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Honda RA302


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#1 FW11B

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 20:16

Further to a suggestion from macoran as to the next car to model I've started on the Honda RA302.

Rather an interesting one, am not too sure if I'm going to be able to do it justice, there's not too much reference material around, especially of the details. Still we'll see what happens.

To start off here's the basic chassis with the support for the engine.

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#2 FW11B

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 16:53

Few details added and, of course, a couple of rivets....

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#3 FW11B

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 22:13

Few more details, and rivets, and the first testiong of the complicated livery....
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working on dashboard next

#4 Macca

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 22:18

Some pictures from Monza 1968:

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Paul M

#5 JB Miltonian

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 23:12

Do you have the Werner Buhrer techical drawings as printed in Road & Track, 12/68?

#6 FW11B

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 19:52

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
Do you have the Werner Buhrer techical drawings as printed in Road & Track, 12/68?


Not to my Knowledge, I'm always open to additional reference materialto aid getting these models as acurate as possible.

Thnanks Macca, thos photos, while grainy do give a good view of the pedals, reservoirs etc :up:

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#7 JB Miltonian

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Posted 20 November 2006 - 23:37

I'll scan and send these to you if you send me a PM with your email address, OK?

#8 David M. Kane

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 01:45

Why did this car fail? It looks right...did the accident put everyone off including Surtees or am I all muddled up here?

#9 rdrcr

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 02:25

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Why did this car fail? It looks right...did the accident put everyone off including Surtees or am I all muddled up here?

Perhaps it was a case of Soichiro Honda wanting to push too far, too fast. The car, not fully sorted as warned by test driver Surtees(?), was pressed into service and ultimately killed the hapless Schlesser. As a personal speculation, was it the magnesium chassis of the RA302 giving too much flex to be predictable?

This tragic beginning, enough to give the fledgling F1 constructor pause - reevaluating what was required to compete with drivers, wanting to drive his cars.


---

Another nice start there FW - :up:

#10 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 08:44

FW11B

I have just had a look at your website for the first time and am not quite sure what I'm seeing. Are you creating attractive and interesting illustrations of these cars, or is this in preparation for constructing models of them?

I guess the illustrations are as a result of CAD, a bit after my time, as during my time as a an engineering draughtsman, clutch pencils were the current technological drawing aid!

As I said, I'm very impressed with your website.

#11 macoran

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 09:41

Originally posted by rdrcr
Perhaps it was a case of Soichiro Honda wanting to push too far, too fast. The car, not fully sorted as warned by test driver Surtees(?), was pressed into service and ultimately killed the hapless Schlesser. As a personal speculation, was it the magnesium chassis of the RA302 giving too much flex to be predictable?


Who will ever know how the RA 302 could have fared if tested and set-up properly.
When John Surtees tested the car, he found it uneasy and unstable, and refused to race it until he had tested it further.
Soichiro Honda was on a European tour in 1968 and was going to be present at the French GP. It was Honda France who insisted that the RA302 be entered for the GP. Schlesser was drafted in to drive it.

As a bit of technology, the RA302 was of a completely different level to the other period cars racing.
Sadly it's tenure ended in disaster.

#12 Bonde

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 10:11

Even if Honda eventually had got the RA302 right, handling-wise, it would still have been a very dangerous car to have a shunt in: Note how the driver's feet protrude well in front of the front axle line, with no significant structure around the foot-well. Even a minor frontal collsion would have shattered the driver's feet and legs, IMO.

#13 FW11B

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 12:43

Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
FW11B

I have just had a look at your website for the first time and am not quite sure what I'm seeing. Are you creating attractive and interesting illustrations of these cars, or is this in preparation for constructing models of them?

I guess the illustrations are as a result of CAD, a bit after my time, as during my time as a an engineering draughtsman, clutch pencils were the current technological drawing aid!

As I said, I'm very impressed with your website.


Thanks for the comments, these models are purely illustrative.

#14 macoran

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 21:31

Originally posted by Bonde
Even if Honda eventually had got the RA302 right, handling-wise, it would still have been a very dangerous car to have a shunt in: Note how the driver's feet protrude well in front of the front axle line, with no significant structure around the foot-well. Even a minor frontal collsion would have shattered the driver's feet and legs, IMO.


No IMO about it Anders !! you're absolutely right......just bleeding dangerous.

But I still find the rest of the car of huge technical interest.

#15 FW11B

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 21:52

Testing the nose, this will probably get re-modelled, I'm obviously not going to leave it like this there's bits of the chassis showing through, just getting an idea of how to model it...
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#16 Macca

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 22:15

In his autobiography, John Surtees said that when it arrived at Slough and he tested it at Silverstone it only did about two laps before the oil blew out; then after modifications it still wouldn't go far before there was a 'ping' from behind him as the head studs started snapping as it cooked itself. The oil/air cooling just didn't work............


