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Welsor... a different way of doing things


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#101 Kaleda

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 11:55

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#102 Kaleda

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 11:56

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#103 Kaleda

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 11:57

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#104 seldo

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 09:23

Well - that's all been quite fascinating reading.
I'll just correct a few little errors though as I recall it....
When I first came on the Welsor scene Keith Murray, Ray Kaleder, Peter Lander and Ron Kearns were already at it, and I suspect also Ken Peters in Qld. I never drove the ford-engined cars at all - only the the "black" "A" series car, the 2nd beam-axle car - the "orange" Datsun engined car and the vicious little Datsun Waggott FVA sports sedan. It was sold eventually as correctly mentioned to Wayne Meyers who put a 240Z engine in it and Col quickly lost interest since it had been "spoiled" in his eyes - I think they also diced the beam-axle too. The car mentioned as being commissioned by B&C was in fact I think commissioned by Ron Kearns who suggested that if Col could somehow incorporate some Volvo bits in it he had a bit of a wink-and-a-nod from Tony Lister at B&C and "might" get some support. The intention was that I would drive it I seem to remember, but then I think Col had second thoughts about the viability of the whole idea and shelved it in order to do the "black" car. It was built at Arlewis St in its entirety as Nev Winley and I spent most nights till almost midnight assisting. A few other snippets - Peter Lander had a roll at Amaroo I think it was although I don't recall if the car was repaired or not - I think not. I'm also fairly sure the second beam-car - the "orange" Datsun engined car was also built at Arlewis St and I know Bob Mills' car was also begun there, but was moved to the Sefton Brakes factory almost opposite Bond Roll Bars from memory. This was a business that Nev and I helped Col into in the hope that he may move onto bigger and better things but it didn't last all that long. Mills' car was almost finished there as was his Mustang conversion and his moving-van conversion to mobile-home for his trip North. I think he finally took all the bits with him inside the truck and moved on...
The Honda-engined thing was an idea that we all tossed around for ages - I seem to recall that the S7 was 1300cc and the S9 was 1500cc and for some reason Col was not happy that he could successfully overcome the reverse-rotation thing. As well, I think Merv Waggott cast some expensive doubts on the efficacy of the whole thing because I think it had a segmented roller-bearing crank that he decided was too difficult/fragile/expensive to play with. All my good photos funnily enough also were lost by Will Hagon who was supposedly trying to put some sort of sponsorship deal together for us, and all the others my first wife consigned to the tip after we parted.... I'm only going from memory and it's been 35 years....

#105 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 13:28

I think we're both wrong with the spelling of the Wollongong Datsun buyer, David...

Meyer... there is a second 'e', there's no 's'.

Both Honda engines had the same capacity, but there was a carburetion difference. There may have been other differences and it wouldn't surprise me that the Coupe 7 engine might have been better for modifying to race.

The team solicitor's crash was at Amaroo, he went off to the right after Mazda House corner and rolled almost all the way to Honda. That car was rebuilt, but with the new chassis that was the subject of my comment at the beginning of this thread.

And now you mention Bob Mills' moving van, I do seem to recall some detail about it. I remember talking to him about his intended trip north with the chassis and all on board. Strangely enough, I met up with him again on the Sunshine Coast when I was visiting my cousin, who actually had dealings with him.

And the 'Sefton Brakes' name brings back more retention, but I'm not quite there yet.

#106 ian senior

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 14:46

Originally posted by Ray Bell

But the final reason for not going ahead was that the CAMS banned air cooled engines in Clubmans. Simple, isn't it?


Excuse an intrusion from a Pom, but I've been following this with interest. Why did CAMS ban air-cooled engines? Was it because they feared the complicated and (presumably expensive to buy and maintain) Honda motors would spoil things in what was supposed to cheap(ish) racing?

#107 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 15:24

Ian, you are delving into a subject dear to my heart here...

The CAMS had a very strange way of looking at their Clubman formula. It was introduced by John Pryce, a Pom who came here and wanted to go mud-plugging. The rules for the Clubman formula were written by or for him, essentially, with the wording 'suited to a wide range of motor sporting events' included.

And those words were more important to the CAMS than most things.

While Pryce was around, the CAMS never lost sight of the fact that they intended these cars to be multi-purpose things. Something that was never going to happen once the Lotus 7 was superseded by something lower, lighter and more raceworthy.

So the formula became a plaything of pressure groups. Changes weren't made often, but they were made. Some strange things precipitated those changes and the changes themselves often didn't reflect what was intended.

One example is the brake caliper rule.

Given that 'all mechanical components shall come from a CAMS-recognised production car', surely a brake caliper is a brake caliper?

No... not really. In the typical fashion of a Melbourne person with a vested interest, Brian Shead went to the CAMS with his brake caliper problem.

