92 replies to this topic

[Stefan Schmidt]

Enzo Ferrari said in 1962:

„Mike Hawthorn è stato un pilota sconcertante per le sue possibilità e la sua discontinuità. Un giovane capace di affrontare e risolvere quelunque situazino con un coraggio freddo e calculato, don una prontezza eccezionale,ma incline anche a cadere vittima di paurosi cedimenti. ..“

What is your opinion regarding Mike Howthorn??

[Ivan]

Ever think of translating that?!

[FLB]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt
Enzo Ferrari said in 1962:

„Mike Hawthorn è stato un pilota sconcertante per le sue possibilità e la sua discontinuità. Un giovane capace di affrontare e risolvere quelunque situazino con un coraggio freddo e calculato, don una prontezza eccezionale,ma incline anche a cadere vittima di paurosi cedimenti. ..“

What is your opinion regarding Mike Howthorn??

Hum, well, although the general culture level is quite high on TNF, not everybody speaks Italian!

"Mike Hawthorn was an amazing driver for his possibilities and his lack of constance. A young man able to face and resolve any problem (situation) with cold and calculating courage, gifted with exceptional speed, but also inclined to fall to frightening lapses"

[Mal9444]

substitutung 'consistency' for 'constance', I'd say Enzo was spot-on.

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by Ivan
Ever think of translating that?!

Sorry, have forgot it..

[RA Historian]

I was just a young lad when Mike was racing, but I was fascinated by him. Inever saw him race since I am on this side of the pond and Hawthorn only drove at Sebring in the US (off hand, as far as I know),. He seemed to have a certain swagger, a charisma about him. As a lot of us back then, I was disappointed when he beat Moss to the '58 title, but got an appreciation of him from a wonderful article by Denise McCluggage in Sports Cars Illustrated at the end of that year. I, of course, was hit hard when he died.

Perhaps that has contributed to his image over the years since. You know, the glorious but flawed knight, venturing out on missions of conquest and failure. Reminds me somewhat of that poem we had to read in school, can't remember the name or author, but it was about a soldier dying young.

I bought Mon Ami Mate when it came out ten or so years ago and, while it was the most money I had ever spent on a book up until that time, I considered it money well spent and an excellent book. Told me a lot about Hawthorn that I had never known. One of these days when I have the time I will have to go back and read it again.

[EcosseF1]

He's certainly an interesting figure. Not the driver Moss was but there's no shame in that, and on his good days very quick indeed. He didn't really deserve the '58 title but I've never got the impression that Moss held it against him. Given the tragically short amount of time left to him I'm glad he won it .

[LOLE]

I’ll take this opportunity to ask all TNF-members and Mike Hawthorn fans on this forum if they have a photograph of Mike on the rostrum of the 1954 German GP (finished equally second with Froilan Gonzales behind J.-M.Fangio). I’m most interested to see the trophy he received for I think that I have it in my possession…Just to be certain…Thanks in advance!

[Stefan Schmidt]

I almost hate to ask the following:

Why did he hate everything which was related to Germany? Was there a special unpleasant incident in his life (except WW2, even when he wasn’t involved as a part of the army)??

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt
Why did he hate everything which was related to Germany? Was there a special unpleasant incident in his life (except WW2, even when he wasn’t involved as a part of the army)??

Unless someone knows better I think it was just reaction to the second War.
I think that not being part of an army, one might be more upset by the thought that airmen of another nation were trying to kill you, than if you were.
During the war, aged 10-16 years, JMH lived and was at school in southern England, where a good deal of bombing occurred, culminating in the rather random and very frightening V1 attacks.
I expect many Germans of his age didn't think much better of the British for bombing them: I remember one of my German friends (about 6 years younger than JMH) in the 1980s still reacting quite badly when he heard a Lancaster fly overhead to a nearby airshow.

[Scuderia SSS]

Originally posted by RA Historian

Reminds me somewhat of that poem we had to read in school, can't remember the name or author, but it was about a soldier dying young.

I think you mean "Dulce et Decorum Est" by Wilfred Owen. Did the appreciation myself many years ago.

