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Fisichella vs Kovalainen


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Poll: Fisichella vs Kovalainen (215 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Fisichella (74 votes [34.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.42%

  2. Kovalainen (141 votes [65.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 65.58%

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#1 d_view7

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 18:27

Who do you think will have the upper hand in 2007, Fisichella or Kovalainen? I think Fisichella will be more consistent and might win in points but Kovalainen will be the more convincing of the two. Probably even win a race or two on merit.

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#2 le chat noir

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 18:35

So like GF wins the WDC by consistent podiums and one win. HK comes 3rd or 4th with 4 wins but several spins. KR has a reliable car but a pitcrew that only supply 3 tyres, and FA has a fast car that goes 10 laps. JB gets 2 wet wins and a dry, RB 1 by default.

Impossible to say at this stage, isn't it?

#3 The Kanisteri

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 18:45

Heikki will battle about WDC - Fisi will soon notice his job is again being mr. soft compound and he has to support teammate and bring some leftover points for team.

#4 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 19:39

Fisichella has won two grand prix over two seasons in the championship winning car.

Even if his team mate was much slower than him, Fisi still wouldnt have won more races as he has never actually finished 2nd behind Fernando. Quite unbelievable when Fernando has won 14 races in their time together. This isnt a bash, just facts.

How does anyone including himself expect a title challenge next year when its glaringly obvious only the abilitites of Alonso have made Renault the title challengers they've been the last couple of years? The only way I see it is if the renault is like Ferrari has been in the last few races this year.

I expect Kovalainen to be well up with Fisi and I wouldnt be surprised if he beat him over the season. That said Id like to see him do better for all the stick he's taken.

#5 Dudley

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 19:51

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor

Even if his team mate was much slower than him, Fisi still wouldnt have won more races as he has never actually finished 2nd behind Fernando. Quite unbelievable when Fernando has won 14 races in their time together. This isnt a bash, just facts..


Of course the other way to spin that is that Kimi and Michael were putting their cars where they really didn't deserve to be.

Still, an interesting stat.

#6 miniman

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 20:25

Kovalainen's stock is way overrated ever since he beat Schummi in some meaningless races in Paris a couple of years ago. I don't think he is any more promising than Kubica or Vettel, Giancarlo shouldn't be overly oncerned about his new teammate.

#7 man from martinlaakso

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 20:30

HK will be a rookie, and that will reduce his chances against an experianced driver like GF. However, I believe HK to be one of the fastest drivers in F1. To keep his shares up Heikki simply must beat GF, in other case he will become a member of the group "those who just did not fulfill the expectations".

#8 tkulla

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 21:17

I voted for Fisi to gather more points, but I think HK is the real deal and will be the quicker of the two by the end of the season.

#9 Bartus Garoulaitis

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 21:19

Jezus, we are discussing a chicken wearing wet feathers here, Heiki is just about to have his first hard on and he should be able to compete with Fisico? After Vettel everything is possible in F1, it seems, but GC should stop driving even scooters if that kid is coming just close...

Bartus(who thinks Heiki will end up singing in a Karaokebar with the other Finished ski-jumpers in three years from now)

#10 armonico

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:04

Originally posted by miniman
Kovalainen's stock is way overrated ever since he beat Schummi in some meaningless races in Paris a couple of years ago. I don't think he is any more promising than Kubica or Vettel, Giancarlo shouldn't be overly oncerned about his new teammate.


Talking about overrating, check the Hamilton threads or just some posts about the second coming...even without ever racing in F1. Not to mention F1 racing (and Autosport ones?) recent editorials and articles in which they suggested he would have done a better job than RAikkonen and Montoya together ;)

Kovalainen is only keen to finish his first races while Hamilton, some months ago was thinking to race Alonso and beat him since he has beaten all his previous team mates. His harder rival was Rosberg. After those kind of words, I think Ron and Co may have had some words with him since his lastest commets are more down to earth.

