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Antares Indycar


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#1 pete3664

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 00:06

I'm copying this from a friend who saw the thread on the F1 to Indycar Constuctors Thread: ANTARES-I've enjoyed reading the posts on the Antares Manta. I've done a significant amountof research on these cars and what follows is a compilation from many involved with the cars. I actually own the #14 car that Roger McCluskey drove in the 1072 Indy 500 for Lindsay Hopkins, and the #42 car that Swede Savage tried to qualify that year shortly. History: The car was designed in late 71, early 72 for Pat Patrick and Lindsay Hopkins. It had a number of innovative features, some of which have been mentioned in previous posts(first F1/Indy car designed on a computer, first car fully instrumented/telemetry, first car to use composite/NASA materials, one of the first to utilize rudimentary forms of ground effects). The car featured a unique underwing at the rear of the car with a variety of vortex generators.....it worked....but created way to much drag and was abandoned....the car also featured unique water-oil coolers instead of the traditional air-oilcoolers. The original design featured a very unique rear suspension design that maintained constant camber through full wheel travel. McCluskey tried it but didn't like the way it felt and the team went back to the original design. Enough components were fabricated to build 5 cars. Of that only three were built in 1972. One for Roger McCluskey, one for his teammate Wally Dallenbach(Gilmore #10) and one for Patricks driver, Swede Savage. Limited pre-Indy testing took place with only one test at Ontario speedway. The chief mechanic for Roger M was Don Koda. After initial tests the front nose was redesigned. Lots of trouble with handling and overheating with the car ....McCluskey eventually got the car qualified and moved up into the top 5 with it before burning a valve and dropping out of the race. Dallenbach and Savage's cars got to Indy late and had limited development time and neither were able to put those cars in the show. With very public failure at Indy development stopped and the project was abandoned.----------I've got more on the cars and where they are now but am afraid I'll lose all this if I keep copying....MORE TO COME

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#2 szautke

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 01:53

Excellent post, since I have now annointed you thee "Antares Man" I have a couple of questions.
First, which of the three did Rasmussen drive in '79, and which one did Olmstead use to mount the Voelker V-12? Thanks again for the great post.

#3 pete3664

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 04:02

The #14 car stayed with Hopkins but was eventually sold to one of his crewmembers/fabricators. It stayed relatively intact but ended up on the west coast ---never raced again. Legendary car builder/owner Rolla Vollstedt actually visually restored the car in the 90's for a private museum. The two other cars( and the parts for the unfinished cars) eventually ended up with regional hotrodders/racers in Illinois. The bodywork/nose were redesigned and one or the other car s were used sporadically during the mid 70s. Initially it was run by a team of Gary Miller/Keith Schuck with Ed Finley driving---- and later by a team owned by Ken Mahoney and Doug Beiderstedt. Both a normally aspirated Chevy and a turbo Offy were used in events during the 70's ( a V12 was fitted in one in 1977 but apparently never hit the track.) In 1979 Mahoney/Beiderstedt w/driver Frank Weiss attempted to run it at Indy, Eldon Rasmussen was approached by the team to get the old Antares ready. He completely redesigned the rear suspension on what was the #10 Dallenbach car and turned it over to the team. The team had difficulty getting it up to speed. At the same time Eldon R was struggling with the reduced boost USAC put on his Foyt/Ford 4 cam engine. Rasmussen eventually moved to the Antares and was able to get the handling dialed in really well. He has said it stuck like glue and ran really well. He eventually had engine problems and fell out. The car was back in 1980 and 81 for drivers like Rich Vogler and Bob Harkey but didn't qualify again. That car is now in a private collection, restored to 81 livery , in the midwest. ( I do have specific event history for the cars if anyone wants or needs it) Hope this fill in some of the blanks. If any one has any additional background, history, info on these I'd very much like to find out about it . I hope to have the #14 car restored to running condition in the near future for vintage exhibition events. many of the concepts gates/Pocobello had were on the right track but just not fully developed...................... as I said I posted this for a friend before he could get signed on to the site ----If you want further info pls let me know, I'll forward the request. thanks

#4 rateus

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 01:16

So would it be correct to say that the Mahoney/Beiderstedt Antares 'became' the Manta when Rasmussen reworked its suspension? Or was this name already used by the team for the chassis from when they first acquired it?

