75 replies to this topic

[Alan Cox]

Donington have the other P83.

I think owned for many years by Mike Burtt, but was being advertised for sale by Hall & Hall last time I noticed. Does anyone know if it has been sold?

[mfd]

I think owned for many years by Mike Burtt, but was being advertised for sale by Hall & Hall last time I noticed. Does anyone know if it has been sold?

Yes after he ran at Goodwood in the BRM celebration - Watch man has it - Richard One Thousand

[coupekarter]

My post 44 - so you've had it confirmed?

This information was displayed with the engine for at least 15 years! Regarding R14, I would repeat what I said earlier, I have my doubts about its origins: to my eyes, when I got down on hands and knees to look closely underneath, it did not look like a lightly used chassis, but more like it had had a hard life. Given Chapmans reported tendency to swap chassis plates to best advantage, I wouldn't be happy until a 33 "expert" has had a look at it!

[Doug Nye]

R14 was presented by ACBC to Leonard Lee of Coventry Climax upon their withdrawal from racing in recognition of the company's services to Team Lotus over so many years. Leonard Lee - or his family - subsequently loaned it to Tom Wheatcroft for the opening and early period of the Donington Collection. Mr Lee's executors subsequently entered the car for sale by auction. Tom Wheatcroft was outbid on it by Alderman Hill of Caister Castle. If I recall correctly Hill's winning bid was £15,000. I was annoyed that Tom did not go higher, but he insisted he was happy with the Lotus 25 he already had...

DCN

[Pullman99]

R14 was presented by ACBC to Leonard Lee of Coventry Climax upon their withdrawal from racing in recognition of the company's services to Team Lotus over so many years. Leonard Lee - or his family - subsequently loaned it to Tom Wheatcroft for the opening and early period of the Donington Collection. Mr Lee's executors subsequently entered the car for sale by auction. Tom Wheatcroft was outbid on it by Alderman Hill of Caister Castle. If I recall correctly Hill's winning bid was £15,000. I was annoyed that Tom did not go higher, but he insisted he was happy with the Lotus 25 he already had... DCN

Thanks for that Doug. I thought that the auction price was somewhat higher than that but, in any event, the cost prevented Coventry Museums from acquiring it and the GWK that was also sold by Mr Lee's executors and which had been on display at The Herbert Art Gallery & Museum for many years previously. Both cars, of course, with Coventry built engines. My own recollection of seeing the car many times at Coventry was that - at that time - it was pretty well immaculate.

[coupekarter]

As I said in post No.13, the auction price was £36k.

[Doug Nye]

As I said in post No.13, the auction price was £36k.

Really? With commission so I guess the hammer price would have been £30,000 - £15,000 more than Wheatie felt was reasonable considering I had shortly before been despatched to Modena to buy the 1970-71 Ferrari 312B F1 car for £10,500. I have that 15K figure specified by Tom fixed in my memory...right or wrong it's there for some reason.

DCN

[mfd]

Really? With commission so I guess the hammer price would have been £30,000 - £15,000 more than Wheatie felt was reasonable considering I had shortly before been despatched to Modena to buy the 1970-71 Ferrari 312B F1 car for £10,500. I have that 15K figure specified by Tom fixed in my memory...right or wrong it's there for some reason.

DCN

Tom once told me the Ferrari was the most expensive F1 car he'd bought (at the time)

[arttidesco]

As I said in post No.13, the auction price was £36k.

Just beggars belief that some one would spend 36k on a car in 197? and then let it rot to the state that is seen in Macca's pics

[Doug Nye]

I believe that, not for the first time, I've been talking total rubbish re price in this thread. I shouldn't post late at night wotjout doible checking. I believe Leonard Lee didn't die until 1980 and unless this part of my failing memory is also cobblers the car was sold after his death? Which would mean the passage of seven or eight years since we acquired the 312B from Modena. During that period inflation had accelerated sharply and the 312B price would have certainly have become irrrelevant for any worthwhile comparison with R14's at auction.

DCN

[arttidesco]

I shouldn't post late at night wotjout doible checking.

DCN

Early to bed early to rise

[coupekarter]

I got the £36k figure from either Motor or Autosport. When the press report auction prices, I think it's normally just the hammer price. From the picture shown, R14 has been moved within the Caister museum from it's previous position in the entrance lobby where it sat for many years. I noticed about 6 years ago that the gear knob had gone missing, but the bent rear radius rod visible in the picture was always like that at Caister.

[Pullman99]

... I believe Leonard Lee didn't die until 1980 and unless this part of my failing memory is also cobblers the car was sold after his death? DCN

Thanks, as always, for your comments on this thread. Anyway, isn't rubbish the basis for history? Or am I thinking of archaeology? Or, possibly, car park excavation!

Back OT. I am not sure whether the move to Donington of R14 was instigated by Mr Wheatcroft or whether it was a preferred venue by Mr Lee but I do know that Coventry had hoped to retain the 33 on show in the City that provided Lotus with its World Championship winning engines. The sale by Mr Lee's executors did cause some anxiety as it involved not only some acrimony over having "lost" the display of the 33 to Donington but also over the GWK (Coventry Simplex engine) that was claimed as belonging to the Lee family and was also included in the same sale. Coventry Museums could not afford to bid for either and there was certainly not the same grant availability or National Lottery funding that exists today that could have assisted. In any event, it would appear that there are conservation issues associated with R14 and one hopes that continued interest on this Forum may result in appropriate measures being taken by its present custodians.

