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Formula One championship regulations & race entries


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#1 lofong

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 02:49

Prompted by an earlier post by TW about Bruce's 1958 F-2 class win, I need help from you knowledgeable TNF-ers to clear my long-standing confusion, ignorance and no doubt a certain amount of memory loss on these related issues.

First, I have tried searching but I have failed to come up with any existing thread, or external site, that provides details of all the different F-1 regulations that have been in force over the years. Any suggestions?

Next, as far as the championship goes, these days the F-1 and championship rules appear to be intertwined (and have officially been so since 1981 I believe) and are published on the FIA's website. Prior to that the FIA's little yellow book was the official published source. But when did the last annual Yellow Book get published and was there a different publication prior to whenever the FIA site was implemented?

And how were F1/Championship regulations communciated prior to the first Yellow Book (which I believe was in the late 60s)?

In the earliest days of the championship, it seemed to consist of a series of nominated races. This explains the inclusion of the Indy 500 and the F-2 races of the 1952 and 1953 seasons. By some point in the 1970s (and through to the present day), the Championship became purely a series of races run solely to F-1 regulations. In between we had years where the championship itself was open to cars of other specific classes such as F-2, F-5000, Formula Atlantic, etc., although no such entries ever started races. To add further confusion we have had races where separate classes have been run with competitors not eligible for championship points. And of course before some point in the 1970s, individual race organisers could determine what entries they would accept for their races.

So can anyone provide broad details of the evolution of the championship and its regulations/definition and the timeline associated with each of the changes?

Ignoring the Indy 500 races and the F-2 years of 1952 and 1953, is it correct to say that all the remaining races have been held to F-1 regulations?

But how closely have all the entries in those races conformed to F-1 regulations? For example, was Rodger Ward's entry of a midget in the USGP of 1959 a legal F-1 car for that race?

I believe the F-2 class at the 1966, 1967 and 1969 German GPs were considered as a separate race running concurrently with the GP and not part of the main race and its results. But has this happened on any earlier occasions?

In other races, e.g. Morocco and Germany in 1958 (which others?), the F-2 class has been run as a separate class, part of the overall race classification but with runners not eligible for championship points. But have F-2 cars ever run in races, unmodified, as valid F-1 entries, making them eligible for points? Have other classes or one-off entries been received for races that have been part of the overall race, yet ineligible for points? Conversely, have cars that haven't conformed to F-1 regs competed and been eligible for points? Are there any, or were such exceptions a common occurrence in those early years?

The problem here is a combination of ignorance of the exact F-1 regulations in force at the time, compounded by ignorance over whether a particular car from a different category was modified to conform to F-1 regs for that race. As an example, was John Taylor's entry of a Cooper in the 1964 British GP a legal Formula 1 car when it participated?

I suspect this is topic is a source of confusion for many of the novice irregulars here. Could the experts please provide some enlightenment, with examples where applicable.

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#2 Kvadrat

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 06:38

You ask pretty good questions. I think that was impossible just a couple of years ago when everybody was sure that there was Formula One series in 1950.

Here's how I see the problem.

There was something called Grand Prix racing. It wasn't series, it wasn't regulations. It was like a feeling. Everybody knew that Grand Prix racing is motor racing for best cars with best drivers. No one elected drivers and races for Grand Prix racing.

There weren't solid regulations for Grand Prix racing. Any organizer could announce that he wants to run Grand Prix. To be called Grand Prix officially race should be permitted by AIACR and included into International Sporting Calendar. Then it wasn't matter which cars can be allowed.

Grand Prix was International long distance race for single driver in a car. It didn't matter for which category and class of cars it was held. 1952 Monaco GP was full distance GP race for sports cars. Many non-European Grands Prix were for free class cars (Formule Libre).

So magical for modern spectator words Formula One weren't so magical back in 1950s. There was something different which was magical - Grand Prix racing. If you raced in a Grand Prix, you were Grand Prix driver (not Formula One driver). If you raced in Pau Grand Prix, you're Grand Prix driver despite it was non-championship race.

So the fifties (and before) were really era of Grand Prix racing, not so called Formula One.

I feel that WDC was just a competition inside world of Grand Prix racing. WDS wasn'r series of races like F1 is today, it was just determination of the best of Grand Prix drivers.

If I ever write book on this theme I will title it The Political Pre-history of Formula One. That means that Formula One was created in 1981 in form of racing series. Grand Prix racing's best years were in the fifties and then it was continuously dying through the sixties and the seventies to be finally killed by Ecclestone and Balestre in FIASCO war.

The Political Pre-history of Formula One should contain all the bricks in the wall between Grand Prix racing and Formula One series. Here are some examples.

- creating championships for Grands Prix drivers and for sports cars;

- first inclusions of non-Grande Epreuves and not established GPs into WDC;

- crating of graded drivers system;

- introducing of the same starting numbers for the whole season.

So the process of transformation of Grand Prix racing into Formula One series was in form of unification and standartisation. At first motor racing was quite complicated (that's why modern F1 followers and even journalists can't undertand it and deal with fictious Formula One series). I think all motor racing history consists of three parts. They are Development of racing classes from 1894 to 1940, Era of racing classes from 1945 to 1980 and Era of racing series from 1981 until now.

I hope it can be good starting point for you in research of this very special theme which is still not covered by writers and journalists.

#3 D-Type

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 23:27

Originally posted by lofong
Prompted by an earlier post by TW about Bruce's 1958 F-2 class win, I need help from you knowledgeable TNF-ers to clear my long-standing confusion, ignorance and no doubt a certain amount of memory loss on these related issues.

1 First, I have tried searching but I have failed to come up with any existing thread, or external site, that provides details of all the different F-1 regulations that have been in force over the years. Any suggestions?

2 Next, as far as the championship goes, these days the F-1 and championship rules appear to be intertwined (and have officially been so since 1981 I believe) and are published on the FIA's website. Prior to that the FIA's little yellow book was the official published source. But when did the last annual Yellow Book get published and was there a different publication prior to whenever the FIA site was implemented?

3 And how were F1/Championship regulations communciated prior to the first Yellow Book (which I believe was in the late 60s)?

4 In the earliest days of the championship, it seemed to consist of a series of nominated races. This explains the inclusion of the Indy 500 and the F-2 races of the 1952 and 1953 seasons. By some point in the 1970s (and through to the present day), the Championship became purely a series of races run solely to F-1 regulations. In between we had years where the championship itself was open to cars of other specific classes such as F-2, F-5000, Formula Atlantic, etc., although no such entries ever started races. To add further confusion we have had races where separate classes have been run with competitors not eligible for championship points. And of course before some point in the 1970s, individual race organisers could determine what entries they would accept for their races.

5 So can anyone provide broad details of the evolution of the championship and its regulations/definition and the timeline associated with each of the changes?

6 Ignoring the Indy 500 races and the F-2 years of 1952 and 1953, is it correct to say that all the remaining races have been held to F-1 regulations?

7 But how closely have all the entries in those races conformed to F-1 regulations? For example, was Rodger Ward's entry of a midget in the USGP of 1959 a legal F-1 car for that race?

