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Motorcycle racing; 1949-1968 nostalgia


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#251 Bernard

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 12:13

Guys ,two things

Had a email about Errol Cowan from the SA Historic Motorcycle Group as follows

He has a bike shop in joburg called errol cowan motorcycles.
He rides sometimes with us, but he has to be lent a suitable bike.
So, he feels shy to keep taking the offer up.
He just fixed a 60,s suzuki 500gp bike for clive strugnell. Clive is bringing the bike over to the IOM this year as part of
suzuki SA,s contingent.
Clive is the lookwell agent in RSA.


Paul ,secondly Fritz,

From my memory not always reliable I think in the Motorcycling article John went on a lap with Georg and said to Georg before they started "langsam, langsam" (slowly,slowly) but George tore off down Bray . Yes I had an email from a german guy some years ago now who said Georg was living in Bad Worishofen with his parents on some kind of pension and when fans had written to him as I planned to do he did'nt take too kindly to it. Hermann Hahn is around and attends german mv agusta meetings their site had a picture of him some time ago. I took him round the island on the back of my NSU to look at the course and the only place he asked me to stop was the Ramsey Hairpin strangely enough.

And Bjorn

You are taxing my memory I think it was a Volkswagen mini van ,with a trailer I will google etc to see if I casn find anything, back with more info when available

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#252 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 31 January 2007 - 22:32

Bernard

I have searched the German White Pages for Bad Worishofen and found what are most likely Georg's parents, but seeing as making contact would be unwelcome, I shalln't bother. Thank you.

#253 bigrog

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 16:17

Originally posted by Hieronymus


No, it is TREVOR BLOKDYK on a Villiers. Trevor made quite a success in F3 in Europe and was a favourite to become a Lotus works driver in F1, before a serious accident ended it all.


Fascinating answer Hieronymus because both pmbboy and I remember seeing Trevor Blokdyk a number of times drive a Formula 1 and a bike on the same day. I remember him driving and riding at Kyalami in, I think, an old T51 Cooper in about 1964 (I do remember it was red) and we were amazed that he'd rush in to the pits in a car, get out of his racing overall, into his racing leathers and go and ride in the bike race and he would be well placed in both. Really talented guy. However, he didn't cross either of our minds when you asked the question. Unfortunately, that's what age does to the old memory banks!!
All sorts of names popped in to the frame including Tony Maggs but could never remember him riding bikes. Oh' well, you'll have to fnd another one to test us.

#254 pmbboy

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Posted 01 February 2007 - 23:00

I remember watching Trevor race in South Africa in his red Cooper and if you look on this forum thread Cooper Juniors quote 8 you can see this very car which was in fact a Cooper T56.
It looks in a sorry state but it certainly brings back some memories.
Peter

#255 Hieronymus

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 13:59

Roger/Peter...anyone

Referring to the Blokdyk photo inmy earlier post.

What can you tell me of this peculiar riding position?? Am I correct in saying that they called it the "prone position"? What was the logic behind this, aerodynamics perhaps??? Did anyone use this with success??

Sorry for all the questions, but this one tickles me...

#256 T54

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 16:13

In fact, this position is the most aerodynamic of any possible on an unfaired motorcycle with no "re-attachment" tail section.
A motorcycle is one of the worst vehicles as far as providing a low CD, and generates a huge wake behind itself, creating drag and making the engine work hard and using much of its energy fighting the created resistance. Airflow penetration (what's up front) is nowhere as important as separation, meaning what is happening at the rear of the moving vehicle. As an example, when the Canadian compaby Bombardier studied their 125cc speed-record bike in the early 1970's, they found that in the water tunnel, a piece of square tubing of a given section generated the same wake as a piece of round tubing of the same section. By adding a profile at the back of either, the wake was reduced enormously in equal amount.

