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Motorcycle racing; 1949-1968 nostalgia


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#8701 Russell Burrows

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 14:08

I remember Vincent on the G50 at Brands he didnt go very well maybe the photo is the old paddock at Brands .
Bill Lawrence

So in a race rather than a having a bit of a spin on a Wednesday ? The people around in the pic does suggest it's a race day.

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#8702 haroldh

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:31

So in a race rather than a having a bit of a spin on a Wednesday ? The people around in the pic does suggest it's a race day.


Off topic and a bit cheeky but I know you gents have a wealth of info could you answer this?
Could anyone tell me the results and starters for the 1962 Dutch GP. I'm mainly looking for the sidecar information. I'm looking for all the riders to see if my dad was there. I think it may have been a wet event so causing a lot of non finishers? Any information greatly recieved, and any photos too. Many thanks.

Harold

Edited by haroldh, 06 April 2013 - 09:01.


#8703 haroldh

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:57

[quote name='haroldh' date='Apr 6 2013, 09:31' post='6213533']
Off topic and a bit cheeky nut I know you gents have a wealth of info could you answer this?
Could anyone tell me the results and starters for the 1962 Dutch GP. I'm mainly looking for the sidecar information. I'm looking for all the riders to see if my dad was there. I think it may have been a wet event so causing a lot of non finishers? Any information greatly recieved, and any photos too. Many thanks.

Harold

Edited by haroldh, 06 April 2013 - 08:58.


#8704 Russell Burrows

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:16

Not your dad's race, Harold, but worth a couple of minutes viewing time :
http://www.beeldenge...4/tt-assen-1962

#8705 haroldh

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:15

Not your dad's race, Harold, but worth a couple of minutes viewing time :
http://www.beeldenge...4/tt-assen-1962

Thanks Russ. I wonder if someone has the sidecars on film?

Harold

#8706 billlawrence

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:12

Afraid the old grey matter is playing up again. Its of course the 1959 Senior that was wet.
I think this picture of Roy Ingram pushing in to finish whilst Derek Powell rides past epitomises this race. Winner Surtees looked like a drowned rat at the end.

Robin did move away - not sure where though. I am given to understand he sold his is business for a lot of money. Two bed Terrace houses sell where he had his business for 5 million +

Posted Image

Sad to say Derek Powell passed away a few months ago aged 84 Bill Lawrence

#8707 Russell Burrows

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:27

In case anyone missed the sale of Derek's 7R from a few years ago.
http://www.bonhams.c.../16253/lot/276/

#8708 knickerbrook

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 13:29

An interesting description by Bonhams - what a great machine to own!

#8709 Russell Burrows

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 15:15

An interesting description by Bonhams - what a great machine to own!

No mention of the rubber hose and jubilee clips used to mount the carb. And 'frame and forks essentially unchanged'...... :well:

What a lovely thing though. Pretty impressive photography too.

#8710 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 14:48

Posted Image
I can ID the bloke on the left, but I've only a slight inkling as to who the other guy is. Anyone know who they are?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 11 April 2013 - 15:04.


#8711 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 15:42

[img]
I can ID the bloke on the left, but I've only a slight inkling as to who the other guy is. Anyone know who they are?

Stewart Graham on the right?

#8712 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 19:41

Stewart Graham on the right?

I'm not sure who he is, but I'm pretty certain it's not Stuart, Sarge. This might be a bit half arsed: I have an idea it might be Norman Huntingford who was killed in, I think, '66 at Assen during the outfit race. This is based on nothing more than the memory of a photograph that appeared in, I think, Seeley's book. Since I can't get access to the book right now, I can't check. Maybe someone else can? Quite why though he should be sitting astride a Kirby G50 at Spa, is something I can't easily answer. Of course this whole notion might be entirely wrong-headed. The other G50 pilot was pretty well known back then.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 11 April 2013 - 21:38.


