upside down at the farm + one at O Park. I may have some others but not sure.

You could also browse autopics.com.au

Here are some links that i found some time ago

http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no

http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no

http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no

I am not so sure about the accuracy of some of the photos on Autopic, eg it shows Ray Hangers Nota and calls it a Lotus 7.

There is also some photos of John Maroulis in a Lotus 7, dont know whether or not it is your dads car.

What Photos I have I will reprint from the negatives for you

I would prefer photo copies of RCN articles if that is convenient. Scanned copies of welsor related photos would be good.

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#100 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 00:36

It also says that Maroulis in the Dipper at Bathurst is at the 'Farm...

Here's your pic of the original Welsor at Lakeside.

Posted Image

And the pic of the engine in that car:

Posted Image