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#1 cosworth bdg

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 04:04

Matra, where are the chassis and engines now?

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#2 AAA-Eagle

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 04:24

Well, you'll find something in Matra's museum. ;)

#3 philippe7

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 07:16

Fascinating story about Henry Pescarolo trying out the Matra 640 replica here
http://www.museematr...dex.asp?page=25
....for those who may not know, the original 640 nearly took Henry's life ( and let him with significant burn scars on his face....) when it took off on the Hunaudières straight in 1969.

#4 Bonde

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:19

On the topic of Matra:

What year was the last Matra F3 produced? And why did Matra leave F2 at the end of 1969? Was it due to a master plan to concentrate on F1 and Sports-Prototypes, or did the F2 regulations also require bag tanks from 1970, requiring a completely new Matra F2 tub, which Matra wasn't prepared to invest in. After all, Matra had done rather well in F3 and F2, so in a way it seems a shame they withdrew without really consolidating a long-term position in those formulae.

And, oh, the wail of the Matra V12 - simply the best-ever sound in F1, IMO...

#5 Stephen W

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:24

Originally posted by Bonde
And, oh, the wail of the Matra V12 - simply the best-ever sound in F1, IMO...


The first time I heard the Matra V12 was at Monaco in 1968. I was sat in the Casino Grandstand and this glorious noise enveloped the whole square. It reverberated round the buildings long after the not-so-slim blue cigar-shaped projectile had headed off down the hill. It was fabulous! I still get goose-bumps when thinking about it.

:love:

#6 philippe7

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 12:15

http://perso.orange....m/chs_matra.htm

I had found this site a while ago which seemed very well informed and trustable . It lists the various Matra Chassis used at Le Mans, and on the last line for each chassis are their current whereabouts . It's in french but I'm sure you'll understand the basics . One thing to note is that many cars displayed in the Romorantin museum are in fact not "originals" : when it says that MS 660 01 is in the museum " restaurée en 670 01 le mans 72" , it means that the 660 01 has been "re-dressed" as the first Le Mans winning 670 , since the "real" one was not available ( having itself been disguised into a "670 B 02 " , the 1973 winner chassis , whose original had been given to Jean-Pierre Beltoise - who recently had it up for auction incidentally ) . Mind you, this homepage is "last updated in 99" some some cars may have changed hands.....the ex-Beltoise one to start off with , or the one which I saw two years ago in the Lohéac museum, don't know which one that was .


There is also another list in a "famous" :rolleyes: website which also lists the various chassis , including in races outside of Le Mans which adds a little bit to the picture, but some informations are conflicting with the ones of the first page I listed, which I would tend to consider as more trustworthy.....anyway the link is :
http://wspr-racing.c...assis/matra.htm

#7 algis

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 13:57

You may want to see:

http://wspr-racing.c...assis/matra.htm
http://wspr-racing.c...MatraTypes.html

#8 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 14:01

Beltroise just sold his and I know Abba Kogan owns one of the F1 cars too.

#9 tobbe j

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 14:52

Only three F1 Matra

MS9, Loheac Collection

MS120B -004, (The Centaur Complex auction 2006)
MS120B -005, David Coplowe (2006)

#10 Twin Window

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 14:58

Originally posted by philippe7

Henry
Pescarolo

:eek:

And you're French aren't you, Philippe?! :D

#11 philippe7

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 17:01

Originally posted by Twin Window
:eek: And you're French aren't you, Philippe?! :D


:blush:

#12 Mischa Bijenhof

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 22:26

The MS120/2 is currently in the hands of a private owner in Holland, and beautifully restored.

#13 macoran

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 23:10

Originally posted by Mischa Bijenhof
The MS120/2 is currently in the hands of a private owner in Holland, and beautifully restored.



is vd G planning to run it anywhere ?

#14 RA Historian

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 00:02

Originally posted by Bonde
And, oh, the wail of the Matra V12 - simply the best-ever sound in F1, IMO...

