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Does anybody miss DSJ?


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#51 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:27

Originally posted by bradbury west
I just thought it might be seemly to mention that it was ten years ago today, 29.11.1996, that Jenks passed away.


Absolutely, Roger... though I find it hard to accept it's been that long!

We're working, by the way, towards having a 'DSJ Award' or something of that style for a contest we're going to run in a magazine with which I'm connected. Readers submit race reports, we print the best one, the award for that issue goes to that reader.

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#52 Twin Window

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 02:33

Originally posted by Ray Bell

We're working, by the way, towards having a 'DSJ Award' or something of that style for a contest we're going to run in a magazine with which I'm connected. Readers submit race reports, we print the best one, the award for that issue goes to that reader.

Excellent idea. :up:

#53 D-Type

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 17:38

Originally posted by bradbury west
Jenks and Moss at the FoS, 1995...

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I just thought it might be seemly to mention that it was ten years ago today, 29.11.1996, that Jenks passed away.


Roger Lund.

This seems an appropriate place to repeat what 'Rob' wrote on another forum:

"The 1955 Mille Miglia was won by Denis Jenkinson in a chauffeur-driven Mercedes-Benz 300SLR" :)



I know - I posted this recently on the other DSJ thread, but the quote's worth repeating

#54 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 06:02

Just typed up the promo article for the 'Denis Jenkinson Award' in the magazine...

It hits the streets first week of February, hope we get plenty of budding 'DSJs' entering.

#55 Pete Aron

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 06:59

Please excuse my ignorance, Ray, but with which magazine are you associated? And I applaud the concept of a "DSJ award".

Like so many of us on this forum, I found Jenks' writing significantly shaped my views on most every aspect of Formula 1. BTW, while convalescing from surgery two yrs ago, I re-read all of Jenks' submissions in Motor Sport for 1980-89. His rather caustic comments about Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley were amazingly prescient!

One of my fondest racing-related memories is of chatting with Jenks in the garage of the Long Beach Convention Centre on a Friday evening of the 1978 Long Beach Grand Prix. He was so charming and affable; Jenks could not have been nicer to my friend and me.
Frank

#56 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:50

The magazine in question is the (fledgling) Racer Magazine Australia...

We've been given the job of turning it into something of a success.

#57 bradbury west

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:58

Ray, re the quotation.
It reminds me of the story of the old Italian who believed Moss won because he had a passenger sitting alongside him who was an old priest reading from the scriptures throughout the race.................................

BTW, will there be a website for the new magazine? Best of luck with it.

Roger

#58 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 12:50

Yes, there will be a website...

And thanks for your wishes, Roger. And just as a treat for you, here's a piccie I came across. I think you'll recall me talking about this scene:

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#59 Keir

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 14:35

His style of writing is without a doubt missed !!

Just like Pete Lyons.

Different eras, different styles. - both missed !

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#60 kayemod

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 14:42

Originally posted by Keir
His style of writing is without a doubt missed !!

Just like Pete Lyons.

Different eras, different styles. - both missed !


Just in case anyone misunderstands that last post, I'd like to point out that Pete Lyons is alive and well and living in semi-retirement in southern California.

#61 bradbury west

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 14:45

[i]Originally posted by kayemod []

Just in case anyone misunderstands that last post, I'd like to point out that Pete Lyons is alive and well and living in semi-retirement in southern California.

And writing for Vintage Racecar, where his excellent photo archive comes into its own

RL

#62 Keir

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 14:47

I really didn't know Pete was writing again !! :blush:

..... of course I did know he was alive !! :lol:

#63 kayemod

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 15:03

Originally posted by Keir
..... of course I did know he was alive !! :lol:


I was pretty sure you would have done, but your post had a kind of 'Six feet under...' ring to it. I was just trying to put peoples' minds at rest to prevent unseemly panic.

