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Motorcycle racing; 1949-1968 nostalgia


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#8901 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 20:31

Yes, a good read Russ. Where the hell did you find that?

It just popped up on one of my periodic trawls, Barry. I recall seeing Joe on the Greeves at the Palace when it chucked him down the road at Ramp Bennd :eek:

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#8902 Herr Wankel

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 21:29

Looks like Morini took a couple of years off after Ago left, then only raced in the Italian championship.

http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/fast.html


Fairly sure I've seen a picture of Ago on the Morini at the Vistahermosa circuit,Valencia. But he had long since left for Gallerate when Santi's career on the 'Monocasco' started.

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#8903 PaulMar

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 22:30

If they aren't they should be - FOR EVER :clap:


Having spent a lap of practice in the 1975 MGP sat up, on my 350 Shepherd Suzuki, following Roy Garnett on his "oversize" CR93 just enjoying the music :stoned: all I can say is I think you have no soul! Only a personal opinion, of course!

Still love "stinkwheels" as well of course. :up:

#8904 GD66

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 23:11

I think Tony was referring to the Moto3 bikes, which sound like a CT90 with a blown head gasket.

Edited by GD66, 12 August 2013 - 07:09.


#8905 tonyed

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 05:41

Having spent a lap of practice in the 1975 MGP sat up, on my 350 Shepherd Suzuki, following Roy Garnett on his "oversize" CR93 just enjoying the music :stoned: all I can say is I think you have no soul! Only a personal opinion, of course!

Still love "stinkwheels" as well of course. :up:


I to remember and appreciate the great four strokes of bygone eras , but Moto3 bikes sound terrible, the tone is flat (probably the silencer) and there is no 'melody' in the rise and fall of the revs. It was those I was referring to as the thread of my posts inferred (perhaps not obviously enough for all).
Listening on the radio to the TT this year we had the normal wall of Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki etc fours with the delightful MV675 interspaced between them. Sounded so different from the other bikes with their grotesque dustbins hanging off the side. Clearly the Japs are going for the ugliest silencer of all time award the leader in that class at present, in my opinion, is the carbuncle hanging off the end of the pipe on the latest Kawasaki 1000 followed closely by the 'Tardis' replicas on the Hondas. :down:
Worst thing racing ever did was to introduce silencing. If the NIMBYs don’t like it they can always move to another planet. :wave:


#8906 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:23

Don't know which is more impressive - the bike or the 'tache :)

While being alive to the fact that armchair pontificaters such as myself should be careful with their criticism of someone who has doubtless spent huge amounts of time and energy, not to mention dosh, on this project, I can't for the life of me understand the builder's decision to jack the whole thing up by steepening the angles and lengthening some of the frame tubes. Strangely enough, the call from Morini for me to ride their gorgeous creation never came, but I have a strong inkling that Provini's ability to sling the thing around and corner in his characteristic chin on the tank style, was not unrelated to it having a nice low centre of gravity. I wonder why they've created something different ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 12 August 2013 - 09:34.


#8907 philippe7

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:24

Russel, are you sure this machine is effectively shortened/raised up ? Couldn't it be a visual effect induced by the use of an obviously very wide-angle lens ? ( hence the fact that the back wheel seems to "curve away" towards the rear ) Just thinking .... :confused:

#8908 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 13:48

Russel, are you sure this machine is effectively shortened/raised up ? Couldn't it be a visual effect induced by the use of an obviously very wide-angle lens ? ( hence the fact that the back wheel seems to "curve away" towards the rear ) Just thinking .... :confused:

Yes, Philippe, this could distort things to some extent. However, other stuff on the bike seems to be positioned differently, isn't to the original scale, or is an add on. There are other examples around that don't look as odd as this one. I wonder if it was built without the benefit of directly copying from an original ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 12 August 2013 - 14:00.