8 I believe the F-2 class at the 1966, 1967 and 1969 German GPs were considered as a separate race running concurrently with the GP and not part of the main race and its results. But has this happened on any earlier occasions?

9 In other races, e.g. Morocco and Germany in 1958 (which others?), the F-2 class has been run as a separate class, part of the overall race classification but with runners not eligible for championship points. But have F-2 cars ever run in races, unmodified, as valid F-1 entries, making them eligible for points? Have other classes or one-off entries been received for races that have been part of the overall race, yet ineligible for points? Conversely, have cars that haven't conformed to F-1 regs competed and been eligible for points? Are there any, or were such exceptions a common occurrence in those early years?

10 The problem here is a combination of ignorance of the exact F-1 regulations in force at the time, compounded by ignorance over whether a particular car from a different category was modified to conform to F-1 regs for that race. As an example, was John Taylor's entry of a Cooper in the 1964 British GP a legal Formula 1 car when it participated?

I suspect this is topic is a source of confusion for many of the novice irregulars here. Could the experts please provide some enlightenment, with examples where applicable.

First a question for you. why don't you give your age and location in your profile? it makes it far simpler to know what level to pitch the answer at.

Taking your questions, which I have numbered to make life easier.

(1) Several historical sites give extracts of the regulations. For example FORIX does but it's a subscription site.

Here is a summary , based on Higham's book
1947 to 1953 - 4.5 litres unsupercharged, 1.5 litres supercharged
1952 to 1953 - due to anticipated lack of support for Formula 1, the main European race organisers ran theirgrands prix for Formula 2 cars. This included the main non-championship races as well as championship qualifiers. Formula 2 was for 2 litres unsupercharged, 0.5 litres supercharged
1954 to 1957 - 2.5 litres unsupercharged, 0.75 litres supercharged
1958 to 1960 as 1954-57 but fuel had to be 100 octane aviation fuel
1961 to 1965 1.3 litres minimum, 1.5 litres maximum, minimum weight 450kg
1966 t0 1968 - 3 litre unsupercharged, 1.5 litre supercharged, minimum weight 500kg
1969 to 1971 - maximum engine capacity the same, minimum weight increased to 550kg
1972 - maximum engine capacity the same, minimum weight now 550kg, maximum number of cylinders restricted to 12
1973 to 1982 - maximum engine capacity the same, minimum weight 575kg
1983 to 1985 - maximum engine capacity the same,575kg minimum weight, flat underside
1986 - 1.5 litres supercharged or turbocharged, unsupercharged cars banned, minimum weight 575kg
1987 to 1988 - 1.5 litres supercharged or turbocharged, 3.5 litre unsupercharged
1989 to 1994 - 3.5 litres unsupercharged, supercharged cars banned
1994 - revised aerodynamic and airbox rules post Imola
1995 to 1997 - 3 litres unsupercharged
1998 to 1999 - cars narrowed, grooved tyres
2000 - still 3 litre, but engines restricted to 10 cylinders

Plus progressively more and more restrictions as time went on.

(2) and (3) the actual form in which the rwgulations were published is immaterial. it just so happens that the published rule book had a yellow cover for several years. for example the first (1947) rules were probably published as minutes of a CSI meeting.
What is more significant is that originally each race had its own regulations and there was a gradual evolution to standard rules. For example most organisers required cars to cross the finishing line to be classified, but Monaco classified finishers by how many laps they had completed (iethe current universal rule)

(4) I'm not sure what you are asking. Formula 5000 cars could never compete in a Championship race but some non-championship races were open to both. I have never read of Formula Atlantic cars being eligible - they may have been accepted for non-championship races to swell thegrids.
(5) This would take too long. 1958 saw a fuel restriction, 1961 a minimum weight, rollover bars, a ban on adding oil, and so on.

(6) Yes but some had a F2 class to enlarge the field.

(7) Always complying with the maximum capacity, but some would be smaller, eg Formula 2 HWMs in the 1951 Swiss GP, several 2 litre cars in 1954, the 2 litre Climax engined Lotus and Cooper cars of 1957 to 1959. Jack Brabham's 2 litre cooper-Bristol was entered in the 1955 British GP as a 2.2 litre car because the regulations for that race stipulated a minimum of 2 litres to keep the old ex-Formula 2 cars away. Rodger Ward's Kurtiss midget in the 1959 US GP came within the engine capacity limit and used the correct fuel. There were very few other regulations at that time so it was legal.

(8) I think those were the only races with that particular regulation.

(9) In some early races smaller cars were accepted - Schell's Cooper at Monaco in 1950, the HWMs in Switzerland in 1951, de Beaufort's porsche RS inthe 1958 Dutch Gp are some examples of technically formula 2 cars competing in the main race.
No cars that didn'tconform to the F1 upper capacity limits were ever eligible forpoints (obviously Indianapolis excepted)

(10) Doug Nye's British GP history has John Taylor's Cooper-Ford and Frank Gardner's Brabham-Ford as both having 1500cc engines and therefore eligible. But Steve Small has Taylor as 1000cc and hence below the minimum. I'd go with Doug on that one.

But really these are too many questions for a single thread.

#4 Kvadrat

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 03:51

D-Type, the problem is that all this stuff you refer to did not deal with WDC itself at least in the fifties. WDC and Formula 1 class were different things and not connected. All race results, practice times, DNAs, DNFs, DNS', lap charts - all these belong to races themselves. World Drivers Champioship was just a table of points and nothing more.

The way the championship is described in present time (which Don Capps calls Common Knowledge) is simplier for fans and journalists. It's just a nice global fairy tale and I personally don't have intention of breaking it but as historian I just want to sort things out

If lofong has the same intention of sorting things out he should understand that WDC in 1950 was just a points table and nothing more. Then in 1981 it became commercial racing series which was different type of competition.

What was happening between those dates is what we should find out. It's how points table on paper transformed into Formula One empire.

#5 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 14:31

I have to agree that lofong has asked some very good and interesting questions. "D" and Vladimir has taken some great steps towards trying to both answer and address them -- not necessarily the same thing.

lofong, as long as you are not expecting Instant Karma, be prepared to continue to be a bit puzzled and perplexed as to the case of some of the happenings in the past, especially pre-1981 and pre-1950, since what exists today in formula one simply did not exist many decades ago.

The biggest factor in all this is context. The bare factoids really don't address much more than the statistics and race data, which certainly don't tell much of the story on the track, much less that away from the track. I will try to address a few of your questions.

3 And how were F1/Championship regulations communciated prior to the first Yellow Book (which I believe was in the late 60s)?

The CSI sent out communiques in the form of bulletins or memoranda or other types of correspondence by mail or in some cases would cable that information to the clubs. Then the Yellow Books appeared, but even then there were updates to the regs in the form of bulletins sent out during the season. So, even with the Yellow Books, you have only a part of the story.

