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Some touring car discussion points...


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#1 DNQ

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:05

A few Touring Car Discussion Points:

1. From 1993-1995 (Super Touring), and apparently again from 2005-2006 (Super 2000), a World Cup for Touring Cars was held.

I am finding it very hard to find any information about this, other than the winners (Radisich in 93/94 then Frank Biela in 1995). Where were these races held, and what were the entry lists/results??

2. Which Touring Car race has had the most prestigious driver entry list - ie. the higher number of superstars, internationally renowed drivers, etc. I'm guessing perhaps the BMW M1 Procar events in 79/80, perhaps even DTM today (Frentzen, Alesi, Hakkinen, Schneider, Kristensen etc), or perhaps that Bathurst race in the 70s that had Stirling Moss, Jack Brabham alongside the likes of Brock, Bond, Moffat, Schuppan, Gardner, etc. Or maybe the BTCC in the mid-1990s?

3. What formula was Bathurst and the ATCC run to over the years?

I'm only aware of:

Early days: Production Cars
??-1984: Group C
1985-1992: Group A
1993-2006: V8 Supercars

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#2 ReWind

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 06:32

That might help as far as 1995 is concerned.

#3 DNQ

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 06:55

Cheers :clap:

Biela, Soper, Pirro, Muller, Cecotto, Niedzwiedz, Menu, Stuck, Winklehock, Capello, Brabham, Rydell, Reid, Tarquini, Ravalgia, Boutsen, Radisich, Cleland, Harvey, Read, van de Poele, Hahne ...

Wow. Talk about a star-studded lineup. That's like a who's who of Touring Car racing of the 80s/90s, with a smattering of F1 experience in there as well. Incredible. Chuck in Klaus Ludwig and Peter Brock and a few others and it'd be perfect. Jeez.

#4 Frank de Jong

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:05

2. I would not forget the early 70's, like Paul Ricard 1971: Current or future F1 drivers included Surtees, Stommelen, van Lennep, Soler-Roig, Jabouille, Ertl, Parkes, Max Jean, Heyer (sic), Miles, Stuck, Ickx and Beltoise.
Later years had frequent entries of Mass, Lauda, Stewart and Hunt for instance.

#5 DNQ

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:11

Ah Frank, I see you are the author of that wonderful, wonderful website.

Yes, I have very little knowledge of touring car racing in Europe prior to the 80s/90s, but I guessed those days woulda had some great crossovers with the F1 stars of the day.

#6 David Shaw

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:16

Originally posted by DNQ


Early days: Production Cars
1973 -1984: Group C
1985-1992: Group A
1992 -2006: V8 Supercars


Bathurst in 1992 had V8 Supercars running in a separate class, as well as the Group A cars.

#7 DNQ

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:21

Thanks David.

Was Group A introduced simply to bring Australia in line with what was happening in Europe? Because from what I can tell, Touring Car racing under Group C was more than healthy.

#8 cosworth bdg

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:35

Originally posted by David Shaw


Bathurst in 1992 had V8 Supercars running in a separate class, as well as the Group A cars.

Just what is a V8 Supercar classified as?

#9 David Shaw

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:43

According to the CAMS website, it is a Production Car, along with the V8 Utes and Performance Cars which were formerly GTP or Nations Cup.

Although they are as much a production car as a NASCAR is.

EDIT: Bad grammar.

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 08:06

1993 was run at Monza, 1994 at Donington Park. 1993 was a 2-heat event with the overall result determined on points as mentioned in Reinhard's post.

1994 was a single race, the winner receiving the Tourist Trophy.

In all three years there was also a "Nations" overall result and in 1994-5 a manufacturers table. Top six and final tables for all these can be found in Peter Higham's "International Motor Racing Guide" on pages 558-9.

#11 cosworth bdg

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 08:21

Originally posted by David Shaw


Although they are as much a production car as a NASCAR is.

EDIT: Bad grammar.

How very true ,any similarity to a production car is purely coincidentle....

