Jump to content


Photo

Why do people call Lewis the First Black Driver...?


  • Please log in to reply
504 replies to this topic

#51 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 57,311 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 17:58

Originally posted by Rich


Karting is affordable.


Not terribly.

Advertisement

#52 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:06

This is just bloody stupid.

There is no way anyone can claim that Lewis Hamilton is the first Black F1 driver by definition.

If he is of mixed race then he is just another mixed race driver, from the UK.

If we are to say that because he has a bit of Negro, or the Latin 'niger' in him then we may as well have a deeper look at the Hispanic gene pool lest all people forget that the Moors occupied a greater part of what we know as Spain for nearly over half a millenium.

Moors which a condradiction in itself was a term 'darker skin' yet Moors were all shades and not ethnically bound to any particular shade though the majority of moorish slave were dark skinned.

Seeing though there was such a long period of occupation any hispanic driver is bound to have at least a portion of 'Niger' or 'Arab' in the blood lines so if we are prepared to state that Lewis has blood line attached so therefore is black then surely Alonso, Pedro, TM (can't spell his name) and just about and Hispanic decendant could probably trace some sort of North/West/Sahara African blood line.


Anywho carry on arguing over nothing

#53 qwazy

qwazy
  • Member

  • 288 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:08

Originally posted by nestor
Who cares , and for your info , there is no such thing as afro/ hispanic , JPM is latin, period; and here is the US ( the world's capital of racism), there is no black hispanics, they call us "browns", and yes there is a diference between skin color of a black and a brown hispanic, black is more dark and flat color and the hair is pretty much afro all the time, hispanic browns are a bit ligther with flat hair most of the time, so ther you have it , anyway who cares about all that color crap , as long as they drive as fast as they can , is all good with me.


You apparently dont have a clue and I wanna just disregard your post for simple ignorance but then you say that the U.S. is the worlds capitol of racism. I live here, and I'm half black but I'll tell you now that some of the things that happen in Africa put the U.S. to shame. Yes, we (the U.S.) have our stains in terms of civil rights and equality, but so does every other country.

You speak like you're the end-all in terms of how people preceive and how people are classified or identified in the U.S. You're wrong, there are afro/hispanics. And no, black is not always "more dark and flat color and the hair is pretty much afro all the time". That's such an ignorant, generalization that I almost dont know what to say in response. You're no authority on ethnicity and you're in absolutely no place to generalize and place stereotypes on people you apparently know nothing about.

#54 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:12

Originally posted by PassWind

Anywho carry on arguing over nothing


So, you're saying Lewis is wrong to define himself as black?

#55 Frank Tuesday

Frank Tuesday
  • Member

  • 902 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:13

Race is an entirely human invention. In historically racist and discriminatory societies, you take the race of your "least desireable" ancestor. In American society, the prestige of four largest races is white/asian/hispanic/black.

White mom + black dad = black baby
White dad + black mom = black baby
white + hispanic = hispanic
hispanic + black = black
asian + hispanic = hispanic
anything + black = black

Even those who are not racist have been taught this from birth, so it is engrained into their way of thinking.

#56 WHITE

WHITE
  • Member

  • 1,484 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:13

Originally posted by PassWind
This is just bloody stupid.

There is no way anyone can claim that Lewis Hamilton is the first Black F1 driver by definition.

If he is of mixed race then he is just another mixed race driver, from the UK.

If we are to say that because he has a bit of Negro, or the Latin 'niger' in him then we may as well have a deeper look at the Hispanic gene pool lest all people forget that the Moors occupied a greater part of what we know as Spain for nearly over half a millenium.

Moors which a condradiction in itself was a term 'darker skin' yet Moors were all shades and not ethnically bound to any particular shade though the majority of moorish slave were dark skinned.

Seeing though there was such a long period of occupation any hispanic driver is bound to have at least a portion of 'Niger' or 'Arab' in the blood lines so if we are prepared to state that Lewis has blood line attached so therefore is black then surely Alonso, Pedro, TM (can't spell his name) and just about and Hispanic decendant could probably trace some sort of North/West/Sahara African blood line.


Anywho carry on arguing over nothing



:up:

#57 Lorran

Lorran
  • Member

  • 153 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:13

Originally posted by qwazy


You apparently dont have a clue and I wanna just disregard your post for simple ignorance but then you say that the U.S. is the worlds capitol of racism. I live here, and I'm half black but I'll tell you now that some of the things that happen in Africa put the U.S. to shame. Yes, we (the U.S.) have our stains in terms of civil rights and equality, but so does every other country.

You speak like you're the end-all in terms of how people preceive and how people are classified or identified in the U.S. You're wrong, there are afro/hispanics. And no, black is not always "more dark and flat color and the hair is pretty much afro all the time". That's such an ignorant, generalization that I almost dont know what to say in response. You're no authority on ethnicity and you're in absolutely no place to generalize and place stereotypes on people you apparently know nothing about.