My favorite memory of the sound of any racing engine any where was Mosport, 1971. The morning warmup was done in the fog and rain, and very few cars went out. However, during a lull in the action, Beltoise and Amon went out in the MS-120s and did a couple laps. Since they were the only cars out, one could follow them all the way around the 2.4 miles by ear. The V-12s screamed up and down through every up and downshift. Because the track was quite wet, every now and then the rear wheels would break away and we would hear, "whooooooooo WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP whooooooo...." It was absolutely mesmerizing and I can remember it vividly to this day.

#15 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 00:44

Nurburgring, 1972, the first GP I attended. I was audiotaping cars coming out of the woods and heading off over the highway and up the hill to Flugplatz. Race winner Ickx came blatting through sounding great, but was soon drowned out by the roar (scream?) of Amon's Matra. It occurred to me later that the short "upward blips" in their revs as they went away in the distance was them getting airborne at various places further along the circuit...and I lost the tape!

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

#16 Mischa Bijenhof

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 15:52

Originally posted by macoran



is vd G planning to run it anywhere ?


For as far as I know, he's not planning to run it. He does take the car to various meetings though, for display purposes.

#17 David M. Kane

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 13:57

What happen to Abba Kogan's car?

#18 philippe7

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 14:15

One of the MS 120 "A" and the one and only MS 120 "D" were in the Romorantin museum for sure last time I visited. Not sure about any other I'm afraid.

#19 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 11:10

Originally posted by RA Historian
My favorite memory of the sound of any racing engine any where was Mosport, 1971. The morning warmup was done in the fog and rain, and very few cars went out. However, during a lull in the action, Beltoise and Amon went out in the MS-120s and did a couple laps. Since they were the only cars out, one could follow them all the way around the 2.4 miles by ear. The V-12s screamed up and down through every up and downshift. Because the track was quite wet, every now and then the rear wheels would break away and we would hear, "whooooooooo WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP whooooooo...." It was absolutely mesmerizing and I can remember it vividly to this day.


Slightly OT but I can remember almost exactly the same scanario at Silverstone during the pre GP test in 1989. I sneaked into the pit lane just as Berger's Ferrari was fired up and screamed out onto the wet track all be itself. It was one of those murky damp Silverstone afternoons with little wind or once and you could hear the car round the whole lap - in the days before the mickey-mouse bits were added. Berger was obviously having a bit of fun as he let rip out of the Woodcote chicane and let the wheels spin in every gear. For a coule of laps he was all on his own getting faster and faster, the wheelspin audible as far away as Stowe, the revs on that V12 (which of course was new for that season and I hadn't heard before) reaching previously undreamed of heights....
Absolutely magical. One of my favourite motor sport moments and luckily I do still have the tape recording of it. I must dig it out.

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#20 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 12:37

Since it IS Matra related, I can remember one of those crisp, cool, typically gorgeous fall days at the 'Glen' in 1970, walking through the woods along the front straight and just being 'enveloped' for lack of a better word by the wail of Beltoise and Pescaralo's Matras as they flashed by. One of those moments in time that are as fresh today as they were close to 40 years ago.

#21 Keir

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:12

1972 for me and the last time the "real Matra" engine wail was heard !! At the "Glen" !!

Until Goodwood, of course !! ..... but not really in true anger !!

#22 bigears

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:15

I am extremely interested to have an audio file of the glorious Matra wail so I can try to hear it myself.

So anyone? :)

#23 Rob Ryder

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:34

Originally posted by bigears
I am extremely interested to have an audio file of the glorious Matra wail so I can try to hear it myself.
So anyone? :)


Matra 1

Matra 2

Matra 3

Rob

#24 scags

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:41

thanks, sounds great.

#25 jj2728

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:54

Originally posted by Rob Ryder


Matra 1

Matra 2

Matra 3

Rob


Ahh yes....what a "proper" Grand Prix engine should sound like........

#26 bigears

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:54

Thank you very much.

As I am deaf and I tried to listen hard for that well known Matra 'whoop.' I think it is there in the first audio file there.