#64 Rosemayer

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 15:46

Jenks was of a different era. It reminds me of a quote from David Hobbs about the Kink at Road America when driving F5000 cars."You went into the Kink knowing if you got it wrong you would be in the trees but it did't bother us as all tracks were like that at that time".

#65 RS2000

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 17:28

A story from last month. I was talking (in the western hemisphere) with a former F3 driver who knew "The Lost Generation", and other drivers, Hunt etc, well. Touching on death and injury, I volunteered that, in my youth, I had hung on every word from DSJ, including his "milk and water drivers" aimed at JYS's safety campaigning, but now realised I was so wrong to ever endorse those particular words.
He waived his fist in the air and shouted "Dennis Jenkinson was an a***hole!"
Well, it's a different view...

#66 bradbury west

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 17:57

Just as well no name is mentioned.....so no pack drill. Perhaps the driver whom you quote relies on his own delusions of adequacy.

Anyhow, he must be talking about someone else, since Jenks only had one "n" in Denis, AFAIK.

Roger Lund.

#67 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 19:52

That's right, one 'n' in 'Denis', one in 'Sargent', but two in 'Jenkinson'...

Shame he never made it to Warwick Farm. Like that pic, Roger?

#68 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 19:57

Originally posted by Ray Bell
... but two in 'Jenkinson'...

Er, three, Ray :p

#69 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 20:42

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Er, three, Ray


Sprung!

And did you like the Warwick Farm pic?

#70 RS2000

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 21:16

Originally posted by bradbury west
Just as well no name is mentioned.....so no pack drill. Perhaps the driver whom you quote relies on his own delusions of adequacy.

Anyhow, he must be talking about someone else, since Jenks only had one "n" in Denis, AFAIK.

Roger Lund.


Did you read those particular DSJ writings "in period"? The "milk and water" comment was way out. I wasn't old enough then to understand by how much. Being a chassis detail god etc. doesn't alter the fact that if those views were reflected in safety actions it would soon have put the whole future of the sport at risk. The man was wrong. Let's not hide it.
..and some of us did make it beyond being professional typists..

#71 David McKinney

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 21:47

Originally posted by RS2000
The man was wrong. Let's not hide it.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing
Yes, I did read DSJ's comments in period - a lot of them read as being tongue-in-check or even deliberate sh**-stirring

#72 Twin Window

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 22:58

Originally posted by David McKinney

Yes, I did read DSJ's comments in period - a lot of them read as being tongue-in-check or even deliberate sh**-stirring

Like his nomination of a 'Team Shambles' at most races in the early/mid '70s!*

(* I missed the fact that this had already been mentioned)

#73 D-Type

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 23:06

"And Lotus would have taken over the team shambles award from BRM - if BRM hadn't lost it"

:confused: Or was it the other way round?

#74 bradbury west

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 23:09

RS2000.

I have taken MS since December 1960 so I feel that I have been sufficiently well exposed to Jenks' writings and views, which have been , and will be, the basis of my esteem for the man. You do not have to believe or support all he says, just as there must be those who do not share your, clearly trenchant, views about speed events etc, or the regulating thereof, IIRC from your numerous posts, most of which I gloss over. However, he was of his time, as was MS in those days, which may be hard for those who were not there, to understand.

As David implies, you needed to understand how he "ticked". Moreover, the world was a different place then, dangerous sports especially.

I would be very interested, as would others, no doubt, to hear the obviously well reasoned grounds on which your colleague saw fit to base his neo-epigrammatic declaration about Jenks.

For my part, if your implied comments refer to me, perhaps it is because over the years I have progressed beyond being a professional typist that I now enjoy what some might regard as an pleasant level of independence.

Roger Lund.

PS; Since , to my understanding, the rules of this forum preclude personal remarks and abuse etc, I shall accept your comments in good humour, as I expect you with mine, otherwise I would not have dignified it with a response. RL

PPS Ray, loved the pic.