By making the vehicle longer (with extended legs), the disturbed airflow has a much better chance to re-attach itself much closer to the back of the vehicle, reducing the CD. It also offers a smaller frontal surface, meaning less disturbance of the airflow.
You can gain as much as 10% increase in speed by using such as risky riding position. :)
But it is indeed extremely dangerous as vehicle control is not so easy... :
Regards,

T54

#257 bigrog

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 18:57

Originally posted by T54
In fact, this position is the most aerodynamic of any possible on an unfaired motorcycle with no "re-attachment" tail section.
A motorcycle is one of the worst vehicles as far as providing a low CD, and generates a huge wake behind itself, creating drag and making the engine work hard and using much of its energy fighting the created resistance. Airflow penetration (what's up front) is nowhere as important as separation, meaning what is happening at the rear of the moving vehicle. As an example, when the Canadian compaby Bombardier studied their 125cc speed-record bike in the early 1970's, they found that in the water tunnel, a piece of square tubing of a given section generated the same wake as a piece of round tubing of the same section. By adding a profile at the back of either, the wake was reduced enormously in equal amount.

By making the vehicle longer (with extended legs), the disturbed airflow has a much better chance to re-attach itself much closer to the back of the vehicle, reducing the CD. It also offers a smaller frontal surface, meaning less disturbance of the airflow.
You can gain as much as 10% increase in speed by using such as risky riding position. :)
But it is indeed extremely dangerous as vehicle control is not so easy... :
Regards,

T54


T54, you've been kind enough to post some of your drawings before and clearly you have a great understanding of aerodynamics as your work with Morbidelli showed. I've got a couple of questions therefore:

1. Did you have anything to do with Garelli in the early eighties. The 250 in particular seems to ape your Morbidelli streamiling ideas particularly with the seat.
2. Why does Honda in particular pay so little attention to the side of the bike. The fairing on the Rc211V left a lot of the engine exposed but the new Rc212V is worse. Whilst designers have realised that getting the air out of the bike once you've ducted it through the radiators etc. is very important, this takes it to the . Secondly, The seat area gets very little attention either. What do you think. Do you remember the treatment that the Bolle brothers used to have on their bikes in the early eighties. Surely they were on the right lines?( I'm probably on the wrong thread for this question but never mind.)

#258 T54

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Posted 02 February 2007 - 19:37

1. Did you have anything to do with Garelli in the early eighties.


No, but it is possible that Joerg Moller took some of the ideas seen on the prototype Morbidelli bikes with him after he was canned from the Pesaro company and had a short stint with MBA.

2. Why does Honda in particular pay so little attention to the side of the bike.


Don't discount what this huge outfit doers now, it might be very efficient. In my days, computers were hardly used and we just designed by feel. Nowadays, it's got to be pretty scientific, and people like me are utterly obsolete! :cry:
That won't stop me from enjoying life at its fullest. :smoking:

#259 bigrog

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 16:31

Originally posted by T54

No, but it is possible that Joerg Moller took some of the ideas seen on the prototype Morbidelli bikes with him after he was canned from the Pesaro company and had a short stint with MBA.


Don't discount what this huge outfit doers now, it might be very efficient. In my days, computers were hardly used and we just designed by feel. Nowadays, it's got to be pretty scientific, and people like me are utterly obsolete! :cry:
That won't stop me from enjoying life at its fullest. :smoking:


Take your point. But I'm not knocking Honda's design genius. I'm just curious. Don't get me wrong, if the computer says it's right, it must be right. :D

I always thought that reputation rated Jorg Muller a bit of a design genius. Do I take it you don't share that view?

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#260 T54

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 22:10

Moller was certainly one of the most competent 2-stroke technicians in Europe, and Morbidelli, MBA, Garelli and Minarelli owe him most of their success.

#261 Senor

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:11

Originally posted by bigrog


2. Why does Honda in particular pay so little attention to the side of the bike. The fairing on the Rc211V left a lot of the engine exposed

Honda at one time said that they had achieved their speed objectives with the RC211V and that the fairing design was made to assistant the rider with handling and cornering. I suppose this statement may have been revised when the Ducati's proved to be so quick. You can see this in later variations of the bike (particularly Hayden's) where significant enhancements have been made.

#262 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 13:21

I've remarked on the death of Fergus Anderson on the Belgian road circuit of Floreffe in 1956 elsewhere on this forum, and have read that a memorial plaque was erected in the village of Buzet at the scene of his crash. Although one or two links have been mentioned, they don't work for me, and one of the site www.racingcircuits.com(?) has disappeared too.