"I build new racing cars, and I equip them with new parts," began his argument. "I need to use the right brake calipers, and Triumph Spitfire calipers are the ones that fill the bill. But when I go to the local Leyland dealer, they want $148 for a caliper."

The ground is laid. He continues, "Now, for my Mk 7 racing cars I use the equivalent racing caliper, a nice two-piston alloy unit from Girlock, and I buy that from Girlock Racing for just $96. It does exactly the same job, is a nicer unit and it costs less. Can you rewrite the rules so I can use this instead?"

And so they did... "Any 2-piston brake caliper may be used" was the new wording.

An innocuous change? Not really... and particularly seeing as the premise on which it was introduced was patently false.

Those Spitfire calipers might well have been priced at $148 at a Leyland dealer, but I suspect they could have been bought for $70 at Girlock, and anyone with a trade order could have got 30% discount from the Leyland dealer anyway. It was all a sham.

And it innocently made some cars illegal overnight. How?

'Any 2-piston caliper' meant that sliding head single piston calipers, a few of which were in use, were no longer legal. They were cheap, they were available, they were from production cars, but they were now illegal. Same goes for 3-piston calipers (don't laugh, they exist, and they were on cars that might have become donors for a cheap Clubman... Volvo 122, Fiat 1500) and 4-piston calipers (Lancia and Citroen), though they might have been overkill on a 9cwt car.

There was a similar thing happened with Corolla gear ratios. It was a very practical modification that should have been allowed for any make of gearbox, but it wasn't allowed as a modification, it was allowed on the basis that it approximated ratios that were in the paperwork but unobtainable or very expensive. More sham.

Corolla cylinder heads. This one's a darling... the rules allow modifications to the original cylinder heads and blocks by removal of metal only. No welding, no epoxy filling. Just machining or grinding or drilling.

"Please, Mr CAMS, look at our predicament," it began. "We don't like to machine all the face of the head away to get the compression up, so we mill out each chamber to allow the pistons to protrude from the block. This leaves a stronger head."

Okay... "But we're having problems with some of the older heads that the water jacket is tending to corrode through into the combustion chamber over on this side, see here?"

So the CAMS allowed Corolla heads to be welded up when modified by that means. No other head has ever been allowed to be altered in that way in the fifty years the CAMS has been writing rules about modifying by 'removal of metal only'!

The came the push to have wings. You must understand that Clubmans in Australia were 1300cc at this time, so with 140hp or so how much wing could you pull? "We want wings, we want wings!" came the cry after certain people introduced 'experts' to the Association members who told them how great their cars would look with wings and how fast they'd be. They got wings.

Radiators... do you want more?

So somewhere in all of that confusion someone came up with the idea that it was necessary to ban air cooled engines. I do think it was because there was a suggestion that a super-light car could be built (or was about to be built) with a VW engine. It certainly wasn't the Honda engine that sparked it.

The VW engine, of course, might not have been all that powerful. But it would have been very good for packaging once you determined how to get the driver's feet in place, it would have been able to be built very small and light.

Of course, all of this is past history. Today there's a totally different outlook in Clubmans. It's fractured beyond belief, with road going cars running against race cars, with 'spec' Suzuki twin cam engines allowed to compete directly against modified single cam engines, with motorcycle powered cars, with all manner of things loaded in there together.

That's the practice. I don't know what the rules actually are these days.

But I do know that for the time, the departure from the basics as they were was the wrong way to go. Even if the CAMS thought that a race car might go mud-plugging.

#108 cosworth bdg

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 03:22

Ray, the examples you have just given is typical of the way CAMS has managed most formula's over the last 50 yrs or so.........

#109 2Bob

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 04:23

"do the "black" car. It was built at Arlewis St in its entirety as Nev Winley and I spent most nights till almost midnight assisting. "


Is the Nev Winley mentioned here any relation to Bob Winley, trombone player and Citroen fanatic? Had some sort of racing car business at Amaroo, possibly connected with Brian Rawlings?

I last saw him at Hume Weir, Boxing Day meeting 1968 I think:

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#110 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 04:42

Last saw him in 1968? That's a long time ago...

I bumped into him at Eastern Creek, but most of our conversation was about his daugher and my nephew being romantically involved. And how he and my brother innocently discovered that the love interests of their children were the children of people they knew.

Funny stuff... but I don't think Nev and Bob are related.

Oh, yeah... if it was 1968, it might be news to you that Bob's a family man now. Nice pics, by the way. We need more of your pics.

#111 2Bob

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 05:04

Ray,

I find it hard to think of Bob as a family man!!!!! I guess he would probably say the same about me though - mind you I am only married, no offspring.

I think Bob Winley worked for ABC TV when I first met him - early 60s. We occasionaly went to a jazz club or two together. I navigated for him in his trusty Citroen - well he trusted it I don't think I did! Pretty crazy driver too I thought!