#12 Catalina Park

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 10:05

Originally posted by DNQ
Early days: Production Cars
1973 -1984: Group C
1984 -1992: Group A
1992 -2006: V8 Supercars


Originally posted by David Shaw
Bathurst in 1992 had V8 Supercars running in a separate class, as well as the Group A cars.

Bathurst in 84 had Group A running in a seperate class as well as Group C cars.

#13 Mallory Dan

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 10:33

Are you all referring to 'Saloon' cars on here ....

#14 ian senior

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 10:42

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Are you all referring to 'Saloon' cars on here ....


The definition was a bit loose at times. It always amazed me that cars such as the Porsche 911 and Mazda RX7 could compete in what I thought were saloon car races.

#15 MonzaDriver

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 10:51

Originally posted by Vitesse2
1993 was run at Monza, 1994 at Donington Park. 1993 was a 2-heat event with the overall result determined on points as mentioned in Reinhard's post.

1994 was a single race, the winner receiving the Tourist Trophy.

In all three years there was also a "Nations" overall result and in 1994-5 a manufacturers table. Top six and final tables for all these can be found in Peter Higham's "International Motor Racing Guide" on pages 558-9.



Dear Vitesse, DNQ, and Frank de Jong,
fortunately I assisted at the Monza race. One of the most terrific, beautiful for the heart, and amazing race I've ever seen on track.
Works cars, specialist drivers, a starting grid you cannot believe.
First lap............a pleasure for the eyes.
Very close to the BTCC of those years, that I've had the fortune to watch on Eurosport, the reason why I put a parabol on the balcony.
But like many other kind of races that on those years, reached a good following both from the audience and from the constructors point of view, suddenly ended for some unknow reasons........

I would like to say thank you to Frank for his web-site effort.

MonzaDriver.

#16 subh

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 13:11

Originally posted by Vitesse2
1993 was run at Monza, 1994 at Donington Park. 1993 was a 2-heat event with the overall result determined on points as mentioned in Reinhard's post.

1994 was a single race, the winner receiving the Tourist Trophy.

In all three years there was also a "Nations" overall result and in 1994-5 a manufacturers table. Top six and final tables for all these can be found in Peter Higham's "International Motor Racing Guide" on pages 558-9.


I have copied out from the above source:

1993 FIA World Cup, Monza, 2 x 15 laps
1 Paul Radisich/NZ Ford Mondeo Si 32:17.790 P
2 Alain Cudini/F Opel Vectra 32:19.307
3 Nicola Larini/I Alfa Romeo 155 32:21.397
4 John Cleland/GB Vauxhall Cavalier 16V 32:21.508 FL
5 Alessandro Nannini/I Alfa Romeo 155 32:23.469
6 Yannick Dalmas/F Peugeot 405 Mi16 32:34.295

1 Paul Radisich/NZ Ford Mondeo Si 34:52.203 P
2 Nicola Larini/I Alfa Romeo 155 34:53.065
3 Philippe Gache/F Alfa Romeo 155 34:54.345
4 Alex Burgstaller/D BMW 318i 34:57.094
5 Eric van de Poele/B* Nissan Primera eGT 34:57.822 FL
6 Emanuele Pirro/I BMW 318i 34:58.444
* two second penalty

Radisich 80; Larini 54; Gache 33; Cudini 30; Burgstaller 30; Cleland 24; Christophe Bouchut/F 23; Dalmas 20; van de Poele 19; Jean-Pierre Malcher/F 18
IT 86; FR 86; NZ 80; DE 64; BE 28; GB 15; YV 8; AU 7


1994 FIA World Cup, Donington Park, 25 laps
1 Paul Radisich/NZ Ford Mondeo Ghia 41:56.73 P,FL
2 Steve Soper/GB BMW 318iS 41:58.65
3 Joachim Winkelhock/D BMW 318iS 42:03.84
4 Gabriele Tarquini/I Alfa Romeo 155 Silv’s. 42:04.69
5 Hans-Joachim Stuck/D Audi 80 Competition 42:26.23
6 Johnny Cecotto/YV BMW 318iS 42:27.95

#17 subh

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 13:14

Missed this bit from 1994:
BMW 54; Ford 48; Alfa Romeo 20; Audi, Toyota 16; Peugeot 6; Nissan 2; GM 1
DE 53; GB 44; IT 31; ES 12

#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 14:17

Thanks subh :up:

I didn't have time to post that at the time :)

#19 cosworth bdg

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 01:12

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Are you all referring to 'Saloon' cars on here ....