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#17 Bonde

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 22:39

Marc,

I do agree that the car is refreshingly different and technically very interesting - for no rational reason, I've got a soft spot for air-cooled (sortof) engines. Apart from the safety aspect, I also like the structure of the RA302 - and I think it looks very interesting, too - as did most of the 1966-1969 cars as they evolved, slowly but surely, from the inherently pretty classic cigar shape and grew horny tyre sizes, sprouted aerodynamic appendages and left the big 3L engines and their induction and exhaust systems exposed for all to enjoy!

BTW: Were any detailed models or assembly kits ever produced of the RA302?


Keep up the good work, FW11B! Do you take comissions for contemporary Formula Fords?

#18 macoran

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 23:08

Originally posted by Bonde
BTW: Were any detailed models or assembly kits ever produced of the RA302?


Apparantly available to order:

http://www.modell-pa...make_Honda.html

#19 David M. Kane

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 00:12

That's a lot of stuff to cool with air!

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#20 Paul Taylor

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 05:23

What program do you use to make these, FW11B? 3DS Max?

#21 Jones Foyer

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 19:34

One problem with the engine was that they had trouble getting everything to cool evenly- and with the expansion and compression of metal due to temperature, nothing worked right- tolerances varied in different areas of the cylinders, etc. The reason the car was pushed through independetly of Yakamura's and Surtees' approval was pressure on French Honda dealers who had to sell the new air-cooled Honda sedan. The sedan ended up being very powerful but suffered the same weight issues as many of the models in Honda's 60's F1 program.

Surtees encouraged that an aluminium version be built but money and time ran out I guess. If you can read Japanese, there is a brilliant website set up now that focuses on this period of Honda's GP history including something that was unknown to me: Bucknum test drove the RA301 at Indianapolis in 1968.

http://www.honda.co....t4-1/index.html

Surtees wasn't allowed to drive because he didn't have a US rookie test under his belt like Bucknum did.

#22 FW11B

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 13:22

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
What program do you use to make these, FW11B? 3DS Max?


A little known programme called Cinema4D, not the best programme, but certainly not the worst, and I seem to be able to get reasonable results from it in a reasonable time. I've looked at Maya and Max but I haven't the patience to sit down and learn a new programme at the moment, what would take me hours to figure out in Maya or max I can do in a couple of minutes in Cinema4D.

Little bit more progress, also revisited the nose and have that better tahn it was now....

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It's fascinating to read all the posts concerning these cars :up:

#23 macoran

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 13:39

Coming alomg nicely !

Take care on some details though...that oil radiator up front is way too deep/thick.

#24 FW11B

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 15:40

Originally posted by macoran
Coming alomg nicely !

Take care on some details though...that oil radiator up front is way too deep/thick.


Any better? ....

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And the nose...

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#25 macoran

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 16:40

Originally posted by FW11B


Any better? ....

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yep,....matches the macca post fine

#26 Paul Taylor

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 18:36

Originally posted by FW11B


A little known programme called Cinema4D, not the best programme, but certainly not the worst, and I seem to be able to get reasonable results from it in a reasonable time. I've looked at Maya and Max but I haven't the patience to sit down and learn a new programme at the moment, what would take me hours to figure out in Maya or max I can do in a couple of minutes in Cinema4D.


I acquired Cinema 4D the other day, actually! :eek: I love it! :D I've only managed to design a sink so far, following a tutorial :p Never done 3D modelling before. Sorry to take the thread slightly off topic, but do you know how to cut shapes out of polygons? I can't work out how to make round holes. :

#27 FW11B

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 14:12

Working on the engine now....

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Not too sure about the details, most of the pictures I have have the engine hidden behind bodywork, exhausts and other bits of the car

#28 macoran

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 15:32

Hope this doesn't come too late

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#29 Art-J

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 17:37

A few front and engine shots from my archive. Plus a short article in "Model Cars". I hope these will come handy!

Cheers - Art

http://i24.photobuck...02bigpic_03.jpg

http://i24.photobuck...02bigpic_01.jpg

http://i24.photobuck...02bigpic_06.jpg

http://i24.photobuck...Italian20GP.jpg

http://i24.photobuck..._V5N11_p566.jpg

http://i24.photobuck..._V5N11_p567.jpg

BTW: I don't know much about this vB code thingy. How should I edit my post so that You guys could see my pics as thumbnails and not links like above?