I moved to Tasmania and then Adelaide so lost touch with Bob except for the Christmas / New Year 1968.

I saw Bob at Hume Weir and then he came to Phillip Island for the race the following weekend and over to Adelaide to visit but I don't think he was competing there. (I was pit-crew for Jim Doig, he was racing the original BBM, but without the rotary valve head). We tried to make the Hume Weir / Phillip Island races at that time of the year for 2 or 3 years as part of our holidays.

Currently quite a few of my photos from that time are with the latest owner of the BBM (which he is restoring), might try and post a few older ones though.

#112 TREV

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:14

Bob Winley and Nev Winley are not related.

Nev Winley was (is) an accountant I think, DS may know. Nev was a VW driver and a mate of Cols as far as I recall.

Bob Winley did work for the ABC in TV production area. He is fit and well as of 10 days ago.

#113 TREV

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:45

Cosworth, should that not be mismanaged !!

Ray,
Radiators,
The LHD car above had the radiator in the footwell of the passenger compartment.
CAMS banned that.

One of the Welsors had a "windscreen" made from a piece of acrylic 2" long and 1/4 " square,
well didnt that cause a fuss, but the manual had no minimum dimensions for a windscreen, CAMS fixed that!!

The mudguards on the car #63 in the RCN article were considered aerodynamic devices yet the leading car #32 (another welsor) had the extended guards for some time prior.

The clubman formula no longer exists, it was considered an entry level to motor sport. My Clubman cost $1000 new in 1966 without engine and gearbox but otherwise complete.

In relative terms I would suggest that the current sports 1300 is considerably more.

The "replacement" and I use the term loosely, is hardly an entry level. You can run a clubman car with supposedly "equalising" regs but they are hopelesly outclassed.

Costs have escalated, numbers are down tells the story

#114 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:09

The issue that upsets me, Trev, is that they have taken away the restriction to cheap and easy to obtain parts, enabling people to spend up big on specialised bits that have minute advantages.

All it has achieved has been to raise the price. And to increase the gap between the front and rear of the field... if there was a field.

By the way, didn't the passenger qualify for a heater?

#115 2Bob

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:40

Hi Ray,

Have to agree with your general comments about clubbies. The only way to go these days is to run in historic and of course that raises other problems... About to get my ASP 340 onto the track again soon but not 100% sure about its' legibility for diiferent groups. Wish that the original rules still applied because they would still make for good racing and allow for cheap (relatively) interesting interpretation. Jeez, must be getting REALLy old I suppose...

#116 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:54

ASP 340C?

Give me a call when you need a hand with the testing...

#117 TREV

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 22:27

Ray,

No longer is it a class for the innovative use of production car components.

You cant build low budget one off competitive cars anymore. The likes of the turnham, HRB,ventura,echidna,schazum and the Alex Boyle car are just are not around.

Sure there was some moneyed cars at the time but the racing was always close with good fields

#118 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 22:44

Indeed, Trev...

We've seen many egos go out of control. That's what's happened to the class.

#119 TREV

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 23:14

2 bob,

There are no dramas with historic Clubman rules. If the car conforms to the clubman regs of the period there is no issue. You will however need some form of documented proof of how the car was run in the period and in particular the appearance.

Some "enterprising" owners have tried to "modernise" cars. Eg, if a car never ran front guards turning with the wheels then it cannot be changed from fixed guards even if it was allowed in the period.

You cannot run a different engine from what the car had in the period, ie you cant change from a corolla to golf. You cant change from 1300 - 1600 etc.

You cannot change the brakes. You cannot change the wheel widths and wheels must be of the period.

You cant run a different gearbox or number of speeds, however, ratios are free.

Photographs of the car in the period are basically essential. Photocopies of the original log book speeds up the Cof D process.

FYI the periods are

M- 1961-1965
O- 1966-1969
Q- 1970-1976
R- 1977 and later

There are some interesting cars in the wings at the moment
Graham McClintock has his Hargill back,
Les Puklowski has his Echidna back,
The Ex Bill Dean U2 has been found by an old racer!!
John Sexton has his U2 Haggis back (has had for a while)

If you need some guidance when preparing your C of D application just ask.

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#120 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 23:24

Originally posted by TREV
.....You cant run a different gearbox or number of speeds, however, ratios are free.....


There you go... you can do the Holinger conversion even without CAMS' approval now!

.....Graeme McClintock has his Hargal back.....


In a manner of speaking...

The chassis was rejigged after his big one at Lakeside... what was that, 1981? It's a different car now. Unless, of course, he has the original chassis back and can get Harry to repair that.

Trev... what was the name of the builder of the Rodents? It's on the tip of my tongue, but I simply can't get it off! He lived out Smithfield way, though that might have been later. *edit* it was Alex Burnham, wasn't it?