4 In the earliest days of the championship, it seemed to consist of a series of nominated races. This explains the inclusion of the Indy 500 and the F-2 races of the 1952 and 1953 seasons. By some point in the 1970s (and through to the present day), the Championship became purely a series of races run solely to F-1 regulations. In between we had years where the championship itself was open to cars of other specific classes such as F-2, F-5000, Formula Atlantic, etc., although no such entries ever started races. To add further confusion we have had races where separate classes have been run with competitors not eligible for championship points. And of course before some point in the 1970s, individual race organisers could determine what entries they would accept for their races.

From 1950 to 1953, the vast majority of the cars that raced at Indianapolis met the criteria for the formula one that was then in being. From 1954 to 1960, this was certainly not the case, but the CSI continued to allow the event to count towards its world championship.

The contest of wills between the F1CA and GPI in 1972 resulted in an addendum being added to the Yellow Book allowing the clubs and organizers great leeway as to what types of cars could contest an event in the CSI world championship. Included were formula two, USAC, Formula 5000, and perhaps even Formula Atlantic, although I can't recall that formula being included in the options off the top of my head.

5 So can anyone provide broad details of the evolution of the championship and its regulations/definition and the timeline associated with each of the changes?

"D" provides a good start, but there is much more detail -- often mind-numbing and trivial in the extreme -- to all this in recent decades. Early years were fairly simply, but there were also whatever regs the organizing club tossed in to highly complicate things for those looking backward and used to the uniformity in the extreme present today.

7 But how closely have all the entries in those races conformed to F-1 regulations? For example, was Rodger Ward's entry of a midget in the USGP of 1959 a legal F-1 car for that race?

It was a formula one car regardless of how odd it may have looked because it met all the applicable regulations governing what a formula one car should be -- not that there all that many at the time.

9 In other races, e.g. Morocco and Germany in 1958 (which others?), the F-2 class has been run as a separate class, part of the overall race classification but with runners not eligible for championship points. But have F-2 cars ever run in races, unmodified, as valid F-1 entries, making them eligible for points? Have other classes or one-off entries been received for races that have been part of the overall race, yet ineligible for points? Conversely, have cars that haven't conformed to F-1 regs competed and been eligible for points? Are there any, or were such exceptions a common occurrence in those early years?

As mentioned, during the 1950s there were occasions when formula two cars ran in the CSI championship events as they were.

10 The problem here is a combination of ignorance of the exact F-1 regulations in force at the time, compounded by ignorance over whether a particular car from a different category was modified to conform to F-1 regs for that race. As an example, was John Taylor's entry of a Cooper in the 1964 British GP a legal Formula 1 car when it participated?

The Ford engine was over 1300cc and the car met the minimum weight requirement and had the other items to make it a pukka formula one car. Also, the same sort of thing happened later when Matra entered their modified formula two car in the CSI championship events in 1967.


Of course, all this could just as easily serve as the springboard for a long discussion of all the behind-the-scenes parts of all this.....but, I will spare everyone.

#6 lofong

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 07:20

Originally posted by D-Type

First a question for you. why don't you give your age and location in your profile? it makes it far simpler to know what level to pitch the answer at.

Taking your questions, which I have numbered to make life easier.

(1) Several historical sites give extracts of the regulations. For example FORIX does but it's a subscription site.

Here is a summary , based on Higham's book
1947 to 1953 - 4.5 litres unsupercharged, 1.5 litres supercharged
1952 to 1953 - due to anticipated lack of support for Formula 1, the main European race organisers ran theirgrands prix for Formula 2 cars. This included the main

non-championship races as well as championship qualifiers. Formula 2 was for 2 litres unsupercharged, 0.5 litres supercharged
1954 to 1957 - 2.5 litres unsupercharged, 0.75 litres supercharged
1958 to 1960 as 1954-57 but fuel had to be 100 octane aviation fuel
1961 to 1965 1.3 litres minimum, 1.5 litres maximum, minimum weight 450kg
1966 t0 1968 - 3 litre unsupercharged, 1.5 litre supercharged, minimum weight 500kg
1969 to 1971 - maximum engine capacity the same, minimum weight increased to 550kg
1972 - maximum engine capacity the same, minimum weight now 550kg, maximum number of cylinders restricted to 12
1973 to 1982 - maximum engine capacity the same, minimum weight 575kg
1983 to 1985 - maximum engine capacity the same,575kg minimum weight, flat underside
1986 - 1.5 litres supercharged or turbocharged, unsupercharged cars banned, minimum weight 575kg
1987 to 1988 - 1.5 litres supercharged or turbocharged, 3.5 litre unsupercharged
1989 to 1994 - 3.5 litres unsupercharged, supercharged cars banned
1994 - revised aerodynamic and airbox rules post Imola
1995 to 1997 - 3 litres unsupercharged
1998 to 1999 - cars narrowed, grooved tyres
2000 - still 3 litre, but engines restricted to 10 cylinders

Plus progressively more and more restrictions as time went on.

(2) and (3) the actual form in which the rwgulations were published is immaterial. it just so happens that the published rule book had a yellow cover for several years. for

example the first (1947) rules were probably published as minutes of a CSI meeting.
What is more significant is that originally each race had its own regulations and there was a gradual evolution to standard rules. For example most organisers required cars to

cross the finishing line to be classified, but Monaco classified finishers by how many laps they had completed (iethe current universal rule)

(4) I'm not sure what you are asking. Formula 5000 cars could never compete in a Championship race but some non-championship races were open to both. I have never read of

Formula Atlantic cars being eligible - they may have been accepted for non-championship races to swell thegrids.
(5) This would take too long. 1958 saw a fuel restriction, 1961 a minimum weight, rollover bars, a ban on adding oil, and so on.

(6) Yes but some had a F2 class to enlarge the field.

(7) Always complying with the maximum capacity, but some would be smaller, eg Formula 2 HWMs in the 1951 Swiss GP, several 2 litre cars in 1954, the 2 litre Climax engined

Lotus and Cooper cars of 1957 to 1959. Jack Brabham's 2 litre cooper-Bristol was entered in the 1955 British GP as a 2.2 litre car because the regulations for that race

stipulated a minimum of 2 litres to keep the old ex-Formula 2 cars away. Rodger Ward's Kurtiss midget in the 1959 US GP came within the engine capacity limit and used the

correct fuel. There were very few other regulations at that time so it was legal.

(8) I think those were the only races with that particular regulation.

(9) In some early races smaller cars were accepted - Schell's Cooper at Monaco in 1950, the HWMs in Switzerland in 1951, de Beaufort's porsche RS inthe 1958 Dutch Gp are

some examples of technically formula 2 cars competing in the main race.
No cars that didn'tconform to the F1 upper capacity limits were ever eligible forpoints (obviously Indianapolis excepted)

(10) Doug Nye's British GP history has John Taylor's Cooper-Ford and Frank Gardner's Brabham-Ford as both having 1500cc engines and therefore eligible. But Steve Small has

Taylor as 1000cc and hence below the minimum. I'd go with Doug on that one.

But really these are too many questions for a single thread.

Thank you all for your thoughtful and detailed responses here. Not sure how much fog has yet been cleared though .......