My personal view - and I am aware that others have questioned R14's "originality" - is that it is an important car in its own right as well as in the transformation of F1 after 1965 and could be more correctly displayed - in context - elsewhere.

Edited by Pullman99, 29 September 2020 - 10:29.

[Doug Nye]

Early to bed early to rise

The real trouble is using an iPad. With fingers the size and c,umsiness of mine a touch screen is a puggan kiab,ity.

DFCB

[bartchops]

I have always believed this to be the Lotus in the museum,scanned from Motor Sport of the day.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[bartchops]

Should have said,1966 Dutch Grand Prix.

[Doug Nye]

That's the lady...

DCN

[275 GTB-4]

Only other car museum I have heard of where photography is discouraged is the Collier museum in Florida, said to be for security reasons IIRC.

I'm not into conspiracy theories, but, the Jim Clark room in Duns has the same policy.

[Wirra]

... the Jim Clark room in Duns has the same policy.

They didn't in '81.

[275 GTB-4]

Nice Plus Fours

[John Saunders]

I finally visited Caister Castle Museum, a wet morning & a 10 year old grandson to amuse was all it took. Caister Castle is just 6 minutes drive from my home. But bad reviews have put me off in the past.

 

 

You CAN now take photographs, I was told this changed about 2 years ago, (yes I had left my camera at home). The staff are friendly and helpful.

 

There are about 200 cars and a large number of motorcycles on show. The museum is much bigger than I imagined it to be, and there are plans to expand it next year.

 

The only racing cars are the Lotus and BRM plus the spare H16 BRM engine, all look just as shown on here.

 

Only about 2 of the road car in the museum are runners, which I find very sad.

 

The museums policy is, ''They are here they are not going an where so they don't nead to run'' a shame. I think all the vehicles are held in trust & can never be sold.

[Rob Miller]

R14 is fifty years old, and in another fifty years our grandchildren will possibly make a pilgrimage to Caister to see a genuine Jim Clark Lotus that is not totally over-restored or racing with a full roll cage.

As an aside, if you were to take charge of caring for the R14, what could you do to it that would not harm its originality?

[Derwent Motorsport]

I visited the museum on Friday (the last day of their season) to see the Lotus.  The museum is really a time warp in every sense. It's the same lay out as Donnington , like a crankshaft to so easy to walk round.  It was a very wet day so I expe4cted more people there but I think there were about 10 in all. Almost as many staff.   No guide book, little information on the cars, most in poor condition, not order of displays or groups etc. Some wonderful cars but a lot of unexceptional one. Quite a number donated by their owners/owners widows. A Ford Scorpio Estate must be a rare thing but at 2008 Honda S2000?  

The Lotus and BRM are still untouched and going down hill. If I knew how to post photos I would.  There is a nice Cooper 500 which would appear to have recent use. 

I do wonder why the museum trustees have not gradually improved and updated the place. As it's on a tourist/seaside area it must be good for a wet day attraction but needs brought up to date.  I like in the Lakes and we have the Lakeland Motor Museum which does well from the general tourist market. It does not have any "must see" cars but makes it all very interesting for the general public. 

If Caister sold the Lotus and BRM they would have the money to update the museum.

Dr Hill came from Leicester so I wonder why the museum is in Norfolk, did he buy the castle? he must have been quite well off.  I wonder who the trustees are?

[Tim Murray]

If I knew how to post photos I would.

Graeme, the photos need to be uploaded to a website, yours if you have one or one of the image-hosting sites - Postimage is very straightforward to use. Alternatively I’d be happy to post them for you. If interested, let me know and I’ll PM you an email address. In the meantime, here’s your photo of the very sad-looking Lotus you posted recently on Facebook:


Photo copyright: Graeme Forrester

[JtP2]

R14 is fifty years old, and in another fifty years our grandchildren will possibly make a pilgrimage to Caister to see a genuine Jim Clark Lotus that is not totally over-restored or racing with a full roll cage.

As an aside, if you were to take charge of caring for the R14, what could you do to it that would not harm its originality?

 

 

Bit suspicious of the originality. Didn't really think Chapman assemblage comment was valid until looking at the very corroded wheels. No knock off wheel nuts as fitted from Spa 65 and more likely to be used from 66 onwards with Goodyear/ Dunlop/. Firestone tyre wars.

 

So just went searching for photos and by the Dutch GP 66 Lotus has returned to 6 bolt fixings for the wheels. So going totally of topic, when and why did Lotus change back to 6 bolt fixings on 25/33s?

Edited by JtP2, 28 September 2020 - 11:45.

[Pullman99]

Interesting to see this thread resurrected after some while.   Also that the experience of Derwent Motorsport seems to echo those of visitors from a decade before although I was impressed that the museum has been able to open during the present situation so well done to them for doing so.

 

Found this postcard image that was taken for the Herbert Art Gallery & Museum (predecessor of today's Coventry Transport Museum) that shows R14 as loaned to them from Coventry Climax / Leonard Lee having been presented to them by Colin Chapman.    I think that the Coventry museum may still sell this item!

 

Edited by Pullman99, 29 September 2020 - 20:48.