It is a very loose definition down here..... :down: :down: :down:

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#20 racer69

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 15:13

Originally posted by DNQ
Was Group A introduced simply to bring Australia in line with what was happening in Europe? Because from what I can tell, Touring Car racing under Group C was more than healthy.


Group C was actually abit of a basket case rules wise, particularly in 1982-83 period (late '83 especially)

Basically by 1983 there were no set rules to build your car to, if you wanted some performance improvements, you went and lobbied CAMS for some handouts. If you were successful, all of a sudden other competitors would go and lobby for changes to their cars....and on it went. The crux of the matter was that CAMS seemed incapable of finding a set of rules to keep some 'parity' between V8 Commodores, Falcons & Camaro's, rotary Mazda's, 6 cylinder BMW's, Turbo Bluebird's and V12 Jaguars.

The whole business really reached crisis point at the Oran Park round of the 1983 ATCC (Round 7 of 8 in that years title). While Allan Moffat was storming off into the distance to win his 4th round of that year in his 12A rotary powered Mazda, new rule changes effective from August 1st 1983 (in time for the first Endurance Championship round) were announced on the live TV coverage of the race by ABC commentators John Smailes & Neil Crompton, the most controversial change being Allan Moffat receiving a more powerful 13B powerplant.

Uproar & more lobbying followed, and more 'handouts' were announced effective from September 1st, Ten days before the Sandown 500 (these included new aerodynamic devices for the Commodore's, new turbochargers for the Nissan's etc). It didn't end there, on the day before official qualifying at Sandown, Allan Moffat (who felt that the September 1 handouts had put him behind) was granted the use of fuel injection on his 13B engine......


By the time 1984 came around, Group A had been announced (as many people were for it as against it at the time, for at least it provided a standard set of rules, allowing for none of the lobbying & handouts associated with parity), yet there, as you mention DNQ, a healthy line-up for the 1984 ATCC.

Marques represented at the pointy end of the field for the 1984 ATCC were Holden, Mazda, Ford, BMW & Nissan, but in my opinion, if Group A didn't come in 1985, the Group C formula in it's then current form didn't have much of a future;


BMW had already threatened complete withdrawal (along with WD & HO Wills, owner of JPS) from Australian Touring Car racing in 1982 after the BMW 535i was not allowed to be used. They did not compete in the 1983 ATCC, only reappearing at the Endurance races when the handouts were given. They had a ready-made Group A race winner in the 635csi for 1985, so they likely only competed in 1984 to mark time and gain some experience of the tour, as the car was never really competitive under Group C rules (though Jim Richards did get pole in the wet at Lakeside, and lead the opening laps, plus he set the fastest race lap at Surfers Paradise in the wet). If Group C had stayed beyond 1984, i think BMW would have pulled out long before then.


While Mazda was competitive in the ATCC, the cars struggled at Bathurst. Allan Moffat was asked in an interview by Steve Raymond during the 1983 James Hardie 1000 about what would happen if he couldn't win Bathurst in the Mazda that year, and Moffat replied they would have to look somewhere else for the future. When it was announced that 1984 would be the last year of Group C, there was little point in Moffat investing in a new project for only one season, so he probably looked at it as his best bet for '84 was to stick with what he had. Had Group C continued Mazda may have continued, but the RX7, even in 13B trim, wasn't a match for the bigger cars at Bathurst.


Ford had Dick Johnson as their frontline competitor, but Ford Australia hadn't had a V8 since late-1982, and the XE Falcon was being shortly replaced by the XF, and CAMS were unlikely to allow any leniencies (Like they did with the XD & XE, allowing things like engines which dated back to the XC). A 6 cylinder Falcon would unlikely have been competitive, so beyond 1984/85 Johnson would have had to look elsewhere (or maybe he would have had abit more incentive with his turbo 6 Falcon) had Group C continued.


