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Welsor... a different way of doing things


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#251 lyntonh

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:32

An interesting photo Brendon, since that isn't the original nose for the car, nor the guards.



Also note the extra member in the roll bar....

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#252 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:18

That was required by the new regulations...

My car had to have a complete re-jig of rollover protection, though it was probably the most protective 'cage' out there.

#253 Haggis 2

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:53

Also note the extra member in the roll bar....


Not sure about when the roll bar got the diagonal added, but the nose was damaged and not worth repairing so a Haggis nose was adapted to fit.... In fact it almost went straight on. The guards were changed to make the car "look more modern" (?). It originally (when John first ran it) had guards like those in your pic. I'm pretty sure it is your old car David. Check the bonnet shape, mirror mounts, headlights etc. And it had a Waggot Datsun engine and the beam axle.
_______________
Brendon Hagarty

Edited by Haggis 2, 29 June 2011 - 10:01.


#254 seldo

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 12:37

Not sure about when the roll bar got the diagonal added, but the nose was damaged and not worth repairing so a Haggis nose was adapted to fit.... In fact it almost went straight on. The guards were changed to make the car "look more modern" (?). It originally (when John first ran it) had guards like those in your pic. I'm pretty sure it is your old car David. Check the bonnet shape, mirror mounts, headlights etc. And it had a Waggot Datsun engine and the beam axle.
_______________
Brendon Hagarty

Oh, Brendon, I have no doubt it is my old Chassis #8 (?), but it has had a bit of a massage over the years. It was a pretty amazing car as I recall it during my time. I used to regularly rev it to well over 9500rpm ( the tacho stopped at that) and I basically would rev it until it stopped going faster.... Col would ask "What revs did you use..?" and my reply was usually " Dunno - the tacho only goes to 9500, and I just keep going until it starts to miss or runs out of steam......."
I must admit - a far better thing than the venerable "A"series in the previous car which needed a serious rebuild every 3/4 races. This thing was bullet-proof and we'd pull it down after 6 meetings, make some very seriously concerned noises like "Hmmm", Hrmmm, and Hermmm".....and put it back together again...
We basically raced it every second weekend year-in, year-out, with never a mechanical failure. Truly amazing! :) After almost 40 years, I'm not sure if it was this car or the previous "black car" - chassis #7, but we won the year's championship with 69 out of a possible 72 points, so it was quite effective...

Edited by seldo, 29 June 2011 - 12:42.


#255 cheapracer

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:45

Fascinating stuff Mark. How's it progressing?


Sorry guys, didn't realize anyone was interested!

I want to thank this thread as beams have always fasinated me and now as my car is getting closer to being finalized and nearer to production I have ended up with 2 very unusual beams at each end. If I had not seen this thread it may not have happened.

The rear is similar to Seldo's car's front beam actually (no steering!) simplistically having 2 single pivot side longitudal links that connect to a DeDion tube that's split in the middle with a bearing to absorb the obvious twist during chassis roll. I have replaced the 'Bex link' with a Panhard rod for the moment for when I start testing I can more quickly adjust the roll center height and put the Bex Link back on when that has been optimised.

The front, the world's first semi independent multilink beam, is like nothing that has ever been seen on a car in history (I believe) and it's a bit hard to explain so you may have to wait for some pictures in the next few weeks.

Thanks for your interest.

Edited by cheapracer, 29 June 2011 - 13:46.


#256 cheapracer

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:01

Again sorry, I didn't check back on this thread to see these ........

Hello all
What's happened?
last post was about ingenious transverse link


Fascinating spur gears/ axle action
How does this work?


Those pics of the beam front and rear with the spur gears lateral are very interesting. What is the advantage over a watts link, roll centre ?




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The advantage over a Watts is height and packaging as well as left and right side packaging is the same, a Watts can not be. The converging lines of the lateral links is where your roll center is (the blue 'X')and as you can see raising the outer links could easily put the RC below ground level if you desired or above your roofline.

The 2 gears roll/mesh with each other as the links change length when the axle goes up and down (example; one gear turns clockwise the other anti) but if you try to move the axle sideways then the gears have to rotate in the same direction (example; turning left makes them want to both rotate clockwise) which they can not because they are meshed.




#257 seldo

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:54

Again sorry, I didn't check back on this thread to see these ........








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The advantage over a Watts is height and packaging as well as left and right side packaging is the same, a Watts can not be. The converging lines of the lateral links is where your roll center is (the blue 'X')and as you can see raising the outer links could easily put the RC below ground level if you desired or above your roofline.

The 2 gears roll/mesh with each other as the links change length when the axle goes up and down (example; one gear turns clockwise the other anti) but if you try to move the axle sideways then the gears have to rotate in the same direction (example; turning left makes them want to both rotate clockwise) which they can not because they are meshed.

