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Welsor... a different way of doing things


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#301 eldougo

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 00:14

Speaking of David Medley (with specs) here with Tony Caldersmith ,at the party a few days ago.

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Edited by eldougo, 02 January 2012 - 19:50.


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#302 JJW

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 05:17

We have a set of W.E.A.R. wheels that came on our Welsor. They are now shed ornaments given the risk issues of racing on 40 year old lightweight rims! Will see if I can find or take a picture.

#303 JJW

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 05:20

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A couple of very early photos of Ian Field's car..... he ran those wheels for 1973, and probably longer, but I moved interstate at the end of '73.


wow - that's my car (I think, it looks very different with the Galloway body on it) - have you got any more of these?

#304 Haggis 2

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:50

Ray, and others,

This is a picture of a Welsor wheel off my Haggis U2.

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________________
Brendon Hagarty

#305 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 10:15

What we need now is a Welsor wheel on a Welsor.

#306 seldo

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 14:20

What we need now is a Welsor wheel on a Welsor.

Here's my old "black car" in its current guise
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Edited by seldo, 03 January 2012 - 14:22.


#307 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 18:47

No WEAR wheels and a lot of extra pipes...

Has it had an engine transplant?

#308 seldo

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 23:49

No WEAR wheels and a lot of extra pipes...

Has it had an engine transplant?

Where to start? Yes - it's now Corolla engine/gearbox instead of the "A" series, has a raised cowl on the scuttle (formerly flat-topped), modern shocks and springs vs the original Spax, alloy nose, stalk-mounted mirrors gone, mandatory headlights gone, triple-braced roll-bar, different front guards, and, and... Apart from that it's unchanged.... :rolleyes:

Edited by seldo, 04 January 2012 - 09:11.


#309 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 01:13

That's right!

Col had a thing about fibreglass noses and so on. He reckoned them easier to make, certainly easier to repair, than aluminium, didn't he?

I note it still has the original Simmons wheels...

#310 seldo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 01:40

That's right!

Col had a thing about fibreglass noses and so on. He reckoned them easier to make, certainly easier to repair, than aluminium, didn't he?

I note it still has the original Simmons wheels...

He had good cause to worry about the easy repair... lucky we always had a plenty of race-tape to glue the joints/fractures back together, whereas ally stays bent.
And wheels - as far as I recall we only ever bent one half-rim, so being the originals, those have done a mile or two...

#311 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 08:59

Where to start? Yes - it's now Corolla powered instead of the "A" series, has a raised cowl on the scuttle (formerly flat-topped), modern shocks and springs vs the original Spax, alloy nose, stalk-mounted mirrors gone, mandatory headlights gone, triple-braced roll-bar, different front guards, and, and... Apart from that it's unchanged.... :rolleyes:

It appears closer to the spec of Baron Revelman raced it.

#312 seldo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:09

It appears closer to the spec of Baron Revelman raced it.

Unless I'm mistaken, it's exactly as he raced it, bar tyres, which are currently Avons

#313 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:26

Unless I'm mistaken, it's exactly as he raced it, bar tyres, which are currently Avons

And rims and shocks and the roll bar. That from a casual look at a couple of pics

#314 lyntonh

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:42

wow - that's my car (I think, it looks very different with the Galloway body on it) - have you got any more of these?


Here they come....in basic chronological order ... all from 1973.
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First lap ever run...at Amaroo Park....that nose cone caused the car to overheat....so....
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It came off....
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The new nose cone at Oran Park....
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The first race meeting at Warwick Farm, after damaging the nose after running wide out of the causeway..
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Another nose cone, of similar pattern & the right hand mirror raised so he could see over the back mudguard
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Edited by lyntonh, 13 February 2012 - 23:49.


#315 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:55

What on earth was it doing on treaded tyres?

I started racing the same year (in May) and had slicks from day one...

#316 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:01

Originally posted by lyntonh
Here they come....in basic chronological order ... all from 1973.
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Quite appropriate, remembering the title of the thread...

In these pics you can see a little of Col's low-cost dry sump arrangement. It uses a Falcon oil pump, if I recall correctly, mounted onto the timing cover to be driven by the nose of the cam.

Any close-ups of this, Lynton?

#317 lyntonh

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:15

Quite appropriate, remembering the title of the thread...