#5 pete3664

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 04:04

In Answers to questions: The name Manta appears on the original design drawings Mike has. It also show in some of the box scores he's seenas just manta later, but it was called the Antares Manta project from early on . The #10 Dallenbach car became the car that Rasmussen qualified and that Vogler and Harkey ran. He always thought the #42 Svage car was the one with the V12 fitted, but just found photos of the car with a 22 degree Turbo Offy in 1977, so it must have been the #10 car that had the V12 fitted by Bob Olmstead. Subsequent to the original postings he's found out some additional items on the car. When gary Miller and partners tried to qualify in 1977, if they had made it , Gary would have been the youngest chief mechanic in Indy history at the time. Additionally, he actually built a 4th chassis from some of the original spare components. Apparently it was never run and was partially disassembled in the late 70's or early 80's. Thats it on Antares, and hopefully Mike will be able to get on if there are further questions

#6 gbl

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 20:29

The 1972 trackside report for May 14 lists Johnny Rutherford qualifying in a #18 Antares, that would be an error then.
You imply that there were no chassis numbers, so we would be free the order them

1972:

Chassis 1 McCluskey
Chassis 2 Dallenbach
Chassis 3 Savage

1975-76:

Chassis ??? #79 Chevy


1977:

Chassis 2 #89 V12
Chassis 3 #70 159 Offy

1978:

Chassis 2 #70 Drake Offy or Chassis 3 if still 159 Offy (I haven't seen a photo)

1979-1981:

Chassis 2 Drake Offy


or do you have built dates of the cars?

#7 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 23:12

The Daily Reports would show the date each turned up at the Speedway. That might help give an order to them.

Or call them 'M', 'D' and 'S'.

Allen

#8 tcracer77

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 02:31

Finally, repaired the computer problems. Thanks to Pete for posting for me.

As I understand it, Johnny Rutherford had a Brabham that was modified by Antares Engineering...it too had a unique nose but didn't look like the other Antares cars. The Indy 500 Website under history/photo gallaries has two pictures of it in 1972. There is also a picture of the modified #42 Eagle/offy Swede Savage eventually qualified (instead of the #42 Antares)...it too looks like it has a similar nose/front wing modification as the #18 Brabham.

I have not seen any indication of chassis numbers on the two cars I have/seen.

I will try to get some clarification on which car ended up in which races--so far this is what it appears happened:

#14 McCluskey never raced again.

#10 Dallenbach: had the Chevy fitted and ran in 5 races in 1976 for Beiderstedt/Mahoney as car #79 with Ed Finley. This also may have been the car that had the V12 fitted by Bob Olmsted and was entered in the 500. This car as #50 also ran in 1978 at Milwaukee and Phoenix. It was the car that was then modified by Eldon Rasmussen and qualified at the 500 as car #50 in 1979. It was then run by Vogler in 80 and Harkey in 81 at the speedway as #87.

#42 Savage: appears that car became the #70 car with 22 degree turbo offy power that entered in the 500. A turbo offy Antares was entered in two other races in 1977 but I do not know which chassis it was could have been either.

There was a 4th chassis constructed out of the original parts for the two unfinished Antares, by Gary Miller, Crew Chief of the Biederstedt/Mahoney team and may alter the above a bit. Plus the nose/cowling on the modified antares appear to be interchangeable so car numbers are a bit tough to use for tracking chassis history on these.

Thanks for the questions and I would appreciate updates or any other history anybody might have on these.

Michael M.

#9 antonvrs

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 07:15

Mention is made in this thread of the "Voelker V12" Where can I find out more about this mysterious item?
Anton

#10 rateus

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 13:02

Some more info re. the Voelker in the 'First cars' thread, post 31 (sorry, don't know how to do quotes :blush: )

And thanks to pete3664 for his response to my original question :up:

#11 brickyard

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 19:58

Hi all,

I think this might be useful... :cool:

Regards

#12 pete3664

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 22:38

re Voelker V12, googled it and found an anecdote from Roy Gardner about the engine being installed in a 72 Eagle and how it appeared to be an aircraft engine from the late 30's, but pretty advanced for its time. There may be more but thats a quick look into the fabrication abilities of Bob Olmstead. Perhaps some correspondance with Roy might shed futher light on the engine.