#75 Doug Nye

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 23:20

The Garden Gnome's vanity would have been polished-up v. nicely by this thread, but let's get a few things perfectly clear, could we?

'Milk and water' was DSJ stirring-up the troops and pompously p----g from a height of 5ft 2 1/2ins upon JYS and the fact that his campaign was taking away from all we mere mortals the high wire (without safety net) upon which we had watched OUR heroes perform with such brilliance over so many years. That was a high wire to which very few of us could ever aspire, 'cos even if we could have afforded the cost, the talent and the dedication to find a way to drive there...we would either have had too much imagination to do so, or we would simply have been too chicken to take the risks.

The F3 driver who thought Jenks was an 'apparent all-embracing American fixation' perhaps demonstrated WHY he had not progressed BEYOND F3 if that was his total grasp of the racing world of the period.

And as for ANY parallel between DSJ and that other 'apparent all-embracing American fixation' Clarkson, the people who have developed such an impression just never knew the tough, fearless, short-arsed little nugget, nor really understood a word of what he wrote.

There's a world of difference between speaking out from a position of immense stature, knowledge and respect amongst one's peers and one's sport, and merely blustering or bullying merely for effect in the mass media. In my experience that's one woolly headed prat who isn't fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as our late friend.

DCN

#76 JohnS

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 00:03

Originally posted by Doug Nye
That's one woolly headed prat who isn't fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as our late friend.DCN


And so say all of us. Well, me anyway. Cannot stand the man.

John

#77 RS2000

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 00:46

I will pass over being "abused" (italics, notice) for typing mistakes then! I will also not make too much of having been a disciple of DSJ before 1960. The reaction to recounting a simple anecdote says it all.
The sport has historically been heavily populated with drones, wheeler dealers and downright crooks (the last category embracing a one time driver associate of the driver I was talking to, incidently) and too many seem to forget it. The rose tinted spectacles need to be kept under review a bit more. That also applies to deities like DSJ: sometimes they were wrong (and not so tongue in cheek about it?).
The comments regarding the third party above are offensive to him and he is not here to justify the totally unsolicited opinion he expressed. Methinks some doth protest too much - and in the case of BW about things with no connection to this thread. Ponder on why I did not name that party: I anticipated some such reaction to what is simply a factual account of an incident that balances in one tiny respect the historical view of the justifiably highest-esteemed reporter. Live with it.
Around that time, I nearly killed myself on a race circuit adopting the cavalier safety attitudes we applauded. It was time to move on to some basic improvements in safety. As a result, the sport is still around.
Lets not mention the woolly-headed one in a motorsports context at all - the two can't be allowed together!
(but can he be called a prat on here, as above?!)

#78 David M. Kane

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 02:13

Doug:

May I ask who that F3 driver was, feel free to PM me. I've only seen Jeremy Clarkson a few times on T.V. and I find him to be nothing special one way or the other; however, there never will be another Jenks simply on a pure overall knowledge level of all things mechanical.

Jeremy Clarkson is a presentor...an actor reading lines.

#79 Wolf

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 02:28

Well, our esteemed Doug said something on the same line as I did before him- I better start working on my grandchildren project, so I have someone to tell this story to. :D

I don't see much cavallier about DSJ's stance to safety- wasn't it GPDA president who said those words (when asked whether GPDA was some kind of trade union) :

'It is not!' he said. 'The G.P.D.A. was formed for general betterment of motor-racing. I'm president at the moment, so I think I can say with authority that it is no part of trade union. I think that idea would finish racing off in big hurry. I mean there is nothing militant about G.P.D.A.; we would never go on strike, that sort of thing. What we try to do, we try to induce promoters to improve the circuits, make them safer, mainly for the spectator. We do not advocate taking out trees, for instance, eliminating things that make for interest. We don't want "spin-off" zones and that sort of thing. We do like circuits like Laguna Seca in California, which is difficult circuit, a dangerous circuit, it's definitely not a club circuit, but we like it. We like the natural hazards. We'd like to race around Hyde Park or Central Park without any changes at all in the topography. We accept the hazards, as at Monaco, of hitting a building or going over a drop; after all, it's no fun gambling for match-sticks.