Kovalainen seems to be a hard worker. Alonso has praised him and he has accompanied Alonso on Thurdays inspecting the circuit and talking with him, learning from the champion. I think he will do well. He may also inherit the 'Alonso race team'.

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#11 Bartus Garoulaitis

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:16

Yeah...Hamilton, the next, present and previous Sato. Brilliant when driving an underpowered sewing machine and just not up to it when the monocoque starts scrubbing your back like a jackass-snowball-downhill-drift...I might get old but I tend to remember that a shaving-kit used to be a part of the luggage if you were to drive a F1-car...

Bartus(who is kind enough to make an exception for bearded Jacques and partly Emmo and Reine Wisell of course)

#12 angst

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:25

I'm sorry, but I just have to say that this poll says nothing about the merits of either driver. What it does say a hell of a lot about is this obsession with 'the next... (insert name here)', or perhaps with the paucity of F1 as a challenge to a new driver.

The fact that the poll is heavily in favour of Kovalainnen to beat Fisichella beggars belief. This is a young driver who has NEVER raced in F1.

#13 Gemini

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:38

Originally posted by angst
This is a young driver who has NEVER raced in F1.


This is Flavio's driver. And Flavio will protect his asset. That's why Fisi was re-signed at Renault. He will make sure Kovalainen shines in comparison to Fisi. Fisi is managable.

Yes I am cynical, but I think that's the way it is with FB. Anyway I wish all of us Kovalainen live to the promise, F1 needs new talents.

#14 FNG

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:50

Originally posted by angst

This is a young driver who has NEVER raced in F1.


As much as I would normally agree with you, but these days it doesn't seem to matter. F1 cars are easier to drive for the young rookies. Look at Kubica coming in and grabbing a podium in his third race. Vettel who is running competative times and he hasn't even reached puberty yet. Getting up to speed is one thing, racing and not making mistakes is another. So in that sense yah it might be hard. But honestly Fisi hasn't shown too much brilliance over the last 2 seasons so I can see it happening for sure.

#15 Mauseri

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 22:52

I dont know if either is the next big thing. Kovalainen is ready and he will be just fine and make a long (as long as someone coming at his age can) F1 career. Might even become champion one day, who knows.

Hamilton is more like fly or flop. I think he will flop. Specially under Alonso, he will crack and make an awful job and move to champcar or something.

#16 tidytracks

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 07:58

While I genuinely believe Heikki has the greater level of natural talent, I think he and Fisichella will be fairly equal at the start of the season. Then, as soon as the European season begins and Heikki gets to tracks he knows and Fisichella's legendary ability to let good oppotunities slip through his fingers makes another timely reappearance, Heikki will go on to completely dominate him.

As for Hamilton and Alonso, Alonso will of course have the measure of him over the course of the year, but Lewis won't be completely blown away. I think there's greater chance for an upset at McLaren, whereas at renault, i see it as an almost certainty that the rookie will outpace the man with more experience.

#17 clampett

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:28

Originally posted by The Kanisteri
Heikki will battle about WDC - Fisi will soon notice his job is again being mr. soft compound and he has to support teammate and bring some leftover points for team.


Sweet dreams basher guys!

Fisi will have no problems with oupacing Kova.

#18 clampett

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 08:34

Originally posted by tidytracks
While I genuinely believe Heikki has the greater level of natural talent, I think he and Fisichella will be fairly equal at the start of the season. Then, as soon as the European season begins and Heikki gets to tracks he knows and Fisichella's legendary ability to let good oppotunities slip through his fingers makes another timely reappearance, Heikki will go on to completely dominate him.


On the contrary. Fisi will have some confidence problems at the start of the next season which he inherited from the last 2 years. This will make Kova look better to him, who will try hard to prove his talent. Maybe even Kova will have the upper hand in OZ.

But while the season flows slowly it will be clear that Kova needs more improvement to beat his experienced teammate who will start gaining back his old form and won't make more mistakes.