#13 Gregg

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 17:42

I was there at Indy in 1979 when all involved were having a bad day. First Eldon Rasmussen crashed his RasCar in practice then Frank Weiss ran out of time to complete his rookie test. It was a few days before the final weekend of qualifying and Rasmussen crashed his car hard enough to knock the RasCar out of any chance to qualify the final weekend. I was mildly surprised when Eldon got the Manta up to speed in a relatively shoort period of time then made the race.

#14 Gregg

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 17:45

Didn't Bob Olmstead also house an old 1930s vintage Mercury Zephyr engine in the 1972 Eagle or was that the same as the Voelker V-12?

#15 pete3664

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 16:41

According to Roy Gardner, Bob Olmstead was a restorer of Lincoln Zephyr V12s and the Voelker was a 1937 SOHC aircraft engine. The lincoln Zephyr was a flathead iron block V12 and I don't think anyone would have been able to fit it in a rearengine race car. There is a foggy picture of it in the 72 Eagle on Roy Gardners website.

#16 tcracer77

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 01:47

..the V12 engine that was placed in one of the Antares cars in 1977 has a bit of history to it.

Here is a quote from the Thursday, May 19, 1977 (page 37-38) report in the Carl Hungness Indy 500 yearbook:

"Another car belatedly making an appearance in Gasoline Alley was the Bob Olmsted-B.M. Shamrock 12 Pack Special (whew!). The engine was built by Detroit's Charlie Volker and first appeared at the Speedway in 1937!!! It was housed originally in Ralph DePalma's old two-man chassis owned by Louis Kimmell and its driver was none other than Henry Banks. The car failed to qualify in 1937 but Henry drove it to 21st the following year. In 1939, '40 and '41 it failed to qualify with Tommy Hinnershitz, Tony Bettenhausen, Louis Webb and Ira Hall variously at the wheel. It was no more competitive this year and never was totally put together. Its Antares chassis seemed only half finished ( or half rebuilt to be exact) and most of the tub and engine rested on a an old mattress thoughtully placed on the garage floor...The Volker (spelled incorrectly, "Voelker" on the engine castings, a mistake which irritated Charlie Volker for years) carries No. 89 while the Offy '(Antares)' was No. 70..."

The note goes on to say that famed Indy 500 publisher Carl Hungness actually helped fabricate two of the Antares cars during his days when he was "free-lancing".

#17 Thors45

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 12:59

Mention is made in this thread of the "Voelker V12" Where can I find out more about this mysterious item?
Anton


It was a hand-built v-12 built by a guy named Charles(?) Volker in the 1930's. Bob Olmstead caught wind of it in late '75 and drove up to Volker's house in the Detroit area and bought it - for $500! It had been stored in a crate in his basement (under a sewer pipe) for decades. He dragged back to LaSalle Illinois with the idea of getting it running again. I know he had it fitted into a race car frame at one time. I remember Olmstead quoting Volker by saying that it was built with off-the-shelf parts and that the pistons were set up like an aircraft piston, one main and the other one attached the first.

#18 hlfuzzball

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 16:23

Bill Smith has a Voelker V12 on display in his museum:

Note: Name is misspelled as VELKER

http://www.museumofa...ages/E040.shtml

Museum of American Speed
Engine E040 - in order Numerically
Previous Engine Next Engine
Block Manufacturer : Velker
Block Material : Aluminum
Cylinders : V-12
Cubic Inches :
Bore :
Stroke :
Year : 1937 Head Manufacturer : Velker
Head Material : Aluminum
Cam : DOHC

Cam Drive : Gear Driven
Carbs : Fuel Injection
Era : 30s or 40s
Description :
This one of a kind 12 cylinder engine was built in Detroit, Michigan for the 1937 Indy 500. Tommy Hinnershitz drove the Velker but failed to qualify due to a valve train failure. In 1938 Sam Hanks qualified the Velker for the first and only time at Indy. The engine was updated for Indy in the 80's but threw a rod in practice. Built in 1937 for dirt track racing, driven in 1953 by Sam Hanks at Indy in car #57, and updated for Indy again in the 80’s. The only V-12 Velker ever built. Originally had three 2-barrel carburetors. Featured in Hot Rod Magazine. Tommy Hinnerschitz took his rookie test in it, and ended after 3 laps with valve troubles. Brought to Indy for over 20 years. Ran normally aspirated with carbs and fuel injection, and turbo charged with fuel injection.