#8713 Robin127

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:50

I'm not sure who he is, but I'm pretty certain it's not Stuart, Sarge. This might be a bit half arsed: I have an idea it might be Norman Huntingford who was killed in, I think, '66 at Assen during the outfit race. This is based on nothing more than the memory of a photograph that appeared in, I think, Seeley's book. Since I can't get access to the book right now, I can't check. Maybe someone else can? Quite why though he should be sitting astride a Kirby G50 at Spa, is something I can't easily answer. Of course this whole notion might be entirely wrong-headed. The other G50 pilot was pretty well known back then.


My first thought was Stuart Graham as well. I have the Seeley book in front of me and I can see a resemblance but I don't think it is Norman Huntingford. If it is the photo would have to be from 1965 as he was killed at the Dutch TT in 1966 the week before the Belgian GP. Incidentally, Graham was second at Spa in 1966 riding a Matchless.


#8714 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:41

My first thought was Stuart Graham as well. I have the Seeley book in front of me and I can see a resemblance but I don't think it is Norman Huntingford. If it is the photo would have to be from 1965 as he was killed at the Dutch TT in 1966 the week before the Belgian GP. Incidentally, Graham was second at Spa in 1966 riding a Matchless.

Thanks for having a look. It's almost certainly Spa, '65. Didn't Graham ride a 7R and G50 with Peel fairings for someone up north, Jim Ball was it ?

#8715 GD66

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:15

I'm not sure who he is, but I'm pretty certain it's not Stuart, Sarge.

The other G50 pilot was pretty well known back then.



Is that Roger Hunter, Russell ?

I'm not convinved it's Stuart Graham, either....might be persuaded if the mystery man was....er....more...dentally enhanced... :blush:


#8716 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:33

Hugh Anderson.

#8717 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 14:04

Is that Roger Hunter, Russell ?

I'm not convinved it's Stuart Graham, either....might be persuaded if the mystery man was....er....more...dentally enhanced... :blush:

Roger it is. Well done, Glenn. According to the Bonham's blurb he also later rode the 'works' 7R for Brian Coleshill, this though must have been after his stint with Kirby.

#8718 GD66

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:52

Helmet again. Hunter was pretty much the last bloke Kirby signed up, and I recall thinking at the time : of all available riders, why would Tom pick him? But he quickly got stuck in, and went pretty well, certainly don't recall him firing it up the road which is always a bonus.

#8719 Robin127

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 23:22

Helmet again. Hunter was pretty much the last bloke Kirby signed up, and I recall thinking at the time : of all available riders, why would Tom pick him? But he quickly got stuck in, and went pretty well, certainly don't recall him firing it up the road which is always a bonus.


What about Alan Barnett? or even Jim Harvey?


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#8720 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:40

Helmet again. Hunter was pretty much the last bloke Kirby signed up, and I recall thinking at the time : of all available riders, why would Tom pick him? But he quickly got stuck in, and went pretty well, certainly don't recall him firing it up the road which is always a bonus.

What about Alan Barnett? or even Jim Harvey?

Yes, they came later, with Paul Selleck being the last ever in the early seventies. Roger left Kirby around the same time as Ron Chandler, Glenn, which if memory serves was '65. He was pretty good, almost winning the Manx in, I think, '63. Unusally, and like Chandler - who he was pretty much on a par with, although RH was quicker on the Island - he rode Tom's immaculate bikes for about three years (63 -5).

Edited by Russell Burrows, 13 April 2013 - 08:44.


#8721 GD66

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:24

I might have to pack it in. I don't recall Ron Chandler riding Tom's bikes at all. I thought he rode for Reg Kirby, with a blue and white fairing.
Off topic, but I heard Ron had a huge crash at Hampton Downs a few weeks back, broke some bones and trowelled his triple. Hope he's repairing ok.

#8722 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 14:03

I might have to pack it in. I don't recall Ron Chandler riding Tom's bikes at all. I thought he rode for Reg Kirby, with a blue and white fairing.
Off topic, but I heard Ron had a huge crash at Hampton Downs a few weeks back, broke some bones and trowelled his triple. Hope he's repairing ok.


Blimey, me too, he must be nudging eighty nowadays. Reg entered Ron after he split with Tom, although the bikes were Ron's. I spoke to him a few years ago at Brands about this period: Ron felt that being unsponsored after leaving Tom's team was a bit of a backward step, and as Reg was obliging..... He intimated too that the deal done with Reg might just have needled brother Tom.