#8909 PaulMar

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 22:35

I to remember and appreciate the great four strokes of bygone eras , but Moto3 bikes sound terrible, the tone is flat (probably the silencer) and there is no 'melody' in the rise and fall of the revs. It was those I was referring to as the thread of my posts inferred (perhaps not obviously enough for all).
Listening on the radio to the TT this year we had the normal wall of Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki etc fours with the delightful MV675 interspaced between them. Sounded so different from the other bikes with their grotesque dustbins hanging off the side. Clearly the Japs are going for the ugliest silencer of all time award the leader in that class at present, in my opinion, is the carbuncle hanging off the end of the pipe on the latest Kawasaki 1000 followed closely by the 'Tardis' replicas on the Hondas. :down:
Worst thing racing ever did was to introduce silencing. If the NIMBYs don’t like it they can always move to another planet. :wave:


Sorry Tony managed to grasp the wrong stick all together didn't realise you were talking about the Moto Clones. I'll have to try and start logging in before 23:00 when my brain has started logging off.

Couldn't agree more about silencing though. Even in the day (last MGP in 83) I had to claim my, oversized GS 400 based, Shepherd had a longer stroke & smaller bore to keep the revs down for the noise check (I was just ableto get away with totally empty, fully tapered megaphones). It is true that I'm a bit hard of hearing these days, but it was worth it.

#8910 Robin127

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 23:17

In need of proofreading, but worth a gander nonetheless.
http://otleysquashcl...orks-greeves-at



Interesting article, any idea if it was written by John Nutting?

The "Seeley-style" framed bike (named "Nirvana" on the tank) sat in my parents garage for a year or so in the mid 70's. However I seem to remember it having a Villiers engine in it then. I don't know how we ended up with it but I think we were looking after it for someone. I know Joe Wright came to pick it up and I raced against him a few times after he'd fitted the Suzuki engine in it, really nice bloke.

I'm pretty certain that it was the same frame that the aforementioned Mr. Nutting put a YZ250 Yamaha engine in and raced in the Bantam Club in the mid 80's.



#8911 GD66

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 00:08

I wonder what the team was that won the award in the '63 Senior : Joe, Paddy Driver and Jack Ahearn ? Maybe a BMCRC job...

#8912 tonyed

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:28

Sorry Tony managed to grasp the wrong stick all together didn't realise you were talking about the Moto Clones. I'll have to try and start logging in before 23:00 when my brain has started logging off.

Couldn't agree more about silencing though. Even in the day (last MGP in 83) I had to claim my, oversized GS 400 based, Shepherd had a longer stroke & smaller bore to keep the revs down for the noise check (I was just ableto get away with totally empty, fully tapered megaphones). It is true that I'm a bit hard of hearing these days, but it was worth it.

Hard of hearing, did someone say something?

Although racing and racing against unsilenced two strokes has certainly affected my hearing (during my annual company medical we abandon the hearing test halfway through due to the upper echelons being inaudible to me). But it was worth it.

What would the Honda six or the MV3 have sounded like with silencers? :confused: The kids of today think they’ve got it all with their phones and i-pads etc, boy they aint got nuffink compared with the halcyon days of unsilenced racing engines.

Now I’ll just shuffle off on my Zimmer frame to turn the volume up on my gramophone to listen to ‘Sound Stories’ again.


#8913 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:56

It might have been up before, in which case it'll be dead easy ;)
Posted Image

#8914 Robin127

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 17:18

It might have been up before, in which case it'll be dead easy ;)
Posted Image


4- Paddy Driver, 8 -Rob Fitton.

#8915 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 17:42

4- Paddy Driver, 8 -Rob Fitton.

So far so good.

#8916 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 18:14

I wonder what the team was that won the award in the '63 Senior : Joe, Paddy Driver and Jack Ahearn ? Maybe a BMCRC job...

Maybe. I think germanty placed Joe at the original meeting of the Westminster Racing Club. Did blokes have multiple membership back then as was common a bit later ?