Very clever...I like :)

#258 seldo

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 04:53

In 1975 at Wanneroo with John Hurney.

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I was looking at this shot the other night and wondering "Why on earth didn't we run a cold-air box?".

#259 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 04:57

Because it wouldn't fit on Waggott's dyno?

Or maybe because Col needed to borrow something Mary had in the kitchen for a mold and she wouldn't let him?

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#260 seldo

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 05:22

Because it wouldn't fit on Waggott's dyno?

Or maybe because Col needed to borrow something Mary had in the kitchen for a mold and she wouldn't let him?

Hehe - maybe Ray. I do recall that originally we had the whole carbs in the air-stream but the Scruts made us enclose them for some ridiculous reason - I'm sure it was safety or some such non-sense, but I still don't know why we didn't take the opportunity to do a cold-air box. Oh well...shrugs

Edited by seldo, 01 July 2011 - 05:23.


#261 timbo

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 20:08

Spotted at Oran Park quite a few years ago. I'm not sure of the driver.
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#262 gouldo

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 10:34

Spotted at Oran Park quite a few years ago. I'm not sure of the driver.
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That is Bruce Bloodworth in 88, and maybe, Col Memery behind him. Not 100% sure on the 2nd car, but 100% on the welsor. Probably the 1988 Clubman 'Nationals.' the nationals that were never recognised as nationals....

#263 seldo

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 14:07

That is Bruce Bloodworth in 88, and maybe, Col Memery behind him. Not 100% sure on the 2nd car, but 100% on the welsor. Probably the 1988 Clubman 'Nationals.' the nationals that were never recognised as nationals....

It's past my time - I have no idea, but it's a beam-axle car and obviously late in the period as evidenced by the "aero" rear guards. I wonder which chassis # this is ?

Edited by seldo, 04 July 2011 - 14:08.


#264 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 15:09

Originally posted by gouldo
.....Probably the 1988 Clubman 'Nationals.' the nationals that were never recognised as nationals...


Yeah, well... clearly we need to go into this again...

Formula Vee and Clubmans were specifically not given a 'National Title' by the CAMS. It was written into the rules in the Manual.

The reason for this was to keep the costs down. Without a National Championship to chase, it was expected that competitors would go to another class if they wanted to be 'Australian Champion Driver' of something or other, while competitors in the class would simply compete at race meetings as they could afford to do.

Then in the late sixties or early seventies, the Vee Associations dreamed up the idea of a 'National Challenge' and that was run at Hume Weir. It moved on to Phillip Island and was a regular annual event - and a good one - there until the circuit closed. Then it moved from state to state.

The Clubmans took a leaf out of this book and ran their own 'Nationals' (the word 'challenge' had been forgotten by now...) rotating from state to state as promoters would allow.

So these 'Nationals' or 'National Challenges' were never intended to be recognised, they were an internal event concocted by the various Associations and not sanctioned as such by the CAMS.

#265 timbo

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 20:01

I've managed to unearth a Baron Revelman photo as well. Possibly at the same meeting as the Bruce Bloodworth photo was taken.

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#266 seldo

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 01:32

I've managed to unearth a Baron Revelman photo as well. Possibly at the same meeting as the Bruce Bloodworth photo was taken.

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Aha. Thanks - you can see that Revelman had the scuttle raised to clear his legs as well as the colour change from black to orange, and an engine change from A series to Corolla, plus some subtle changes to front guards, mirrors and head-lights.

Edited by seldo, 05 July 2011 - 01:33.


#267 gouldo

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 06:57

Yeah, well... clearly we need to go into this again...

Formula Vee and Clubmans were specifically not given a 'National Title' by the CAMS. It was written into the rules in the Manual.

The reason for this was to keep the costs down. Without a National Championship to chase, it was expected that competitors would go to another class if they wanted to be 'Australian Champion Driver' of something or other, while competitors in the class would simply compete at race meetings as they could afford to do.

Then in the late sixties or early seventies, the Vee Associations dreamed up the idea of a 'National Challenge' and that was run at Hume Weir. It moved on to Phillip Island and was a regular annual event - and a good one - there until the circuit closed. Then it moved from state to state.

The Clubmans took a leaf out of this book and ran their own 'Nationals' (the word 'challenge' had been forgotten by now...) rotating from state to state as promoters would allow.

So these 'Nationals' or 'National Challenges' were never intended to be recognised, they were an internal event concocted by the various Associations and not sanctioned as such by the CAMS.