To answer your question, D Type, I have been attending F-1 races since 1967 but I don't believe my age and current locaton are of much relevance to the issue. The questions I posed here were of a general nature prompted by questions that I have asked myself recently looking over detail of races either from before my time or from my early years as a fan, when such more major issues were either of little relevance to me at the time or not seemingly worthy of retention in my little grey cells. This is why I raised these issues to the resident experts here.

You are right there were a lot of questions here in the end. My original posted started more simply but then seemed to expand into a series of seemingly very related questions. The original one here was really, in championship race terms, when is an F-1 car not an F-1 car? Or alternatively, if it looks like an F-1 car and behaves in championship races like an F-1 car, is it really an F-1 car?

I fully appreciate the early years were totally unstandardized compared with the homogenized world of today, but I was really trying to ascertain whether any general conclusions could be reached, not knowing enough about the specifics related to some of the possible exceptions from early on.

(1) Regarding F-1 regulations, thanks for the detail you supplied. You say various sites have extracts but do any provide all the detail as to who is really the best source available? How complex were the full regs anyway in those early years?

I do use Forix. It has an incredible amount of detail but my biggest criticism of the site is that it is not the easiest or most intuitive to navigate. I have never located the F-1 regulations there and I am sure various other gems must be hidden away there that I have not yet stumbled upon. It is one place to my mind that could really do with a decent site map.

One specific area that confuses me with the regs, and which was one of the triggers for my question, that goes unmentioned by you was over bodywork rules. Did this mean that we have ever had sports cars that participated in any championship F-1 races, perhaps ineligible for points by virtue of their covered wheels?

(2) and (3) I actually had one of the yellow books which I bought new back around 1970, but it was sadly lost a long time back and I no longer recall its full content. But my specific open question on this was what was the last year it was published and did anything replace it?

(4) and (5) The 1972 'addendum' was what I was thinking of here (altho' on reflection I am probably wrong about Atlantic cars being included, yet for some reason it strikes a distant chord only because it seems now a little ridiculous). I couldn't recall whether this was opened up just for one single year or a longer period. But aren't your examples above just the F-1 regulations? When I was asking about the evolution of the championship regulations maybe the answer is not so complicated? But somewhere the championship went from a set of nominated races that until 1960 included Indy, which was clearly not to F-1 regs, to a series of races sometime in the 70s that were all to F-1 regs. Was the 1972 example the only exception?

But when did the series change from a set of races that happened to be to F-1 regs in the early 60s to being a set of, specifically, F-1 races? And weren't there other more specific regs surrounding the championship itself separate from the techincal rules, e.g. race distances?

(7) and (9) I am still a little confused by the answers here. Can I generalize and say that, aside from certain examples of races where F-2 classes have been run with cars not eligible for championship points (e.g. in 1958), all other competitors in championship races (Indy and 1952 and 1953 aside) have conformed to F-1 regulations and been eligible for championship points -- even though in some cases they may be cars from other categories running unmodified from their normal spec, yet still fully in conformance with the F-1 regs? Meaning that these cars while not necessarily being to the maximum limits, fully confirmed to any minimum requirements that were in place making them legal F-1 cars?

Yet you say "No cars that didn't conform to the F1 upper capacity limits were ever eligible for points" (excluding Indy), but are you saying here that we have had over-capacity sized cars running in races without being points-eligible? This, I don't recall any examples of.

#7 D-Type

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 13:55

Bodywork is a simple one.
The 1961 regs forbade enclosed bodywork. Before that it was acceptable, whether the Mercedes streamliners or de Beaufort's Porsche Spyder.

#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 14:33

I believe the FIA Yearbook is still published, albeit not in the old familiar yellow pocket format. I've seen them on eBay and also in the library at Beaulieu - now in two large hardbound blue-covered volumes.

The newest currently on AbeBooks is a 1997.

Chaters also list a 2001 edition.

#9 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 14:57

The original one here was really, in championship race terms, when is an F-1 car not an F-1 car? Or alternatively, if it looks like an F-1 car and behaves in championship races like an F-1 car, is it really an F-1 car?


Which one you think it is?

I fully appreciate the early years were totally unstandardized compared with the homogenized world of today, but I was really trying to ascertain whether any general conclusions could be reached, not knowing enough about the specifics related to some of the possible exceptions from early on.


The reality is the organizers and not the CSI really decided most of the whole business concerning the F2 cars in their races.

(1) Regarding F-1 regulations, thanks for the detail you supplied. You say various sites have extracts but do any provide all the detail as to who is really the best source available? How complex were the full regs anyway in those early years?


The early regulations were generally fairly simply and rather straight forward.

Interesting that despite the gazillions and mega-double-gazillions of words and electrons expended on the formula one obsession that it is rare to see any of the early CSI regulations or the regulations put out by the various organinzing clubs. That definitely says something very loud and clear.

Despite all of the words written on the 1938/40 CSI international formula, very few knew squat about the sliding weight/displacement scale until a chart was presented from the IMS/AAA.

But when did the series change from a set of races that happened to be to F-1 regs in the early 60s to being a set of, specifically, F-1 races? And weren't there other more specific regs surrounding the championship itself separate from the techincal rules, e.g. race distances?


The easiest answer is 1981 since that is when the current formula one world champinship went into effect, but the shift probably can be traced to the latter part of the 1970s and the rise of the F1CA/FOCA and the transmutation of the CSI into the FISA.

#10 Kvadrat

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 07:08

lofong, WDC was just a procedure of points awarding so from the beginning it wasn't connected to a particular racing class at all. That's why Formula 2 shift was so easy in 1952. NOT WDC shifted to F2 but individual races did.

Championship points were given to any driver in first 5 finishing positions. In terms of championship rules it's no matter in which car did you finish in top 5. If organizers of the race accepted your entry and allowed car to start it had full rights for getting championship points.

There's very simple thing which is very difficult for understanding: World Drivers Championship WASN'T FOR PARTICULAR CLASS OF CARS, it WAS FOR PARTICULAR CLASS OF RACES.

#11 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 15:54

Vladimir, Thank you for writing what some of us were trying to say. You nailed it dead center on target. That is exactly what the difference between 1980 and 1981 means.

#12 lofong

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 01:18

Originally posted by Kvadrat
lofong, WDC was just a procedure of points awarding so from the beginning it wasn't connected to a particular racing class at all. That's why Formula 2 shift was so easy in 1952. NOT WDC shifted to F2 but individual races did.

Championship points were given to any driver in first 5 finishing positions. In terms of championship rules it's no matter in which car did you finish in top 5. If organizers of the race accepted your entry and allowed car to start it had full rights for getting championship points.

There's very simple thing which is very difficult for understanding: World Drivers Championship WASN'T FOR PARTICULAR CLASS OF CARS, it WAS FOR PARTICULAR CLASS OF RACES.

I do understand this as a general concept ..... but if it were so easy, then surely Bruce McLaren would have been awarded points for finishing 5th in Germany in 1958? Other more recent examples that come immediately to mind where points-paying finishers were never awarded points, such as Pescarolo's 5th place in the 1969 German GP, as already explained, and the 1984 Italian GP with the rules then in place, are more understandable.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
That is exactly what the difference between 1980 and 1981 means.