#121 2Bob

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 23:29

My ASP 340C and Brian Randal's Norax, late 1980s.

The ASP had had major body modifications when I got it after original owner Dave Walsh had a major accident in July 1979. I think he rebuilt it and then Dick Clutterbuck had it for 2 years in this form before I bought and ran it until end of 1989. It has since been 'undergoing restoration' by Mark Peacock (works on Jim Doigs ASP and also built and mechanics Bob Middleton's Cat Truck). Rory Thompson, original ASP designer, is building new ASPs now and has just taken a body mold off Guy Chick's car (see below) so I will be going back to original style body 'soon'. Sorry Ray, don't need a test driver, at least not if I can get through the CAMS medical!

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Guy Chick's very nice example of an ASP 340C.

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#122 TREV

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 00:16

Ray,
I am not totally familiar with the "holinger" modification. I would suggest that if the car did not run this in the period, you could not do it now. What you cant do is go from 4 speed to 5 speed but they do allow you to vary the ratios. "too difficult to police" is the given reason but I suspect business aquaintances .............

Grahams car has, and always did have, a VOLVO gearbox.

I was always under the impression that The Hargall (dont tell HG about the I ..damm keyboard!) chassis was repaired, I will ask Graham. BTW what caused the accident - the front lower rear wishbone pickup was below the chassis floor and the rod end ground away on the track.

Harry G not long ago refurbished the chassis for Graham......but powder coated.......

Alex Burnham it was... I almost got the name right as above "Alex Boyle" but could not think of the car

#123 TREV

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 00:33

2 bob,

Guy Chick photo- Mallala easter 06 by any chance, hope your car is quicker!!

He was a half second slower than my Nota, but to be fair he did need new tyres.

Three clubmans at that meet were nose to tail albeit at the back of the field but good fun nevertheless.

#124 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 00:33

Oh dear... Trev, don't make me do this!

The Hargal, as built originally, had the BMC engine and a BMC box with close ratios. As you did when you had a BMC box.

But because the engine was so far back, using a strongly constructed oil tank ("We wanted to give Harry some experience in monocoque construction," Dave Mawer) as the front engine mount, the gearbox was shortened in the tail.

When it became prudent to instal a Corolla engine, it was easy enough to adapt the engine to the existing gearbox so it remained there. This was still in the David Medley days, I think the BMC engine moved across to John Medley's Nota.

When Graeme Baird bought it he kept having gearbox problems. As you might if you're a bit competitive and maybe not totally mechanically sympathetic and the compliance has all gone because the output shaft has been shortened.

He skulked around and found that the Volvo box was nice and short. Ostensibly he found a rally box with nice close ratios. Actually he sent the gearset to Holinger for some cutting and shutting.

What they do is grind off the input gears, weld on rings and cut a new ratio from the input shaft to the layshaft that raises the ratio of all the indirects. Then they do the same with third gear to lower it, so it's neatly placed between second and fourth. It was a simple $150 job those days. It should have been allowed for everyone, but only Corollas were allowed to have it.

So that's how and when the Hargal got a Volvo box.

Yes, I knew about the rose joint wearing away. and I know the car grew some wheelbase when the all new chassis was built. I believe there was also a scuffle about ownership of the wreck at some time much later on, David Medley and someone else, IIRC.

And yes, you can do it now... those ratio changes are available to anyone, even if the car has super wide ratios originally. For the reasons explained. Same as steel cranks and Carrillos and forged pistons and titanium valves and... well, as you know, it never ends!

They spend much more on them today than they did when they were actually racing!

#125 TREV

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 01:09

I am pleased you did!!

I was only vaguely aware of its previous history, what I meant was that when Graham had it , it had a VOLVO box.

Can you put some dates to the history please adcoteng@pnc.com.au

What they do is grind off the input gears, weld on rings and cut a new ratio from the input shaft to the layshaft that raises the ratio of all the indirects. Then they do the same with third gear to lower it, so it's neatly placed between second and fourth. It was a simple $150 job those days. It should have been allowed for everyone, but only Corollas were allowed to have it.

This is common place today , read also Needham

I have Simmos original U2- Butler gear set, shortened output shaft.... mmmmmmmmm 1965


And I have just gone to a lot of trouble, and more expense than a one off steel crank, to find an original NOS crank for a Clubman engine.


They spend much more on them today than they did when they were actually racing!

and magnesium wheels and magnesium bellhousings and lighter and lower

and suprise suprise they are much quicker than they were in their day

I must be doing something wrong, my car with its 39 year old engine is as slow as it was in 1967 with near identical times!!

#126 2Bob

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 01:54

2bob,

Guy Chick photo- Mallala easter 06 by any chance, hope your car is quicker!!