In these pics you can see a little of Col's low-cost dry sump arrangement. It uses a Falcon oil pump, if I recall correctly, mounted onto the timing cover to be driven by the nose of the cam.

Any close-ups of this, Lynton?


Only by cropping & enlarging...
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Oh, they're starting to struggle.....

Edited by lyntonh, 13 February 2012 - 23:50.


#318 seldo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 14:19

[quote name='lyntonh' date='Jan 4 2012, 21:42' post='5468342']
First lap ever run...at Amaroo Park....that nose cone caused the car to overheat....so....
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Doesn't surprise me - the first time we ran the "black car" at Hume Weir we had terrible over heating problems, which were subsequently solved by - at the suggestion of Dave Booth's mechanic Brian xxxxx(dementia peeping around the corner) taping a piece of 50mm fuel drum pipe across ahead of the radiator-exhaust-aperture in the top of the front nose-cone to prevent the air spilling back down into the air-exhaust. Solved the problem instantly...

So we ended up with something along the lines of this..

The new nose cone at Oran Park....
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quote]

Edited by seldo, 09 January 2012 - 12:19.


#319 timbo

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 07:28

John Wishart's Welsor clubman at HSRCA's Nov2011 historic meeting at Eastern Creek.

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#320 2Bob

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 20:29

John Wishart's Welsor clubman at HSRCA's Nov2011 historic meeting at Eastern Creek.


Just wondering - does that car run as a group Q or group R? I see in the results that it is a 1972 but the bodywork being used certainly isn't. (As I said - just wondering - very happy to see any clubbie running in historics!). And a plug for the Easter Historic meeting at Mallala - come on 'down' all clubbies (and others), you will have a good time and plenty of races!

#321 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 22:50

Just wondering - does that car run as a group Q or group R? I see in the results that it is a 1972 but the bodywork being used certainly isn't. (As I said - just wondering - very happy to see any clubbie running in historics!). And a plug for the Easter Historic meeting at Mallala - come on 'down' all clubbies (and others), you will have a good time and plenty of races!

Yes, CODs seem to be hard to get, yet a lot of historics are running in guises that were never period. This in most historic categorys

#322 gouldo

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:32

I believe that with some COD's they can be marked for example year 72/84 which means that it is a 72 built car but raced in the guise that it is presented as 1984. There are a few historic clubbies running this way now, and the way this Welsor is presented is very very nice. I ran against it at that meet & damn its wide. My old 71 nota had almost identical body work when John Wright put a new body on it in mid to late 80's for then owner Allen Swain, however when I got a log book for it, I had it presented in original clubbie trim.

Paul Hamilton should be able to confirm my interpretation of this....

#323 lyntonh

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:00

Keith Murray at Warwick Farm 9th July 1972
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Edited by lyntonh, 09 February 2012 - 11:41.


#324 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:25

I believe that with some COD's they can be marked for example year 72/84 which means that it is a 72 built car but raced in the guise that it is presented as 1984. There are a few historic clubbies running this way now, and the way this Welsor is presented is very very nice. I ran against it at that meet & damn its wide. My old 71 nota had almost identical body work when John Wright put a new body on it in mid to late 80's for then owner Allen Swain, however when I got a log book for it, I had it presented in original clubbie trim.

Paul Hamilton should be able to confirm my interpretation of this....


All CAMS Certificates of Description list both the year of original manufacture and the year the car's current specification represents which may be a later period in the car's history. Details of the current specification are listed in the document and it is that date which determines the historic group in which the car should compete. The intended function of the form is to enable scrutineers to confirm that the car is in the correct specification but, in my experience, not many of them bother to even look at the document!!

The year which event organisers list in programme entries or results sheets is normally simply taken from what is written on the entry form and that seems to be only rarely checked back to the C of D when cars are presented at scrutineering. Some entrants seem to prefer to list the date of original manufacture rather than the date of the current specification which can certainly be confusing when a car has been updated like this one has.

#325 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 12:17

I have had people chasing me about my old Torana Sports Sedan for GpU. Initially I was told it had to be as raced in about 84. But what seems to be logged is cars as they last raced in the late 90s. Most of which are considerably different rom 84, as my Torana was. So maybe I should have kept it and raced it as is was in 2000. A good basic prep and a new set of tyres and away I go.