I agree Quazy. I've lived in the USA, The Bahamas, and the Uk and I've travelled extensively and i wouldn't categorise the US as the racist capital of the world.

#58 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:13

Anywho carry on arguing over nothing



To me, its an arguement b/w how people judge people. I say people dont bother to go into specifics, and judge them based on colour (hence making it difficult for them to get into the elite of a certain form of sport, or profession etc), while others are trying to take the politically correct route.

There is nothing wrong with being blunt about it either.

At the end of the day, we ended up in a good place and with a (hopefully) extremely talented young lad in the F1 crop now.

#59 Rich

Rich
  • Member

  • 11,808 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:24

Originally posted by carbonfibre
But still i can't see why having 22 differnent country drivers should help F1.


Nobody said anything about having 22 different nationalities in the field. That would be a quota system, which I've already said shouldn't apply.

Look at the bigger picture for a second. The F1 field is drawn from feeder series like GP2, F3, karting, etc. Those feeder series' fields are drawn from kids who believe they have a shot at making a career from racing.

Currently, there are many many countries where kids wouldn't even bother to try. The dream is just too unattainable. When Lewis Hamilton gets into F1, suddenly kids in Africa sit up and say whoa, a young black guy in F1, maybe this is doable after all. That inspires them to go and try karting. More kids trying to make it = greater competition = good for the sport's talent pool. Who's to say there isn't another Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher working in a Senegal petrol station right now as we speak?

We saw the same thing with football. Time was, the World Cup was a Euro/South American affair, African nations were not really welcome. The advanced footballing nations sneered at Africa's aspirations, and wouldn't allow them to play because 'they're Africans, they're just not at our level, unfortunately.'

When Zaire did first make an appearance, they were soundly whipped, and the Euros said 'Told you so...' But that first World Cup finals appearance was an important breakthrough that inspired African youngsters to put their all into the game. Thirty years later, we have African players like Didier Drogba throughout the Premiership and Euro leagues. Individual African nations haven't proved that they can win a WC yet, but their top players are certainly on par with other continents. The bonus is that it has hugely broadened the available talent pool, and made football more competitive and globally representative. People from all countries now feel that they are part of the global footballing scene. A barefoot kid kicking a tin can around in the steets of Lagos now has an attainable dream of one day playing for Real Madrid or Manchester United. It wasn't always like that.

Nobody is saying that every Premiership team should be obliged to sign an African player. Of course they will only sign those players who represent the best value for their limited funds. But from one glimmer of opportunity, like the first African appearance at the WC finals in 1974, talent flows and develops.

If you do indeed want to see the best, then Lewis being signed and being black should be great news for you. The fact that he is black is not an insignificant detail. Likewise, the fact that Zaire was an African team was not an insignificant detail at World Cup 74. It was a hugely important step for world football. Trying to downplay or deny it, on account of not wanting to be seen taking note of a competitor's skin colour because of 'racist' implications, is just crazy.

Advertisement

#60 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:26

Originally posted by BorderReiver


So, you're saying Lewis is wrong to define himself as black?



So what your saying is to be the first Black Driver you have to consider your self one?

If its skin color then Narian is darker.

If its geneology then I would lay money that any of the hispanic drivers have some bloodlines to Africa somewhere, either way its already been done, not an issue and its just another stereotype farce. The lad is quick and thats all that matters.

#61 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:30

Originally posted by PassWind



So what your saying is to be the first Black Driver you have to consider your self one?

If its skin color then Narian is darker.

If its geneology then I would lay money that any of the hispanic drivers have some bloodlines to Africa somewhere, either way its already been done, not an issue and its just another stereotype farce. The lad is quick and thats all that matters.


So are you saying he is wrong to consider himself black? Answer the question.

#62 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:31

For what it's worth, i completely agree with Rich, as he was better able to put my view on the table.

#63 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:35

Originally posted by BorderReiver


So are you saying he is wrong to consider himself black? Answer the question.


No and your point is?

#64 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:38

Originally posted by PassWind


No


So, it follows, that since he is black, and the first driver of directly Afro/Carribean descent to take part in Formula One, Mr Hamilton is F1's first black driver.

Yes or no?

Unless the level or your argument is that, basically, humanity started in the African sub-continent so we are all black?

Lewis Hamilton is the first driver of directly black parentage to race in Formula One, thats a fact that is totally, and incontrovertable undeniable. Why are people here so keen on taking that acheivement away from him?

#65 WHITE

WHITE
  • Member

  • 1,484 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:41

Is there any rule stating when a black or white person is no longer black or white by virtue of a determined number of mixings ?


A person is a person, and the only thing that should matter is whether he/she is a good person. The rest... should not matter.

A driver is a driver, and the only thing that should matter is whether he/she is a good driver. The rest... should not matter.