As for Hawthorn, one of the drivers that always fascinated me to read about. His widow is still alive, albeit a little eccentric i think. Images of MH always provoke great feelings for me, i only wish i could have seen him race, especially at the wheel of the 553

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Scuderia SSS


As for Hawthorn, one of the drivers that always fascinated me to read about. His widow is still alive, albeit a little eccentric i think. Images of MH always provoke great feelings for me, i only wish i could have seen him race, especially at the wheel of the 553

I don't think Mike was ever married. Do you mean Jean Haworth, his fiancee, who later married Innes Ireland?

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton


Unless someone knows better I think it was just reaction to the second War.
I think that not being part of an army, one might be more upset by the thought that airmen of another nation were trying to kill you, than if you were.
During the war, aged 10-16 years, JMH lived and was at school in southern England, where a good deal of bombing occurred, culminating in the rather random and very frightening V1 attacks.
I expect many Germans of his age didn't think much better of the British for bombing them: I remember one of my German friends (about 6 years younger than JMH) in the 1980s still reacting quite badly when he heard a Lancaster fly overhead to a nearby airshow.

That's a reason!

How far do you think was he involved (in regard of responsibility) in the 1955 Le Mans drama?

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt


That's a reason!

How far do you think was he involved (in regard of responsibility) in the 1955 Le Mans drama?

I have no independent view, as I wasn't there, but I can say that in a true racing accident if any individual involved had not done precisely what he did, the outcome would have been different (though not necessarily better).
Chris Nixon in "Mon Ami Mate" covers it well, in my view, and has the benefit of a lot of previous analysis,

[D-Type]

This accident has been covered extensively

As Allan says, in Mon Ami Mate Chris Nixon devotes a whole chapter to the accident and has clearly researched it thoroughly.

This website contains a thorough investigation and analysis, including a list of references.

There was a book published in 2005, the 50th anniversry, about the accident and its consequences, but I've forgotten its title.

Near contemporary reporting can be found in Mike's autobiography Challenge me the race where he gives his carefully written and edited side of the story. It also features in Peter Miller's The Fast Ones.

My feeling is that it is best viewed as a 'racing incident' triggered but not caused by Hawthorn's late turn into the pits. There are so many other contributory factors that he cannot be blamed for the accident - I believe that was what the official enquiry found.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by D-Type
...
My feeling is that it is best viewed as a 'racing incident' triggered but not caused by Hawthorn's late turn into the pits. ...

While I agree that we can not and should not apportion blame I don't quite understand the distinction in the quote above.

triggered but not caused?

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by jcbc3


While I agree that we can not and should not apportion blame I don't quite understand the distinction in the quote above.

triggered but not caused?

More or less what I said: if anyone involved had done something different, the outcome would not have been the same. To expand (I don't want to do too much of that) : if Macklin had reacted differently to the trigger, the accident might not have been caused.

[doc knutsen]

Paul Frere's account, aided by the film from the spectator area, sums it up very well. A racing incident, and no fault of any of the involved drivers.

[KJJ]

I don't think anyone has posted this report on the unveiling of the memorial plaque to Mike Hawthorn in his Yorkshire birthplace.

[RS2000]

One thing I recall about Hawthorn was being, as a child of single digit years, "awed" in his close proximity. Probably just because of his height, but I was fortunate to have got within feet of most of his contempories except Fangio at least once and don't recall being similarly impressed by any others.

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by EcosseF1
He's certainly an interesting figure. Not the driver Moss was but there's no shame in that, and on his good days very quick indeed. He didn't really deserve the '58 title but I've never got the impression that Moss held it against him. Given the tragically short amount of time left to him I'm glad he won it .

Hawthorn fought hard for that championship, and the points for fastest laps (4 or 5?) are an indicator for some of a champion. He was gutted at the end of the season by Collins death, and the only time he wasn't fighting was at Morroco for the last race of the season.

I saw him doing some managing the Ferrari team on the first day of practice at the 1958 British GP, a side of him we wouldn't think for the prankster.

Amongst other things, I think of him as a real scrapper, happy and able to take on anyone, including Fangio. The losses in 1957 and 1958 at the German GP were in, my opinion, after looking at the lap times, caused by he and Collins tooling around until the brilliant charges by Fangio and Brooks caught them.

[Jager]

Originally posted by D-Type

There was a book published in 2005, the 50th anniversry, about the accident and its consequences, but I've forgotten its title.

My feeling is that it is best viewed as a 'racing incident' triggered but not caused by Hawthorn's late turn into the pits. There are so many other contributory factors that he cannot be blamed for the accident - I believe that was what the official enquiry found. [/B]

I was born long after the passing of Mike Hawthorn, so my only knowledge of him was as a result of his association with Le Mans. I purchased the book mentioned, Christopher Hilton's "The Crash That Changed the Face of Motor Racing". While not specifically blaming Hawthorn, the book creates a strong the impression that he was central to the tragedy.

Then, only a little while ago I came across a link the Mike Hawthorn Tribute here on TNF :

http://www.mike-hawt....uk/lemans2.php

Looking down the page shows a series of head on photo's of the incident that I had not seen before and which weren't in the book. What it shows is that while Macklin definitely had to swerve to avoid Hawthorn, he was still barely over the centre line of the track. What it also showed is that Levegh never reacted to Macklin's maneuve. Having seen these pictures I now have a different view of the incident, and apportion much less blame to Hawthorn that I did initially after I had read Christopher Hilton's book.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Claus Myhr, here on the Ian Raby thread

A gay 47 years old racer by passion.

????????

[Twin Window]

Isn't the word gay - used in its 1950s context, of course - also to be found on Mike Hawthorn's tombstone?

[tonyb]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Isn't the word gay - used in its 1950s context, of course - also to be found on Mike Hawthorn's tombstone?

Yes, there was talk of removing the word 'gay' from the inscription but it hasn't happened...



http://www.mike-hawt...rg.uk/grave.php

[Doug Nye]

I have heard talk quite frequently of late about changing the inscription upon Hawthorn's gravestone.

As if the gratuitous painting of some of its carving in recent years hasn't been naff enough, now somebody airily presumes some kind of 'right' to deface and/or alter an inscription which was plainly chosen/approved by his sole surviving parent, her surviving family and closest friends at the time of her bereavement, just to cover present - and quite possibly transient - questions of language use.

Who the do these people think they are!???

'Gay' in period (1959) was a perfectly respectable word accepted by the vast majority of English-speakers worldwide as describing and celebrating hilarity, fun, enjoyment, good humour, partying in some style. All of which were intrinsic components of Hawthorn's character and personality.

Just because some homosexual militants apparently adopted the initials 'G', 'A' and 'Y' to claim a right to be 'Good As You' in some - I presume - northern Californian nooftah battalion during the '60s/'70s - and since the western world's Homintern has since powered the word's homosexual connotations to the forefront through the '80/'90s - should be no cause for anybody to tinker with a memorial which is nobody's but the dust lying beneath it, and the life celebrated upon it... I would repeat who the do these nitwits think they are????

T s...

DCN

[Barry Boor]

May I respectfully agree with everything my most learned friend said in the previous post?

Well said, Doug!

[tonyb]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


I have heard talk quite frequently of late about changing the inscription upon Hawthorn's gravestone.

Who the do these people think they are!???

'Gay' in period (1959) was a perfectly respectable word accepted by the vast majority of English-speakers worldwide as describing and celebrating hilarity, fun, enjoyment, good humour, partying in some style. All of which were intrinsic components of Hawthorn's character and personality.

DCN

Couldn't agree more Doug. If implemented, it would amount to nothing less than desecration.. Any idea where exactly the suggestion first originated?

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

DCN:

Here, here...

It is a travesty of our times that language can be twisted. Some would claim that it is natural evolution. I beg to differ. It's corruption.

[Paul Rochdale]

I would also agree with most of what you said with the exception that the subtle colouring of the highlights on the headstone look fine to me. I know you live closer and probably have visited it far more often than most of us but I understand that the grave was at one time in a pretty poor condition and that the owner of Hawthorns, the TVR garage, spent time and money restoring the grave. It's now cared for and pristine.

[Lec CRP1]

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
DCN:

Here, here...

It is a travesty of our times that language can be twisted. Some would claim that it is natural evolution. I beg to differ. It's corruption.

Perhaps you can enlighten me about what's so 'corrupt' about homosexuality and it's influence on language? Language and meanings of words have changed constantly in all places and throughout history and is not a 'travesty of our times'.

[Twin Window]

I've moved the Hawthorn-orientated posts from the Ian Raby thread to here.

