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Motorcycle racing; 1949-1968 nostalgia


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#8501 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:12

I recall him being quoted as saying this at the time and I believe it was mis-interpreted he Vincent not liking his passengers, when what he mean't I feel was that sidecars just wouldn't work without the added prescence of a passenger.

I don't believe a biography has ever appeared about Chris Vincent but I bet it would make an interesting read. I'm curious about the last few years of his racing career. Did he not leave then return only to find that things had moved on an he was no longer competitive? Any then there was a crash when his passenger was seriously injured. I do clearly remember when I watched him race, he appeared to be in a class of his own.

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#8502 Paul Collins

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:04

I recall him being quoted as saying this at the time and I believe it was mis-interpreted he Vincent not liking his passengers, when what he mean't I feel was that sidecars just wouldn't work without the added prescence of a passenger.

I don't believe a biography has ever appeared about Chris Vincent but I bet it would make an interesting read. I'm curious about the last few years of his racing career. Did he not leave then return only to find that things had moved on an he was no longer competitive? Any then there was a crash when his passenger was seriously injured. I do clearly remember when I watched him race, he appeared to be in a class of his own.


Was his final fling on the URS/Munch? I cant remember seeing much of him after that, or did he carry on into the two stroke era?

I remember seeing small ads in MCN from some solicitors appealing for witnesses to a crash at Scarborough which had seriously injured his passenger some years before, I think his passenger had been injured when he went down the slip road at Mere hairpin and ended up hitting a recovery van which had been left there or something like that?

#8503 Classicpics

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:38

I recall him being quoted as saying this at the time and I believe it was mis-interpreted he Vincent not liking his passengers, when what he mean't I feel was that sidecars just wouldn't work without the added prescence of a passenger.

I don't believe a biography has ever appeared about Chris Vincent but I bet it would make an interesting read. I'm curious about the last few years of his racing career. Did he not leave then return only to find that things had moved on an he was no longer competitive? Any then there was a crash when his passenger was seriously injured. I do clearly remember when I watched him race, he appeared to be in a class of his own.


Didn't he once say that a bag or spuds or cement would do the same job as a passenger?

The passenger in the signed picture is Fred Holden. (1966)

Also as his ballast at some time John Robinson, John Cooper and he once had Derek Minter in the chair!

#8504 Robin127

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:20

Wasn't Chris Vincent a pretty good solo rider too or am I thinking of someone else?


#8505 fil2.8

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:46

he certainly was , Honda 125 , and Kawasaki 250/338 spring to mind :up:

#8506 Classicpics

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:48

Wasn't Chris Vincent a pretty good solo rider too or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes, from memory, he was very good on a 125 Honda.



#8507 Classicpics

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:02

he certainly was , Honda 125 , and Kawasaki 250/338 spring to mind :up:


Ah. Kawasaki. Peter Chapman was the importer and also Vincent's sponsor.

Many years ago I remember Peter called in to see my Mum and Dad, with Kaso Fujii. He was returning from a visit with Kaso to the IoM to see his brothers grave (Toshio Fujii) on behalf of Kawasaki.





#8508 fil2.8

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:40

Ah. Kawasaki. Peter Chapman was the importer and also Vincent's sponsor.

Many years ago I remember Peter called in to see my Mum and Dad, with Kaso Fujii. He was returning from a visit with Kaso to the IoM to see his brothers grave (Toshio Fujii) on behalf of Kawasaki.



Yes , I can recall the works Kawasaki's (125 twins) at Brands , May Bank Holiday 1966 , slate grey , IIRC , I think their first outing in Europe , which normally would have been en route to the IOM , but not in that year ( seaman's strike ) with Toshio Fujii the jockey , finishing 12th , the race being won by Frank Perris , from Dave Simmonds on the Tohatsu , Frank on the Suzuki , of course :wave:


#8509 bella

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:04

Wasn't Chris Vincent a pretty good solo rider too or am I thinking of someone else?

Good enough to be a serious rival to the great Bill Ivy before Bill hit the big time.

Edited by bella, 12 January 2013 - 07:05.


#8510 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:42

Good enough to be a serious rival to the great Bill Ivy before Bill hit the big time.