But Don is that really true? As you implied earlier, didn't that really happen before then? I am familiar with (and fascinated by) some of your earlier posts and articles on the significance of 1981, but wasn't the change to the World Championship being for a specific class of cars already in place for a clearly defined number of seasons prior to that?

For example, could the 1978 Long Beach organizers really have chosen to run their event for Indy Cars once it was nominated as a round of the championship? Surely not?

#13 Kvadrat

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 02:43

Originally posted by lofong

I do understand this as a general concept ..... but if it were so easy, then surely Bruce McLaren would have been awarded points for finishing 5th in Germany in 1958? Other more recent examples that come immediately to mind where points-paying finishers were never awarded points, such as Pescarolo's 5th place in the 1969 German GP, as already explained, and the 1984 Italian GP with the rules then in place, are more understandable.


I don't know exactly what happend but can guess that organizers allowed lower class cars to start along with Grand Prix cars with no right of getting place in Grand Prix race classification.

Originally posted by lofong

For example, could the 1978 Long Beach organizers really have chosen to run their event for Indy Cars once it was nominated as a round of the championship? Surely not?


Why not? 1980 Spanish Grand Prix and 1981 South African Grand Prix were originally included in WDC and Formula One WC respectively. Then FISA decided that the races' organizers broke rules and excluded the races from championship.

#14 Rob29

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 08:53

Why not? 1980 Spanish Grand Prix and 1981 South African Grand Prix were originally included in WDC and Formula One WC respectively. Then FISA decided that the races' organizers broke rules and excluded the races from championship. [/B][/QUOTE]This only applies as I understand it to Jarama. South Africa the non-FOCA teams claimed due to change in rules they could not get their cars ready in time so FIA excluded it BEFORE the event?
The change to the current rules was not an overnight process 80/81 as suggested.No non F1 cars allowed since 1961 or covered wheels.F2 cars ran on the Nordscliefe,as a separate class to fill the track Iguess :)

#15 Paolo

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 10:32

I'd like to see this become a sticky thread with regulation history for various categories.
Each of us could contribute with further details, finally having complete tech rules for every year and every category.

My small contribution: in 1983, F1 cars with more than 4 wheels were prohibited, 4x4 too and maximum rear wing width went from 110 cm to 100 cm.

#16 RTH

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 11:49

54-57 did anyone actually run a 750cc supercharged engine ?

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 11:58

Yes, though not in any world championship rounds

#18 RTH

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 15:48

Originally posted by David McKinney
Yes, though not in any world championship rounds


That's interesting David do we know anything about which cars and what happened to them ?

#19 Rob29

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 16:59

Pau GP 1955
Paul Armagnac,Claude Storez,Jean-Claude Vidilles-all in DB Panhards

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#20 ensign14

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 17:26

Plus Berardo Taraschi in a Giaur in the 1954 Gran Premio di Roma, lasted 5 laps.

Then there was Peter Gleed's Cooper Mk IV with supercharged MG, which was allegedly entered in a Goodwood race in 1958 but DNA'd.

So basically you had F3 cars adapted for F1 - wonder whether that was the aim of the regulation.

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 18:31

Originally posted by lofong

I do understand this as a general concept ..... but if it were so easy, then surely Bruce McLaren would have been awarded points for finishing 5th in Germany in 1958? Other more recent examples that come immediately to mind where points-paying finishers were never awarded points, such as Pescarolo's 5th place in the 1969 German GP, as already explained, and the 1984 Italian GP with the rules then in place, are more understandable.

Running F2 cars with F1 cars harks back to the pre-War era, when voiturette or cyclecar classes ran at the same time as the GP cars. In some cases they started from a separate grid and/or shortly after the GP class. These were usually concurrent and separate races designed, like the post-War German (and Moroccan) GPs cited, to keep the crowd interested when a fairly small field was strung out around a long circuit. Notable examples were at Nurburgring, Tripoli and Brno. The smaller cars usually had fewer laps to cover. Strangely, they never did that at Pescara!

#22 D-Type

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 22:27

I believe the key to this question is the individual race regulations. Broadly speaking there were three situations. The first is when a car smaller than a conventional GP car was accepted as an entry: Schell's Cooper at Monaco in 1950, Stirling Moss's HWM and Peter Hirt's Veritas at Bremgarten in 1951 for example. The other is the German GP situation where they ran a formula 2 race at the same time as the GP but stipulated that it was a separate race. And finally the organisers might have separate class for formula 2 cars but still accept them as entries for the GP. As raceregulations were drawn up separately for each event, such differences occurred. As they moved towards standardisation and at the same time made the Formula 1 rules more prescriptive, these anomalies became fewer and fewer.

#23 Kvadrat

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 00:35

Originally posted by D-Type
As they moved towards standardisation and at the same time made the Formula 1 rules more prescriptive, these anomalies became fewer and fewer.


What do you mean saying "Formula 1" in this sentence?

#24 D-Type

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 10:15

Originally posted by Kvadrat


What do you mean saying "Formula 1" in this sentence?

The set of rules published by the FIA/CSI/FISA organisation that defined a Formula 1 car, as opposed to those defining a Formula 2 car, a Formula 3 car, or a sports car. I have never seen a copy of the "Yellow Book" nor have I ever seen a set of race regulations so I am not certain of the precise terminology used therein.

There is a distinction between usage of the term "Formula 1" or "Formula 2" colloquially or descriptively and its use as a legal term.

#25 lofong

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 01:59

So I'm thinking maybe thanks to Rob29 and others, things are straight-forward from 1961 onwards to the present.

All championship races from that point on were actually run to F-1 rules and nothing but F-1 rules -- excepting the aforementioned addendum for the 1972 season. (Not sure why Jarama 1980 got cited as an argument against my hypothetical example of a championship race being possibly run to regs other than F-1, since this Spanish race was not deliberately intended to be run as a non-F-1 race. My assumption is still that this wasn't possible and I now expand thisto cover the seasons 1961 and forwards.)

Also all competing cars from 1961 on conformed to F-1 regs, even if they were ballasted F-2 cars -- excepting the aforementioned 1966, 1967 and 1969 German races where the F-2 class was effectively a separate race. (I don't recall any other races during that period after 1960 having F-2 classes, or am I wrong on this?)

So any arguments from anyone so far? If not, that just leaves the murkiness and the anomalies surrounding the period 1950-1960.

But nobody has touched the earlier point as to championship-level regulations, e.g. the race distance requirements, which is the one that always immediately comes to mind. What other rules, if any, covered the championship and its races, as distinct from the F-1 regulations?

Originally posted by D-Type
I believe the key to this question is the individual race regulations. Broadly speaking there were three situations. The first is when a car smaller than a conventional GP car was accepted as an entry: Schell's Cooper at Monaco in 1950, Stirling Moss's HWM and Peter Hirt's Veritas at Bremgarten in 1951 for example. The other is the German GP situation where they ran a formula 2 race at the same time as the GP but stipulated that it was a separate race. And finally the organisers might have separate class for formula 2 cars but still accept them as entries for the GP. As raceregulations were drawn up separately for each event, such differences occurred.