#8917 GD66

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 22:35

So far so good.



Jim Redman on the left.


#8918 billlawrence

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 00:55

So far so good.

chris conn and ron langston ? bill lawrence

#8919 Russell Burrows

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:17

Yes gents, Redman far left with Rob Fitton alongside Driver far right. The 7R pilot is Ekstrom, while 36 is old biggus dickus, Jacques Insermini. Pau, 1960, apparently.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 14 August 2013 - 05:21.


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#8920 Russell Burrows

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:24

Interesting article, any idea if it was written by John Nutting?

The "Seeley-style" framed bike (named "Nirvana" on the tank) sat in my parents garage for a year or so in the mid 70's. However I seem to remember it having a Villiers engine in it then. I don't know how we ended up with it but I think we were looking after it for someone. I know Joe Wright came to pick it up and I raced against him a few times after he'd fitted the Suzuki engine in it, really nice bloke.

I'm pretty certain that it was the same frame that the aforementioned Mr. Nutting put a YZ250 Yamaha engine in and raced in the Bantam Club in the mid 80's.

The author remains a mystery, to me at least. Are we talking about Nutting of comic fame ?

#8921 billlawrence

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:15

Yes gents, Redman far left with Rob Fitton alongside Driver far right. The 7R pilot is Ekstrom, while 36 is old biggus dickus, Jacques Insermini. Pau, 1960, apparently.

sounds like the Norton (Proboscis) would have been the bike for him Bill Lawrence

#8922 PaulMar

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:35

[quote name='PaulMar' date='Aug 14 2013, 12:32' post='6388905']
Ahh! the dulcet tones of proper Italian & Japanese multis, of both persuasions, & other members of that celestial choir. :stoned:...........................................................Sorry I just had a bit of a "tear in the eye" moment there.

That's it back to present day reality again. :(



#8923 Robin127

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:43

The author remains a mystery, to me at least. Are we talking about Nutting of comic fame ?


Yes, he wrote for Motor Cycle and was a friend of Joe Wright.

Edited by Robin127, 14 August 2013 - 12:46.


#8924 Herr Wankel

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 13:28

Yes gents, Redman far left with Rob Fitton alongside Driver far right. The 7R pilot is Ekstrom, while 36 is old biggus dickus, Jacques Insermini. Pau, 1960, apparently.


The circuit still exists to this day, relatively unchanged,although lined with armco in a lot of places to appease the 4 wheel brigade who have a problem keeping it on the tarmac ! Last used for bikes and chairs in '69, where 'mon ami' Jean-Claude Castella finished 2nd in the chariot race. Beautiful circuit with the back-drop of the Pyrenees.

HW


#8925 knickerbrook

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 17:30

Anyone like to have a stab at this?
Second rider is easy, but who's that in front? (A reasonably well-known national rider from the late-sixties/early seventies).

Posted Image
(Picture courtesy of Dennis Ferrell).

Edited by knickerbrook, 14 August 2013 - 17:32.


#8926 Russell Burrows

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 17:51

Anyone like to have a stab at this?
Second rider is easy, but who's that in front? (A reasonably well-known national rider from the late-sixties/early seventies).

Posted Image
(Picture courtesy of Dennis Ferrell).

it's a nice shot. Is it Vince Chivers? Or maybe Derek Filler?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 14 August 2013 - 18:25.


#8927 exclubracer

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 17:55

The circuit still exists to this day, relatively unchanged,although lined with armco in a lot of places to appease the 4 wheel brigade who have a problem keeping it on the tarmac ! Last used for bikes and chairs in '69, where 'mon ami' Jean-Claude Castella finished 2nd in the chariot race. Beautiful circuit with the back-drop of the Pyrenees.

HW

Andy, is that the same as Pau Arnos or are they two completely different tracks?