...and strangely only ever on small bikes, including proddies,....paritculary since he worked for BSA for quite a while and was an ace fettler of their big twins.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 12 January 2013 - 12:45.


#8511 dommieracer

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:33

Another one of my favourite BMW

http://www.flickr.co...ers/6441959367/

and at the French GP at Rouen in 65 he had my favourite Aga Neumann alongside

My dad is in this sidecar race, number 16 i think. Gold coloured outfit.

Kevin.

#8512 Rennmax

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 17:37

My dad is in this sidecar race, number 16 i think. Gold coloured outfit.

Kevin.


How is the restoration of your father's Manx sidecar outfit going on Kevin? :wave:

#8513 billlawrence

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:15

Yep, same here Renn, plus I was calculating with Daytona being a tri-oval whether the prevailing wind at start time had the front straight sheltered plus a tail wind down the back if you ran clockwise etc etc, should have known SMBH would never have fussed over minutiae like that !
Have slipped a pic from the day into post #8482.


OK Chaps thought you would find this interesting I have found two accounts of the record attempt .A man called Mike by Christopher Hilton and the Classic Motorcycle Legends Magazine (Hailwoods quickest hour )by Charlie Rous .Both agree that Stan Hailwood and the Daytona organizers wanted the publicityand put a bit of pressure on Count Agusta to let it go ahead. The bike was Mike,s practice machine and was already packed for shipment back to Milan .Problem with Tyres ony two new ones remain Dunlop front Avon rear .Carlie Rous "We had been advised to inflate the tyers to 60psi " Mike found this too hard and they ran at 30 psi 35psi in the book .In the book it says an American who worked at the track whispered to Rous that at such and such an hour the prevailing wind usually favored going round the bowl clockwise (Rous dosnt mention this in the Magazine account)only we had to decice which way to go .Going anti clockwise 143 mph was the result .Clockwise showed 147mph so clockwise it was .Rous says if he kept low on the banking say 10 feet fron the infield instead of 20 feet he would save yards every lad so Mike rode like a road racer leaning into it the whole time .So thats it for some reason he was faster clockwise .Speedway Saturday Glen? .
Bill Lawrence

#8514 RC162

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:53

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#8515 Rennmax

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:05

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[/img]


Sachsenring '68

#2 Rex Butcher
#30 John Cooper
#27 Peter Williams
#3 Kel Carruthers
#28 Derek Woodman
#17 Billie Nelson
#19 Lehtelä
#20 Jack Findlay
#23 Rod Gould
#5 Ron Chandler in front of Dan Shorey
#26 Albert Pagani
#21 John Hartle
#6 Bo Granath

(with a little help I have to admit....)

Edited by Rennmax, 21 January 2013 - 10:09.


#8516 dommieracer

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 23:49

How is the restoration of your father's Manx sidecar outfit going on Kevin? :wave:

Hi Renn, well what i have is in boxes and will be for a while as i am suffering from the racers blight! ie; no money at the moment. As soon as it gets started i will post some pics but it will be some time as family come first. Hope you are keeping well. :) Kevin.

#8517 dommieracer

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 23:54

Sachsenring '68

#2 Rex Butcher ( I used to work on Rex's piper airplane at Biggin Hill )
#30 John Cooper
#27 Peter Williams
#3 Kel Carruthers ( Kel took photo's of me with Eddie Lawson and on his bike at Silverstone )
#28 Derek Woodman
#17 Billie Nelson
#19 Lehtelä
#20 Jack Findlay
#23 Rod Gould
#5 Ron Chandler in front of Dan Shorey
#26 Albert Pagani
#21 John Hartle ( Spare Manx engine for my dads GP outfit was an ex Hartle )
#6 Bo Granath

(with a little help I have to admit....)



#8518 GD66

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:32

#31 behind Ago is Keith Turner.

#8519 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 14:55

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That is a stunning picture of Chris Vincent. Is it possible to buy an unsigned copy of it?

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#8520 GD66

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 22:53

That is a stunning picture of Chris Vincent.


I'll say ! What about the passenger's eyes !