I'm terrible with names, so don't recaal the exact name, but I think Doug could remember who it was (ISTR he was short of being branded as a coward by DSJ, at some point)... And I get the feeling he wasn't a two-bit player either- I do remember he had initials in a laurel wreath on his overalls, so he must've been someone important!

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#80 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 08:20

RS - I recognise better than most that just because Jenks said or wrote something doesn't mean it was right. You are correct there. Papal infallibility is NOT something properly ascribed to him.

But what he did do very well in this case was to articulate the sense of change, and of loss, which many core enthusiasts felt as the racing world began to move on. Perhaps typically, in many respects while emphasising his point, he rather over-stated his case. Equally typically he would have defended his stance to the death. The progress of 'accepted standards' has affected many sports and enthusiasms and arenas in which the competitive human animal once enjoyed larkin' about untramelled. Thankfully we still enjoy the freedom to express regret, irritation and rage about that....

David - sorry, haven't a clue who the quoted F3 driver was. It was RS's story, not mine.

DCN

#81 bill moffat

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 09:16

Originally posted by Dennis David
When "uncle" Ken Tyrrell rings you up and says : "Can you come over, I've got something to show you", you don't ask: "What?" or "Why?". One thing about Ken, and I have known him for 40 years, is he never called a spade a shovel; you know exactly where you stand with him, right or wrong. So one morning in September 1975, having just got back from Monza, I got on my motorcycle and rode over to Ken's house in West Clandon, and after a welcoming cup of coffee he said: "Come out into the garden". Totally unprepared for what to expect, I followed him out to the lawn and my mouth fell open, and a look of total disbelief came upon my face. Ken roared with laughter as I stood there speechless, and to this day he still has a chuckle at the memory of "Jenks speechless".

Denis Jenkinson describing the first time he laid eyes on the Tyrrell P34.

Dennis David


The alternative version of DSJ's introduction to the P34 is one that has done the rounds but just happens to be recalled in this month's F1 Racing magazine. I quote : Jenks came in , stared in disbelief and spun on his heels. "Right I think I'd better go out and try coming in again" he exclaimed.

Perhaps it is a story either embellished, or even created, by the passage of time but rather nice all the same.

If you visit Laugharne in West Wales you can visit Dylan Thomas' Boat House. Frozen in time you can look in the windows of what looks like a humble house garage and see his chaotic "office" unspoilt and unchanged by the passage of the years. What a pity Jenks' cottage couldn't have been preserved similarly, coming to think of it I reckon the two of them might have got on rather well together....

#82 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 10:51

Back in April 1972 I was in the Royal Engineers in Moenchen-Gladbach in Germany and I'd heard about a nearby road which at one time was a racing circuit. It's called Grenzlandring. I wrote to Jenks at MotorSport and was surprised to receive a very nice, 3-page, hand written letter from him telling me about the circuit.

I was a bit annoyed that I was so far from any racing circuits in that part of Germany and had asked him why we were so lucky in the UK. His interesting reply was -

"Regarding your comments on Germany and small circuits, Europe has a different mentality to Britain. We think 1 mile around a field is a circuit and five laps is a race. Germany think the Nurburgring is a cicuit and 7 laps of it a race. I don't think our tiny circuits develop Grand Prix drivers at all, few of them mature until they race on real circuits. Ickx, Regazzoni, Rodriguez, Siffert, Cevert, Andretti, etc, were not brought up on 'Mickey Mouse' circuits and Stewart developed when he left England. Being a 'five lap scratcher' is one thing, being a racing driver is another. What Britain offers is opportunity to drive good cars, it being the centre of racing car building in Europe. It is this that Germany lacks".

I still have the letter.

#83 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:44

On the other hand, Grenzlandring was hardly a test of any driver...