#66 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 18:48

Originally posted by WHITE
Is there any rule stating when a black or white person is no longer black or white by virtue of a determined number of mixings ?


A person is a person, and the only thing that should matter is whether he/she is a good person. The rest... should not matter.

A driver is a driver, and the only thing that should matter is whether he/she is a good driver. The rest... should not matter.


You see, that is totally correct, nobody is arguing that in any way here. However, the thing is, the fact that he IS someone who is DIFFERENT than the norm, IS a SIGNIFICANT occurance in F1, and THAT is no light matter.

What should be a perfect world is not the discussion at hand, but the significance of happenings in the REAL world is.

#67 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 57,311 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:01

Originally posted by Rich


Who's to say there isn't another Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher working in a Senegal petrol station right now as we speak?


He could just as easily be working at a 7-11 in Tucson, Arizona. Now who's going to pay for the karting career of either example?

I think anyone watching in Africa seeing Hamilton in F1 will think "oh, a European who isn't living in poverty made it to Formula 1. What's Formula 1?

#68 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:17

Originally posted by BorderReiver


So, it follows, that since he is black, and the first driver of directly Afro/Carribean descent to take part in Formula One, Mr Hamilton is F1's first black driver.

Yes or no?

Unless the level or your argument is that, basically, humanity started in the African sub-continent so we are all black?

Lewis Hamilton is the first driver of directly black parentage to race in Formula One, thats a fact that is totally, and incontrovertable undeniable. Why are people here so keen on taking that acheivement away from him?


So your saying that in order to be black you have to have some sort of percentage thing going on and it has to be from the African Sub Continent?

Aboriginals have been living in Australasia for around 40,000 years as far as we can tell and they consider themselves black.

Why is it an achievement, he is another British driver? Just happens to have dark skin, or there some sort of thing in Britian where dark british people aren't allowed to race cars?

See skin color doesn't mean anything in this case, granted if Lewis was from Nigeria then it would be indeed a great achievement from a Nigerian national, who by the way might happen to have dark skin.

Now your saying hey hang on its not the skin color its the ethnicity, because if its skin color then there is Narain. If its ethnicity then I am sure there have been drivers with African bloodlines.

Or is just that Lewis's ethnicity and he fits the stereotype becuase he has dark skin he fits the particular story the Media would like to work on.

Again its an argument about nothing, he is a new British driver who happens to have dark skin. Gee if you were to dig around into the geneology of Button, DC or Davidson you might find they were the first of a particular obscure ethnic background to race F1.

How come there isn't a whole lot of hoopla about Kubica driving in F1, because his skin color is white, yet he truly is a first. Again if its about skin color then Narian has been there and done that.

But because he doesn't call himself black he doesn't count right?

#69 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:26

Originally posted by PassWind

But because he doesn't call himself black he doesn't count right?


How do you define Black? You seem to just lump everyone who isn't white in with one another. That's scattergun and more than a little dumb/offensive. I doubt Narain considers himself as black, he probably considers himself Sub Continental Asian in terms of his ethnic background. That's his right, just as it is Mr Hamilton's right to consider himself black.

Regardless of your ridiculous lumping of the entire World's population into one of two camps, the fact remains, Lewis Hamilton is the first driver of black (ie. Afro Carribean) direct hereditory in Formula One. That, in the real world where people do get unfortunately marginalised for their skin colour, is an acheivement.

Sure he's British, but I've been at British motor-sport events for most of my life, and I'll tell you now that Black competitors are, for whatever reason, very much in the minority at those events. So good luck to Lewis, and fair play to him.

#70 Ben

Ben
  • Member

  • 3,181 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:37

Originally posted by PassWind



So what your saying is to be the first Black Driver you have to consider your self one?

If its skin color then Narian is darker.

If its geneology then I would lay money that any of the hispanic drivers have some bloodlines to Africa somewhere, either way its already been done, not an issue and its just another stereotype farce. The lad is quick and thats all that matters.


We all have bloodlines back to Africa - big deal.

It is correct to say that Lewis is the first F1 driver with Afro-Carribean parentage. This is obviously shorthanded in the media to "first black driver".

Narain is from Indian and would be described as Indian or more generally Asian. In the UK "black" means direct Afro-Carribean heritage.

Ben

#71 Rich

Rich
  • Member

  • 11,808 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:38

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
He could just as easily be working at a 7-11 in Tucson, Arizona. Now who's going to pay for the karting career of either example?


If he is working in Tucson, Arizona, there are already local open-wheel series and NASCAR which he could aim for. If those opportunities are insufficient, that is a limitation. However, I think we could agree that those limitations would be multiplied exponentially for a young driver living in Africa. Many Americans have made it to household name status in racing thanks to development/sponsorship opportunities Stateside. How many African drivers have done the same?

I'm not saying it's easy in the States, merely that it's more doable than in Africa. Anything that works to level out the inequity between Europe/Japan and the rest, even as a tiny step, is a plus. Michael Schumacher made it to the very top, despite very humble beginnings. If that sort of opportunity could be extended to kids in other parts of the world, that would be great. I'm not saying that Hamilton being signed will achieve that. It's just one small step in a much bigger and longer process.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think anyone watching in Africa seeing Hamilton in F1 will think "oh, a European who isn't living in poverty made it to Formula 1. What's Formula 1?


I think you'd be surprised by just how many F1 fans there are in darkest Africa. Admittedly, only a very tiny fraction of those would ever seriously consider racing for a living, even if it was recognised as being more achievable than the hopeless situation at present. But even a tiny fraction of a large population amounts to a significant number. There could be some great talents among them.

#72 Cojayar

Cojayar
  • Member

  • 1,617 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:42

Originally posted by Lorran


Look i didnt want this topic to degenerate into rude and abusive behaviour.


Then do not start stupid threads.

Because you did it to provocate some people or because your brain was turned off.

#73 Lorran

Lorran
  • Member

  • 153 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:53

Originally posted by Cojayar


Then do not start stupid threads.

Because you did it to provocate some people or because your brain was turned off.


Its clearly not a stupid thread. It must have been interesting enough to you to read through it and pick out a quote from me to use as an insult. If you considered it so stupid why did you waste your time?

#74 Cojayar

Cojayar
  • Member

  • 1,617 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:54

Originally posted by Fatgadget

As for Montoya,well,he is a Latino isn't he? :D

Can you put a definition of Latino?
This term used unfortunately very often as a discriminatory term, is even more unfortunately used referring to races. But many people using wrong terms doesn't make them correct.

#75 Rich

Rich
  • Member

  • 11,808 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 19:56

Originally posted by PassWind
How come there isn't a whole lot of hoopla about Kubica driving in F1, because his skin color is white, yet he truly is a first.


Conversely, why weren't there howls of protest when attention was drawn to Kubica's nationality? After all, aren't we all just one big jolly human race, and the colour of our national flag means nothing?

What's the deal with people readily drawing distinctions on the basis of passport or national flag colour, but not on the basis of skin colour? Is it for fear of being branded a racist? :confused:

I believe that both Kubica's and Hamilton's entries have been important for the same reason - they are providing assurance to kids from non-traditional F1 markets that success in the sport is achievable for them. Kubica appeals to Polish youngsters, Hamilton appeals to black youngsters. Neither has had a representative in F1 before. Both are great achievements that are helping to open up F1 to a broader talent pool. I don't see why we should allow acknowledgement of Kubica's achievement but deny Hamilton's. Again, is it out of fear for the dreaded 'R' word?

#76 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:09

Originally posted by BorderReiver


How do you define Black? You seem to just lump everyone who isn't white in with one another. That's scattergun and more than a little dumb/offensive. I doubt Narain considers himself as black, he probably considers himself Sub Continental Asian in terms of his ethnic background. That's his right, just as it is Mr Hamilton's right to consider himself black.

Regardless of your ridiculous lumping of the entire World's population into one of two camps, the fact remains, Lewis Hamilton is the first driver of black (ie. Afro Carribean) direct hereditory in Formula One. That, in the real world where people do get unfortunately marginalised for their skin colour, is an acheivement.

Sure he's British, but I've been at British motor-sport events for most of my life, and I'll tell you now that Black competitors are, for whatever reason, very much in the minority at those events. So good luck to Lewis, and fair play to him.



So he is British thanks for clarifying the point. The rest of your post is about his skin color which is irrelevant. He could be pink with purple spots, but he is British.

I am Australian but my decendants are European, yet no one would have an issue with that or not consider me Australian would they. But if I had dark skin..........................

See people are making an issue of his skin color for no reason at all because one it doesn't matter and two other people with dark skin have raced before, he is another British Race Driver.

#77 Lorran

Lorran
  • Member

  • 153 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:14

What Lewis has achieved is remarkable. But it would have been remarkable for anyone. Lewis is the driver i am most interested in watching (now that MS has retired) simply because i have followed his career from F Renault and his drives have been excellent. Its almost as if i have invested in his success. If he becomes a great, i can truly say that i predicted such before his general discovery.

Now that Lewis stands on the verge of fame many groups, races, places and interests are using him for their personal agenda. Even down to defining who he is and who he should represent racially. This pushing and pulling of outside forces is even more definite because of the realization of the phenomenon that is Tiger Woods and how he single handedly changed the demographics of Golf's viewers and also the commercial template of the game. Commercially golf has probably grown tenfold with the arrival of Tiger. Imagine if Lewis beats Alonso in 2007. F1 will at least double its commercial revenues.

The fact that Lewis is not fully black and that there are others of African descent who have driven in F1 is not relevant to many groups. With his fame and his image Africans and Black Caribbeans will claim him as theirs even though he is half white and the media has a wonderful story and Bernie can follow the Tiger Woods model all the way to the Bank.



#78 Cojayar

Cojayar
  • Member

  • 1,617 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:20

Originally posted by PassWind
This is just bloody stupid.

There is no way anyone can claim that Lewis Hamilton is the first Black F1 driver by definition.

If he is of mixed race then he is just another mixed race driver, from the UK.

If we are to say that because he has a bit of Negro, or the Latin 'niger' in him then we may as well have a deeper look at the Hispanic gene pool lest all people forget that the Moors occupied a greater part of what we know as Spain for nearly over half a millenium.

Moors which a condradiction in itself was a term 'darker skin' yet Moors were all shades and not ethnically bound to any particular shade though the majority of moorish slave were dark skinned.

Seeing though there was such a long period of occupation any hispanic driver is bound to have at least a portion of 'Niger' or 'Arab' in the blood lines so if we are prepared to state that Lewis has blood line attached so therefore is black then surely Alonso, Pedro, TM (can't spell his name) and just about and Hispanic decendant could probably trace some sort of North/West/Sahara African blood line.


Anywho carry on arguing over nothing

Are you saying that Morocans or Algerians are black? Or the arabs you mention? Even the Berbers that count more of half of the population of Marocco? And due the this there where many black people in Spain? And therefore something like Hispanic/Black is not an invention?

As you point out (in an strange way) there are no pure races during centuries there has been a mix of people.

As someone in this thread said, there are only three races and none of them is black or white. If you don't like don't buy it.

#79 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:22

Originally posted by PassWind



So he is British thanks for clarifying the point. The rest of your post is about his skin color which is irrelevant. He could be pink with purple spots, but he is British.

I am Australian but my decendants are European, yet no one would have an issue with that or not consider me Australian would they. But if I had dark skin..........................

See people are making an issue of his skin color for no reason at all because one it doesn't matter and two other people with dark skin have raced before, he is another British Race Driver.


So you completely missed the dis-enfranchisement of the Afro-Carribean race and the civil rights movement did you? You don't know what all of that means and why having a black driver in the sport is a good thing?

Or does that stuff not matter to you?

Just how obtuse and ignorant are you? To marginalise an entire people's struggle for equality with "skin colour is irrelevant". Your either living in a Utopia which nobody else inhabits, or you're just seeking to degrade someone's acheivements because he happens to have a British passport.

Sickening. Your anulling a guy's acheivement because you are too ignorant to understand what exactly that acheivement is.

Advertisement

#80 Cojayar

Cojayar
  • Member

  • 1,617 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:28

Originally posted by Frank Tuesday
Race is an entirely human invention. In historically racist and discriminatory societies, you take the race of your "least desireable" ancestor. In American society, the prestige of four largest races is white/asian/hispanic/black.

White mom + black dad = black baby
White dad + black mom = black baby
white + hispanic = hispanic
hispanic + black = black
asian + hispanic = hispanic
anything + black = black

Even those who are not racist have been taught this from birth, so it is engrained into their way of thinking.

Hispanic is a race? Only in a racist country whose name I'll not mention.

But I agree you that half "white" and half "black" is considered by many as "black". Why not as "white"?

But from my point of view this is racism as it's done mainly to discriminate (negatively) those people. And accepting it is being part of this racism.

In the case of LH it seems that being considered black could be a positive discrimination. This is probably why LH is playing this game.

But who cares? Let's open a new thread about the first driver with green eyes?

#81 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:31

Originally posted by Rich


Conversely, why weren't there howls of protest when attention was drawn to Kubica's nationality? After all, aren't we all just one big jolly human race, and the colour of our national flag means nothing?

What's the deal with people readily drawing distinctions on the basis of passport or national flag colour, but not on the basis of skin colour? Is it for fear of being branded a racist? :confused:

I believe that both Kubica's and Hamilton's entries have been important for the same reason - they are providing assurance to kids from non-traditional F1 markets that success in the sport is achievable for them. Kubica appeals to Polish youngsters, Hamilton appeals to black youngsters. Neither has had a representative in F1 before. Both are great achievements that are helping to open up F1 to a broader talent pool. I don't see why we should allow acknowledgement of Kubica's achievement but deny Hamilton's. Again, is it out of fear for the dreaded 'R' word?



So it is about race thanks.

He is the first Negroe decendant to race F1, well done Lewis. I hope other Negroe decendants want to partake in racing in the future as Negroe decendants are most welcome.

#82 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 57,311 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:35

Originally posted by Rich




I think you'd be surprised by just how many F1 fans there are in darkest Africa. Admittedly, only a very tiny fraction of those would ever seriously consider racing for a living, even if it was recognised as being more achievable than the hopeless situation at present. But even a tiny fraction of a large population amounts to a significant number. There could be some great talents among them.