#8521 arielglida

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:32

Posted Image
This photo is of Dickie Dale my boyhood hero, I was lucky enough to know Dickie as a young boy and for all my efforts helping him during the 1960/61 season in South Africa he gave me the trophies he won on a 250 Arial Arrow. My question now is, the 250 Arial I beleive belonged to Stan Cooper does anyone know of Stan Cooper who was he, where did he come from, did he have any other bikes, did he sponsor any other riders.
I hope someone out there can supply some info.
cheers
Peter

Peter,
Although your message regarding Dickie Dale and Stan Cooper was posted six years ago I can now tell you that Stan Cooper was a motorcycle dealer based in Boston, Lincolnshire who obviously saw the potential of the Ariel Leader/Arrow being converted and developed into a race machine, he was one of the first to do this, he was certainly working on a twin carb engine as early as February 1960 at the same time Herman Meier was working on his Arrow racer machine that was ridden by Mike O'rourke to 7th place in that years TT, what is less well known is that Stan Cooper also took part in that same TT race on his Arrow racer but DNF due to piston seizure.
The engine was obviously rebuilt in time for Dickie Dale to take to South Africa for the 60/61 races you mentioned.

Sadly Stan Cooper passed away some years ago but I do have contact with his son, Mick Cooper although too young to remember fully the period in time his dad raced the Arrow and Dickie Dales involvement Mick himself built and rode his own Arrow racer riding in events with the Classic Racing Motorcycle Club but he's a big chap for the little Arrow and decided to sell it a couple years ago and ride a Triumph however he has since regretted doing this and is in the process of building another Arrow racer although he has also recently been given the chance to buy his orginal Arrow back.
What is more, Mick has quite a collection of memorabilia from his dads racing days including a lovely photograph of Dickie Dale sitting on the Arrow outside Stan Coopers motorcycle shop upon his return from South Africa, there is also old cine film footage of Stan riding the Arrow at the TT and other race circuits.
I dont think there are any photos though of Dickie Dale on the Arrow whilst competing in South Africa.

So what happened to Stan Coopers Arrow - after Stan had a quite serious accident whilst riding the Arrow at Cadwell Park and recovering in hospital, his wife sold the Arrow to someone local who eventually sold it to two brothers Malcolm and Raymond Bailey who raced it for a couple of seasons before part exchanging it at Sid Lawtons Shop in Southampton for a Yamaha, what happened after Sid took it in we dont know, but there is a good chance it survives somewhere in a different guise with no link to Cooper or Dale.
I've made recent contact with the Bailey Brothers who at one time also owned the Meier 1960 Arrow at the same time as the Cooper Arrow (and they wish they had them now). The Meier Arrow was also traded in to Sid Lawton same time as the Cooper Arrow, the Meier Arrow was purchased by one of Lawtons mechanics who now lives in Staffordshire but he does not know where the 1960 Meier Arrow is now or what happened to the Cooper Arrow.

One burning question I would love to know the answer to - have you still got the trophies given to you by Dickie Dale?

Regards Roger

Edited by arielglida, 29 January 2013 - 09:35.


#8522 Russell Burrows

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:34

OK Chaps thought you would find this interesting I have found two accounts of the record attempt .A man called Mike by Christopher Hilton and the Classic Motorcycle Legends Magazine (Hailwoods quickest hour )by Charlie Rous .Both agree that Stan Hailwood and the Daytona organizers wanted the publicityand put a bit of pressure on Count Agusta to let it go ahead. The bike was Mike,s practice machine and was already packed for shipment back to Milan .Problem with Tyres ony two new ones remain Dunlop front Avon rear .Carlie Rous "We had been advised to inflate the tyers to 60psi " Mike found this too hard and they ran at 30 psi 35psi in the book .In the book it says an American who worked at the track whispered to Rous that at such and such an hour the prevailing wind usually favored going round the bowl clockwise (Rous dosnt mention this in the Magazine account)only we had to decice which way to go .Going anti clockwise 143 mph was the result .Clockwise showed 147mph so clockwise it was .Rous says if he kept low on the banking say 10 feet fron the infield instead of 20 feet he would save yards every lad so Mike rode like a road racer leaning into it the whole time .So thats it for some reason he was faster clockwise .Speedway Saturday Glen? .
Bill Lawrence


It is interesting. Thanks for digging it out.

#8523 tonyed

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:07

Peter,
Although your message regarding Dickie Dale and Stan Cooper was posted six years ago I can now tell you that Stan Cooper was a motorcycle dealer based in Boston, Lincolnshire who obviously saw the potential of the Ariel Leader/Arrow being converted and developed into a race machine, he was one of the first to do this, he was certainly working on a twin carb engine as early as February 1960 at the same time Herman Meier was working on his Arrow racer machine that was ridden by Mike O'rourke to 7th place in that years TT, what is less well known is that Stan Cooper also took part in that same TT race on his Arrow racer but DNF due to piston seizure.
The engine was obviously rebuilt in time for Dickie Dale to take to South Africa for the 60/61 races you mentioned.

Sadly Stan Cooper passed away some years ago but I do have contact with his son, Mick Cooper although too young to remember fully the period in time his dad raced the Arrow and Dickie Dales involvement Mick himself built and rode his own Arrow racer riding in events with the Classic Racing Motorcycle Club but he's a big chap for the little Arrow and decided to sell it a couple years ago and ride a Triumph however he has since regretted doing this and is in the process of building another Arrow racer although he has also recently been given the chance to buy his orginal Arrow back.
What is more, Mick has quite a collection of memorabilia from his dads racing days including a lovely photograph of Dickie Dale sitting on the Arrow outside Stan Coopers motorcycle shop upon his return from South Africa, there is also old cine film footage of Stan riding the Arrow at the TT and other race circuits.
I dont think there are any photos though of Dickie Dale on the Arrow whilst competing in South Africa.

So what happened to Stan Coopers Arrow - after Stan had a quite serious accident whilst riding the Arrow at Cadwell Park and recovering in hospital, his wife sold the Arrow to someone local who eventually sold it to two brothers Malcolm and Raymond Bailey who raced it for a couple of seasons before part exchanging it at Sid Lawtons Shop in Southampton for a Yamaha, what happened after Sid took it in we dont know, but there is a good chance it survives somewhere in a different guise with no link to Cooper or Dale.
I've made recent contact with the Bailey Brothers who at one time also owned the Meier 1960 Arrow at the same time as the Cooper Arrow (and they wish they had them now). The Meier Arrow was also traded in to Sid Lawton same time as the Cooper Arrow, the Meier Arrow was purchased by one of Lawtons mechanics who now lives in Staffordshire but he does not know where the 1960 Meier Arrow is now or what happened to the Cooper Arrow.

One burning question I would love to know the answer to - have you still got the trophies given to you by Dickie Dale?

Regards Roger


Reminiscing about Arrows.

I started racing in 1969 with an Arrow. Although this was just a converted road machine (tuned iaw Motorcycle Mechanics feature ‘Make your Arrow do 100mph) we did later purchase many ex-works Herman Meier Arrow parts from Pat Walsh and also the rear wheel from the O’Rourke Arrow from a racer whose name I forget but came from Chester way.

We finished up with twin Amal concentric carbs having tries twin Wal Phillips injectors.

It was a great pity that Ariel abandoned the Arrow to concentrate on the world beating Ariel Three and Pixie (what a bunch of plonkers) as with development the Arrow (better brakes and 5 or 6 speed gearbox) could have taken on the Japs.

I also remember a 3 cylinder Arrow 350 racing at Mallory park in the late 60s.



#8524 arielglida

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:42

Reminiscing about Arrows.

I started racing in 1969 with an Arrow. Although this was just a converted road machine (tuned iaw Motorcycle Mechanics feature ‘Make your Arrow do 100mph) we did later purchase many ex-works Herman Meier Arrow parts from Pat Walsh and also the rear wheel from the O’Rourke Arrow from a racer whose name I forget but came from Chester way.

We finished up with twin Amal concentric carbs having tries twin Wal Phillips injectors.

It was a great pity that Ariel abandoned the Arrow to concentrate on the world beating Ariel Three and Pixie (what a bunch of plonkers) as with development the Arrow (better brakes and 5 or 6 speed gearbox) could have taken on the Japs.

I also remember a 3 cylinder Arrow 350 racing at Mallory park in the late 60s.


Interesting to read about your contact with someone in the Chester area, I was only there yesterday to collect a set of Classic Motorcycling Legends magazines from a book dealer so I can read up on all you senior racer boys, I need talk I'm 61yrs of age and only just started going out on track on my Arrow three years ago, just for Parade sessions mind.
Anyway back to the Chester connection, in 1961 the Ariel Development Department were busy building Arrows to be raced, with as they put it in the Despatch Records, Special engines and swinging arms, one of these machines was ordered by Kings of Bristol to take part in the TT, I've not found any info yet as to whether it was raced there that year but got to know a couple of years ago that it was found by a dealer in a shed in the Chester area, he kept the GP carbs but sold the bike on, it was rebuilt and has gone through a number of owners in recent years but the last one didnt keep any new owner details so am still trying to track it down. Got photos of it taken within the last few years but dont know where it is now..

Regarding the Ariel Pixie, it wasnt one of their better products, I've owned two and sold them on however had they fitted there own much better engine it might have sold in numbers but BSA had them fit their engine from the BSA Beagle but 50cc instead of 75cc on the Beagle. Both were sales flops.

With regard to the Ariel 3 - this was a BSA product , manufactured years after the Ariel Factory closed down, it really has nothing to do with Ariel Motors but the Ariel marque are stuck with it..

Ariel had other bikes either on the drawing board powered by the Arrow engine, single and twin carb such as the MKII Leader and Thruxton Arrow, they also built two prototypes called the TS5 in a tubular frame, also twin carb and they ran very well but they couldnt get the go ahead from the parent company BSA to put them into production, would probably have taken sales away from the BSA products of the time, having spoken recently to ex Ariel Design Draughtsman, Roger Barlow, they had high hopes of the TS5 competing with the Suzuki T20 but it never happened.
Both TS5's were rescued from an uncertain future by George Todd (Bantam Tuner) when he was working at BSA, he got them out of the factory and converted them to racers, one survives in the Pershore area and is being rebuilt to race specification and the other was with the Tandy brothers in Gloucestershire for decades until very recently when I heard they have passed it on to someone else to rebuild as a racer so we may yet see both TS5's on the race track in the future.
I cannot find a single photograph of a TS5 as built by Ariel or after conversion by George Todd, however I've not given up having emailed George who is as he puts it, Is still alive and kicking, to see whether he has any photographs in his collection. George in his 90's lives in Bavaria and is very active on Facebook.. Good for him.
Rambling on again, sorry. Roger

#8525 knickerbrook

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 14:15

A fascinating thread!
I remember George Tandy racing the Ariel at Llandow in the mid-sixties! If I'm not mistaken, he had a couple of wins on it. Big chap too, and I think he also raced a 350 Goldie. I often wondered what became of him and the bike.

#8526 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 16:48

A bit O/Y here but George Brown, and his son Tony, used to successfully sprint an Ariel Arrow with a dustbin fairing and it held a number of World and National records.

#8527 khsuzukitr500

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 18:03

A fascinating thread!
I remember George Tandy racing the Ariel at Llandow in the mid-sixties! If I'm not mistaken, he had a couple of wins on it. Big chap too, and I think he also raced a 350 Goldie. I often wondered what became of him and the bike.


Hi Barry,
I think GODFREY BENSON raced one of these at ABERDARE, as you are in the SWANSEA area maybe you can confirm this with some of your contacts.
Hope you are keeping well. :wave:

#8528 pmbboy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 19:41

Peter,
Although your message regarding Dickie Dale and Stan Cooper was posted six years ago I can now tell you that Stan Cooper was a motorcycle dealer based in Boston, Lincolnshire who obviously saw the potential of the Ariel Leader/Arrow being converted and developed into a race machine, he was one of the first to do this, he was certainly working on a twin carb engine as early as February 1960 at the same time Herman Meier was working on his Arrow racer machine that was ridden by Mike O'rourke to 7th place in that years TT, what is less well known is that Stan Cooper also took part in that same TT race on his Arrow racer but DNF due to piston seizure.
The engine was obviously rebuilt in time for Dickie Dale to take to South Africa for the 60/61 races you mentioned.

Sadly Stan Cooper passed away some years ago but I do have contact with his son, Mick Cooper although too young to remember fully the period in time his dad raced the Arrow and Dickie Dales involvement Mick himself built and rode his own Arrow racer riding in events with the Classic Racing Motorcycle Club but he's a big chap for the little Arrow and decided to sell it a couple years ago and ride a Triumph however he has since regretted doing this and is in the process of building another Arrow racer although he has also recently been given the chance to buy his orginal Arrow back.
What is more, Mick has quite a collection of memorabilia from his dads racing days including a lovely photograph of Dickie Dale sitting on the Arrow outside Stan Coopers motorcycle shop upon his return from South Africa, there is also old cine film footage of Stan riding the Arrow at the TT and other race circuits.
I dont think there are any photos though of Dickie Dale on the Arrow whilst competing in South Africa.

So what happened to Stan Coopers Arrow - after Stan had a quite serious accident whilst riding the Arrow at Cadwell Park and recovering in hospital, his wife sold the Arrow to someone local who eventually sold it to two brothers Malcolm and Raymond Bailey who raced it for a couple of seasons before part exchanging it at Sid Lawtons Shop in Southampton for a Yamaha, what happened after Sid took it in we dont know, but there is a good chance it survives somewhere in a different guise with no link to Cooper or Dale.
I've made recent contact with the Bailey Brothers who at one time also owned the Meier 1960 Arrow at the same time as the Cooper Arrow (and they wish they had them now). The Meier Arrow was also traded in to Sid Lawton same time as the Cooper Arrow, the Meier Arrow was purchased by one of Lawtons mechanics who now lives in Staffordshire but he does not know where the 1960 Meier Arrow is now or what happened to the Cooper Arrow.

One burning question I would love to know the answer to - have you still got the trophies given to you by Dickie Dale?

Regards Roger


Roger,
Yes I still have them it is just three but they always bring back great memories,

I cannot remember if Dickie won any races but was always at the front as he was in all of his rides. My involvement was as a result of my small hands as I could change the jets without removing the carbs. The bike was put onto methanol which was allowed for racing in South Africa by my father Doug and so getting the carburation correct was a long job which was carried out at the Roy Hesketh circuit, it was obviously successfull as I do not think there were any seizures.

cheers
Pete


#8529 Russell Burrows

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 19:49

For the non FB users. Phil O'Brien and Ron Toombs at Hume Weir, 1970. Phil is on the Drixton Aermacchi he brought back from Europe at the end of '69. This was the bike that made its way back to England with Tony Foale. Ron's aboard the famous Henderson Matchless, arguably one of the quickest four stroke singles ever made. Photo by kind permission of Phil O'Brien.
Posted Image

#8530 billlawrence

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:46

Reminiscing about Arrows.

I started racing in 1969 with an Arrow. Although this was just a converted road machine (tuned iaw Motorcycle Mechanics feature ‘Make your Arrow do 100mph) we did later purchase many ex-works Herman Meier Arrow parts from Pat Walsh and also the rear wheel from the O’Rourke Arrow from a racer whose name I forget but came from Chester way.

We finished up with twin Amal concentric carbs having tries twin Wal Phillips injectors.

It was a great pity that Ariel abandoned the Arrow to concentrate on the world beating Ariel Three and Pixie (what a bunch of plonkers) as with development the Arrow (better brakes and 5 or 6 speed gearbox) could have taken on the Japs.

I also remember a 3 cylinder Arrow 350 racing at Mallory park in the late 60s.

I remember Ted Broad ran a Arrow and Bill Boddice made up a 500 four for his sidecar dont think anything came of them.
Bill Lawrence

#8531 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:56

For the non FB users. Phil O'Brien and Ron Toombs at Hume Weir, 1970. Phil is on the Drixton Aermacchi he brought back from Europe at the end of '69. This was the bike that made its way back to England with Tony Foale. Ron's aboard the famous Henderson Matchless, arguably one of the quickest four stroke singles ever made. Photo by kind permission of Phil O'Brien.
Posted Image

OK, let me see if I understood this correctly Russ. The 56 is Phil O'Brien on the Aermacchi, while the 63 must be Ron Toombs on the Machless.
I assume the macchi is a 350 ??? so would that make the Matchbox also a 350??? which seems unlikely if it was so quick, and anyway, did Matchless ever build a 350???. I presume it was a G50 500 then. Looking at it though, the pipe looks like nothing I've ever seen on a G50, in fact it almost looks like an expansion chamber, which obviously it can`t be. Also, if I didn't (and I obviously don't) know better I`d say that was a TZ brake on the front of that bike, so Russ, you have confussed the hell outta me. :rotfl:
Toombs looks like he was a fairly large lad.