Regards,

Tom

#19 philippe charuest

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 16:06

i notice that people had the good taste :) to not put any pictures of the Antares wich is the ugliest thind who ever wheeled at indy

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#20 pete3664

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 22:31

i notice that people had the good taste :) to not put any pictures of the Antares wich is the ugliest thind who ever wheeled at indy

I thought the quote above was in poor taste, if even in jest. The Antares was the beginning of computer designed race cars even though without development they didn't work the way they were supposed to.

#21 RA Historian

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 00:06

I thought the quote above was in poor taste, if even in jest. The Antares was the beginning of computer designed race cars even though without development they didn't work the way they were supposed to.

Come on, Pete, lighten up a bit. Philippe certainly was not suggesting that we take the designer of the Antares outside and shoot him; in fact, I am sure that he had a bit of his tongue in his cheek when he posted that. Computer designed or not, I think that it is fairly well agreed that the Antares was NOT a good looking car by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think that anyone would confuse it with, say, the Chaparral 2-K when it comes to looks. M. Chareust was merely pointing out that in the looks department the Antares was whomped with the ugly stick.
Tom

#22 highbanks

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 21:23

Come on, Pete, lighten up a bit. Philippe certainly was not suggesting that we take the designer of the Antares outside and shoot him; in fact, I am sure that he had a bit of his tongue in his cheek when he posted that. Computer designed or not, I think that it is fairly well agreed that the Antares was NOT a good looking car by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think that anyone would confuse it with, say, the Chaparral 2-K when it comes to looks. M. Chareust was merely pointing out that in the looks department the Antares was whomped with the ugly stick.
Tom

that was my dads indy car from 1977 until he sold to some guy in mich for $15,000.00 my dad is still alive and in a nursing home i can tell u any history u want from that time thanks jim mahoney still have some parts in my house from that car

#23 highbanks

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 21:25

that was my dads indy car from 1977 until he sold to some guy in mich for $15,000.00 my dad is still alive and in a nursing home i can tell u any history u want from that time thanks jim mahoney still have some parts in my house from that car

e mail addr mahonfamly@aol.com

#24 tcracer77

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 00:13

Come on, Pete, lighten up a bit. Philippe certainly was not suggesting that we take the designer of the Antares outside and shoot him; in fact, I am sure that he had a bit of his tongue in his cheek when he posted that. Computer designed or not, I think that it is fairly well agreed that the Antares was NOT a good looking car by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think that anyone would confuse it with, say, the Chaparral 2-K when it comes to looks. M. Chareust was merely pointing out that in the looks department the Antares was whomped with the ugly stick.
Tom



The ugliness was somewhat a result of last minute changes after Roger McCluskey's first test at Ontario in early March or April of 72. They made several changes to the first nose and top cowling after that test...then at the Speedway in May they made a number of other modifications apparently to increase airflow to get the engine temps down. All that contributed to the less than beautiful look. I've got the original artist's conceptual painting of the car (presented in the Patrick yellow of the time -- looking like Rutherford's #18)...The original designs were without wings and the car had a much more pleasing look.

I am still very interested in finding out who revised the nose/cowling and airflow ducting following the 72 race...Patrick's team? the folks at Antares before that shop closed up? If anyone has any background please post or email me mckinn77@charter.net

#25 canon1753

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 00:46

Are there any pictures of the car without wings or with the downforce generating system on it? The boat nose (imho) is the forebearer of the current Dallara's nose...

#26 highbanks

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:15

Are there any pictures of the car without wings or with the downforce generating system on it? The boat nose (imho) is the forebearer of the current Dallara's nose...

the car with rich vogler driving had the 2nd fastest time in 1980 in the back straigtaway of the non qualified cars and in 1979 with eldon be hind the wheel he qualified 32 nd and 33rd quick was roger mcluskey sorry for the spelling jim mahoney 815 488 4165 before 9.00 central

#27 tcracer77

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:53

Are there any pictures of the car without wings or with the downforce generating system on it? The boat nose (imho) is the forebearer of the current Dallara's nose...



No good pics with the car w/o the wings...I think technology had advanced enough from the initial conceptual design to the time that the first car was produced they new they need to adapt...looks like they had to extend the front nose forward to add front wings and then added a larger rear wing...I don't have any pics of the ground effects system...the construction pictures and original engineering drawings I have show a small rear under wing was used in conjunction with the main rear wing...under the engine area was a panel that had a number of vortex generators...