Does anyone have an image of this plaque, please? If not, I'll just have to take a ride over there and search for it myself. :)

#263 Twin Window

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 23:48

Fellas... I've now got my hands on some of the negs I was asking for your help with a while back - so hopefully these enhanced images will give you a better chance of identifying the riders.

These are from Monza, 1953 - the Nations Cup, I believe;

Posted Image 1/ Libero Liberati? Posted Image 2/ Cecil Sandford?

Posted Image 3/ ? Posted Image 4/ ?

Posted Image 5/ ? Posted Image 6/ ? (Norton logo on his helmet, but sitting astride a Guzzi!)

Your input will be most appreciated!

:up:

#264 antony duprat

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:51

Originally posted by Twin Window
Fellas... I've now got my hands on some of the negs I was asking for your help with a while back - so hopefully these enhanced images will give you a better chance of identifying the riders.

These are from Monza, 1953 - the Nations Cup, I believe;

Posted Image 1/ Libero Liberati? Posted Image 2/ Cecil Sandford?

Posted Image 3/ ? Posted Image 4/ ?

Posted Image 5/ ? Posted Image 6/ ? (Norton logo on his helmet, but sitting astride a Guzzi!)

Your input will be most appreciated!

:up:

3)Pierre Monneret
5) U. Masetti ?
4)C. Bandirola ?
2) i think too

#265 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:43

Anthony

I think you are pretty spot on with your guesses except -

No5 - Yes Masetti rode an NSU at Monza that year but I've not been able to find a picture of him without a Mickey Mouse and 'Gilera' badges on his helmet.

No6 - Ken Kavanagh, I think.

#266 antony duprat

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 13:07

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale

Anthony

I think you are pretty spot on with your guesses except -



I'am just here by chance. I don't now this périod, but i actually range a lot of " MOTO d'époque" revues and have some pics of them on my table.. I more use the other motocycle forum but this one is very good and instructive to me... :up:

#267 pmbboy

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 22:22

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
Anthony

I think you are pretty spot on with your guesses except -

No5 - Yes Masetti rode an NSU at Monza that year but I've not been able to find a picture of him without a Mickey Mouse and 'Gilera' badges on his helmet.

No6 - Ken Kavanagh, I think.


my definates are
3= Pierre Monneret
4= Carlo Bandirola
6= Ken Kavanagh

cheers
Peter

#268 Twin Window

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 23:22

Thanks chaps!

I'll put a few more up if you're willing to try and assist.

:up:

#269 pmbboy

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 19:24

The only reason for this photo is that to me, it sums up the neat and stylish riders of the 60's
This is Paddy Driver on a 350 Norton at BP bend at the Roy Hesketh circuit Pietermaritzburg
Cheers
Peter
Posted Image

#270 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 08:22

....and the Peel Mountain Mile fairing manufactured on the Isle of Man was one of the most attractive of fairings in those days.

#271 bigrog

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 20:33

Originally posted by pmbboy
The only reason for this photo is that to me, it sums up the neat and stylish riders of the 60's
This is Paddy Driver on a 350 Norton at BP bend at the Roy Hesketh circuit Pietermaritzburg
Cheers
Peter
Posted Image


Great picture and Paddy was always a man to wear a space helmet but how do you know the bike is a 350?

#272 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 20:49

Colour of the racing numbers? Paddy Driver always wore (I think) a pudding basin helmet in the UK. Notice how his boots are worn away yet these days, with even greater angles of lean, it doesn't happen.

#273 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 20:57

Posted Image

Paddy Driver at Brands Hatch in a Tom Kirby Matchless.

#274 bigrog

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 21:00

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
Posted Image

Paddy Driver at Brands Hatch in a Tom Kirby Matchless.


You're right about the pudding basin Paaul. I must admit I remember the space helmet. By the way, I think that's Uncle Tom standing next to him. The Kirby bikes were always beautifully turned out.