That leaves Holden and Nissan, who were as committed as ever, and showed no signs of wanting to stop competing, and both had very competitive cars. However beyond these two, things didn't look so rosy in my opinion.


While unsuccessful in the long run (due in the main to Paris), i still think the move to Group A was the right move. The racing provided by the class in 1985-86-87 was every bit as good as the racing provided by Group C (indeed, many class Calder 1985 as one of the best ATCC races ever), and even when the dreaded 'parity' worked it's way back in Australian touring car races (sadly it's mothballed into the 'NASCAR' type stuff we have in V8Supercars today) in 1992, there was a bunch of brilliant racing that year between Ford, Holden, Nissan and BMW.

#21 Paul Newby

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 00:29

Great summary racer69! :clap:

We tend to get nostalgic about the good ol' days, and now we have Australian Muscle Car magazine rewritting history from a muscle car perspective. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the mag - its detail is often breathtaking. But it is certainly skewed and anything that doesn't qualify as a muscle car gets short-shift - irrespective of its period importance.

I also believe that Group A was a golden era, in terms of the variety of the competition and the parity system worked at least in the early years, but alas was exploited by the likes of Ford and Nissan in the later years.

V8 Supercars certainly has the drivers and plenty of depth. But technically it is a deadend. As someone who is as much interested in racing cars as motor racing, this disappoints. Thee really is no point of differnce between the cars like there used to be with say a Sierra RS500, BMW M3 and Holden Commodore.

#22 LB

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 01:49

on Question 2

hows this line up?

1 7 Emerson Fittipaldi 30 Running
2 8 George Follmer 30 Running
3 4 A. J. Foyt 30 Running
4 10 David Pearson 30 Running
5 3 Richard Petty 30 Running
6 1 Jody Scheckter 30 Running
7 6 Ronnie Peterson 30 Running
8 11 Cale Yarborough 30 Running
9 5 Johnny Rutherford 30 Running
10 2 Graham Hill 30 Running
11 12 Bobby Unser 29 Running
12 9 Bobby Allison 0 Accident

(IROC 1975)

or even

1 2 Bobby Allison 30 Running
2 4 Al Unser 30 Running
3 11 A. J. Foyt 30 Running
4 10 Mario Andretti 30 Running
5 12 Bobby Unser 30 Running
6 1 James Hunt 30 Running
7 5 Brian Redman 30 Running
8 3 David Pearson 30 Running
9 8 Benny Parsons 30 Running
10 6 Jody Scheckter 27 Flat tire
11 7 Richard Petty 23 Accident
12 9 Emerson Fittipaldi 18 Accident

(IROC 1976)

#23 cosworth bdg

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:41

Originally posted by Paul Newby
Great summary racer69! :clap:

We tend to get nostalgic about the good ol' days, and now we have Australian Muscle Car magazine rewritting history from a muscle car perspective. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the mag - its detail is often breathtaking. But it is certainly skewed and anything that doesn't qualify as a muscle car gets short-shift - irrespective of its period importance.

I also believe that Group A was a golden era, in terms of the variety of the competition and the parity system worked at least in the early years, but alas was exploited by the likes of Ford and Nissan in the later years.

V8 Supercars certainly has the drivers and plenty of depth. But technically it is a deadend. As someone who is as much interested in racing cars as motor racing, this disappoints. Thee really is no point of differnce between the cars like there used to be with say a Sierra RS500, BMW M3 and Holden Commodore.

Very well put.....................

#24 FerrariV12

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 04:38

Group C? As in the prototype sportscars? I'm confused!

#25 DNQ

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 06:16

No.

Group C Touring Cars.

Completely different to Group C Sportscars.

#26 David Shaw

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 12:17

It's an Australian thing.

#27 Catalina Park

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 06:38

In Australia we had Group C Touring cars and Group A Sportscars.
Europe had Group A Touring Cars and Group C Sportscars.
But remember, we named ours first. :smoking: