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Motorcycle racing; 1949-1968 nostalgia


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#8651 Russell Burrows

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 22:29

:clap:


Thanks, Hemeyla.


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#8652 GD66

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 23:05

Finishing order : Ago, Molloy, Milani, Stasa, Woodman, Simmonds.
Pasolini crashed twice.


It's the helmet that threw us out : used to seeing Bergamonti in a silver helmet...
Posted Image

Edited by GD66, 22 March 2013 - 23:11.


#8653 HEMEYLA

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:37

7.Williams, 8.Hoppe, 9. Shorey, 10.Chandler, 11.Nash, 12.Rosner, 13.Thalhammer, 14.Bojer, 15.Granath, 16.Swart, 17.Moojen.

#8654 Russell Burrows

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:13

Pasolini crashed twice.

Posted Image
About to do it again ?


#8655 Rennmax

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:24

Nice one

http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1558.l2649

#8656 GD66

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 13:38

Wonder where Jules got hold of that one ? It's a ripper...but 18 bids with 4 days still to go... why do people do that ?


#8657 Paroni09

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 16:23

Nice one

http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1558.l2649

Yes, very nice and nearly complete.

#8658 Paroni09

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 16:26

Posted Image
About to do it again ?


No, he 's going to the paddock after his crash.

#8659 Robin127

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 22:57

I can get all bar one, I think.
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Dan Shorey still had that 350 in the late 90's, Bernie Chequer (who was Shorey's mechanic) rode it a some CRMC meetings. It looked the same and unfortunately it was completely outclassed, it still had a 4 speed box and chain primary drive and was no match for the modern Manxes or 350 Ducatis that had 30 years more development in them.

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#8660 graham houlihan

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:05

Nice one

http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1558.l2649


He's looking for a quick (and tidy) profit on this album. It was sold in an UK auction about 2 weeks ago for £275 (plus commission, etc) and now is at £500+ on ebay and still not hit the reserve (that's why so many bids have been put in to find the reserve price)


#8661 fil2.8

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:27

He's looking for a quick (and tidy) profit on this album. It was sold in an UK auction about 2 weeks ago for £275 (plus commission, etc) and now is at £500+ on ebay and still not hit the reserve (that's why so many bids have been put in to find the reserve price)



and then £10 delivery :rolleyes:


#8662 fil2.8

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:31

and then £10 delivery :rolleyes:


the expression ' greed ' springs to mind , all that is wrong with society , nothing wrong with profit , but that is slightly different , I think :mad:


#8663 GD66

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:48

But that's ebay, Phil, stuff's only worth what people will pay. Keen as I have always been on motorsport, I've never had any interest at all in autographs. I will always recall an obnoxious drunk acquaintance of mine pestering Hank Marvin in a pub for an autograph, to be signed on a soggy beer coaster that I'll bet wouldn't have even made it home that night. The emergence of those Superstars and Legends-type shops that sprung up flogging any merchandise bearing a sportsman's signature for ridiculous money "for the den" put a seal on it as well. I can appreciate the fervour and enthusiasm the original owner exuded when he originally compiled the booklet, and hats off for a job well done, but surely the personal moment of hero contact at the collection of the autograph is the cherished memory : to someone else over 50 years later, why would it be worth over 500 quid ? :confused:
Autographs...they're like a***holes.... :rolleyes:...everybody's got one...

Edited by GD66, 26 March 2013 - 12:08.


#8664 bella

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 13:45

But that's ebay, Phil, stuff's only worth what people will pay. Keen as I have always been on motorsport, I've never had any interest at all in autographs. I will always recall an obnoxious drunk acquaintance of mine pestering Hank Marvin in a pub for an autograph, to be signed on a soggy beer coaster that I'll bet wouldn't have even made it home that night. The emergence of those Superstars and Legends-type shops that sprung up flogging any merchandise bearing a sportsman's signature for ridiculous money "for the den" put a seal on it as well. I can appreciate the fervour and enthusiasm the original owner exuded when he originally compiled the booklet, and hats off for a job well done, but surely the personal moment of hero contact at the collection of the autograph is the cherished memory : to someone else over 50 years later, why would it be worth over 500 quid ? :confused:
Autographs...they're like a***holes.... :rolleyes:...everybody's got one...


Same here, its a signature so what!

#8665 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:19

Is this Herr Hoppe out front?
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#8666 Matthias

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:32

Yes, this is Karl Hoppe mounted on this bike:

Posted Image

Ago 2nd, Rob Bron 3rd

#8667 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:35

Yes, this is Karl Hoppe mounted on this bike:

Posted Image

Ago 2nd, Rob Bron 3rd

Thanks Mathias, and yes for the others, what about the guy at the rear?

#8668 exclubracer

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:42

Thanks Mathias, and yes for the others, what about the guy at the rear?

It's Paul Smart.

#8669 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:55

It's Paul Smart.

Yes, Paul on Joe Francis' Seeley in what must be 1970. Too easy?

#8670 Bernard

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 23:32

Yes, Paul on Joe Francis' Seeley in what must be 1970. Too easy?