Also could somebody explain in simple terms to this buffoon why Bruce McLaren did not seem to score points in 1958 while Hans Herrmann did in 1960, when both seemed to be competing in F-2 cars in championship races that had separate F-2 classes? I believe both of these examples fall into your third category of races that had a separate F-2 class but which were still accepted as entries into the GP. So what is the distinction here?

Lastly, re the first category, you talk about cars smaller than a conventional GP car. Are you talking 'smaller' in terms of engine size or vehicle dimensions? Your earlier post of the applicable regulations did not specify any minimum for those years. What catgeories did these cars you example conform to in the specifications that they actually raced in these events (i.e. valid F-1 or not?) and were they therefore competing in those races to be potentially rewarded with championship points or not?

#26 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 17:36

To be honest, I think that you need to take a deep cleansing breath and accept that this will become clear -- or at least less opaque -- at some point in the future.

You need to purge the current concept from your mind and understand that "formula one" was exactly what it was "International Racing Formula One," a set of parameters for the technical specifications of a racing machine. The regulations for the CSI world championship in the early years were generally sparse and always supplemented by the local "ground rules" -- that is that the autonomy of the organizing club was not affected all that much by the CSI blazers -- whose sole purpose then was the same then as now, to just get in the way of those trying to run things.

The basic regulations of the CSI world championship were far less restrictive as to what things were done and how they were done. An organizing club had enormous leeway in the entry for an event. Generally, they could pretty damn well do what they wished -- a car in F2 specs could run with the big boys and score points or only be eligible for any prizes and whatnot for that particular class. It was their race, by golly, and outside a few narrow areas the CSI was an observer and not a player.

"Size" in these discussions generally connotes engine displacement.

It is interesting to note that when the world championship regulations were changed by the CSI for the 1958 season, an organizing club could still run a three hour, 500 kilometer grand prix if it so wished. However, most opted for race distances and times at or near the new minimums. Translation: why do more than you have to?

With the advent of the Twiddler Formula, much of the modern scene begins to appear, especially the formation of the F1CA in January 1964 in the wake of the teams hammering out the Paris Agreement in November 1963.

Given the fact that the displacement and minimum weights for the formula one in force were deliberately set to pre-empt the inclusion of the junior formulae of the day -- along with the CSI finally dropping the International Sweeptakes from the world championship calendar, this had the effect of wedding formula one and the CSI championship together in the minds of most. The term "grand prix" begins to be replaced by formula one and championship events begin to dwindle.

Growth of the F1CA, growing concerns on the part of the CSI and the organizing clubs , and rise in importance of the commercial aspects of motor sports leads to stresses and strains and the FIASCO War, with the old CSI championship being given the chop at the end of the 1980 season and as of 1981 formula one now officially being both the technical and sporting aspects for the F1 world championship.

Thus, "the murkiness and the anomalies" of grand prix racing and the CSI world championship were eliminated, banished, from the scene.

It is interesting to note that all this parallels the rise of Britain in grand prix racing and racing in general.

#27 Kvadrat

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 04:25

I have a little contemporary sources of information but it's something interesting to read. Personally I'm too tired as I had very busy week so I only post some pages from 1949 and 1960 press with some tips for discussion and don't analyze them myself.

In 1949, there was no any mention of the WDC for the coming season. Why? I think because it was just an extra competition part of global and monumental world of Grand Prix racing. So present image of The One and Only Super Series Formula One WDC is very incorrect.

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

In 1960, there were discussions on new Grand Prix class.

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#28 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 17:53

lofong,

If you take the time to read the pages from the past that Vladimir has kindly taken the time to post, you can begin to get a sensing of what several of us have been trying to convey -- that the idea of the FIA (CSI) world championship and formula one being one and the same is a recent reality. Yes, the CSI usually ran its world championshp to the current formula one, but it was not a requirement that it do so.

Also, please note that it is almost always "grand prix" racing that is referred to and not "formula one." The references to the formulae in 1949 as "A" or "B" -- and even "C" -- are interesting given discussions elsewhere on TNF.

One comment that I have to point out is the one made by John Wyer on concerning the raison d'etre of grand prix racing: "It must provide a spectacle which will attract, and entertain, the paying public." As he mentions, this is not always synonymous with the other reason which is building the fastest car.

Once upon a time, each venue and event in grand prix racing was unique. There things which made each circuit or each event distinct -- for better or worse -- from other events. You could look at a photograph and instantly recognize the venue, often for any number of reasons. Going to Spa and strolling around the paddock was not the same as doing so at Silverstone or Monza or Reims or Rouen or wherever -- whereas today, each event is generally as much like the others as possible, the differences often being more an issue of them being unavoidable than by design.

What you get today is a standardized product wherever you are, versus the wide variety of offerings in the past. This latter approach was not always a blessing, especially in such areas a creature comforts and food. Food at most British venues would have been refused by those starving on the Bataan Death March. Many of the venues on The Continent were scarcely better -- the only difference being that the death marchers might have at least tried to eat it....

At any rate, lofong, take some time and most of this might begin to make some sense after a bit.

#29 Kvadrat

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 01:57

There's another very interesting thing about history of Grand Prix racing and Formula One, and its name SERIES .

You can see very often that fans refer to Formula 1, 2, 3, 5000, Junior and so on series being in the past. For example, in a quiz fan posts picture from the thirties and asks to name driver, car, race, circuit and SERIES. And "correct" answer is Grand prix series.

If someone has enough magazines from 1980s-1990s, you can search for word "series" to find out when it appeared in motorsports. I made this search in Russian press and found out that word "series" appeared very briefly in 1990, and then in 1991 and 1992 its usage became more frequent. In 1993 and 1994 journalists used it very often.

It's interesting to see that kind of competition to which word "series" is associated is very specific although in present time all motorsport consists of such a series.

So we need to clarify the term SERIES. What's this?

Looking at motorsports history we can see that most of championships in the past were based on existing races. Championship organizer only introdused system of points awarding and then counted points. World Championship of 1920s, European Championship of 1930s, BRDC Gold Star Championship, Italian Championship of 1940s - all were of that kind of competition. Championship organizers didn't dictate rules for race organizers.

Today when we have only SERIES it's another kind of competition in which there's the same organizer for technical, sporting and financial sides of the matter.

In the past championship organizer announced championship points awarding races before season starts and then it was just an observer who accepts races results issued by races organizers and counts points. If some race organizer cancelled race for financial or other reasons championship organizer had only to accept this.

Now only championship (series) organizer makes decisions on everything. Before series starts it compiles circuits list, finds sponsors for the whole set of races and then begins to find participants for THE WHOLE SET OF RACES. And series participants compete ONLY in THAT SERIES.

Everything in modern multistage competition called series is made for the whole set of races. And that's the difference from former kind of multistage competition.

So what we have? In the past there was a kind of competition which was called championship. In the present there is different kind of competition and everyone calls it series.