So these people have the means, and have the opportunity; but because until Lewis Hamilton they didn't have the example, they simply couldn't be bothered? This is worse than the tripe last year that Danica Patrick was breaking down barriers.

The only barrier in motorsport is financial.

#83 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:35

See people are making an issue of his skin color for no reason at all because one it doesn't matter and two other people with dark skin have raced before, he is another British Race Driver.



So so easy to say, its quite amusing. Why, then, has no other black person been in F1 yet so far? Is it because everyone who tried sucked? I highly doubt that, because of the black people that DO compete in any form of sport, they are either neck and neck with the competition, or they completely anhilate their series of sport.

If you make the distinction that no black person has ever gone into motorsport before, and motorsport is different from other sports, then are you trying to say that black people don't know how to drive (competitively in a racing environment)?

I highly doubt it.

If skin colour was not an issue, we would have seen black F1 drivers in the past, and there wouldnt be (a group of - it seems...) people who ARE making an issue out of it as it is happening now.

Your humanitarianism is to be applauded, if you feel that skin colour is not an issue to you if you were in a position to choose someone to race for your team, were you ever in such a position. Thats wonderful and :up: to you, however, when it comes to the powers that be, it hasnt happened before, and there is no denying it. To you his skin colour doesnt matter, but it DOES matter to others (unfortunately), and, therefore, to see this happen right now IS EXTREMELY relevent no matter how much you try to downplay it.

On the other hand, I believe your agenda is more anti british than anything else, the fact that he is a british black person annoys you because, in your eyes the british media is making a bigger deal out of this than it is, for whatever reason.

But the fact is, that it isnt a small deal, and the fact is, the more media exposure this gets, the better it is.

#84 Calorus

Calorus
  • Member

  • 3,395 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:41

Tip: there's nothing more retarded than a big group of predominantly white people having a big discussion about about the difficulties of being Black.

Particularly because there aren't really any - other than the odd biggots and the constant refernces to a completely trivial difference.

#85 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:45

Originally posted by Cojayar

Are you saying that Morocans or Algerians are black? Or the arabs you mention? Even the Berbers that count more of half of the population of Marocco? And due the this there where many black people in Spain? And therefore something like Hispanic/Black is not an invention?

As you point out (in an strange way) there are no pure races during centuries there has been a mix of people.

As someone in this thread said, there are only three races and none of them is black or white. If you don't like don't buy it.


No it was purely an example that pointed out that not all Africans have dark skin and that there are direct decendants in Europe and more than likely that they have raced.

Here you could be red hair blue eyes and still considered yourself black, because you may be decended from an aboriginal background you only need 1/16th to be considered and Aboriginal if you so wish to declare. So are all Africans Black or just if they look Black.

Again define it and I will show you historically why these racial slots we put people in are ridiculous.

#86 Bubu's

Bubu's
  • Member

  • 38 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 01 December 2006 - 20:51

DANNY ONGAIS,THE FIRST BLACK DRIVER IN F1

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Danny Ongais (born May 21, 1942) is a racecar driver from the United States.

Born in Kahului, Maui Island, Hawaii, he is the only native Hawaiian to compete at the Indianapolis 500. A motorcycle, sports car, Formula One, and drag racing competitor, in 1963 and 1964 Ongais won the American Hot Rod Association AA Gas Dragster Championship and in 1965 he added the National Hot Rod Association AA Dragster championship title.

A flamboyant figure on the racing circuit, Danny's nickname was "On-Gas" for his 'balls to the wall' driving style.

He was a Formula One driver who participated in six Grands Prix, debuting on October 2, 1977. He scored zero championship points. In 1996 at the age of 54, Ongais agreed to be the substitute driver for Scott Brayton in the Indy 500 who had died in a practice crash shortly before the race. Starting last, Danny finished 7th in what was his final 500.

In 1981 he had a horrible accident in Indy 500, which almost cost his life. Several arm and leg breaks as well as internal injuries were the result.

He never won an Indianapolis 500 race, but history will remember him fondly for his stylish driving outfits and workmanlike driving, and he remains the pride of Hawaiian motorsports to this day. Not only is he a motorsports legend, but much like Joey Meyer, a larger than life Hawaiian sports hero.

Wikipedia

#87 Rich

Rich
  • Member

  • 11,808 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 01 December 2006 - 21:01

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


So these people have the means, and have the opportunity; but because until Lewis Hamilton they didn't have the example, they simply couldn't be bothered? This is worse than the tripe last year that Danica Patrick was breaking down barriers.

The only barrier in motorsport is financial.


They don't currently have the means and opportunity, that's the exact problem. You are correct that funding is limited and is the main barrier. Which is why funders look for investments that are going to give them the best returns. Inevitably, they will go with precedent and invest where the most visible successes have occurred.