#27 sterling49

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 22:08

Originally posted by RA Historian
My favorite memory of the sound of any racing engine any where was Mosport, 1971. The morning warmup was done in the fog and rain, and very few cars went out. However, during a lull in the action, Beltoise and Amon went out in the MS-120s and did a couple laps. Since they were the only cars out, one could follow them all the way around the 2.4 miles by ear. The V-12s screamed up and down through every up and downshift. Because the track was quite wet, every now and then the rear wheels would break away and we would hear, "whooooooooo WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP whooooooo...." It was absolutely mesmerizing and I can remember it vividly to this day.


.....1972, British Grand Prix, Brands Hatch, end of South Bank onto the long circuit and the same excitement, a DFV sounds great, but the wail of these V-12's was just so very special.

#28 T54

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 22:33

What year was the last Matra F3 produced?


1968. It was delivered as the 1st prize to Volant Shell winner, Claude Vigreux. After Vigreux's death, the car was sold by the family to Jean-Claude Guenard. I have some pictures taken then that I absolutely need to scan...

T54

#29 vashlin

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 23:47

Originally posted by RA Historian
My favorite memory of the sound of any racing engine any where was Mosport, 1971. The morning warmup was done in the fog and rain, and very few cars went out. However, during a lull in the action, Beltoise and Amon went out in the MS-120s and did a couple laps. Since they were the only cars out, one could follow them all the way around the 2.4 miles by ear. The V-12s screamed up and down through every up and downshift. Because the track was quite wet, every now and then the rear wheels would break away and we would hear, "whooooooooo WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP whooooooo...." It was absolutely mesmerizing and I can remember it vividly to this day.


RA...I was there that day at Mosport and, like you, it is my favorite memory (out of many) of the sound of a racing engine. We were stationed at the farthest point on the circuit (turn 5?) and I recall the absolute silence of the crowd for several stunned moments after the Matra's sound died away. From behind us came, "That's almost better than sex!" From someone else, "Almost?!"

#30 Bonde

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 23:59

Thanks, T54. Lovely little cars - although as I've never had the chance to see one in the metal, I'd love to see some "up close and personal" pictures.

Are there any records of Matra F3 chassis being raced beyond 1968 (I assume some of the chassis must've seen the 1-litre formula out) - likewise, does anyone know when a Matra last participated in a F2 race?

IIRC, all F2 and F3 Matras used sealed integral tanks, as did the F1 cars up to the MS80, which is why it was such a remarkable one-season wonder in F1. The integral tanks enabled a significantly stiffer and stronger chassis structure (for a given weight) than the bag tank containers, as the latter severely limited the number of compartments the structural boxes could be subdivided into.

Judging by the closeness of rivets and the density of substructure (revealed by all those rivets) on an integral tank Matra chassis, I suspect that those chassis would have stood up to impacts almost as well as later-day aluminium honeycomb chassis - especially the MS80, with its large cross-section. So how was the safety record of the Matras compared to their contemporaries - IIRC, Stewart broke a wrist in a F2 Matra in 68 at Jarama, so I was wondering if anyone could tell us about the circumstances of that shunt?

#31 RA Historian

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 01:11

Originally posted by vashlin


RA...I was there that day at Mosport and, like you, it is my favorite memory (out of many) of the sound of a racing engine. We were stationed at the farthest point on the circuit (turn 5?) and I recall the absolute silence of the crowd for several stunned moments after the Matra's sound died away. From behind us came, "That's almost better than sex!" From someone else, "Almost?!"

:up:

#32 dbltop

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 06:59

I also was at Mosport in 71, also at turn 5. My first GP and only 14 years old, the whole experience was almost too much to take in. I vaguely remember it rained a bit that day! :p

#33 vashlin

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 18:59

This is probably getting off topic...but I seem to recall fog being the main problem on race day at Mosport in 71. There was some discussion about whether or not to hold the race and Amon's Matra (and a few others, Stewart maybe?) were sent out to see if conditions would allow the race to go on.

Memory is failing......

#34 jj2728

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 19:51

Originally posted by vashlin
This is probably getting off topic...but I seem to recall fog being the main problem on race day at Mosport in 71. There was some discussion about whether or not to hold the race and Amon's Matra (and a few others, Stewart maybe?) were sent out to see if conditions would allow the race to go on.