#8723 Russell Burrows

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 15:05

Posted Image
While we're on things Kirby  ;) just found this. Was it Ron Chandler who told me that back in his time with the team, fifty percent of all prize and start money was handed back to Tom Kirby ? I can't honestly recall. Maybe I read this somewhere or perhaps even dreamt it, but it got into my head somehow. If it was the case, not sure if it was a good deal or not ? It was definitely Ron who told me that some of Kirby's bikes were quick and some were less so.

#8724 Paul Collins

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 15:22

Posted Image
While we're on things Kirby ;) just found this. Was it Ron Chandler who told me that back in his time with the team, fifty percent of all prize and start money was handed back to Tom Kirby ? I can't honestly recall. Maybe I read this somewhere or perhaps even dreamt it, but it got into my head somehow. If it was the case, not sure if it was a good deal or not ? It was definitely Ron who told me that some of Kirby's bikes were quick and some were less so.


is this the great Alan Barnett/Peter Williams dice in the Senior TT? think I can see a tyre tucked in behind Barnett, before my time but I understand they spent most of the race this close until Barnett crashed at Dorans?

Edited by Paul Collins, 14 April 2013 - 15:23.


#8725 Russell Burrows

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 15:51

More Kirby stuff, and a WWW to boot:
Posted Image[/URL]

Edited by Russell Burrows, 14 April 2013 - 15:55.


#8726 Russell Burrows

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 16:00

is this the great Alan Barnett/Peter Williams dice in the Senior TT? think I can see a tyre tucked in behind Barnett, before my time but I understand they spent most of the race this close until Barnett crashed at Dorans?

That was 1970, Paul. Alan Crashed on wet tar. I think I'm right in recalling that he lapped at over the ton on the Mettise in '69 too - some feat cos everyone knows they were too tall ;)

Edited by Russell Burrows, 14 April 2013 - 16:02.


#8727 knickerbrook

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 19:52

More Kirby stuff, and a WWW to boot:
Posted Image[/URL]

I know the source of the photo, so I'll sit on the fence regarding the identities ;) ! The first rider was often mistaken for Ron Chandler due to a similar helmet design. Great shot - really captures the essence of the period don't you think? The Manx in the middle stumped me untill I read the programme, as I associated him more with 7R/G50's. Anyone else care to take a punt?

#8728 Robin127

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 23:15

I know the source of the photo, so I'll sit on the fence regarding the identities ;) ! The first rider was often mistaken for Ron Chandler due to a similar helmet design. Great shot - really captures the essence of the period don't you think? The Manx in the middle stumped me untill I read the programme, as I associated him more with 7R/G50's. Anyone else care to take a punt?


Brian Hunter, Percy May? and Alan Barnett.


#8729 knickerbrook

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 00:04

Brian Hunter, Percy May? and Alan Barnett.

Since Russ is not about Robin, I'll jump in and say: yes to Barnett, but "the computor says noooo" to the other two!
But Percy May is a VERY good guess, especially as it's a Petty Manx and a number one plate (wasn't Percy 500 British Champion around that time?) but it's not him. I got the ID of the first rider when I first saw this photo on another website (it's not Hunter), but the guy on the Manx (pretty well known, and with good form on the island) was a surprise to me when I saw the programme that accompanied the shot. Keep guessing matey!

#8730 billlawrence

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 00:46

More Kirby stuff, and a WWW to boot:
Posted Image[/URL]

Chivers cant think of his first name Tom Dickie and Barnett as we are on Tom Kiry lets not forget the great Alan Shepherd was 2nd in the 1962 500cc world Championship on a Kirby bike Bill Lawrence

#8731 GD66

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:50

I am moving house at the moment ( :mad: ) and found an old Motorcycle Sport mag which had a pic of Martin Carney of all people trying out a Kirby G50.

#8732 tonyed

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:45

Chivers cant think of his first name Tom Dickie and Barnett as we are on Tom Kiry lets not forget the great Alan Shepherd was 2nd in the 1962 500cc world Championship on a Kirby bike Bill Lawrence


Con Chivers?