Boris Becker's success promoted tennis development in Germany. Bernhard Langer's success promoted golfing development. Tiger Woods' success promoted investment in black golfers, where previously they would have been encouraged to go into boxing, football, track and field or basketball. I've no doubt that Fernando's success will make it a lot easier for Spanish kids wanting to get into F1. One exceptional achievement can change the whole funding situation.

#88 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,851 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 21:07

Originally posted by The Big Guns


So so easy to say, its quite amusing. Why, then, has no other black person been in F1 yet so far? Is it because everyone who tried sucked? I highly doubt that, because of the black people that DO compete in any form of sport, they are either neck and neck with the competition, or they completely anhilate their series of sport.

If you make the distinction that no black person has ever gone into motorsport before, and motorsport is different from other sports, then are you trying to say that black people don't know how to drive (competitively in a racing environment)?

I highly doubt it.

If skin colour was not an issue, we would have seen black F1 drivers in the past, and there wouldnt be (a group of - it seems...) people who ARE making an issue out of it as it is happening now.

Your humanitarianism is to be applauded, if you feel that skin colour is not an issue to you if you were in a position to choose someone to race for your team, were you ever in such a position. Thats wonderful and :up: to you, however, when it comes to the powers that be, it hasnt happened before, and there is no denying it. To you his skin colour doesnt matter, but it DOES matter to others (unfortunately), and, therefore, to see this happen right now IS EXTREMELY relevent no matter how much you try to downplay it.

On the other hand, I believe your agenda is more anti british than anything else, the fact that he is a british black person annoys you because, in your eyes the british media is making a bigger deal out of this than it is, for whatever reason.

But the fact is, that it isnt a small deal, and the fact is, the more media exposure this gets, the better it is.


Points taken it doesn't particularly annoy me however there seems to be some sort of wierd fetish not only in the Media who mainly push peoples buttons to evoke a response which by natural occurance evokes interest therefore generates exposure and gets MORE money in the coffers.

My agenda is to question the reason why the first supposition even questioned his race, who cares. He is British, his dad is of Jamican decent. He happens to have dark skin to go with that. There are plenty of British black sportsmen, although having worked in London I did notice that having the first black soldier in a Household Division Regiment was a mega big deal. In 1996 I thought that was quite backwards. Some of the derogative comments from some of my international peers was appalling so yeah I get it, its a big deal in Brittain. It ain't a big deal anywhere else sport crossed this barrier when Jesse Owens was really up against it. Owens had to ride the freight elevator to attend a reception for him at the Waldorf-Astoria. He later recounted:

"When I came back to my native country, after all the stories about Hitler, I couldn't ride in the front of the bus. I had to go to the back door. I couldn't live where I wanted. I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either"

This is simply not a story of Lewis Hamilton the poor black kid against the odds, well I hope it isn't like that in Brittian is it?

#89 Calorus

Calorus
  • Member

  • 3,395 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 01 December 2006 - 21:28

Originally posted by Rich


They don't currently have the means and opportunity, that's the exact problem. You are correct that funding is limited and is the main barrier. Which is why funders look for investments that are going to give them the best returns. Inevitably, they will go with precedent and invest where the most visible successes have occurred.

Boris Becker's success promoted tennis development in Germany. Bernhard Langer's success promoted golfing development. Tiger Woods' success promoted investment in black golfers, where previously they would have been encouraged to go into boxing, football, track and field or basketball. I've no doubt that Fernando's success will make it a lot easier for Spanish kids wanting to get into F1. One exceptional achievement can change the whole funding situation.

No, they do have the means and the opportunity, middle class is middle class is middle class.

The fact that they may have been more drawn to music or football as far as role models are concrened is the difference.

People invest in talent.

#90 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 01 December 2006 - 21:32

Originally posted by Bubu's
DANNY ONGAIS,THE FIRST BLACK DRIVER IN F1


Except he isn't black. He's an Hawaiian, a totally different ethnic background to an Afro/Carribean.

Are people round here really so culturaly unaware as to describe anyone with dark skin as black?

#91 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 December 2006 - 22:15

To cover another post (the TIP: one), i have a

HINT: Im nor black, nor am i white, so your assumptions can end right over there thanks very much.

anyways.

Yeah passwind, i mean, in terms of media, you have to look into their point of view, first and foremost, everyone is out there to make money. If something does happen, the media wants to make as much of a deal of it as it can, and milk it as much as it can. This happens in any country, and there is always more than one side to a story, therefore, there are always different points of views and, hence, sources that people would rather attune themselves to than others.

And you stated it yourself right now about people that you knew making derogatory comments towards people of different ethnic/cultural backgrounds or simply those with different skin colour, even if you or i think it is backwards, a portion of the worlds population (regardless of the nation of residence) is like that, and it is in the face of these detractors that things like this must happen.

Personally, look, i dont care whether hamilton was 1/4 1/8 or even 1/1000 black technically speaking, because if i was one of the people who openly and readily judges people who are different from them, none of that would matter to me.