Do you think the other guy in the Saragossa pic of Dan Shorey is also Karl Hoppe as didnt he ride a G50

#8671 exclubracer

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 23:47

Yes, Paul on Joe Francis' Seeley in what must be 1970. Too easy?

Yes Russell, an easy one. No mistaking the style (or the chin)

Thankfully PS saw the error of his ways and rode the Joe Francis 2 stroke thingy Yamahas afterwards. :D

#8672 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 23:47

Do you think the other guy in the Saragossa pic of Dan Shorey is also Karl Hoppe as didnt he ride a G50

Thanks identifying the location, Bernard, I didn't know. I'm a bit vague on detail about Hoppe. Did you get down to Saragosa?

#8673 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 23:51

Yes Russell, an easy one. No mistaking the style (or the chin)

Thankfully PS saw the error of his ways and rode the Joe Francis 2 stroke thingy Yamahas afterwards. :D

Before going to Ducati and BSA/Triumph, that's right.  ;)

#8674 Russell Burrows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 23:56

Yes, this is Karl Hoppe mounted on this bike:

Posted Image

It looks to be horribly tall.

#8675 exclubracer

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 00:00

Before going to Ducati and BSA/Triumph, that's right. ;)

If memory serves me, he rode the Joe Francis Yamahas in '71, Triumph-3 in '71, Ducati in '72 and Kawasaki-3 in '73.

#8676 Bernard

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 00:02

Thanks identifying the location, Bernard, I didn't know. I'm a bit vague on detail about Hoppe. Did you get down to Saragosa?

I found the reference to Saragossa on the site the photo originated from. No I did plan to go to Monjuich Park one year for the Spanish GP but as you were only limited to I recall £25 you could take out of the country it was a trip too far so went to St Wendel instead

#8677 Paroni09

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:59

Is this Herr Hoppe out front?
Posted Image


Yes it is.
#3 Karl Hoppe Urs,dnf, #1 Giacomo Agostini Mv Agusta,1th, #40 Rob Bron Suzuki,6th, #13 Paul Smart Seeley,5th.
500 cc class Dutch TT Assen-Strubben corner 1970.

#8678 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:10

Imagine a photographer being allowed, or even wanting, to stand in that position today. LOL.

#8679 HEMEYLA

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:20

TT Assen 1970 ............ click.

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#8680 GD66

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:01

Wow, that was great ! Thanks, Hemeyla !

Fellow TNFers, when you click on the link, it takes you to a pic of Nieto, de Vries and Canellas, thence to the 1970 season. But if you back it up to the top of the page, there's an index there to a STACK more stuff, both International and Dutch national meetings from a number of years. You will recognise many of the international pics from the old Motor Cycling mag, but the national coverage includes plenty of good graphic race pics, a real trove of interesting racing from back in the day. Nice find !

Edited by GD66, 28 March 2013 - 10:24.


#8681 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:32

Yes, thanks from me too, Hemeyla. The Seeley on page 1059 is almost certainly the bike I sat on in Ron Chandler's workshop in the following year when discussing how much money needed to change hands.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 28 March 2013 - 09:35.


#8682 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:01

Yes it is.
#3 Karl Hoppe Urs,dnf, #1 Giacomo Agostini Mv Agusta,1th, #40 Rob Bron Suzuki,6th, #13 Paul Smart Seeley,5th.
500 cc class Dutch TT Assen-Strubben corner 1970.

Since he was giving away about 25bhp to most of the strokers, that's not a bad ride from Smartie.

#8683 Matthias

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:21

Posted Image

It looks to be horribly tall.


This isn't a tall bike at all.

Posted Image


#8684 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:56

Posted Image
This isn't a tall bike at all.

Look at that riding position, seems pretty high to me. Since the rider makes up a big chunk of the overall weight, gotta get his arse as low as possible into the bike. The motor on the Munch is slung high too. Maybe this is why old Karl looks a bit uncomfotrable in the photo?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 28 March 2013 - 11:00.


#8685 Matthias

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:33

Karl's riding style was popular in those days especially in Germany. Other riders as Ernst Hiller showed this also.
Kind of a MX style, quite the opposite of hanging off. The last rider showing this in GPs was probably Boet van Dulmen.

B.t.w. This is not a Munch, it is an URS engine (by Helmut Fath) in a Metisse frame.
It was named a Munch by the team owner Bell, who owned the Munch factory also. This all went bankrupt mid of the season 1970.

#8686 Russell Burrows

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 15:07

Karl's riding style was popular in those days especially in Germany. Other riders as Ernst Hiller showed this also.
Kind of a MX style, quite the opposite of hanging off. The last rider showing this in GPs was probably Boet van Dulmen.

B.t.w. This is not a Munch, it is an URS engine (by Helmut Fath) in a Metisse frame.
It was named a Munch by the team owner Bell, who owned the Munch factory also. This all went bankrupt mid of the season 1970.

Mattias, It's true there were a few blokes around who forgot they weren't on their KTT Velos anymore; I see Karl was in his late forties in 1970.