#19 angst

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:44

Originally posted by FNG


As much as I would normally agree with you, but these days it doesn't seem to matter. F1 cars are easier to drive for the young rookies. Look at Kubica coming in and grabbing a podium in his third race. Vettel who is running competative times and he hasn't even reached puberty yet. Getting up to speed is one thing, racing and not making mistakes is another. So in that sense yah it might be hard. But honestly Fisi hasn't shown too much brilliance over the last 2 seasons so I can see it happening for sure.


Which is what I was saying. If a driver can come in with so little experience and start performing like some sort of God, even if their junior career has been 'patchy', isn't the WDC in danger of becoming a laughing stock? Time and again we hear from young drivers how 'easy' F1 is ( a relative statement, obviously, but nonetheless a worrying development), and we see the likes of Kubica and Vettel step straight in and be on the pace - and I mean right on the pace.

As the World Championship for Drivers, F1 really has to look at this.

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#20 kamix

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:07

I voted Fisi but only because he has 10 years head start. :rolleyes:

#21 Big Block 8

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:25

Originally posted by angst


Which is what I was saying. If a driver can come in with so little experience and start performing like some sort of God, even if their junior career has been 'patchy', isn't the WDC in danger of becoming a laughing stock? Time and again we hear from young drivers how 'easy' F1 is ( a relative statement, obviously, but nonetheless a worrying development), and we see the likes of Kubica and Vettel step straight in and be on the pace - and I mean right on the pace.

As the World Championship for Drivers, F1 really has to look at this.


Well, F1 car is a go kart on steroids and these kids have driven go karts all their life. Why actually should they be off the pace for long? To make a change into something that would require a long experience to master in a specific series, all I can think of is to ban telemetry data and make the drivers do their setups by themselves. That would however be almost impossible to police.

#22 Orin

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:33

It's a tough call to ask a rookie to beat an experienced driver in his first year. But I think the year spent testing will have paid dividends and Heikki will make a much more convincing debut than, say, Nico Rosberg. So I voted that Kovalainen will beat Fisichella.

#23 Big Block 8

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:39

Regs Fisichella-Kovalainen, Fisi has the experience, but average talent, Kovalainen has the inexperience and is an unknown talent. However, he did good in GP2 and as Flavio loves him, apparently he's done well in testing compared with Fisi and Alonso.

This is a 50-50 guess, I'll wait for the first few races to see it out. I do have the feeling though, that Fisichella is relatively stronger next year than the two last, because Renault is going to gear itself more around GF than it has used to do until today. I wonder how much time per lap that's worth.

First year should be fairly even, if HK is championship material.

#24 Earthling

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:37

Fisi has become soo undervalued its just nuts...
Its a waste untill the new season starts and we have some data to compare who will beat who.
Heikki is an unknown driver and there is no way you can judge him just by him having the same pace as Fernando and Fisi in testing.

Fisi was regarded as fast as they come, just not the good machinery. He wasnt comfortable and didnt have the car to his liking compared to Alonso, so his stocks fell down.

Next year is a different matter, so lets just wait and see!
Both are good drivers (judging Heikki winning the Race of Champions and beating the likes of DC, Alesi, and Schumacher, and almost winning the GP2 series last year).

#25 race addicted

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 13:49

Originally posted by Earthling
(judging Heikki winning the Race of Champions and beating the likes of DC, Alesi, and Schumacher, and almost winning the GP2 series last year).


Race of Champions doesn't mean much, and especially when there was problems in more or less every single heat with one of the cars. (Faulty gears, uneven tyre inflation etc etc)

Being very competitive in GP2, in a very competitive season - that counts for a lot!

I'm sure Kovalainen will do very, very well. He has impressed in testing, and he has also tested a lot, and judging from his own comments, he admitted to having problems with Alonso's speed, but seemed to think that he could handle Fisichella...
We'll see, but even if he turns out quicker, which wouldn't surprise me, Fisichella should still be able to score more points. Afterall, he is vastly more experienced, as others have mentioned.