#8928 philippe7

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 21:07

Two different tracks - the "classic" Pau circuit is a street circuit inside the city, whereas Pau-Arnos is a modern affair a few miles out in the hills - in nice countryside surroundings and with lots of elevation changes.

Incidentally, there also was a third "Pau" circuit, this one called Pau-Lescar, a tiny track in the suburbs where 2-wheel racing was organised regularily in the early-mid 70's . Mostly for 50/125cc, but also 250cc national championship .

#8929 Herr Wankel

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 22:35

Two different tracks - the "classic" Pau circuit is a street circuit inside the city, whereas Pau-Arnos is a modern affair a few miles out in the hills - in nice countryside surroundings and with lots of elevation changes.

Incidentally, there also was a third "Pau" circuit, this one called Pau-Lescar, a tiny track in the suburbs where 2-wheel racing was organised regularily in the early-mid 70's . Mostly for 50/125cc, but also 250cc national championship .


I think that may be the circuit that is now used for karts Philippe, on the RD945 near to Pau rocade. Pau Arnos I always liken to Cadwell Park but with sunshine. :p

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#8930 philippe7

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:56

Might be, Herr...it was on the D945, for sure . While looking for the length of the track after posting my last message, I found this page on the late Vincent Glon's site : check out the various circuits plans at the bottom of the page :
http://racingmemo.fr... FRANCE/PAU.htm

#8931 Herr Wankel

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:48

Might be, Herr...it was on the D945, for sure . While looking for the length of the track after posting my last message, I found this page on the late Vincent Glon's site : check out the various circuits plans at the bottom of the page :
http://racingmemo.fr... FRANCE/PAU.htm


Yes thats the one. You nearly pass through the middle of it from the new (white elephant !) motorway from Langon to Pau. The other (first) circuit at Serres Morlaas on the site of the old military camp is mostly industrial/wharehousing now. Stan Dibben told me that the first time he went up the hill from the station turn, he nearly fell off the platform of Eric Olivers Norton outfit. That was in 1952. They won the race of course. Still a magical circuit, but very unforgiving. (Not as bad as Macao though)

HW

#8932 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:11

Yes thats the one. You nearly pass through the middle of it from the new (white elephant !) motorway from Langon to Pau. The other (first) circuit at Serres Morlaas on the site of the old military camp is mostly industrial/wharehousing now. Stan Dibben told me that the first time he went up the hill from the station turn, he nearly fell off the platform of Eric Olivers Norton outfit. That was in 1952. They won the race of course. Still a magical circuit, but very unforgiving. (Not as bad as Macao though)

HW

Posted Image
This one, Herr?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 15 August 2013 - 09:25.


#8933 knickerbrook

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 14:52

it's a nice shot. Is it Vince Chivers? Or maybe Derek Filler?

Chivers is a good guess Russell, but it's not him. This is a fellow welshman who was racing around the same time though.
He later caused a bit of a stir when he won the opening round of the newly created MCN Superbike Championship (circa 1970?) at Oulton Park riding a Manx-framed Triumph/Weslake 8-valve special, beating the much-fancied works Triumph Threes of Percy Tait and others in the process. Unfortunately, while still leading the championship I believe, the said motor blew itself to bits in the second round at Thruxton and that was the end of his moment in the spotlight. He later rode a Seeley-framed version of the Triumph/Weslake to pretty good effect at National level. Also was well-placed in a Senior TT on the Manx.

#8934 picblanc

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 15:13

Percy May?

#8935 knickerbrook

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 15:22

Percy May?

Nope!

#8936 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 15:30

Lot of clues there.....erm Brian Adams ?

#8937 knickerbrook

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 15:36

Lot of clues there.....erm Brian Adams ?

Correct Russ :clap: !
And underated I reckon.

#8938 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 15:42

Correct Russ :clap: !
And underated I reckon.

Besting Percy et al, absolute. They're good shots, Barry, does Mr Ferrell have anymore he might allow to be whacked up ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 15 August 2013 - 15:43.