#8733 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:17

Without the aid of a programme: John Taylor, Tom Dickie, Alan Barnett. Hope that's right ;) I think it's Thuxton or Castle Coombe(only because it was among others pics from these tracks) in what must be '68ish ? Yes, Barry, excellent shot. Brian Hunter was a good stab because it does look a lot like him, Robin.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 15 April 2013 - 08:37.


#8734 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:33

Chivers cant think of his first name Tom Dickie and Barnett as we are on Tom Kiry lets not forget the great Alan Shepherd was 2nd in the 1962 500cc world Championship on a Kirby bike Bill Lawrence

Not Jim Ball? Think he rode Kirby's G50 from the following year.

#8735 billlawrence

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:01

Not Jim Ball? Think he rode Kirby's G50 from the following year.

Yes mate you are right Kirbys bikes 1963 Bill Lawrence

#8736 knickerbrook

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:53

Yes Russ - John Taylor and Tom Dickie are correct :clap: !
Bill, you mentioned the name Chivers - well there was a handy Welsh rider named Vince Chivers on the national scene around that time, he rode a 500 Manx and various other bikes and if memory serves, had a few wins at Crystal Palace and possibly elsewhere. Coincidentally, I believe he had some kind of altercation with Tom Dickie on the starting grid somewhere that made the motorcycle press at the time.

#8737 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 13:23

Yes Russ - John Taylor and Tom Dickie are correct :clap: !
Bill, you mentioned the name Chivers - well there was a handy Welsh rider named Vince Chivers on the national scene around that time, he rode a 500 Manx and various other bikes and if memory serves, had a few wins at Crystal Palace and possibly elsewhere. Coincidentally, I believe he had some kind of altercation with Tom Dickie on the starting grid somewhere that made the motorcycle press at the time.

Yes, Chivers lost his rag at Brands, presumably after Tom had bumped into him on the grid. Fancy doing that to another Welshman !

#8738 Sergio

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 16:40

EXPANSION CHAMBER SPRINGS

Here are a couple of questions from an occasional contributor to your well-informed forum:

  • On which machine and in what year were springs first used to retain expansion chambers on motorcycles?
  • Were springs used earlier for a similar purpose in other areas (for example Formula car racing)?

According to Norm DeWitt's piece on Nobby Clark in the January CLASSIC RACER , it was Gary Hocking that first had the idea when he was racing MZs (in 1958). Here's what Nobby told Norm for that article...

When I spoke to the guys from the MZ team, they told me that Gary [Hocking] had come up with the springs that held the expansion chambers on, as they used to be solid and would crack.


What do you think?

This is not a quiz. I guess that it may have been MZ who first introduced them, but the DKW Dreizylinder machines had expansion chambers before MZ and I always thought it was a Japanese idea (Yamaha?) from the 1960s.

Edited by Sergio, 15 April 2013 - 16:41.


#8739 RC162

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 18:54

I might have to pack it in. I don't recall Ron Chandler riding Tom's bikes at all. I thought he rode for Reg Kirby, with a blue and white fairing.
Off topic, but I heard Ron had a huge crash at Hampton Downs a few weeks back, broke some bones and trowelled his triple. Hope he's repairing ok.


Does anyone know how Ron is doing at the moment ?

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#8740 billlawrence

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:02

Yes Russ - John Taylor and Tom Dickie are correct :clap: !
Bill, you mentioned the name Chivers - well there was a handy Welsh rider named Vince Chivers on the national scene around that time, he rode a 500 Manx and various other bikes and if memory serves, had a few wins at Crystal Palace and possibly elsewhere. Coincidentally, I believe he had some kind of altercation with Tom Dickie on the starting grid somewhere that made the motorcycle press at the time.

Yes thats him I remember him at the Palace did he ever ride the Kirby bikes? Bill L awrence

#8741 billlawrence

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:09

EXPANSION CHAMBER SPRINGS

Here are a couple of questions from an occasional contributor to your well-informed forum:

  • On which machine and in what year were springs first used to retain expansion chambers on motorcycles?
  • Were springs used earlier for a similar purpose in other areas (for example Formula car racing)?