#8532 GD66

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:37

Here's what lies upstream...

Posted Image



And a pic of the front brake in the bike these days...but the Hume Weir pic does look like a TZ brake.

Posted Image

Pics by Murray Hill.

Edited by GD66, 30 January 2013 - 09:39.


#8533 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:05

OK, let me see if I understood this correctly Russ. The 56 is Phil O'Brien on the Aermacchi, while the 63 must be Ron Toombs on the Machless.
I assume the macchi is a 350 ??? so would that make the Matchbox also a 350??? which seems unlikely if it was so quick, and anyway, did Matchless ever build a 350???. I presume it was a G50 500 then. Looking at it though, the pipe looks like nothing I've ever seen on a G50, in fact it almost looks like an expansion chamber, which obviously it can`t be. Also, if I didn't (and I obviously don't) know better I`d say that was a TZ brake on the front of that bike, so Russ, you have confussed the hell outta me. :rotfl:
Toombs looks like he was a fairly large lad.

http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=601s
Sorry Sarge, I assumed too much.
Perhaps only the cases remained from the original G50 motor, one that I think came via Geoff Monty. It looks pretty agricultural, but it was very quick and everyone loved to see it getting among the strokers. It is a TR/TD front stopper fitted in the pic. Toombsie was never svelte like, Sarge, and in 1970 was no spring chicken either, but he was bloody quick.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 30 January 2013 - 11:25.


#8534 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:29

http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=601s
Sorry Sarge, I assumed too much.
Perhaps only the cases remained from the original G50 motor, one that I think came via Geoff Monty. It looks pretty agricultural, but it was very quick and everyone loved to see it getting among the strokers. It is a TR/TD front stopper fitted in the pic. Toombsie was never svelte like, Sarge, and in 1970 was no spring chicken either, but he was bloody quick.

Thanks Russ. Loved the link. :up:

#8535 larryd

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 13:39

Thanks Russ. Loved the link. :up:


Phil's Macchi is on Light-coloured plates, so Yellow for 500 class.

Either it's a fablon special (we've all run them in our time . . . . .) or else a 382/408 motor??

Mind you, fablon spls were usually to run bigger motors in class rather than smaller!!!

I've heard of the Henderson donkey - very impressive engne.


#8536 knickerbrook

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 14:09

Posted Image

Bloody hell :eek: !
Any more info on that thing!







#8537 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 14:35

Phil's Macchi is on Light-coloured plates, so Yellow for 500 class.

Either it's a fablon special (we've all run them in our time . . . . .) or else a 382/408 motor??

Mind you, fablon spls were usually to run bigger motors in class rather than smaller!!!

I've heard of the Henderson donkey - very impressive engne.

Back then, Larry, all number back grounds were yellow in Oz. They also ran lots of unlimited races, as well as conventional classes. I think I used to have around five rides per meeting on my little Macchi.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 30 January 2013 - 15:03.


#8538 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 14:36

Posted Image

Bloody hell :eek: !
Any more info on that thing!

http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=601s

#8539 knickerbrook

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 15:12

Thanks Russ - how interesting!
I'd love to see how it would perform today against the modern breed of replica Manxes, with their ultra-short strokes and beefed-up (one-piece?) cranks. Such has been the development of the Manx in recent years that they are now knocking out 60 horses at god knows how many revs! I've long thought that there was similar potential to develop the G50 further, especially with not having the mechanical losses that must be inherrent in the Manxes' bevel drive - and it's a lighter motor!
Incidentally, I remember Coleshill (Brian?) used to run a pair of 7R/G50's in a Manx frame in the sixties, with I think, Brian Hunter aboard.


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#8540 StanN

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 16:12

Peter,

As you were around with Dickie Dale in 1960/61, do you remember if he still had his NSU Sportmax at that time? Did he have the NSU in SA or only the Arrow, as they would both run in the 250 class?