Ray, it was a tongue in cheek comment mate. I have seen the posts on the 'clubman nationals,' and although they were probably never actually recognised as nationals as such, and I know you have a long memory with clubbies, the clubbie boys did run there own nationals so to speak.



#268 gouldo

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 07:00

It's past my time - I have no idea, but it's a beam-axle car and obviously late in the period as evidenced by the "aero" rear guards. I wonder which chassis # this is ?


seldo,

spoke to Bruce's son this afternoon about the car. Definately built in 1974, possibly chassis 12.

Not certain about the cahssis number, but thats what it is believed to be.

#269 john medley

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 07:27

12 is lightyears too early. My FJ chassis for example, a 1960 car, is chassis 22

#270 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 07:55

Originally posted by john medley
12 is light years too early. My FJ chassis for example, a 1960 car, is chassis 22.


Are you meaning to imply, John, that this is a Nota with 'WELSOR' painted across the nose?

#271 ccooperaus

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:35

looks just like a short Falcon MK2 http://www.1950sspecials.com/home.htm

It is a KM. Made by Keith Morrison. He built one with wire wheels and a hilman engine I believe. Mine was built by Geoff bernhagen and the Brewer biothers, all of Brisbane. Keith sold body only, 3 sizes of body lenth, 100,200 and 300, with the extra length from cockpit forwards, or with chassis as well made of square tubing with donor front end welded on and 4 bar link rear. Yep 4 bar. Panard rod, 1 lower trailing link one side and upper and lower trailig on the other. They were built in Newcastle or Sydney, Strathfield Garage. Should get out my notes I made when I talked with Keith years ago. Feeling too lazy though. Cheers Charlie

#272 timbo

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:17

A different way of doing things probably sums up this Welsor spotted in the motor racing classifieds. Its probably not as the maker intended.

http://www.my105.com/4094




#273 seldo

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 01:42

A different way of doing things probably sums up this Welsor spotted in the motor racing classifieds. Its probably not as the maker intended.

http://www.my105.com/4094

Timbo - I'm afraid that has about as much Welsor in it as my flat-spotted left Croc

#274 JJW

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:04

picture link

this is the ex-Arthur Bach car that Graham Meade re-bodied/wing'd. Not sure who owns it now.

Jason

#275 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:58

Looking at clubbies, clubbie style sports cars with all those bars over them. Really they have lost the plot as they look terrible. I saw a couple at Mallala on Sunday at a Sprint and they look more like some odd bod speedway car.

#276 seldo

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 13:37

Looking at clubbies, clubbie style sports cars with all those bars over them. Really they have lost the plot as they look terrible. I saw a couple at Mallala on Sunday at a Sprint and they look more like some odd bod speedway car.

Thank them - C..... Against Motor Sport... I think the first word is "Chaps"...

#277 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 22:45

David, I think you mean those chaps who live in glass houses?

That bunch of eccentrics running around in circles knocking hell out of their followers?









Blame Kevin Carrad for me knowing that one.

#278 JJW

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 00:35

Safety standards have improved - it is frightening how little crash protection there is in the older cars.

I don't think its fair to blame CAMs for reflecting community standards (ie even if you'd prefer to risk a grisly death for the sake of a prettier car, the impacts for the sport more generally mean that higher standards now need to apply for the sake of all participants). Be thankful that these are not being applied retrospectively (for now anyhow...).

Edited by JJW, 23 September 2011 - 00:35.


#279 275 GTB-4

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:57

Don't know why...but this wheel seems to belong in this thread...can anyone confirm the make???

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#280 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 12:30

They're not Welsor...

A lot of different people made those composite wheels in the sixties and seventies. The Welsor wheels had a similar four 'spoke' design, but they were based on the Simmons wheels and therefore had even spacing of the ribbing that forms the 'spokes'. They also had 'W E A R' cast into them quite boldly.

#281 2Bob

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 20:33

Don't know why...but this wheel seems to belong in this thread...can anyone confirm the make???


That's an ASP wheel. I don't know who made them originally but Brian Randell (sp?), of Norax fame, makes them still.

#282 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 22:23

ASP...

That's pretty diametrically opposed to Welsor then. I wonder if anyone (Lynton?) has a pic of a Welsor wheel?

#283 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 22:46

Safety standards have improved - it is frightening how little crash protection there is in the older cars.

I don't think its fair to blame CAMs for reflecting community standards (ie even if you'd prefer to risk a grisly death for the sake of a prettier car, the impacts for the sport more generally mean that higher standards now need to apply for the sake of all participants). Be thankful that these are not being applied retrospectively (for now anyhow...).

A properly built half cage with diagonal and rear/ front supports should be all that is required. In fact I feel all that the CAMS manual requires.
Whats next open wheelers with hi bar sprintcar style cages. Or Clubbies with hibar cages.