He was a half second slower than my Nota, but to be fair he did need new tyres.

Three clubmans at that meet were nose to tail albeit at the back of the field but good fun nevertheless.



Yes mallala Easter - I was pit crew for Jim Doig (as usual the last x years). And yes he does need new tyres (still I think) but he also, as he says, is just out to enjoy himself - good luck to him.

I hope to be quicker - did 1:17s back in the 1980s - course I was younger then too.

#127 seldo

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:39

Originally posted by TREV
Bob Winley and Nev Winley are not related.

Nev Winley was (is) an accountant I think, DS may know. Nev was a VW driver and a mate of Cols as far as I recall.

Bob Winley did work for the ABC in TV production area. He is fit and well as of 10 days ago.

Correct - Nev was an accountant and now lives in Perth - We still keep in regular contact and he is no relation to Bob Winley as far as I know.

#128 seldo

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:50

Originally posted by Ray Bell
[B
......................Radiators... do you want more?

So somewhere in all of that confusion someone came up with the idea that it was necessary to ban air cooled engines. I do think it was because there was a suggestion that a super-light car could be built (or was about to be built) with a VW engine. It certainly wasn't the Honda engine that sparked it.

The VW engine, of course, might not have been all that powerful. But it would have been very good for packaging once you determined how to get the driver's feet in place, it would have been able to be built very small and light.

.......... [/B]

The VW engine idea was germinated by the aborted Honda idea and Col had become sufficiently keen on the weight-saving advantages of air-cooled as well as the added advantage of the low c-of-g from the flat-four. The power disadvantage he'd planned to tackle by making a new camshaft and having the engine breathe through the exhaust ports (as I recall) which apparently gave a much better potential induction tract. Col never stopped planning and scheming, but was renowned for his ... ummm... lack of tolerance of fools and officials...so he was not good at negotiating his path through the maze of officialdom...

#129 seldo

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 00:40

Originally posted by TREV
Ray,
I found the list of cars. This was put together by Col, myself and Barry Thew (restored the bob mills car). This was done about the end 98 beginning 99. When DS gets back from holidays he may well be able to shed some light on some of the uncertainties. Ian Field may also be able to assist.

Car 1-1969- 1100 Ford, wishbone front end, 1500 Ford May 1970 Log Book- N1751
Originally built by Col Wear, Keith Wilson, John Taylor at Arlewis st.
I believe that Col drove the car first and then Ron Kearns. Sold to Geoff Buckingham end 1971. Rolf Vine had the car circa 1992.

Car 2 - 1970-1500 Ford, wishbone front end, built at arlewis st
Built for Ron Kearns, and then Peter Lander, driven also by Keith Murray (DS may also have had a drive). Car written off by Peter Lander, new chassis made fitted with 1600 crossflow Ford.

Car 3- 1971 - 1600 Ford, down draught head,wishbone front end, Arlewis St
Built for Ray Kaleda. Car written off by Ray Kaleda, new chassis made
Then Rod Swadling, A Fisher, tony Skinner, believed wrecked

Car 4-1972-1600 Ford,wishbone front end, Arlewis st Log Book N 2745 then V 9057
Originally built for John Maroulis then owned by Keith Murray.
Darrel eastlake, M Hopcroft, G beaumont, J McConnell,R Cosser,J Colquhoon,F Brewster,Jim Foulis
(needs verification, awaiting info from Foulis.

Car 5-1972-Volvo 122-1600,wishbone front end, Arlewis st ???
Originally commissioned by British and Continental cars, Never finished, believed owned by Peter Waggot. may have been after the Field car

Car 6-1972-1540 Ford,wishbone front end, Arlewis st / Sefton, Log Book N2715
Built For Ian Field who assembled the car himself at sefton.
G Lee, G Hunt (driven by Helen), W Lee, S Bannister (still current in Qld).

Car 7- 1972- The fabulous black car, 1298 BMC, Beam Axle, Arlewis St
Built For David Seldon to drive.
Baron Revelman, (fitted corolla) then driven by Richard Walton who is now in Hong Kong.

Car 8-1973-Datsun 1300, Beam Axle, Sefton, Log Book, N6131
Built For David Seldon to drive.
Al Palmer,W Gates, A skinner,B Kerrigan (fitted corolla)

Car 9-1973-Datsun 1300, Beam Axle, Sefton, Log Book Q981
Assembled by Bob Mills,
P Bremner,KWebber,Barry Thew(restored), Michael Gibson, recently sold circa Oct 06

Car 10-1974-Corolla 1300,Beam axle, sefton
Built for peter Lander
John Hurney, Dave Currell,Gerard Drysdale, Ann Middleton, Also driven by Rob Elliot (Haggis man in 74-75?)