And btw, Fisichella was only considered "as fast as they come", by Matt Bishop, Ghostrider and you (;) ). And maybe Eddie Jordan thought so too. I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Big Block 8

This is a 50-50 guess, I'll wait for the first few races to see it out. I do have the feeling though, that Fisichella is relatively stronger next year than the two last, because Renault is going to gear itself more around GF than it has used to do until today. I wonder how much time per lap that's worth.


I've always said the same. Fisichella is I believe, actually closer to Alonso than he's been able to show. But he probably wont be able to extract that before he's out of Alonso's shadow.

...Que 2007. I think we'll see a Fisichella that leaves a much better impression.

#26 HSJ

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 14:05

I voted for Fisi, but HK has a chance to come on top, especially if he is favored within the team (thanks to Flav). Fisi should come on top because he's so much more experienced, and Kovalainen has always needed time to adapt. Usually Heikki has started to do really well only in the 2nd half of his first season in a new series. It could be that in the first half of 2007 people will be really disappointed with Heikki and Fisi will score enough points to stay ahead by the year's end. But I won't be too surprised if Heikki manages to outperform Fisi, especially speedwise.

#27 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 14:17

Originally posted by clampett


Fisi will have no problems with oupacing Kova.

Are you really sure about that?

I rated Fisi very highly, next year will show if it was Alonsos superb speed that made him look like an idiot, or if he is just far below the driver i thought he is.

#28 Jodum5

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 14:19

Fascinating that only in 2004 Fisi was seen as a teammate killer now :rolleyes:

Anyway I voted for him on experience alone, but Heikki wont be far behind...

#29 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 14:27

Originally posted by Bartus Garoulaitis
Yeah...Hamilton, the next, present and previous Sato. Brilliant when driving an underpowered sewing machine and just not up to it when the monocoque starts scrubbing your back like a jackass-snowball-downhill-drift ...I might get old but I tend to remember that a shaving-kit used to be a part of the luggage if you were to drive a F1-car...

Bartus(who is kind enough to make an exception for bearded Jacques and partly Emmo and Reine Wisell of course)


See underlined above. You would know this how, if he has never raced in F1 before?

Pray tell why JV gets a pass for the facial hair?

#30 HSJ

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 14:37

Originally posted by clampett


Sweet dreams basher guys!

Fisi will have no problems with oupacing Kova.


Hmm, IIRC you predicted a WDC for Fisi in 2006, so I guess your current prediction will lead to a complete walkover for Kova over Fisi!

#31 clampett

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 17:51

Originally posted by HSJ


Hmm, IIRC you predicted a WDC for Fisi in 2006, so I guess your current prediction will lead to a complete walkover for Kova over Fisi!


Look when I registered to this board. So you not remember correctly.

#32 clampett

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 17:58

Originally posted by Cheap Wine Alesi
Are you really sure about that?

I rated Fisi very highly, next year will show if it was Alonsos superb speed that made him look like an idiot, or if he is just far below the driver i thought he is.


The only times when Fisi looked like an idiot next to Alonso was in Hockenheim and China.

The pace difference was a lot smaller than the difference between Schumacher and Massa. Only Renault wasn't as good as Ferrari.

#33 race addicted

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 18:05

I'm not sure that's really right. If we're talking qualifying, then yes, Fisichella did slightly better relative to Alonso, than Massa did to Schumacher.
I have a feeling that on race-pace, Massa was closer to Schumacher than Fisichella to Alonso.

#34 Mauseri

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 18:15

Originally posted by race addicted
I have a feeling that on race-pace, Massa was closer to Schumacher than Fisichella to Alonso.

I dont. Massa just looked better because he had the faster car.