So we can accept these two words - championship and series - as scientific terms for different types of muiltistage motorsports competition.

#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 12:03

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I believe the FIA Yearbook is still published, albeit not in the old familiar yellow pocket format. I've seen them on eBay and also in the library at Beaulieu - now in two large hardbound blue-covered volumes.

The newest currently on AbeBooks is a 1997.

Chaters also list a 2001 edition.

A couple of 1990s ones on eBay right now: item numbers 170081164447 and 170081165892

#31 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 18:32

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


It is interesting to note that all this parallels the rise of Britain in grand prix racing and racing in general.

Perhaps, but most significant was the involvement of the British teams in American racing and their realisation that motor racing was an activity that they could make money out of if it was promoted properly.

#32 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 19:32

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Perhaps, but most significant was the involvement of the British teams in American racing and their realisation that motor racing was an activity that they could make money out of if it was promoted properly.


Precisely.

#33 D-Type

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 23:39

Don,

I know about the rebranding as the "FIA Formula 1 World Championship" in 1981. With the wisdom of hindsight, this was a very shrewd move on the part of Balestre - it unequivocally laid down that the championship and Formula 1 belonged to the FIA not FOCA and nipped in the bud any plans by FOCA to hold an alternative World Championship

But, when did Bernie (or was it Max and Bernie?) manage to register "Formula 1" as a trade mark?

#34 Rob29

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:07

Originally posted by D-Type
Don,



But, when did Bernie (or was it Max and Bernie?) manage to register "Formula 1" as a trade mark?

Must have been recently as I have seen F1 races for planes,bikes,boats,stock cars(the UK kind!)

#35 D-Type

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 20:12

Rob29,

A couple of books I have, the earliest is dated 2001 contane a note on the page with copyright, acknowledgements etc that says:

"Formula One", "Formula 1", "F1" and "FIA Formula One World championship" (together with their non-English translations and permutations) are Trademarks or registered trademarks of the Formula One group of companies. All rights reserved.

The yearbook copyrighted 2001 has it while the one from 2000 doesn't, which suggests that Messrs. Ecclestone and Moseley registered the trademark then.

I think this means you can no longer have a Formula 1 class for power boats, karts, cycles, stock cars or whatever, nor can you market "Formula 1 aftershave" or "Formula 1 viagra" or produce a "Repmobile Formula 1"

#36 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 20:44

There must be some sort of limit on Bernie's use of the trademark - the Formule One hotel chain still seems to be flourishing.

#37 Rob29

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 08:55

So do the stock cars.

#38 roger_valentine

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 13:11

But, when did Bernie (or was it Max and Bernie?) manage to register "Formula 1" as a trade mark?

This has been discussed elswhere (on the other forum)
http://forums.autosp...&threadid=74974

I think the conclusion was that Formule 1 Hotels are OK, but if they tried to open one at Silverstone...

#39 D-Type

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 17:49

Thanks for the link.

I used 'Search BB' to look for trademark, but I limited the search to TNF. :o

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#40 lofong

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 04:43

Fascinating extracts, Kvadrat. Thanks for posting them. Always good to read such old articles and get a feel for the mindset of the day. It is interesting that the championship was totally ignored in those 1949 pieces. But this is the UK and one wonders whether this would have been treated the same way in the Italian or French specialist press of the time.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
To be honest, I think that you need to take a deep cleansing breath and accept that this will become clear -- or at least less opaque -- at some point in the future.

You need to purge the current concept from your mind and understand that "formula one" was exactly what it was "International Racing Formula One," a set of parameters for the technical specifications of a racing machine. The regulations for the CSI world championship in the early years were generally sparse and always supplemented by the local "ground rules" -- that is that the autonomy of the organizing club was not affected all that much by the CSI blazers -- whose sole purpose then was the same then as now, to just get in the way of those trying to run things. Given the fact that the displacement and minimum weights for the formula one in force were deliberately set to pre-empt the inclusion of the junior formulae of the day -- along with the CSI finally dropping the International Sweeptakes from the world championship calendar, this had the effect of wedding formula one and the CSI championship together in the minds of most. The term "grand prix" begins to be replaced by formula one and championship events begin to dwindle.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
If you take the time to read the pages from the past that Vladimir has kindly taken the time to post, you can begin to get a sensing of what several of us have been trying to convey -- that the idea of the FIA (CSI) world championship and formula one being one and the same is a recent reality. Yes, the CSI usually ran its world championshp to the current formula one, but it was not a requirement that it do so.

Also, please note that it is almost always "grand prix" racing that is referred to and not "formula one." The references to the formulae in 1949 as "A" or "B" -- and even "C" -- are interesting given discussions elsewhere on TNF.

At any rate, lofong, take some time and most of this might begin to make some sense after a bit.

It's not that I need time to grasp the concepts here or make sense of it all. Maybe I've given the wrong impression in my earlier posts. I've asked some black and white questions here. I'm entirely comfortable with the concept that things have evolved. That wasn't really the issue for me. I was hoping from this place of knowledge to get more meat regarding which generalizations do hold true, and what specific exceptions exist. What I'm trying to ascertain is exactly what rules were in place and for what period in time. And what general statements hold water, pertaining to the championship as a whole, from its 1950 inception onwards, given that this, for better or worse, has evolved into the primary focus for those interested in the show currently on offer today. In this current era it seems the races have lost their individual significance and might as easily just be numbered events held on variations of the same Tilke-designed circuit, since the relevance of results of individual events seems primarily to revolve around their effect on the championship standings. On this, Don, I totally concur with the points you made earlier about the classic events. As McGoohan would say, "they are not a number ....... "

Some of today's website F-1 statisticians are seemingly oblivious to the fact that some of the anomalies we have discussed here even exist. And of course they make their subjective calls as to what should be included when looking from 1950 through to the present. They might perhaps ignore the Indy 500 races from their 'Formula 1' stats but it wouldn't occur to them to exclude the whole of the I952/3 seasons -- in just the same way that they each may have different interpretations as to what from their statistical persective constitutes a race start. Although it might make sense to see the years 1950-1980 in a separate light from the period from 1981 on (altho' to me, reflecting on the comments here, 1961 might present a more logical break point), realistically the championship is always going to be viewed as a single entity starting in 1950.

One initial area of confusion that prompted this thread for me was around the first works BMW entry of Hubert Hahne in the 1967 German race, which seems to be a source of confusion to many current 'F1' statisticians. I believe this car was a F-2 chassis running with a 2-lire engine as part of the F-1 class for that race. But formula1.com is among the sites that ignore it from their results. Similarly I believe I have seen other references to it, either here or in 8W articles, as a true F-2 entry, which I do not think is correct. Other examples like the de Beaufort Porsche or the Rodger Ward Sebring entry have added to the confusion.

Although obviously of interest here, it doesn't really matter in the big picture today how the championship was perceived in its day. The reality was that the championship did exist, certain rules, albeit limited, were in force governing both F-1 and how the championship and its races were run and a particular set of car entries started those races. The terminology used such as Formula A vs. Formula 1 while intriguing is irrelevant in this discussion.