#30 macoran

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 18:04

Great shots ART :up:
I don't know anything about Photobucket, I use ImageShack to do the thumbnails

#31 FW11B

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 19:37

Originally posted by macoran
Hope this doesn't come too late

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Thanks Macoran, that's enlightened me.... I was heading in the right direction :up:

#32 FLB

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 22:14

Originally posted by macoran
It was Honda France who insisted that the RA302 be entered for the GP. Schlesser was drafted in to drive it.

Johnny Servoz Gavin was first asked to drive it at Rouen. He declined and chose a well-tried Cooper-Maserati instead. Schlesser was very anxious to break into Grand Prix racing. By all accounts, he was delighted to drive it even if it wasn't quite good.

#33 Alan Cox

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 22:30

Hope this helps, Art - click on "Properties", copy and paste on IMG

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#34 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 23:25

Originally posted by Art-J
A few front and engine shots from my archive. Plus a short article in "Model Cars". I hope these will come handy!

Cheers - Art

http://i24.photobuck...02bigpic_03.jpg

http://i24.photobuck...02bigpic_01.jpg

http://i24.photobuck...02bigpic_06.jpg

http://i24.photobuck...Italian20GP.jpg

http://i24.photobuck..._V5N11_p566.jpg

http://i24.photobuck..._V5N11_p567.jpg

BTW: I don't know much about this vB code thingy. How should I edit my post so that You guys could see my pics as thumbnails and not links like above?

Art, where and when were the pictures of the car wearing number 5 taken?

#35 David M. Kane

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 05:30

Japan's answer to the BRM Type 15?

#36 Jones Foyer

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 23:50

Posted Image


Here's a pretty good shot of the interior as it was when it was raced in Rouen.

#37 Jones Foyer

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 00:54

Some really good RA302 pictures on this site:

http://netwarp.ddo.j...a302/index.html

#38 Art-J

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 17:23

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Art, where and when were the pictures of the car wearing number 5 taken?


Unfortunately, I don't really know it. As far as I remember from discussion on another board I got these shots from, they were probably taken somewhere in the '70s or '80s, in Japan. I have some photos from the same series, with RA300 and RA301 on them. I doubt that all the cars were in running condition when the pics were taken. The RA300 for example is painted in "Kyalami 1968" pattern, its tires are a little worn-out and it clearly shows some stain on engine parts and rust on brake discs. There's also a Japanese lady, posing next to it and she wears clothes and glasses obviously not from "our times" ;). So it must be long after the Honda withdrew in '68, but before they restored their cars to the tip-top state we can witness in the museum (or Goodwood) now.

The engine on the 302 looks very well and clean, but as I understand, this chassis nr 2 didn't spend much time on the racetracks, did it?...

Cheers - Art

#39 FW11B

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 17:34

Many thanks to monoposto, your assistance is greatly appreciated :up:

Have made some alterations to the engine following more reference material. Also got the basics of the gearbox in place....

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The gearbox may not necessarily be 100% acurate but I hope it's close enough to give the right impression of what it was like.

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#40 Paul Newby

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 06:37

I see from the cockpit shot that the tachometer reads to 16,000 rpm! :eek:

What were they revving the aircooled V8 to?

Was it really an advance over the V12 in terms of power and light weight?

#41 FW11B

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 11:22

Rear suspension underway...

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Few more alterations and details to add

#42 David M. Kane

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 14:08

I can't tell you how much fun your work brings into my small world. These cars you do are so neat!

#43 FW11B

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 17:56

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I can't tell you how much fun your work brings into my small world. These cars you do are so neat!


Thanks David, I have an enjoyable time creating the models. I hope they spark debate and an interest in the cars themselves, they deserve it. :up:

#44 macoran

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 21:32

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I can't tell you how much fun your work brings into my small world. These cars you do are so neat!


One reason why I pester him to do the one's I like to see :lol:

#45 FW11B

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 20:33

Still plodding away at this one.....

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#46 macoran

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 08:57

Originally posted by FW11B
Still plodding away at this one.....

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You are running a mite too much negative camber on the left front FW :D

Sorry....couldn't resist....please keep plodding :up:

#47 FW11B

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 13:15

Originally posted by macoran


You are running a mite too much negative camber on the left front FW :D

Sorry....couldn't resist....please keep plodding :up:


Just a tad

#48 Barry Boor

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 15:53

Please, what does half a tad look like?

#49 macoran

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 16:11

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Please, what does half a tad look like?


It all has to do with sense of perception Barry.....as with colours like BRG and Cooper Indy "blue".

I would estimate half a tad to be a sixteenth of a mite.

As I said perception ... here is FW saying he is plodding along...while he should be plotting...or doesn't the program work that way ? :D

#50 FW11B

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 11:26

Still working on this one when I get the chance, nearing completion....

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just the air ducts to do I think.

It's also had a pitstop for replacement tyres