Jump to content


Photo

A new old car


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 Rob Miller

Rob Miller
  • Member

  • 197 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 06 January 2007 - 00:18

If, purely for my own amusement, I were to build a 1959 Maserati 250F V12 or 300S V12 using all new parts but 1959 technology, what would be any criticisms against this or similar projects?

And speaking of Maseratis, anyone for SpaItalia June 2/3?

Advertisement

#2 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,944 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 06 January 2007 - 00:40

Plenty, but none from me...

I think it would be a very long and costly project, however.

#3 dbw

dbw
  • Member

  • 993 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 06 January 2007 - 00:48

won't our friends at C&G do that for you??

or a bugatti royal or a auto union or...

#4 David Birchall

David Birchall
  • Member

  • 3,004 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 06 January 2007 - 02:15

You might want to give some consideration to what you would do with such a device once finished!
I have a friend who took a Maserati Sebring (I think) and rebodied it to somewhat resemble a 450S. It wasn't going to fool anyone but it had road registration and he used it for tours and rallies. Since he made his own aluminium body it was not especially expensive but it would have been if he didn't have that skill!

#5 Mistron

Mistron
  • Member

  • 852 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:00

Originally posted by David Birchall
Since he made his own aluminium body it was not especially expensive but it would have been if he didn't have that skill!


Don't suppose he fancies making one for my car! I've spent Christmas working on the body buck but need to find an alloy body builder who I don't need a mortgage for............. rarer than an open day at the Ecclestone collection!

Rob, If you are doing it for your own amusement, I don't think it should matter what anyone else says........ Old cars are meant to give us pleasure

go for it!

#6 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,173 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:20

I thought that happened all the time anyway! Lancia D50, loads of Bugatti T35s etc :eek:

#7 RTH

RTH
  • Member

  • 5,733 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:26

Originally posted by Mistron


Don't suppose he fancies making one for my car! I've spent Christmas working on the body buck but need to find an alloy body builder who I don't need a mortgage for.............

go for it!


Do tell us more, what is it ? photos ? Do know what you mean I was qoted £3000 for an F Junior nose cone about 18 " long and that was 10 years ago.
Is GRP an option ? ... moulds from the bucks , then you can replace panels inexpensively in service ?

#8 rudi

rudi
  • Member

  • 209 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:27

The most difficult part in such a project is to use the 1959 technology ! Good luck!

#9 Peter Morley

Peter Morley
  • Member

  • 1,900 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 January 2007 - 12:25

Originally posted by Rob Miller
If, purely for my own amusement, I were to build a 1959 Maserati 250F V12 or 300S V12 using all new parts but 1959 technology, what would be any criticisms against this or similar projects?


Apart from the aluminium body, apparently there are a lot of forgings in these cars and they cost a fortune.
Rob Fowler told me many years ago that a set of parts for a 250F (6 cylinder) cost around quarter of a million and you could spend the same again piecing them all together - that was based on the last Cameron Millar car which they made.
Worth talking to Hall & Hall if you were serious.

Or you could talk to Bob Egginton of ASD at Leeds Castle in Kent, who built a fibreglass bodied replica years ago that was far more cost effective, but not a perfect copy.

#10 David M. Kane

David M. Kane
  • Member

  • 5,399 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 06 January 2007 - 13:52

There was a guy racing a Lister with a Maserati motor at Road Atlanta. He and 5 other guys had six new motors made from scratch in England. As previously stated, you're talking BIG $$$.

#11 chuckbrandt

chuckbrandt
  • Member

  • 396 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 06 January 2007 - 15:26

Originally posted by Rob Miller
If, purely for my own amusement, I were to build a 1959 Maserati 250F V12 or 300S V12 using all new parts but 1959 technology, what would be any criticisms against this or similar projects?


I share your dream, although maybe my choice of cars is different. I'm thinking in terms of a shelby king cobra or a mckee mk 4. In my case the engine is relatively cheap, suspension uprights are available, wheels are available, etc. Transaxle is my big issue but I have a couple of plans for that. The rest is steel tubing and sheets of aluminum. I plan to learn panel beating as part of the process. I'm almost more excited about the crafting of it than driving it.

I think the whole thing comes down to not representing it as an original. And that might be fairly easy while you are still telling the story but what about the second or third owner. I think the owners of the scarab that was built in '83 for Lance's brother do a fairly good job of telling the story, although Augie grumbles about racing against it with it's modern brakes etc. Not sure if vintage racing was your goal or not.

You should definitely think about the global manufacturing environment for your specialty parts. They might be cheaper than you think. Friends of mine are building a line of scarab replicas and they got the most stunning aluminum bodies made in poland by former MiG fighter builders. It's just incredible, nice sanded finish, beautiful wire wrapped edges on the panels.

http://www.scarab-motorsports.com/

Chuck

Posted Image

#12 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,682 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 06 January 2007 - 15:59

That craftsmanship looks superb, Chuck. Would they build me a MiG replica????

#13 Mistron

Mistron
  • Member

  • 852 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 06 January 2007 - 18:27

Ah, the Polish Mig people. I've been trying to find out how to contact them, I understand Kirkham motorsports Cobras have them on a fairly exclusive deal.

I'd be interested to get an idea of costs to do the body for my car, but can't seem to get hold of them.