#35 race addicted

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 18:33

Gap at the chequered flag, to respective team-mate:

................................ Massa........... Fisichella
Bahrain..................... +68.7
Malaysia................... -0.5
Australia.......................................... +38.4
San Marino............... +17.0.............. +38.2
Europe...................... +4.4............... +70.4
Spain........................ +11.9.............. +23.9
Monaco........................................... (+62.0)
Britain...................... +17.6.............. +19.9
Canada.................... +23.0.............. +15.6
US............................ +7.9................ -11.9
France...................... +22.5.............. +35.1
Germany................... +0.7................ +1.1
Hungary
Turkey........................ -5.6............... +41.0
Italy......................... +45.9
China............................................... +41.0
Japan............................................... +23.9
Brazil................................................ +11.6

Ave. ........................ +17.8................ +29.3 (+26.8)


These are the rough numbers as I haven't looked into any problems the two drivers may have had, in regards to a slow pitstop etc.
I did not include the races where I remembered something that rendered the results insignificant.

#36 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 18:47

Those numbers seem to suggest

a) Alonso is a hell of alot better than Schumi or
b) Massa is alot better than Fisi or
c) Schumi and Alonso are fairly equal, massa isnt far behind and fisi is miles behind (on average)

#37 race addicted

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 18:51

Well, for these numbers to really make any comparisons between Massa and Fisichella meaningful, one would have to assume/pretend that Alonso and Schumacher are equal.

All we really can say, is who did the better job relative to his team-mate.

#38 Mauseri

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 21:56

Those numbers also forget, that Ferrari was better car. If you win in superior car you dont need to push to the end, and your teammate may catch up. Also, I dont know why Malaysia isnt included for Fisi. There didnt happen weird things in the race. Alonso maybe was held back 10 sec due strategy but it was a good race for Fisi regardless.

#39 HSJ

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 07:15

Originally posted by clampett


Look when I registered to this board. So you not remember correctly.


okay, sorry, it was someone else then. :blush:

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#40 kamix

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 11:04

Originally posted by micra_k10
Those numbers also forget, that Ferrari was better car. If you win in superior car you dont need to push to the end, and your teammate may catch up. Also, I dont know why Malaysia isnt included for Fisi. There didnt happen weird things in the race. Alonso maybe was held back 10 sec due strategy but it was a good race for Fisi regardless.


Absolutely. Ferrari always slows down the last lap or two when they have a lead, and from my memories Renault doesn't do it anywhere near as much.

#41 race addicted

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 11:42

Originally posted by micra_k10
Those numbers also forget, that Ferrari was better car. If you win in superior car you dont need to push to the end, and your teammate may catch up. Also, I dont know why Malaysia isnt included for Fisi. There didnt happen weird things in the race. Alonso maybe was held back 10 sec due strategy but it was a good race for Fisi regardless.


The same can be applied to both teams, 'cause Ferrari are not alone in turning the wick down at the end if they're in a safe position. We've heard the same from Alonso and Symonds a bundle of times.

Of course I couldn't include Malaysia, when by mistake twice as much fuel as planned was dashed into Alonso's car! That wouldn't really reflect well on Fisichella, 'cause despite that setback, Alonso managed to finish just four-five seconds behind....

#42 mikedeering

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:12

I voted Kova just to piss clampett off.

#43 clampett

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:15

Originally posted by race addicted
Well, for these numbers to really make any comparisons between Massa and Fisichella meaningful, one would have to assume/pretend that Alonso and Schumacher are equal.

All we really can say, is who did the better job relative to his team-mate.


That's an interesting point. People compare Massa and Fisi by this so called gap, and assume that Schumi and Alonso raced on the same level. But why don't they calculate vice versa, so Massa equal to Fisi (which is an outrageous insult for Fisi IMO ;)), and Alonso drove (a lot) better than Schumi this year???

I think this latter makes much much more sense, because:

- Fisi have beaten Massa comfortably in 2004, with a car which was built in Massa's favour (he tested it for one year, and race with the team in 2002.)