I'd keep that letter if I was you. Brilliant, read it to your grandchildren!

#84 Sharman

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 16:04

RS,
I feel bound to ask. Who forced you and your F3 driver friend to climb into racing cars? It can't have been Jenks who had put his money where his mouth was on solo motor bikes and sidecars and accepted the risks. I think he not only said what he thought but was also able to give an insight, which we all miss, into the real background of motor racing at its highest levels.
JF

#85 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 18:59

I think that it mught be said that DSJ -- I love Doug's the "Garden Gnome" -- was simply his own man in the very truest sense of that term. I know that I certainly did not always agree with him and even dared to say so once or twice. However, I always suspected that some of his remarks were more given to winding certain folks up than anything else.

It was always my impression that he lived in the here and now.

I certainly cannot say to have much personal insight into his thoughts since I would only run into him from time to time over a number of years. He was always able to find a moment for me, brief as it may have been. So, while he was perhaps annoyed with some of the changes going on regarding the venues and what have you, it seemed more that it was how they were being done. At least that is both my recollection and opinion.

DSJ/G2 always seemed to be given a bit more leeway when it came to speaking one's mind. Rightfully so in my book. He said some things that were perhaps best left unsaid, but who hasn't?

I also have the lasting impression that DSJ/G2 was not very much "full of himself" and simply got on with life and was able to live it pretty much on his own terms. Nor do I think that he really cared all that much what folks thought of him.

DSJ/G2 was exactly who and what he was and was a factor in why many of us are sitting in front of computer screens punching the keys and writing about racing.

#86 oldtimer

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 19:27

Originally posted by Sharman
RS,
I feel bound to ask. Who forced you and your F3 driver friend to climb into racing cars? It can't have been Jenks who had put his money where his mouth was on solo motor bikes and sidecars and accepted the risks. I think he not only said what he thought but was also able to give an insight, which we all miss, into the real background of motor racing at its highest levels.
JF


Some time after Jenks passed on, I remember seeing a picture taken at the La Source hairpin at Spa way back in the days when Jenks used to race there. The picture showed the unkempt grass verges, and it somehow brought home to me his racing world. Nearly 9 miles of unkempt grass verges, trees, hedges, ditches, and farmhouses lining country roads with blindingly fast corners, that was the Spa he and Eric Oliver were taking on at or near 10/10s. All that is left of that description now is 'blindingly fast corners'.

That was his racing world, and somewhere amongst all those words he wrote about his passion, are racer's opinions of Spa in the old days. Amongst these are thoughts of those who were not aces, either in their minds nor the public's. They coped with the dangers by keeping away from the 10/10s stuff.

That was his racing world. In his day, you took on the circuit as well as your machine and your competitors. It is clear that, rightly or wrongly, Jenks looked down his those who did not wish to take on certain circuits without prorective measures. In his day, the protective measure was your choice about how fast you were willing to go. Or, more starkly, your choice to climb into the cockpit of a racing car, as Sharman asked.

#87 Twin Window

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 21:43

Originally posted by oldtimer

That was his racing world. In his day, you took on the circuit as well as your machine and your competitors. It is clear that, rightly or wrongly, Jenks looked down his those who did not wish to take on certain circuits without prorective measures. In his day, the protective measure was your choice about how fast you were willing to go. Or, more starkly, your choice to climb into the cockpit of a racing car, as Sharman asked.

Well put. :up:

#88 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 23:39

Indeed - I think he would have been quite touched by that...

...not that he would ever admit it. :rolleyes:

DCN

#89 D-Type

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 22:58

It was more or less after he retired, but does anybody know what Jenks had to say about Suzuka 1990

#90 LittleChris

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 01:12

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
Back in April 1972 I was in the Royal Engineers in Moenchen-Gladbach in Germany and I'd heard about a nearby road which at one time was a racing circuit. It's called Grenzlandring. I wrote to Jenks at MotorSport and was surprised to receive a very nice, 3-page, hand written letter from him telling me about the circuit.