Thanks,
Stan

#8541 arielglida

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 19:34

Roger,
Yes I still have them it is just three but they always bring back great memories,

I cannot remember if Dickie won any races but was always at the front as he was in all of his rides. My involvement was as a result of my small hands as I could change the jets without removing the carbs. The bike was put onto methanol which was allowed for racing in South Africa by my father Doug and so getting the carburation correct was a long job which was carried out at the Roy Hesketh circuit, it was obviously successfull as I do not think there were any seizures.

cheers
Pete

Pete,
Thats excellent news regarding the Trophies, thank you for looking after them all these years.
I've emailed Stan Coopers son, Mick and made him aware that you have the trophies, to say he is pleased that they have survived is an understatement.
Mick became aware of your assistance to Dickie Dale from an article in Classic Racer magazine, dont know which issue, and tried to make contact with you even telephoning a garage where you and Dickie had been based during that race even but the person who answered the phone did not know you, again I dont know how long ago this was.
Mick Cooper would very much like to have contact with you, I dont know whether its allowed to exchange email address on this forum, I've tried to send you a personal message but that wasnt allowed.
I'll attach photo of Dickie Dale sitting on the Arrow when he got back to England taken outside Stan Coopers shop with Stan Cooper standing alongside, when I can work out how to do it.

For info, Stan Cooper passed away 18 years ago.

Roger




#8542 GD66

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 22:56

Back then, Larry, all number back grounds were yellow in Oz.




Correct ! Dave Keenan and Trevor Discombe at Amaroo Park, 1971.
Posted Image


Incidentally, Dave Keenan bought that TD2 new in 1970 and has raced it every year since ! Gotta be some sort of record.
Pictured at the Historic nats in Queensland, 2009.

Posted Image

Edited by GD66, 30 January 2013 - 23:02.


#8543 pmbboy

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 22:12

Peter,

As you were around with Dickie Dale in 1960/61, do you remember if he still had his NSU Sportmax at that time? Did he have the NSU in SA or only the Arrow, as they would both run in the 250 class?

Thanks,
Stan

Stan,
I was rather young to know all the information but to the best of my knowledge Dickie had 2 Nortons and the Arrow in SA in 1960/61, the previous season 1959/60 he had a 7R and a G50 which I beleive were Tom Arter bikes.

Peter


#8544 drumwrecker

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 20:25

Reading through this thread I was sad to find that Lace Capon had died. I didn't know him well other than being a member of the Greenwich MCC with him.
In the early to mid sixties he raced a 125cc honda Benly that did or used to belong to George Dewer. Also I think I remember he bought a desmo Ducati twin, ex Hailwood I believe.
Lance Capon on a Honda 125cc

Edited by drumwrecker, 01 February 2013 - 20:27.


#8545 germanty

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:03

Stan,
I was rather young to know all the information but to the best of my knowledge Dickie had 2 Nortons and the Arrow in SA in 1960/61, the previous season 1959/60 he had a 7R and a G50 which I beleive were Tom Arter bikes.

Peter


Posted Image

Dale on the BMW at Bray Hill in the 1958 Senior TT. Duke was also in the same race on a BMW (No 20).

#8546 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 17:13

Shots from your impressive archive are always welcome, german, thanks.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 27 February 2013 - 17:14.


#8547 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 17:32

Shots from your impressive archive are always welcome, german, thanks.

Hey Russ, where've you been hiding yourself? Hope everything is well with you.
Welcome back anyhow.

#8548 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 22:34

Hey Russ, where've you been hiding yourself? Hope everything is well with you.
Welcome back anyhow.


Thanks, Sarge. Been away from the smoke for a while :wave:

#8549 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 18:16

Glad you are well Russ.
How about this for a who's who. I met this elderly gentleman when I was over in S Africain one year, about 1969 I think. He raced a 250 Norton at the time, which in itself was rather unusual, although if I recall correctly, he purchased a TZ 250 Yamaha, on which he sadly lost his life a year or two later. I must point out, he was 72 at the time, and I have no idea why the authorities allowed him to compete. I believe there was an a bit of a stink at the time, but it all seemed to disappear without any one being held responsible, which I thought was rather unusual. OK, I'm all for allowing someone to do their thing, but really, where do you draw the line?
Anyway, a lovely old fella. Who is he?

Posted Image



#8550 Rennmax

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 18:35

Frank Cope?