Car 11 - 1975-Corolla 1300 , Beam Axle, Sefton Log Book N2358
Originally built for Peter Lander
K Peters , B Murdock,M Shaw,R Liddle,C Cooper

Car 12-1976-Ford 1300 CF, Beam axle, LHD, Sefton
Originally built for peter Lander
Brett Peters, Arthur Barch, (current) Smashed, Converted to RHD and wishbone front end

total 12 cars, 14 chassis

If any body can provide further, correcting or confirming information it would be appreciated.

The list was compiled by three grey headed oldies relying on memory and some photos so its accuracy is not guaranteed but it is reasonably close.

(edited with info from Ray B 29-12-06)

I checked with Nev Winley and he agrees with this and added:

"Cant add too much to story but Trevor's final car list sounds pretty right , definately an extra chassis for Peter after Amaroo , well remember all of us being at Chester Hill on the Monday night pulling everything off the wreck and throwing them in the corner and then the following week starting to bolt them onto the new chassis so Peter could race the following weekend at Oran Park I think , usual chaos ."
Thanks Nev.

#130 TREV

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 11:31

Hi DS,

Pass on my regards to Neville please.

So Nev is in Perth and there is a Welsor in Perth , whereabouts unknown, perhaps he could do the sherlock holmes bit?

good to see that Nev agrees with "the list"

from seldo

so Peter could race the following weekend at Oran Park I think , usual chaos ."



I have a photo of the car which may be its first meet after rebuild. the car has no numbers or signwriting and people working on it. I will ask ray b to post.

#131 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 12:17

Done, Trev...

Posted Image

#132 seldo

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 13:42

Whilst I don't know the fate of the original "Black car", I do know that Revelman both turfed the "A" series in favour of a Corolla and also lengthened the chassis by about 4" to give him more leg-room, since, as previously mentioned, the car was literally built around me sitting on the chassis-jig. It never really achieved much success after this although I must agree with the intent of the mods. Last heard of, it was for sale through Harry Galloway...

#133 TREV

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 22:19

I did speak to Harry Galloway re the "black car" it was sold to someone in NSW about 6 years ago.

Harry does not recall who purchased it. Harry also did some work on the Ian Field car "in the '80s" when it was owned by a G Lee. Harry may have a photo of it at that time

Thanks for posting the picture Ray

#134 john medley

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:12

What a great thread. Thank you gentlemen for all the information and for the entertainment.

The original Welsor, owned long ago by Rolf Vine and sold to fellow Queenslander Kerry Finn, was bought some years ago by my 2006 partner in crime Mike Bass, and he and his wife Tanya have been racing it at GEAR and Second GEAR meetings for several years. He hopes to run it at Phillip Island(and other locations) in 2007

#135 TREV

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 10:06

John M

'Tis a small world

Current photo please ??

Entries for PI close 31 January

#136 275 GTB-4

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:04

from another place....absolutely no offence to either of the protagonists, no hidden agenda, etc etc ad nauseum :)

one night in the invitation sports race, Lynn Brown was following Ray Kaleda's Clubman sports for a few laps.

They both disapeared into the darkness of Robin Orlando. Ray went missing, and Lynn emerged with a spare wheel imprint in his grill. Lynn was later excluded from the results by the stewards.

#137 RobK

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 09:41

Hello all.

It's been fascinating for me to read this thread as I'm the new owner of the Jim Foulis car (#4 - originally built for John Maroulis).

The car has been beautifully maintained by Jim and Ian Moyes - it really is a credit to them - and I'm looking forward to some track time with the car at upcoming Historic meetings.

I'd love to chat with anyone who has been associated with the car in any of its past lives - it would be great to learn more of its history (maybe someone has some old photos?)

We are aiming to be at Sandown Historics in November so please come & say hi if you're in attendance.

Cheers !

#138 Welsor

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 03:00

Hi All,
I was stunned when this thread turned up with a google search.
I own Ray Kaleda'a Welsor. RK2.
It is currently being restored but is in fairly good condition.
I have the second logbook for the car but would love more information.
Especially to get in touch with Danny Kaleda and any photos I can find.

David Chambers

#139 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 03:59

Hi there David...

Shame there's no Amaroo for you to take it back to its origins... or Warwick Farm. Will you have it ready before Oran Park closes?

As for Danny Kaleda, go back to his post and see if you can e.mail him. If not, then PM him.

Even Trev hasn't posted in ages, just Seldo and I.

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#140 Welsor

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 05:54

Thanks for the reply.
I don't know when it will be ready. Probably another year or so.
When is oran park closing?
I have gotten in touch with Danny so will probably exchange lots of photos.
It is a pity that his photos don't show in this thread.
I am very interested in any extra information about the car I can find.
Particulary the original engine and running gear as it had a datsun engine in it when I got it.
I am in the process of builing a new ford engine for it to go back to original but never knew about the downdraught head until I read TREV's list.
That helps explain what I thought was an extreme engine angle from the photo's in the log book.