- Schumacher made many mistakes this year, while Alonso did none. He had 2 average races with a lucky 5th and on the other occasions he was fought for the win or the 2nd (in Monza after a ridiuclous penalty for 3rd).

The only remaining question is, who drove better this year: Fisichella or Schumacher? (considering their team position and their car's level)
;)

#44 clampett

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:18

Originally posted by micra_k10
Those numbers also forget, that Ferrari was better car. If you win in superior car you dont need to push to the end, and your teammate may catch up. Also, I dont know why Malaysia isnt included for Fisi. There didnt happen weird things in the race. Alonso maybe was held back 10 sec due strategy but it was a good race for Fisi regardless.


Agreed 100%. And additionally these numbers don't show either that one driver is held up for laps or in Fisi's case in Imola, Nurburg and Monaco through the whole race.

#45 race addicted

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:29

Originally posted by clampett


That's an interesting point. People compare Massa and Fisi by this so called gap, and assume that Schumi and Alonso raced on the same level. But why don't they calculate vice versa, so Massa equal to Fisi (which is an outrageous insult for Fisi IMO ;)), and Alonso drove (a lot) better than Schumi this year???

I think this latter makes much much more sense, because:

- Fisi have beaten Massa comfortably in 2004, with a car which was built in Massa's favour (he tested it for one year, and race with the team in 2002.)

- Schumacher made many mistakes this year, while Alonso did none. He had 2 average races with a lucky 5th and on the other occasions he was fought for the win or the 2nd (in Monza after a ridiuclous penalty for 3rd).

The only remaining question is, who drove better this year: Fisichella or Schumacher? (considering their team position and their car's level)
;)


You are joking right? Yeah, you must be. Don't know why I asked.

I'll adress one point though; The Ferrari that Sauber inherited was NOT built to suit Massa!!!! Of fcuking course not. He was a mere test-driver FFS.

#46 HoldenRT

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:29

Originally posted by mikedeering
I voted Kova just to piss clampett off.


:lol:

I didn't vote myself as it's too early to say, but your reason is as good as any.

#47 clampett

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 13:18

Originally posted by race addicted


You are joking right? Yeah, you must be. Don't know why I asked.

I'll adress one point though; The Ferrari that Sauber inherited was NOT built to suit Massa!!!! Of fcuking course not. He was a mere test-driver FFS.


So he tested it for one year, while Fisi drove it first in February 2004 (IIRC), and Massa could beat Fisi in the first two races, that doesn't mean for you that the car was suited Massa more in early 2004? Or the term "built in Massa's favour" was so disturbing that force you to start insulting again instead of making an intelligent debate? :

#48 clampett

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 13:20

Originally posted by HoldenRT


:lol:

I didn't vote myself as it's too early to say, but your reason is as good as any.


This will make the victory more sweet next year, so thanks guys. :)

#49 race addicted

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 14:27

Originally posted by clampett


So he tested it for one year, while Fisi drove it first in February 2004 (IIRC), and Massa could beat Fisi in the first two races, that doesn't mean for you that the car was suited Massa more in early 2004? Or the term "built in Massa's favour" was so disturbing that force you to start insulting again instead of making an intelligent debate? :


You're always such a drama-queen. Where did I insult you?!
"Built in Massa's favour" is about as wrong as you could be. If it was built to suit anyone, it was Michael Schumacher.
Massa had a head-start, sure, but he also took a step back when he had to drive the car for Sauber, working with different engineers, and in addition, Fisichella was more experienced

I know you're keen on using 2004 as proof that Fisichella is bette than Massa, and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd also say he was better than Schumacher, but it doesn't work like that.
Everybody recognise that Massa anno 2006 is a different driver from who he was in 2004.

Btw, 2004 was Fisichella's best year I think. I rated him as the fifth best performer that year.

#50 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 14:32

Originally posted by race addicted

Btw, 2004 was Fisichella's best year I think. I rated him as the fifth best performer that year.


Who did you rate as the first 4 then?