#275 picblanc

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 21:33

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
Colour of the racing numbers? Paddy Driver always wore (I think) a pudding basin helmet in the UK. Notice how his boots are worn away yet these days, with even greater angles of lean, it doesn't happen.


Tittanium toe sliders Paul ;)

#276 bigrog

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 22:08

Originally posted by picblanc


Tittanium toe sliders Paul ;)


And they've learned to pick their feet up on the footrests!!

#277 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 22:57

BigRog

The caption with the photo mentions Tom Arter as standing alongside Paddy Driver but as it's a Tom Kirby bike, I can't see as that is correct. However the image is a bit fuzzy. I gather Paddy is still alive and well in Seff Effrika?

#278 Twin Window

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 19:57

Does anyone recognise this chap, snapped at Hockenheim during the 1955 GP?

Posted Image

#279 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 20:01

Hugh Grant????? :rotfl:

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#280 Twin Window

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 23:03

Or maybe these riders from the same meeting?

Posted Image Posted Image


Or this blokes from the 1954 IoM TT?

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Thanks!

#281 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 12:03

Top left - Eric Oliver - World Sidecar Champion 1949, 1950, 1951 & 1953.

Bottom left - same is your earlier post?

#282 Twin Window

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 13:35

Thanks, Paul. I don't think I've posted the chap bottom-left before, mind...

What about the singleton shot I put up yesterday? Ring any bells?

#283 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 17:09

Sorry, what I meant to say that the bottom left and the singleton appear to be the same rider.

#284 Twin Window

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 17:55

That's a good shout, Paul!

#285 Nikola

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 19:27

Originally posted by T54
Moller was certainly one of the most competent 2-stroke technicians in Europe, and Morbidelli, MBA, Garelli and Minarelli owe him most of their success.


Who can telle me, what is Jörg Möller doing today? Thanks....

#286 T54

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 22:35

Hi Nikola,
Here is a good start... :lol:

#287 Nikola

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 16:03

Originally posted by T54
Hi Nikola,
Here is a good start... :lol:


O.K. T54, I give up, is not so important what happened to Jörg Möller...... :rotfl:

#288 Nikola

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 21:25

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
Posted Image

The Suzukis were the RK66 50cc water-cooled model shown at the 1963 German GP at Hockenheim. No 202 was Georg Anscheidt's bike, but I can't think who his team mates were. Hugh Anderson? Fumio Ito?



Hi Paul, model RK66 is from 1966. - are you sure foto is from 1963?..... I saw this pic on internet,
with title "H.-G. Anscheidt", so I believe, you are with name of Anscheidt correct (?) :|

#289 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 17:24

Please can someone help me here.
My great countryman, Ray Amm, won both the junior and senior IOM TTs in 1953. My question is, was this the first time he raced in the island, or had he been there previously?
Also, how many newcomers won at their first attempt while the races still had world championship status?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.

#290 Nikola

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 18:02

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Please can someone help me here.
My great countryman, Ray Amm, won both the junior and senior IOM TTs in 1953. My question is, was this the first time he raced in the island, or had he been there previously?
Also, how many newcomers won at their first attempt while the races still had world championship status?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.


Please, see this table:

Amm Ray Rhodesien
Rang Jahr Marke Klasse Resultate
3 1952 NOR 350 cc CH 6 - NL 2 - B 2 - I 1
10 1952 NOR 500 cc CH 6 - TT 3 - B 3
3 1953 NOR 350 cc TT 1 - NL 2 - B 3
5 1953 NOR 500 cc TT 1 - B 2
2 1954 NOR 350 cc UL 1 - D 1 - CH 3 - I 5
2 1954 NOR 500 cc TT 1 - UL 1 - D 2 - CH 2

We can see, Ray Amm was on Isle of Man in 1952. (TT3 - 3th place in 500-class). Best regards!

#291 antony duprat

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 18:11

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Please can someone help me here.
My great countryman, Ray Amm, won both the junior and senior IOM TTs in 1953. My question is, was this the first time he raced in the island, or had he been there previously?
Also, how many newcomers won at their first attempt while the races still had world championship status?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.

i have that for you
http://www.iomtt.com...LL&ride_id=1354

#292 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 18:49

Thank you guys. Much appreciated.