David

#141 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 06:21

Talk to Tony Simmons about the heads...

He did some of them (for his and Tony Oxley's cars...) and there were a few others around. There might well be a modified head lying about somewhere.

As for the photos, you will be getting a little red 'x' if you're using Explorer, or a fractured square if using Firefox. Right click and click on 'view image' and they should come up. I just looked at them and they were there.

Oran Park's closure is scheduled for late this year, AFAIK.

#142 Richard Davis

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 08:55

The 3rd Welsor Cooper S was driven by Caroline O'Shanesy & David Booth.

#143 JJW

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 10:04

I was referred to this thread as my father & I own a Welsor Clubman. It is the ex-Ian Field car - chassis number six according to the info here (and we thought it was number eight!). We have logbooked it as a Historic Group R car as it is in the form as it was when it was re-bodied by Harry Galloway in the early 80s as a Sports 1300 (hence falls into a later class - which has it racing against Sports 2000s and Ralt RT4s ): ).

We bought the car from Steven Bannister. Here is a link to some photos on Steve's website from when he raced it at Lakeside in the early 90's.

http://www.chequered....au/clubman.htm

From what we have been able to ascertain (and has been confirmed by info in this thread), it was built as a 1600 and subsequently converted to 1300 at a later stage (not sure if this was before being rebodied or not). It still has the cut-outs for the 'doors' from the old-1600 formula (this can be seen clearly in one of Steve's photos) and we even have an old nose for it with provision for headlights (must have been in the rules at some stage!). It still runs all the same major components as when built (as we understand) - ford kent crossflow, escort rocket box and morris minor axle - with the only major exception being a new set of wheels, as the old 'WEAR' wheels were starting to be a bit of a concern and have been consigned to a life as 'shed ornaments'. I'd post some pictures, but am not sure how to run things on this BB just yet :confused:

We run the car in the Queensland Super Sprint Series and have done Speed on Tweed, Leyburn Sprints and the Historic races in it. Dad raced it last weekend at the Historic Meeting at Morgan Park. The car is an absolute dream to drive and has required only very minimal sorting. I think this is partly because it hasn't been 'stuffed' about with. It still surprises much more modern cars with its speed (even some of the Sports 2000 cars!). Dad and I have both won the Qld Super Sprint Series in it.

I'd love to get some more info on the car and its history. We only have some very grainy old pictures from magazines of what it looked like in its original form, so would be great if anybody had some old photos.

When we were looking at clubmans to buy we also inspected the Arthur Bach car at his house at Caboolture. Arthur had a lot of details on its history and indicated that it was the last car built. It was subsequently bought by Graham Meade, but he sold it on after a couple of years. No idea where it is now. Something I can confirm however is that it still had the beam axle when Graham ran it in the Queensland Super Sprint Series a couple of years back, but was running a nissan motor and gearbox and was RHD. It had clearly been updated a lot over the years and thus was a long way off being historically 'correct'.

Another Welsor in Queensland is owned and raced by Charlie Fakes - but don't know what one that is (or what configuration it runs).

It is fantastic that so much history has been unearthed through this thread. It is great that these cars are coming back out of the woodwork and being restored for historic racing. This is a class, and an era, of motorsport in Australia that is fondly recalled by a lot of people and it would be fantastic to see a full grid of these cars in the historic meetings.

regards
Jason Wishart

#144 JJW

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 10:07

Here is a link to the digital realism website which has some photos of Dad in the Welsor at the No Frills Historic meeting from earlier this year.

http://www.digitalre...gal_1/index.htm


A bit off-topic, but by god that ex-Terry Hook Lola is an awesome car. Was a bit surreal for Dad to grid up beside it in a Clubman though!

Jason

#145 275 GTB-4

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 11:06

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Done, Trev...

Posted Image


I hesitate to ask, but...anybody know what Thomsons Pant(s? y?) Works was all about :)

#146 seldo

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 11:09

Originally posted by JJW
Here is a link to the digital realism website which has some photos of Dad in the Welsor at the No Frills Historic meeting from earlier this year.

http://www.digitalre...gal_1/index.htm


A bit off-topic, but by god that ex-Terry Hook Lola is an awesome car. Was a bit surreal for Dad to grid up beside it in a Clubman though!

Jason

Great to hear that another one is still up and running.
Cheers
David

#147 Catalina Park

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 11:16

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


I hesitate to ask, but...anybody know what Thomsons Pant(s? y?) Works was all about :)

Thompsons Panel Works. It is (was?) a panel beaters in Katoomba. I would guess that it is Damon Beck's Rennmax in the background.