#326 GMACKIE

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 21:27

Lee, don't forget to add the outrageous fee for the CAMS CofD. :eek:

#327 JJW

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:17

Just wondering - does that car run as a group Q or group R? I see in the results that it is a 1972 but the bodywork being used certainly isn't. (As I said - just wondering - very happy to see any clubbie running in historics!). And a plug for the Easter Historic meeting at Mallala - come on 'down' all clubbies (and others), you will have a good time and plenty of races!


As others have correctly guessed, our Welsor is running in group R reflecting its specification in the early 80s when it was rebodied by Harry Galloway for sports 1300. Its original chassis is 'largely' as per its manufacture in 1972, or at least as far as we know or can tell from the fabulous photos posted by lyntonh. I'd love to post up some current pictures myself but have not mastered the technology - anyway, Timbos photo from Eastern Creek is a good 'un.


#328 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 14:09

I can't imagine Harry allowing the chassis to pass under his gaze without him wanting to change a number of things...

At the very least he'd have tried to talk someone into it.

#329 cheapracer

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:18

There seems to be a bit of interest about my front beam and this is pretty much the final design, click on the little red arrow in the quote box below to get to the specific thread in the Tech Forum about the car ....


I would like to thank this very "Welsor" thread's existence and David Seldon for me biting the bullet, having the courage of my own convictions and having a go at something totally different .. :up:

The front is a highly unusual semi independent beam and I have never seen the design before and a bit hard to explain clearly.
Take a standard double ball joint upright and connect them together between the lower ball joints with a beam and run 2 radius rods forward (or rearwards) to the chassis for longitudal location.
From the upper ball joints also take 2 radius rods forward to the chassis also for longitudal location - you can see these 4 radius rods minus pivots in the renders.
From the upper ball joints short, adjustable (for static camber) lateral location rods run direct to the beam (imagine a typical wishbone but the rear pivot meets the beam not the chassis).
Lateral location of the beam can be the usual suspects, Watts, Panhard rod etc, but I am using a trailing reversed A-arm (single pivot under the beam) which makes front roll center changes a 5 minute job.

Sounds complicated but it's actually very simple in layout and surprisingly light in weight. It gives me a 2 tyre beam flat footprint while allowing independent action of caster and caster induced camber in steer/pitch.


From the upright yes ..

Black = uprights
Red = radius rods
Yellow = ball joints
Orange = beam
Blue = upright lateral link
Purple = beam lateral link (and roll centre)
Green = chassis

All the red and blue links are adjustable for length, for example, lengthen the upper red rods for increased caster or decrease the blue rods for more neg camber.

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I just drew these up to explain the beam system in full droop and bump and put it here for those who don't quite get it's function...

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Starting from the front of the car (just behind the 'cowcatcher' front spoiler) the lateral Aarm link is 2 legs of the 'A' converging to a point under the beam. I would prefer it the other way around but can't due to chassis bracing requirements in that area (think early Lotus Cortina rear axle lateral link).

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Edited by cheapracer, 11 January 2012 - 19:38.


#330 seldo

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 13:48

Thanks Mark - I think your concept is pretty fascinating, because, as you might expect, I find the whole "beam axle" concept so logical that I'm amazed no-one else has picked it up and run with it.
Keep 'em coming :D

#331 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 22:09

Devilishly clever...

But I think the simpler Welsor way would be lighter, even if it needed some minor refinement to the caster adjustment.

#332 cheapracer

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:38

Devilishly clever...

But I think the simpler Welsor way would be lighter, even if it needed some minor refinement to the caster adjustment.


Again, thanks for starting the thread Ray since you were responsible.

The Welsor system is a beauty and simple for sure but I felt the centre slip joint was problematic for longevity and the uprights difficult to secure to the beam with any reasonable good looking solutions - and I tried half a dozen prototype beams based on the Welsor layout.


#333 packapoo

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 06:48

:up:

Again, thanks for starting the thread Ray since you were responsible.

The Welsor system is a beauty and simple for sure but I felt the centre slip joint was problematic for longevity and the uprights difficult to secure to the beam with any reasonable good looking solutions - and I tried half a dozen prototype beams based on the Welsor layout.



:up: :up:

#334 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:06

I hope your faith in the system is rewarded, Cheapy...