#284 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 23:15

Don't know why...but this wheel seems to belong in this thread...can anyone confirm the make???

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That wheel comes in a 5 stud, 5 spoke design too in 13". It was a popular wheel on Torana Sports Sedans in the 70s.
And as Bob says Brian Randall still makes them.



















































































































#285 lyntonh

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:06

It's on a Welsor...is it a Welsor wheel?

Oh, and do you notice the cigarette butts lying on the ground around the car?
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And you're able to see it because it's after Dave Seldon got caught up in Ray Kaleda's prang at Amaroo...

Edited by lyntonh, 30 December 2011 - 04:09.


#286 seldo

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:01

It's on a Welsor...is it a Welsor wheel?

Oh, and do you notice the cigarette butts lying on the ground around the car?
Posted Image

And you're able to see it because it's after Dave Seldon got caught up in Ray Kaleda's prang at Amaroo...

You're the man Lynton! Thanks :) But no, it's not a so-called Welsor wheel despite being on my car, and I'm pretty sure those depicted are those we always ran on the rear, probably because Col, always very frugal, decided to use them since he already had them... The Welsor wheel is very similar to the orange coloured one shown in 275gtb4's post, but the edge-rib on the spokes is not as prominent especially near the rim-end of the spokes, and each of the spokes has alternatively a W, E, A and R cast into the shown face.
Was I involved in a prang with Kaleda? I don't recall... Mind you, Ray usually managed a prang with someone...;)

#287 eldougo

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:23

I always like a Hamburger at the Canteen on race weekend they made good eating. :blush: :love:

-----------------------------------------------
Good one DAVE.
Was I involved in a prang with Kaleda? I don't recall... Mind you, Ray usually managed a prang with someone...; :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by eldougo, 30 December 2011 - 05:26.


#288 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:14

Ray Collider? :lol:

#289 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:59

That's a Simmons wheel...

Col simply filled in between the alternate spokes and had the letters in there. I'm fairly sure Fieldy had some at one stage or another, they would have been on the Datsun-engined car too.

#290 lyntonh

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:32

That's a Simmons wheel...

Col simply filled in between the alternate spokes and had the letters in there. I'm fairly sure Fieldy had some at one stage or another, they would have been on the Datsun-engined car too.


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A couple of very early photos of Ian Field's car..... he ran those wheels for 1973, and probably longer, but I moved interstate at the end of '73.

#291 seldo

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:56

Posted Image

Posted Image
A couple of very early photos of Ian Field's car..... he ran those wheels for 1973, and probably longer, but I moved interstate at the end of '73.

Thanks again Lynton, but no - those are are also not "Welsor" wheels, unless they are disguised by the highlighted painting...:)

#292 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 21:05

Those are definitely Mawers...

Col's wheels didn't turn up till well after '73.

#293 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 21:56

Dave Mawer's wheels for sure.


Edited by GMACKIE, 30 December 2011 - 22:00.


#294 gouldo

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:04

Dave Mawer's wheels for sure.


Agree.

Dad had a set of those that sat in the loungeroom for about 6 years. Mum put a slab of timber on the top, used them as coffee tables & ended up dusting them.



#295 GMACKIE

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 04:17

My set were put to much better use.....I put a VW Beetle between them, and turned it into a Sports Sedan. :eek:

#296 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 23:49

Those Mawers look differnt painted like that. They came in a 5 spoke design too and were quite common on Sports Sedans and often on Tourers too. More common in the Eastern states. In SA we had ASP wheels

#297 john medley

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 04:48

Small piece of trivia: my brother David was seeking lightweight/ non steel wheels for his new clubman designed by Harry Galloway. Dave Mawer said he could do those, but needed a patternmaker, so I introduced them to my Rugby mate pattern maker Dave Jackson. We met at Eastwood Rugby Club over a few beers, Dave Jackson redesigned Dave Mawer's wheel drawings but did the patterns His Way.... so ..... Mawer Mags.

#298 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:24

Small piece of trivia: my brother David was seeking lightweight/ non steel wheels for his new clubman designed by Harry Galloway. Dave Mawer said he could do those, but needed a patternmaker, so I introduced them to my Rugby mate pattern maker Dave Jackson. We met at Eastwood Rugby Club over a few beers, Dave Jackson redesigned Dave Mawer's wheel drawings but did the patterns His Way.... so ..... Mawer Mags.


The first set of which went on to Barry Bassingthwaite's MG Midget and the second set on my Turner.

#299 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:29

But did they finish the next race in that order?

And did poor Gronky miss out?

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#300 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 20:04

But did they finish the next race in that order?

And did poor Gronky miss out?

No and yes, Ray!!