According to Norm DeWitt's piece on Nobby Clark in the January CLASSIC RACER , it was Gary Hocking that first had the idea when he was racing MZs (in 1958). Here's what Nobby told Norm for that article...



What do you think?

This is not a quiz. I guess that it may have been MZ who first introduced them, but the DKW Dreizylinder machines had expansion chambers before MZ and I always thought it was a Japanese idea (Yamaha?) from the 1960s.

Ithink Hocking raced MZ in 1959 a few years before Yamaha arrived shame MZ couldnt keep their top riders Bill Lawrence

#8742 raygray11

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:25

Ithink Hocking raced MZ in 1959 a few years before Yamaha arrived shame MZ couldnt keep their top riders Bill Lawrence

Morning Bill have just read a book on MZ ,Walter Kaden and Ernst Degner about 2 stoke exhausts being based on the princable of V2 German pulse jet rockets.


Book called Stealing Speed have given it back and cant remember the author.

All the best Ray Gray

#8743 larryd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:48

Morning Bill have just read a book on MZ ,Walter Kaden and Ernst Degner about 2 stoke exhausts being based on the princable of V2 German pulse jet rockets.


Book called Stealing Speed have given it back and cant remember the author.

All the best Ray Gray


Mat Oxley wrote it - not a great book IMHO - it's written like a novel almost.

By far the better MZ history was published some years ago, written by Jan Leek - not easy to find now, but well worth the effort.


#8744 Herr Wankel

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 16:41

Mat Oxley wrote it - not a great book IMHO - it's written like a novel almost.

By far the better MZ history was published some years ago, written by Jan Leek - not easy to find now, but well worth the effort.



Agreed Larry. But it would be a good read for 'Bikers' ! :lol:

HW

#8745 larryd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 16:53

Agreed Larry. But it would be a good read for 'Bikers' ! :lol:

HW


You've got your nose in the air a touch there, Andy !!

:clap: :clap: :clap:


#8746 knickerbrook

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 13:00

Yes thats him I remember him at the Palace did he ever ride the Kirby bikes? Bill L awrence

Not that I can recall Bill. But I have intimate knowledge of the Manx he rode though, because I ended up with it! I bought it off the rider he had previously sold it to. Vince, being small of stature had lowered the rear subframe and routed the high-level exhaust so that the megaphone was on the left. Despite having all the goodies - six-speed Schaftleitner box, 4LS '62 front brake, 1.5in Gardner carb, twin plug head - it was a right old dog! However, unbeknown to me, the timing side crankcase had a hairline crack all around the main bearing boss :eek: (which only became apparent when the engine was warmed up at my first outing on it) and had to be scrapped! I was only on apprentice wages back then and had the bike on HP, so I was totally stuffed. It was a thoroughly miserable experience :cry: ! It took me another year to rebuild the bike with new crankcases and all. The guy I bought it off (who shall remain nameless) didn't want to know. I later part-exed it for a Seeley G50 at Vin Ducketts' on which I had three very enjoyable seasons :) .

#8747 armchair

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 19:23

Mat Oxley wrote it - not a great book IMHO - it's written like a novel almost.

I read it, and I share your opinion. Actually, when I ordered a work by Mat Oxley on that subject, I hoped for a serious enquiry into the matter.
Besides, history teaches us that, even without Degner's contribution, both Yamaha and Kawasaki developed rotary-disc engines, and both efforts were successful.

#8748 Russell Burrows

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 20:07

In case anyone has missed these :
http://yle.fi/elavaa...tml#media=30315

#8749 Oilman

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:49

I had the pleasure of visiting Derek 'The Mint' earlier this week to wish him a Happy Birthday for today. 81 Today!!


#8750 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:15

Yes, Derek lives quite local to me too and I visited him a while ago. After his health scare when he mysteriously fell from his bike during a demonstration ride at Darley Moor - it may have been a mild heart attack or stroke - he gave up riding. It's good to know he's safely reached 81 in one piece.