Anyone here who can answer part 2 of my question. How many first timers have won a TT while still a W/C event?

#293 T54

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 18:58

The Suzukis were the RK66 50cc water-cooled model shown at the 1963 German GP at Hockenheim. No 202 was Georg Anscheidt's bike, but I can't think who his team mates were. Hugh Anderson? Fumio Ito?


A bit of confusion here... :wave:
In the 1963 German GP, Hans Ancheidt drove a works Kreidler, not a Suzuki, and certainly not an RK66 which came in... 1966!
Ancheidt joined Suzuki in 1966 after 5 years unsuccessfully chasing the title with the Kreidler 12-speed. Just not enough caballos to compete with the Japanese, Ernst Degner-designed single. Ernst won the first 50cc title in 1962. In fact, no one could compete with the Suzuki and Hugh Anderson in 1963 and 1964, that is until Honda got their twin going, Ralph Bryans winning the 1965 title over his team mate Taveri and Anderson's hapless Suzuki. Once Suzuki also got their twin, Kreidler was effectively doomed and Anscheidt had little choice but go with thr winners. Once on the RK66, he easily won the title and repeated in 1967 on the evolved RK67 twin, now developing the astounding amount of 19HP (from 3.2CI!!!!) and now fitted with a 14-speed gearbox.

At the end of 1967, Suzuki pulled out of GP racing and gave Hans an RK67 and a 125cc Twin and two spare engines, and Hans won the 50cc title virtually unopposed as both the Derbi and Jamathi competitors were relying on single cylinder bikes, awaiting the coming new FIM regulations banning multi-cylinders, as both Honda and Suzuki had actually built new 3-cylinder engines.

Your picture is effectively that of Hans on a twin 50cc at Hockenheim, but more than likely on a RK67 in either 1967 or 1968 and more than likely not in the actual GP but in a national championship race, as the numbering of bikes in GP's rarely exceeded 2 digits.

In 1963, the Suzuki 50cc works riders were: Hugh Anderson, Isao Morishita, Mitsuo Itoh. Michio Ichino and Shunkishi Masuda.

When Ancheidt joined the team in 1966, the other works riders were Hugh Anderson, Ernst Degner and Mitsuo Itoh. In 1967, Yoshumi Katayama, Mitsua Itoh, Hiroyoko Kawasaki and (occasionally) Tommy Robb , while in 1968 he was alone.
Just for fun, please see this picture of an actual cylinder of an RK66, which I had in my possession for a while along with a crankshaft and rods, pistons and a 14-speed cluster.

Posted Image

Regards,

T54

#294 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 19:39

Thank you for that T54. It is comforting to know that the real facts are still out there. Please put them down on paper for future generations, if you haven´t already. because it would be a great pity to lose that sort of infomation.

#295 Nikola

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 19:41

I can say also only "THANKS" to T54!

#296 T54

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 21:21

Thanks fellows...
In another five minutes, I will be the Doug Nye of 50cc racing... :lol:
Really, my forte is in slot cars, not in much anything else. But I did live those days, knew the people and was an avid participant, so the old memories stay when you get lapped by those guys! :smoking:

Today, we be just another old guy with fading memories... :(

NOT! :cool:

#297 Twin Window

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 01:25

Can anyone offer any further suggestions as to who the blokes are beginning with this chap? (Scroll down for a few more...)

:)

#298 bigrog

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 14:53

I've opened a thread called: "A good bike debate-Hailwood versus Rossi ".

This is an opportunity for us oldies to debate the merits of riders we would rate as, 'the greatest ever'. Please give an opinion.

#299 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 15:19

Posted Image

Who, when, where, well as much as possible anyway.(I don´t know much about it myself)

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#300 bigrog

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 15:31

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Posted Image

Who, when, where, well as much as possible anyway.(I don´t know much about it myself)


Obviously John Cooper and I think the guy in the white helmet is Ian Burne. I'm having difficulty with Number 31 but I do know it. Year is 64 or 65. I'll come back with more