#148 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 13:10

Originally posted by JJW
I was referred to this thread as my father & I own a Welsor Clubman. It is the ex-Ian Field car - chassis number six according to the info here (and we thought it was number eight!). We have logbooked it as a Historic Group R car as it is in the form as it was when it was re-bodied by Harry Galloway in the early 80s as a Sports 1300 (hence falls into a later class - which has it racing against Sports 2000s and Ralt RT4s


First, have you located Fieldy? I'd love to get in touch with him againj...

.....We bought the car from Steven Bannister. Here is a link to some photos on Steve's website from when he raced it at Lakeside in the early 90's.

http://www.chequered....au/clubman.htm

From what we have been able to ascertain (and has been confirmed by info in this thread), it was built as a 1600 and subsequently converted to 1300 at a later stage (not sure if this was before being rebodied or not). It still has the cut-outs for the 'doors' from the old-1600 formula (this can be seen clearly in one of Steve's photos) and we even have an old nose for it with provision for headlights (must have been in the rules at some stage!). It still runs all the same major components as when built (as we understand) - ford kent crossflow, escort rocket box and morris minor axle - with the only major exception being a new set of wheels, as the old 'WEAR' wheels were starting to be a bit of a concern and have been consigned to a life as 'shed ornaments'. I'd post some pictures, but am not sure how to run things on this BB just yet :confused:

We run the car in the Queensland Super Sprint Series and have done Speed on Tweed, Leyburn Sprints and the Historic races in it. Dad raced it last weekend at the Historic Meeting at Morgan Park. The car is an absolute dream to drive and has required only very minimal sorting. I think this is partly because it hasn't been 'stuffed' about with. It still surprises much more modern cars with its speed (even some of the Sports 2000 cars!). Dad and I have both won the Qld Super Sprint Series in it.....


The car was a 1600 originally, though I'm not sure if it was a crossflow, a straight enlarged 1500 or the latter with downdraught ports cut into its head, as some of these cars had. The car became a 1300 before any rebodying was done to it.

The rear axle is Major, not Minor, and if I recall conversations with Colin correctly, it would be a Series II Major axle to get the wider bearing nut. Correct installation of this includes having no tab washer in there, clean thoroughly around the threads, put Loctite on the thread and tighten well. Col's assertion that the tab washer, necessarily made of a fairly soft steel, flogs and allows the nut to come loose is a fair one to me.

I don't know what you're talking about there with the headlights, but send me pics and I'll have a look at them. I don't think it would have had an Escort box, rather a Cortina GT box.

.....I'd love to get some more info on the car and its history. We only have some very grainy old pictures from magazines of what it looked like in its original form, so would be great if anybody had some old photos.

When we were looking at clubmans to buy we also inspected the Arthur Bach car at his house at Caboolture. Arthur had a lot of details on its history and indicated that it was the last car built. It was subsequently bought by Graham Meade, but he sold it on after a couple of years. No idea where it is now. Something I can confirm however is that it still had the beam axle when Graham ran it in the Queensland Super Sprint Series a couple of years back, but was running a nissan motor and gearbox and was RHD. It had clearly been updated a lot over the years and thus was a long way off being historically 'correct'.

Another Welsor in Queensland is owned and raced by Charlie Fakes - but don't know what one that is (or what configuration it runs).

It is fantastic that so much history has been unearthed through this thread. It is great that these cars are coming back out of the woodwork and being restored for historic racing. This is a class, and an era, of motorsport in Australia that is fondly recalled by a lot of people and it would be fantastic to see a full grid of these cars in the historic meetings.


Well, you're learning about the pure performance these simple and lightweight cars could put up against much more complex machinery. Keep up the good work.

#149 2Bob

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 22:04

It is fantastic that so much history has been unearthed through this thread. It is great that these cars are coming back out of the woodwork and being restored for historic racing. This is a class, and an era, of motorsport in Australia that is fondly recalled by a lot of people and it would be fantastic to see a full grid of these cars in the historic meetings.


Yes indeed. My first race in 19 years coming up in 2 weeks in my ASP 340 which I have owned for 23 years..... How about Easter Historics at Mallala? I reckon if we could get 20 clubbies then we would get at least one race to ourselves as well as the normal group Q and group R races. Any interest out there?

#150 275 GTB-4

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:39

The roll over was at Amaroo Park as I have maybe the same photo's. The car was not a right off and was repaired within a month as he reaced the nexed round of the championship.

I was told he rolled it 7 times and was hit from behind

JUst checking why the pictures disapeared as they are on my server

Danny Kaleda


Danny...just read the RCN report Apr 73...Ray rolled several times but emerged unscathed, little car damage....Seldo dicing with Bruce in the Moss Angliss Milano GT2, touched, Seldo moved over and clipped Ray.

Seldo...where was Mother Tucker Resturant again?? Gawd! how long have the Yanks been using the other Mother term?? since the 1970s??