Back in the day, Mettise framed bikes weren't as successful as their obvious main competitor, Seeley, a situation that I believe continues to this day in Classic racing. While I've never gone around measuring their respective height and weight, I know in my water that this was/is not unconnected with the beautifully made and good to look at Rickman product being taller and heavier. I think Seeley himself makes some reference to this in his book, or I might have made that bit up. The earlier Seeley version of the URS, which I saw at Brands when it first appeared, does appear to be lower and more compact than the Mettise framed bike. If memory serves, the later adoption of the Rickman frame had as much to do with personal animosity and politics as any other consideration. Presumably this was a custom built frame for the Fath motor, but it appears to follow the lines of the design that housed the 7R/G50 and other units. Too tall !

Edited by Russell Burrows, 28 March 2013 - 15:34.


#8687 armchair

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 23:34

Excuse me, all of you: I didn't know there was an appropriate thread for Duke's birthday.

"March 29th marks Geoffrey Duke (OBE)'s 90th birthday.

I happened to meet him four years ago at the Monza circuit, where Team Gilera for 2009 was introduced coinciding with the 100th anniversary of the manufacturer. We were presented with a book, which I has signed by both G.Duke and Marco Simoncelli. Needless to say, everytime I see the book on its shelf, I can't help thinking that the old riding ace is still with us while the younger isn't anymore.

Marco/armchair from Milan, Italy"

Edited by armchair, 07 April 2013 - 17:31.


#8688 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:34

The URS-Metisse is still a beauty to my eyes. An inch or two lower at the back perhaps but so what?

Edited by Paul Rochdale, 29 March 2013 - 10:35.


#8689 GD66

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:54

Possibly that big ugly cutaway in the tank for the vertical set of fuel injection trumpets doesn't help the lines. The line of the crank is only a bit above the wheel centres, but it does look a bit short and high : wonder what it weighed ?

#8690 Russell Burrows

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:21

Posted Image

Posted Image
Has Barnett pulled much of the padding out of the seat?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 29 March 2013 - 12:25.


#8691 germanty

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 13:31

Posted Image

Posted Image
Has Barnett pulled much of the padding out of the seat?


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Apparently this bike nearly became a Norton! Accounts suggest that Joe Craig almost bought it.

At the same time the Vanwall race car engine was being designed by Norton engineer Leo Kuzmicki and Joe Craig, and was essentially four Norton 500cc engines combined into one 2-liter unit. Vandervell was chairman of Norton at the time.

#8692 larryd

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 15:37

Posted Image

Apparently this bike nearly became a Norton! Accounts suggest that Joe Craig almost bought it.

At the same time the Vanwall race car engine was being designed by Norton engineer Leo Kuzmicki and Joe Craig, and was essentially four Norton 500cc engines combined into one 2-liter unit. Vandervell was chairman of Norton at the time.


French genius, Pierre Nougier by name, designed and built that 500 four - his son raced it in France.

He also built highly original 125s & 250s - every one of them quick.

Craig did indeed do a deal for the "four" but Norton, as throughout their business career, didn't have the money to pay for it . . . . . . . .


:down:

Later - sorry Tony E, I missed your earlier post in the other thread !!

Edited by larryd, 29 March 2013 - 15:40.


#8693 RC162

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 18:26

Wonder where Jules got hold of that one ? It's a ripper...but 18 bids with 4 days still to go... why do people do that ?


Looks like the drinks are on Mr Ryder. Sold for 2820 of our wonderful pounds.

#8694 graham houlihan

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 17:52

Looks like the drinks are on Mr Ryder. Sold for 2820 of our wonderful pounds.


That's almost unbelievable.....




#8695 Russell Burrows

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:15

Interesting shot:
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#8696 knickerbrook

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:55

First instinct was Fred Stevens - then hang on, isn't that Chris Vincent?

#8697 Russell Burrows

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 13:12

First instinct was Fred Stevens - then hang on, isn't that Chris Vincent?

Yes is it. Who knew?

#8698 fil2.8

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 14:46

Yes is it. Who knew?




Well , Russ , not me , :blush: , saw him many times on smaller bikes , where he was very handy , can't remember seeing him on a G50 :confused: , but that looks about 1965 , I reckon

#8699 Russell Burrows

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 19:12

Well , Russ , not me , :blush: , saw him many times on smaller bikes , where he was very handy , can't remember seeing him on a G50 :confused: , but that looks about 1965 , I reckon

Yes, Phil, on one of Kirby's bikes, around the mid sixties. I don't think I remember him on them at all. But then I clocked a pic of Pickrell on a Kirby 7R recently, and I don't recall him riding them either.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 04 April 2013 - 22:49.


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#8700 billlawrence

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:00

Yes, Phil, on one of Kirby's bikes, around the mid sixties. I don't think I remember him on them at all. But then I clocked a pic of Pickrell on a Kirby 7R recently, and I don't recall him riding them either.

I remember Vincent on the G50 at Brands he didnt go very well maybe the photo is the old paddock at Brands .
Bill Lawrence