#8939 tonyed

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 16:45

Lot of clues there.....erm Brian Adams ?


Thank Dog there is no sound. If I hear Brian Adams singing 'Everything I Do' again I'll top someone :smoking: ): :up:

Oh not Bryan Adams :blush:

And who turned up at a Ryan Adams concert thinking they'd hear that bloody song (not me I hasten to add) :clap:

Edited by tonyed, 15 August 2013 - 16:50.


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#8940 knickerbrook

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 16:54

Besting Percy et al, absolute. They're good shots, Barry, does Mr Ferrell have anymore he might allow to be whacked up ?

Yeah, but those I have access to are mostly post-68 and of club meetings. But I am hoping he will take up my suggestion to join us, and put some up himself. I know he has a huge collection of slides (inc. pre-68) but I'm guessing that the bulk would not have been scanned. I have told him of the appreciative audience, so lets hope he responds!

#8941 Herr Wankel

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 19:50

Posted Image
This one, Herr?


Thats the one Russell. This part of the circuit is still quite recognizable today. Quite a steep climb up there from the station turn. It goes from here under a bridge and a sharp left blind turn. Would have been magic to watch the chairs drifting through there.

HW

#8942 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 21:49

Posted Image
Do we know who this is ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 15 August 2013 - 21:49.


#8943 GD66

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 23:17

Peter Bates ?

#8944 Russell Burrows

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 23:25

Peter Bates ?

No not Peter, Glenn...who he's ?

#8945 GD66

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:06

He rode a BSA in the 750 Production TT in 1972. None of the others seem to fit the bill. Not Bob Heath, is it ? Seem to recall he had red trim on his helmet, even in those days.

If you drew a saint on the lid, it would actually resemble Alan Peck pretty closely

Edited by GD66, 16 August 2013 - 08:07.


#8946 Russell Burrows

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:35

He rode a BSA in the 750 Production TT in 1972. None of the others seem to fit the bill. Not Bob Heath, is it ? Seem to recall he had red trim on his helmet, even in those days.

If you drew a saint on the lid, it would actually resemble Alan Peck pretty closely

It is Bob Heath, Ballacraine, '67 proddy race, factory Rocket Gold Star or whatever they called them then. Didn't he work for the factory ? He certainly got all sorts of sought after rides, despite being less quick than some.

#8947 Russell Burrows

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:47

Thats the one Russell. This part of the circuit is still quite recognizable today. Quite a steep climb up there from the station turn. It goes from here under a bridge and a sharp left blind turn. Would have been magic to watch the chairs drifting through there.

HW

As you probably can see that's Peter Ferbrache leading them up the hill. I'm begining to think he was a real character: I read a claim recently that he would take his very fast, but very scruffy looking, Hartley Ariel to the Ace caff on the North Circular and win bets after outgunning the local rockers with it. Great story that might even be true.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 16 August 2013 - 08:51.


#8948 picblanc

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:59

It is Bob Heath, Ballacraine, '67 proddy race, factory Rocket Gold Star or whatever they called them then. Didn't he work for the factory ? He certainly got all sorts of sought after rides, despite being less quick than some.



He did Russell.

Great photo too!

Edited by picblanc, 16 August 2013 - 09:00.


#8949 GD66

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:11

[quote name='Russell Burrows' date='Aug 16 2013, 00:35' post='6390385']
It is Bob Heath, Ballacraine, '67 proddy race, factory Rocket Gold Star or whatever they called them then./quote]


Spitfire I think. Yes he worked for BSA, got good results on the BSA Rocket 3 proddie racer in particular. These days of course, we hate him for owning the ex-SMBH Honda 350 four... :lol:


#8950 Tonka

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 19:21

http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland/22987136

Video of 1968 Ulster 125 & 350 races. The BBC give a lot of prominace to Ago, but Read & Ivy feature more than him, along with a lot of the 60's circus.