[jcbc3]

While completely agreeing with DCN's opinion of the proposed alteration of the stone, shouldn't the barrels of your gun be pointed at the homophobics rather than the homosexuals?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Lec CRP1
Perhaps you can enlighten me about what's so 'corrupt' about homosexuality and it's influence on language?

I can't see where anyone's described homosexuality as 'corrupt'

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Corrupt I said and corrupt I meant.

You can take it any way you like.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin

It is a travesty of our times that language can be twisted.

My dear Confucius, this statement is self-contradictory ;)
Anybody who uses a notion like "our times" should accept that the meaning of words may change.

Apart from that it's quite possible that one hundred years from now the word "gay" may well have yet another quite different meaning - or returns to what one may now think as being the original one.

[Twin Window]

Can we now please call a halt to the whys and wherefores of sexual orientation because, with regard to the contextual reference visible on the gravestone, this has now been covered.

Anyone wishing to carry on should take it to the Paddock Club forum, please.

Thanks.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Quite.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

As I have been in greater London and the Netherlands on business during the past few weeks, I had occasion to stop in Farnham to visit the grave of JMH on a very wet and windy Wednesday.

While my visit was not long in duration owing to the weather, I felt it important to stop and pay my respects to Mike.

I truly enjoyed the Georgian beauty of Farnham and the occasion to visit the resting place of England's first world driving champion.

[Stan Patterson]

A GOOD FELLOW...loved Britain ..a decent chap ... no Moss BUT ON HIS DAY WAS CLOSE

[Keir]

One in a long line of genteman racers !

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
A GOOD FELLOW...loved Britain ..

Except when it came to National Service.

I am DEFINITELY going to Hell.

Had it not been for his illness, would he have had a much greater record? Not many beat Ascari in identical cars...

Originally posted by scheivlak
Apart from that it's quite possible that one hundred years from now the word "gay" may well have yet another quite different meaning - or returns to what one may now think as being the original one.

Already is changing - now "gay" is being used to mean "a bit rubbish".

[Agnis]

Of the young British driver gang of the 50ies (also includes Moss, Collins and Brooks), Hawthorn was the first to gain international success, first to be hired by a major team and later first and only of them to win the world championship, so I must conclude that he was the best of them. Moss may have more career wins but if he was better then why didn't he impress Ferrari or Maserati more than Hawthorn in 1952?

[David McKinney]

Moss and Collins both had works drives before Hawthorn. Brooks of course came along a few years later.
It is well known that Moss was offered a Ferrari drive in 1951 but turned it down.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Moss and Collins both had works drives before Hawthorn. Brooks of course came along a few years later.
It is well known that Moss was offered a Ferrari drive in 1951 but turned it down.

Hear, hear.

My own view is that Hawthorn lucked-in when, albeit unknown to him at the time, Ferrari snubbed Moss over the Taruffi business at Bari. That humiliation in front of his father very deeply hurt Moss. I am sure that what really hurt was not so much the change of plan, perhaps not even that he wasn't told until he got there, but the obviously deliberate and calculated offhandedness of Ferrari himself coupled with the arrogant rudeness of the mechanic. Just imagine it: you are a young British driver of demonstrable world-class talent heading for your first works drive in the undisputed top team on the personal invitation of the top man of a normally ferociously patriotic foreign equipe. Moss must have seen the golden road to samarkand opening before him... the build-up of quiet excitrement... doing his best not to feel too smug... his father's pride (I think I am correct in saying that had it worked out, Moss would have been the first British driver to be signed by Ferrari). Then treated like **** when you get there - and by a mechanic. Humiliating is hardly the word for it.

Then the problem was that the pride of each man got in the way. Moss was damned if he was going to ever put himself in such a position again, Ferrari was damned if he was going to apologise, even tacitly, to someone who was just a driver.

That left the way open for Hawthorn to have a more or less free run in the fastest and most reliable GP car of the era. If Ferrai had honoured his word and Moss had driven the Ferrari at Bari he would, surely, quickly have become the Ferrari No 1 driver - certainly had a permanent place in the team - rather than Hawthorn. And had that been the case there must be at least an odds-on chance that Britain would have had its first world champion long before 1958 - and it would not have been Mike Hawthorn.