Memory is failing......


According to AUTOMOBILE YEAR No.19 the weather was indeed gloomy and the race itself was delayed by 100 minutes due to the death of a Formula Ford driver in an earlier event. From what I can gather the Grand Prix got underway after 4 pm and was cut short from 80 to 64 laps by the organisers because of the deteriorating weather conditions.

#35 Cirrus

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 20:04

Are there any records of Matra F3 chassis being raced beyond 1968 (I assume some of the chassis must've seen the 1-litre formula out)



On checking the reference section in the back of the relevant Sheldon books, it appears that Matras did appear right up until the end of the 1 Litre formula, an MS5 being listed as racing in 1970. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to check the "when and where" details.

I wonder how many still exist?

#36 RA Historian

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 00:13

Originally posted by vashlin
This is probably getting off topic...but I seem to recall fog being the main problem on race day at Mosport in 71. There was some discussion about whether or not to hold the race and Amon's Matra (and a few others, Stewart maybe?) were sent out to see if conditions would allow the race to go on.

Memory is failing......

You are partially right. The 1971 race was delayed, but as stated, due to a fatality in a FF preliminary. It was wet and foggy, but that did not delay the start.

What is ringing a bell in you mind is the 1972 race which was very, very foggy. Nothing much happened for a good portion of the day as the circuit was fogged in solid. As the afternoon wore on, it began to appear as if the race would have to be postponed, but then the fog began to lift a little bit. Partially to test the conditions, and I would suspect partially to give the long suffering fans something to see and to give them some hope, several cars were sent out, one by one, to do a lap or two of the track to see if they could race. Opinions were mixed; I cannot state who said what but one driver said 'let's go!' while another said, 'bloody hell, I couldn't see a blasted thing!' Fortunately for all of us behind the fences, visibility did increase sufficiently that the race did finally get started. In fact, in the last few laps the sun broke through.

So cheer up; your memory really is not failing that much!
Tom

#37 T54

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 01:45

Adam Potocki won the F3 race at Rouen in I believe 1969 in a MATRA MS5-Cosworth-Lucas. After that I don't know.

Thanks, T54. Lovely little cars - although as I've never had the chance to see one in the metal, I'd love to see some "up close and personal" pictures.


In 1968, I designed a very precise 1/24 scale model of this car as an F2 for the Heller kit manufacturer. If you can ever find one of those kits (also issued in the USA by AMT as a double kit with a Brabham BT15), the tub is built just like the real thing, with incredible precision even by today's standards. I still have some of the prints for that thing!
Here is an old pic of a MUCH younger Yours Truly at the wheel of Joe Schlesser's F2 car, taken during tests at Monthlery:

Posted Image

Give me that hair back! :
Regards,

T54 :)

#38 vashlin

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 14:13

Originally posted by RA Historian
You are partially right. The 1971 race was delayed, but as stated, due to a fatality in a FF preliminary. It was wet and foggy, but that did not delay the start.

What is ringing a bell in you mind is the 1972 race which was very, very foggy. Nothing much happened for a good portion of the day as the circuit was fogged in solid. As the afternoon wore on, it began to appear as if the race would have to be postponed, but then the fog began to lift a little bit. Partially to test the conditions, and I would suspect partially to give the long suffering fans something to see and to give them some hope, several cars were sent out, one by one, to do a lap or two of the track to see if they could race. Opinions were mixed; I cannot state who said what but one driver said 'let's go!' while another said, 'bloody hell, I couldn't see a blasted thing!' Fortunately for all of us behind the fences, visibility did increase sufficiently that the race did finally get started. In fact, in the last few laps the sun broke through.

So cheer up; your memory really is not failing that much!
Tom


Yes, you are right. Thanks for clearing it up. After so many years one race tends to get confused with another. Weather at Mosport was quite often a factor in any case. I need to go back to my Autocourse collection and do some reading.

Whenever I hear Matra, though, I think of that day at Mosport.

#39 rbm

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 12:53

I thought Len Selby was listing a MS9 (or most of it) fairly recently pictures