I was going to do body in GRP, but have come round to the idea of alloy for originality, if not the cost!so am very interested to see the quality available.

I'm currently part way through drawing full size sections (on the hall wall, the biggest wall in the house!) from which I'll build a plywood buck (like the one of the Cobra SC on another thread).

If only I had the time (and skill) tolearn to use an english wheel

#14 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 06 January 2007 - 22:14

Alan
I have a pal who is working in Moscow, if you give him a couple of bob he could probably get you a real one ;)
John

#15 Rob Miller

Rob Miller
  • Member

  • 197 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 07 January 2007 - 08:25

Surely the V12 250F was from 1957, Rob.


Correct. My idea is to create something new that might have been.

If Maserati had been able to field a team of factory cars in 1959 they would have almost certainly been V12 powered. The chassis would have been similar to Colotti's Tec-Mec but hopefully with the 250F-type suspension that worked so well on Alfieri's Tipo 60 Birdcage. The Fantuzzi bodywork may or may not have had the nostril-nose or the high tail of the Temple Buell Piccolo, but more like his work on the 1959 Ferraris.

#16 petefenelon

petefenelon
  • Member

  • 4,815 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 07 January 2007 - 09:26

Originally posted by Rob Miller
If, purely for my own amusement, I were to build a 1959 Maserati 250F V12 or 300S V12 using all new parts but 1959 technology, what would be any criticisms against this or similar projects?

And speaking of Maseratis, anyone for SpaItalia June 2/3?


You want to build a 'what might have been' car? - sounds fine to me. I'm sure it'll look great and run beautifully. As long as there's no intent to 'pass off' as a real car I can't see any objection - and the chance to see where the works might have gone had they continued racing would be fascinating.

I have no idea where you'd be able to race it, though, as with no FIA papers, no provenance and no genuine bits in it I think you'd have trouble getting entries... but what a fun thing to do!

#17 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 07 January 2007 - 10:21

Originally posted by Rob Miller
If Maserati had been able to field a team of factory cars in 1959 they would have almost certainly been V12 powered

I don't think so. Their 1958 car was a six, mainly because the V12 was not considered a viable proposition for the changed regulations which required commercial fuel to be used. The V12 had shown no superiorty to the six in 1957, and I can't see the factory perservering with the concept.
A more likely alternative engine choice for 1959 might have been a development of the four-cylinder T60/61 sportscar engine

#18 Huw Jadvantich

Huw Jadvantich
  • Member

  • 602 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 07 January 2007 - 10:27

I can speak for this fella, truly brilliant, and not expensive, even when freight etc is taken into consideration.
www.tansleypanels.com

#19 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,025 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 07 January 2007 - 11:41

Originally posted by David McKinney

I don't think so. Their 1958 car was a six, mainly because the V12 was not considered a viable proposition for the changed regulations which required commercial fuel to be used. The V12 had shown no superiorty to the six in 1957, and I can't see the factory perservering with the concept.
A more likely alternative engine choice for 1959 might have been a development of the four-cylinder T60/61 sportscar engine

And of course the shorter races had brought about cars which were significantly smaller than a V12 Maserati could have been.

On the other hand, a single seater Birdcage is a tantalising might-have-been, particularly if it had been painted blue with a white nose band.

Advertisement

#20 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 07 January 2007 - 22:15

David
I suggested to you on another thread a while back, or was it a pm, that if the TecMec had been properly developed then front engined GP cars may have had a year or so of extra life. As the Birdcage gave to Sports cars. Any comment on that from a Maseratisti
John

#21 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 07 January 2007 - 22:29

Sorry Sharman, I don't remember your earlier suggestion
However, I think the Tec-Mec was at least a year too late. Had it appeared in 1958, and been fully developed then, it might possibly have been on a par with that year's other front-engined contenders. But there wouldn't have been enough development in the design to move up the necessary notch to be competitive in 1959. Ferrari were superior on the flat-out circuits that year but not anywhere else, and other front-engine designs (BRM, Aston Martin, Lotus) couldn't keep pace with the Cooper. I very much doubt if a Maserati-based design would have either. It was already too late

#22 Rob Miller

Rob Miller
  • Member

  • 197 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 08 January 2007 - 18:39

1959 could have been a great year, but was full of missed opportunities:

The lightweight Vanwall

A Lotus 16 with a decent gearbox and clutch

A properly developed Aston Martin DBR4

Correct parts in Rob Walker's Colotti gearbox

Factory Maseratis, be they 4, 6 or V12

Decent brakes on the BRM P25

The Scarab a year early

The Tec-Mec ditto

#23 petefenelon

petefenelon
  • Member

  • 4,815 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 08 January 2007 - 21:26

Originally posted by Rob Miller
1959 could have been a great year, but was full of missed opportunities:

The lightweight Vanwall

A Lotus 16 with a decent gearbox and clutch

A properly developed Aston Martin DBR4

Correct parts in Rob Walker's Colotti gearbox

Factory Maseratis, be they 4, 6 or V12

Decent brakes on the BRM P25

The Scarab a year early

The Tec-Mec ditto


Oh this calls for Barry Boor to build up a Fantasy 1959 set of slot cars doesn't it?;)

#24 Sharman

Sharman
  • Member

  • 2,541 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 08 January 2007 - 23:09

Rob
Your summation about corresponds with my feelings which prompted the question to David,
I LIKE front engined cars
John