It was his mention of those little recognised places such as Grenzland/ Wegberg in Continental Notes that fuelled my almost lifelong fascination with old road tracks such as Cadours, Floreffe, Chimay, Bourg en Bresse etc.

#91 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 23:08

"Grenzlandring was hardly a test of any driver..."

Grenzlandring was as many of you will know not quite oval in shape and more egg-like. The road was pretty narrow and lined with trees, and it's end came when a car crashed into the crowd with great loss of life. In so much as the circuit was incredibly fast - in it's day, the fastest motorcycle circuit in the World - for the drivers and riders (Jenks of course was Eric Oliver's passenger on their Norton outfit, it was a supreme test of courage.

Grandchildren? We wish. I don't know what's up with our kids :confused:

#92 Keir

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 17:30

Grez is one of my favorite GPL circuits. High speed all the way !!

#93 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 00:34

Bill Patterson, who raced a Cooper F3 car there, told me it had been built as a Panzer marshalling and/or training area...

#94 bradbury west

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 19:23

Originally posted by bradbury west
Jenks and Moss at the FoS, 1995...
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I just thought it might be seemly to mention that it was ten years ago today, 29.11.1996, that Jenks passed away.
Roger Lund.


Another year goes by, and I make no apologies for marking the date.
Roger Lund.
Photos copyright myself.

BTW Ray, How is the DSJ Award scheme going?
RL

#95 Mal9444

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 20:20

Originally posted by bradbury west


Another year goes by, and I make no apologies for marking the date.
Roger Lund.
Photos copyright myself.RL


No apology needed, Roger - I have just enjoyed reading the entire thread from start to finish for the first time, and would have missed it altogether but for your post.

I too have read the story about (in my case) the old Italian lady who thought that 'Sterleeng' had driven the entire race accompanied by a priest who read to him from the Bible - anyone know whence it comes?

Jenks - A Passion for Motor Sport was one of the (oh so many!) books I bought when my interest in motor racing was re-kindled by going to the second Goodwood Revival; an absolutley wonderful read.

#96 D-Type

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 23:19

Thanks for the reminder Roger. Like Malcolm I have just read the thread right through, but not for the first time.

He even made it into fiction - in the novel A shriek of tyres Douglas Rutherford writes of his hero walking down the pit lane at Monaco and exchanging a few words with "the diminutive bearded foreign correspondent for Motor Sport".

#97 bradbury west

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 07:59

There was a nice page on DSJ in last month's Octane, complete with a shot of him hanging right out of the "chair " of a motor bike. A super shot of our hero.
RL

#98 Stephen W

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:38

Originally posted by Stephen W in November 2005
When each issue of Motor Sport lands on the dooor mat. I just hope that somewhere in the magazine there will be an article that measures up to the great man's standards.

I met him on a couple of occasions and found him charming and extremely helpful to a Grand Prix novice. I shared his fear of the sanitisation of F1 and retreated to Hillclimbs & Sprints once big business got its stranglehold.

One day there will be a journalist who measures up to his standards until then I'll just have to wait impatiently.

:)


I'm still waiting! ;)

#99 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
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Posted 09 February 2008 - 17:50

Not sure which is the best 'Jenks' thread on which to post these, but I'll try this one, as it's the most recent one which has been active. I think they are probably more appropriate here than on the "Paddock" thread.

Posted Image Posted Image
Discussing the merits of the Turtle Drilling Special with Barrie Williams, VSCC Silverstone April 1991

Posted Image Posted Image
With Moss at the 1995 Festival of Speed, and two giants of 20th century motor sport journalism, DSJ and photographer Guy Griffiths.

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#100 fines

fines
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Posted 09 February 2008 - 18:06

Nice pictures! :up:

But, "Turtle Drilling Special"? Looks like a US dirt track car, can you expand?