I'm quite sure Col would be looking it over and saying, "Too complicated!" while the aforementioned Harry would be shaking his head and adding another dozen Rose joints.

#335 275 GTB-4

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:53

Morgan Park 14th July 2012

Nice machine :)

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#336 packapoo

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:19

Isn't it just! :up:

#337 seldo

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:50

Morgan Park 14th July 2012

Nice machine :)

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Ah yes - my old "black car" now finished in Orange and owned by Jim Templeton here in Brisbane.

#338 275 GTB-4

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:08

Isn't it just! :up:


Yes packapoo...I'd say...wait for it..."just the ticket" :rotfl:

#339 lyntonh

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:12

Ray Kaleda's car after he rolled at Amaroo Park 4th March 1973.

There was a mob of people around the car, so my photos are all close-ups.
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The RCN report.....
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The remark about the car being OK seems optimistic!

Edited by lyntonh, 29 January 2013 - 10:14.


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#340 seldo

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:31

I'm embarrassed to say I don't even recall the incident... :blush:
It was close racing in the Clubmans and we often lost a bit of paint or fibreglass...

Edited by seldo, 30 January 2013 - 02:47.


#341 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:45

Yeah, but I was watching!

I certainly remember the rollover, Kaleda (or maybe Col?) must have told me the car wasn't badly hurt.

#342 lyntonh

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:02

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This damage looks pretty severe....as if the tail shaft has had a go at mining the wall of the tunnel!!

#343 275 GTB-4

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:53

Amaroo Park 4th March 1973.

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So can we say that Bruce Allison was there with the Formula 2? or just his transporter/trailer?

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 30 January 2013 - 05:54.


#344 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:26

Yes, Lynton, there is some damage there because the engine has been moved on its mounts and the gearbox alignment is out and so the tailshaft has done some mischief...

But when you look at the rest of it, there's a wishbone or two bent, twisted or broken (left front), probably some dented rims, the inlet manifold and carbies need attention (possibly a new carby required), but most of it looks pretty right. There's a lot of 'apparent damage' from things being chucked over the top of it to get it all to the scrutineering bay.

He came back and won his next race, by the way. But that was two months later...

#345 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 21:51

Yes, Lynton, there is some damage there because the engine has been moved on its mounts and the gearbox alignment is out and so the tailshaft has done some mischief...

But when you look at the rest of it, there's a wishbone or two bent, twisted or broken (left front), probably some dented rims, the inlet manifold and carbies need attention (possibly a new carby required), but most of it looks pretty right. There's a lot of 'apparent damage' from things being chucked over the top of it to get it all to the scrutineering bay.

He came back and won his next race, by the way. But that was two months later...

Yeah but from what I have read it was in another chassis.

#346 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 23:34

Not so...

That car was repaired. Peter Lander's end-for-end episode ended up with him in a new chassis a week or two later.

#347 lyntonh

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:11

Car 3- 1971 - 1600 Ford, down draught head,wishbone front end, Arlewis St
Built for Ray Kaleda. Car written off by Ray Kaleda, new chassis made
Then Rod Swadling, A Fisher, tony Skinner, believed wrecked

From the list in post 222 and others

The thing seemed to have multiple wrecks......

Edited by lyntonh, 31 January 2013 - 01:12.


#348 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:18

Rod Swadling didn't come along for some time after that...

I'd suggest that it was a different crash that 'wrote off' the chassis.

#349 seldo

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 00:10

Rod Swadling didn't come along for some time after that...

I'd suggest that it was a different crash that 'wrote off' the chassis.

...he wasn't knick-named "Collider" for nothing...:)

#350 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:02

I had a bit of a look through race reports...

There's no mention of the fireman until the end of 1975, so that's about when he took over. I didn't go back through the later races in '73, but I also have a notion that somewhere along the way there was a tangle between Kaleda and one of the tintops. And I guess you'd reckon the tintop won.

But I don't actually remember that, it's just a notion in my mind.

Remember, too, that Ray was racing the Charger during this period, then got into Toranas, so he had a bit of racing on his plate even if the Welsor sat around for a while. Rod has clearly come along and got the idea of buying it when it was lying idle, but I think he knew (or even helped...) Kaleda with the Torana.

He did live nearby, IIRC, at Meadowbank.