Everyone talks about Moss losing the world title to Mike by just one point and that point being one of the points Moss's evidence on Mike's behalf at Portugal restored to his rival. In fact, what gave Mike the title was Phil Hill feigning engine trouble at Cassablanca just a couple of laps from the end after Moss had set fastest lap and secured first place. This let Mike through into the second place he needed, Brooks in his Vanwall having retired (while ahead of Mike) and poor Stewart lewis-Evans having crashed, fatally as it turned out. I am sure I have read somewhere that the Ferrai team manager went down on his knees with the signal to Hill to let Mike past.

In 1958, Hawthorn had the more reliable car, and although he won only one grand prix scored in nine: Moss won four and scored in only one other.

None of which, I hasten to add, is in any way intended to detract from Mike's reputation or denigrate in any way his undoubtedly brilliant abilities.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Mal9444
If Ferrai had honoured his word and Moss had driven the Ferrari at Bari he would, surely, quickly have become the Ferrari No 1 driver

Ever heard of guy called Ascari?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by scheivlak
Ever heard of guy called Ascari?

Ascari's record in 1952-53 is excellent, but has more than a little to do with the mechanical reliability of the Ferrari 500. From memory, over those two seasons there were only about four retirements due to reasons other than accidents. Ascari and Farina both had almost 100% finishing records in WDC races.

Even as a youngster, Moss had more mechanical sympathy for a car than (say) Farina. I'm sure he'd have done at least as well as Ascari, given the chance. Though Ferrari team orders might have been harder to stomach ....

[Andrew Ford &F1]

Originally posted by Agnis
Of the young British driver gang of the 50ies (also includes Moss, Collins and Brooks), Hawthorn was the first to gain international success, first to be hired by a major team and later first and only of them to win the world championship, so I must conclude that he was the best of them. Moss may have more career wins but if he was better then why didn't he impress Ferrari or Maserati more than Hawthorn in 1952?

Moss could have easily got a drive at one of the top-notch teams. But being a patriot, he dreamt of winning the world tilte at the wheel of a British car. Only after struggling with less than competitive
machinery for quite a while, he changed his mind and joined Mercedes. There's a great article about that on 8w.forix.com, forgive me for not remembering the link.

As for Hawthorn, he is best remebered for being the first driver from the British Isles to win the World Championship. The greats like Graham Hill, John Surtees, Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart would all become World Champions after Mike, who aslo had a habit of racing, wearing a tie. By the way, any good quotes by the first British World Champion?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Andrew, Ford &F1
By the way, any good quotes by the first British World Champion?

"I hear Stirling got the OBE."

"Yes. Order of the Bald 'Ead."

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by scheivlak
Ever heard of guy called Ascari?

I don't think there is much real debate, is there, that Moss was every bit as good as Ascari? As Vitesse points out, any ascendancy the statistics might offer Ascari in such a comparison is easily explained by the disparity of the machinery. The real block to Moss-in-a-Ferrari becoming world champion would have been Juan Manuel Fangio.

As to the drive British thing, yes Moss was English, and wanted to win in an English car (his words, not mine - he once famously described Rob Walker as being almost English, and Walker blue as being 'a sort of green' - it was only later that 'British' became the accepted word: in those days 'British' and 'English' were regarded as synonyms - unless you happendd to be Scots, Welsh or Irish) but I am fairly sure that that patriotic wish became a determination only after Bari. After all, he went down there readily enough. You can safely bet that, had the Bari drive worked out, Moss would have had no hesitation in accepting Ferrari's offer of a team place, nor that the offer would have come readily enough. And when Ken Gregory in 1953 learned that Mercedes were coming back to racing there was not too much searching of the patriotic conscience before he approached Neubaeur to seek a place for his boy in the German team for 1954 - and this not a decade after the end of the War. And when the German boss said the boy should show what he could do in a grand prix car, there was no hesitation in going back to Italy. Just what young Moss might have said or done had his manager's coin come down the other way, and Gregory bought a Ferrari with Stirling's money rather than a Maserati is of course a matter for speculation. I don't deny that Moss had a great wish to win the championship for England, in an English car - but on his own evidence alone no less a compelling urge was to do it in anything that was not a Ferrari.

And that was really the point I was trying to make. Ferrari's careless snub of Moss, and then the latter's determination to have no truck nor dealings with Enzo Ferrari was perhaps Mike Hawthorn's luckiest break.