This is why, i take it as a significant occurance (which should be advertised in the media, to a degree) to show these people, that anyone, no matter who they are, is able to go out there and do what they want (regardless of whether it was easy or hard or whatever, just the fact that they are "different") if they get the opportunity to.

We have to remember that a portion of these people that i mention who dont like to see other cultures etc succeed are the big decision makers, and if the one breakthrough occurs, then it really does open the doors to others who want to atleast try to achieve the same.

#92 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,033 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 01 December 2006 - 22:54

Originally posted by Keir
By "Black", you must mean of the negroid race ??

One of the three races on this planet Earth, the others being, caucasian and mogoloid.


Wrong, there are four fundamental races on this planet


White

Black

Semitic

Chinese/Oritental "Mongoloid"

Each then branches off into their own different groups, ie Mexicans are from Arabs and so on...

#93 Calorus

Calorus
  • Member

  • 3,395 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 02 December 2006 - 00:20

Originally posted by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001


Wrong, there are four fundamental races on this planet


White

Black

Semitic

Chinese/Oritental "Mongoloid"

Each then branches off into their own different groups, ie Mexicans are from Arabs and so on...


Also wrong, Aboriginals have no more connection with Afro-Carribeans than Whites, West-Asians or East-Asians.

#94 Victor

Victor
  • Member

  • 437 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 02 December 2006 - 00:25

Originally posted by Frank Tuesday
Race is an entirely human invention. In historically racist and discriminatory societies, you take the race of your "least desireable" ancestor. In American society, the prestige of four largest races is white/asian/hispanic/black.

White mom + black dad = black baby
White dad + black mom = black baby
white + hispanic = hispanic
hispanic + black = black
asian + hispanic = hispanic
anything + black = black

Even those who are not racist have been taught this from birth, so it is engrained into their way of thinking.

The word “races” is no longer applied for human beings, the correct word is “populations”. And this is not ment to be politically correct, it’s just that there are not enough differences between human populations as to be catalogued as different races.

#95 MPea3

MPea3
  • Member

  • 2,144 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 02 December 2006 - 00:32

Originally posted by BorderReiver


Except he isn't black. He's an Hawaiian, a totally different ethnic background to an Afro/Carribean.

Are people round here really so culturaly unaware as to describe anyone with dark skin as black?


Yes.

#96 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 02 December 2006 - 01:16

Originally posted by MPea3


Yes.


Sadly it seems they are . . .

#97 Sunflower

Sunflower
  • Member

  • 171 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 02 December 2006 - 02:18

Originally posted by Dudley


You're the only one to make a racist comment in this thread.



No it isn't.

It's important to try and have the best 22 drivers in the world.

Anything else is completely 100% irrelevent as an aim.



No, it's light brown.



Yes, being funded for the last 12 years by Mercedes must have been hell.


Let me put my 2c in. I am South African and not black nor white. I also have a light brown skin color. When we were in the Apartheid area i was classified as Coloured now we have a new Regime under a Black President. I am still classified as Coloured but when i enter a Sport things change. Like Ashwell Prince representing the South African Cricket Team he is coloured but the day he captained the team he was called black. Whites are in the minority in our country but they have the biggest representation in almost all sport except Soccer. I stand to be corrected but i think Soccer is the only sport they dont have the biggest representation in.
Lewis Hamilton is a Young Black F1 Pilot. JPM is a Latino ex F1 Pilot. Thats it really. And Hamilton breaking into F1 will and is greating big interest for those people who do not watch the sport. When he starts fighting for the Championship then you will see the amount of Black people starting to watch the Sport. The same with Rugby in our Country it used to be for Whites only when Chester Willaims made his name big in the World Cup he was called a hero not just by Coloured People but by white people too. But white people will still have their discussions and talks and the racists words they used in the apartheid era are still used. I reckon Hamilton must know something that he does not like and prefer to be Black.

Damn i should stop now.

#98 Mauseri

Mauseri
  • Member

  • 7,521 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:08

Hamilton isnt black. Not even close... he is brown. And out of the brown, he isnt 100% african...

So what do people who shout 'racist' if we talk about colors and races say now that it's the 'colored' using it to his advantage? If Kimi started talking about being role model for blue eyed and white skin boys :rotfl:

#99 BorderReiver

BorderReiver
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:18

Originally posted by micra_k10
Hamilton isnt black. Not even close... he is brown. And out of the brown, he isnt 100% african...

So what do people who shout 'racist' if we talk about colors and races say now that it's the 'colored' using it to his advantage? If Kimi started talking about being role model for blue eyed and white skin boys :rotfl:


You're disgusting.

Advertisement

#100 Mauseri

Mauseri
  • Member

  • 7,521 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 02 December 2006 - 03:45

Originally posted by BorderReiver
You're disgusting.

The hatred is all in your head mate. It not about what you read, it's what you are.