For example you have mentioned engine size, but did size really matter, as they say? I am still not getting a clear picture from earlier posts as to whether for example these 'smaller' cars still conformed to the F-1 rules then in place or whether they ran outside minimum F-1 limits.

Maybe I should re-phrase some of my initial questions. Ignoring here the Indy 500 races and the aforementioned F-2 seasons and those occasions when F-2 classes were run where it was specifically deemed that entrants were not running for championship points, it seems that, despite their individual race regulations, all the remaining events accepted F-1 cars -- although they may have also accepted cars from other classes. (Don when you say "the CSI usually ran its world championshp to the current formula one, but it was not a requirement that it do so.", are you implying there were other exception races not yet mentioned here?)

So although F-2 cars and other entries may have been accepted, did these cars simultaneously conform to the F-1 regulations of the day? Regarding championship points did those 1960 F-2 cars get awarded points simply because the race regulations for that particular event accepted them as entries for the main event, rather than defining them as part of a separate class ineligible for points? Bearing all this in mind, it still seems to boil down in my simplistic mind to two main questions covering those years 1950-1980 (excluding as I say 1952, 1953 and the Indy 500 races) .......

Which cars have actually run in any championship races, not in any defined separate class, and yet not conformed to the then current F-1 regulations?

Which cars have actually run in any championship races, not in any defined separate class, and yet not been eligible for championship points?

Shouldn't there be a definitive list somewhere of those races that ran separate classes and a complete list of the exceptions to the 2 questions posed above, with explanations where applicable. It seems like this forum should be the place -- or is there a separate source currently available that already does spell this out? Otherwise, it seems that otherwise the distinctions related to the early championship seasons will only get further blurred as the years continue to pass.

#41 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 01:42

Iofong,

"What we have here is failure to communicate." -- Strother Martin in "Cool Hand Luke"

Until the 1961 season, the regulations for formula one did not stipulate a minimum engine displacement. When the new formula one went into effect in with the 1966, it did not stipulate a minimum engine displacement, but it did have a minimum weight that had to be met to run run the formula one class. So, unless an organizing club stipulated that the formula two cars were running in a separate and distinct race for that class, any car accepted for the world championship event was eligible for points.

Which cars have actually run in any championship races, not in any defined separate class, and yet not conformed to the then current F-1 regulations?

Which cars have actually run in any championship races, not in any defined separate class, and yet not been eligible for championship points?


This really isn't as difficult as you seem to be making it.

The CSI could run the world championship for drivers to whatever formula or scheme that it wished, there being a logical reason for using the formula one currently in effect. Keep in mind that the CSI technical regulations for formula one and its regulations for the world championship were two separate items, not one and the same as it is today.

Postscript.

The entry by BMW of a Lola Type 100 powered by a 2-litre version of the M10 for Hubert Hahne for the 1967 GP v D could have scored points had it finished in the first six, just as the Matra MS7 Cosworth FVA of JP Beltoise almost did at Watkins Glen and Mexico City by finishing seventh.

Had any one of the three formula two machines survived more than a lap at the 1959 GP de MC and finished in the top five, it would have scored world championship points for its driver and marque.

#42 rateus

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 03:49

Had any one of the three formula two machines survived more than a lap at the 1959 GP de MC and finished in the top five, it would have scored world championship points for its driver and marque.


Really? Some sources, for example the Black Books, have MC 1959 as one of those races with a separate class for F2 cars, which would have presumably been classified separately if any of them had finished, and therefore would not have been entitled to Championship points.

This circumstance did arise in Germany the previous year, where Cliff Allison finished 5th in the 'F1' section of the race, but was not awarded points as no fewer than 5 other cars from the 'F2' race beat him as well. And no, Bruce McLaren (the F2 winner) didn't get points either.

#43 lofong

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 13:27

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
This really isn't as difficult as you seem to be making it.

Sorry, not deliberately doing so and thanks for your patience on this. Like I said earlier I believe these distinctions are a likely common source of confusion, obviously more to the many who seem to lurk here and gain new knowledge of and insight into the past (myself included), rather than the forum's regulars.

The goal was to try and understand how well the past actually fitted into today's more rigid structure for the sport, given its less standardized past. The conclusion I am drawing, for lack of any specific exceptions provided here to the contrary, is that it does and I can safely state for example that all entrants for every championship race (usual caveats excepted) have conformed to F-1 regs, even though the cars might have been run in these events in their standard configuration for other formulae.

#44 Kvadrat

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 14:11

lofong and others interested in this theme, here are two 1960 WDC tables.

The first one is from the period press:

Posted Image

The second one was made by modern historian:

http://members.fortu...1965/f11960.htm

Can you see a difference? Modern table includes ALL races participants because Common Knowledge thinks that whole races were parts of the championship ran under one and only common rules.

1960 table contains only top 5 finishers of all races because IN REALITY the cahmpionship was just a table.

I think you don't need to find every link to something with the name similar to modern SUPER GLOBAL SHOW called Formula One World Championship. Modern Formula One is commercial racing series, former Formula 1 was a top racing class. Grand Prix racing is what is needed to be recearched more carefully than fictious WDC series.

#45 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 15:18

Originally posted by rateus
Really? Some sources, for example the Black Books, have MC 1959 as one of those races with a separate class for F2 cars, which would have presumably been classified separately if any of them had finished, and therefore would not have been entitled to Championship points.


Really.

The important point is that the formula two cars had to get on the grid on their own head-to-head with the other cars competing for a starting position. The reason for the formula two cars being ivolved in the first place was because the club decided to accept entries for formula two machines to pad out the fiield since it was looking a bit thin entry-wise.

Draw your own conclusions as to what would have happened had the three not taken themselves out during the second lap....

This circumstance did arise in Germany the previous year, where Cliff Allison finished 5th in the 'F1' section of the race, but was not awarded points as no fewer than 5 other cars from the 'F2' race beat him as well. And no, Bruce McLaren (the F2 winner) didn't get points either.


The organizing club was very much up-front regarding the situation of there being two races run simultaneously. The formula two cars did quite well in large part due to the formula one field thinning itself out through retirements. That Allison was not given any points at the time was scarcely noted at the moment since it really wasn't that big a big deal. Given the myriad race regulations involved for this event, one being a minimum of six laps being run during practice, doubtless they had one for being two laps back in the formula one class as being ineligible for any points.

#46 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 15:28

Originally posted by lofong
Sorry, not deliberately doing so and thanks for your patience on this. Like I said earlier I believe these distinctions are a likely common source of confusion, obviously more to the many who seem to lurk here and gain new knowledge of and insight into the past (myself included), rather than the forum's regulars.

The goal was to try and understand how well the past actually fitted into today's more rigid structure for the sport, given its less standardized past. The conclusion I am drawing, for lack of any specific exceptions provided here to the contrary, is that it does and I can safely state for example that all entrants for every championship race (usual caveats excepted) have conformed to F-1 regs, even though the cars might have been run in these events in their standard configuration for other formulae.


Magic Question: What do you call the formula two Cooper with the FPF punched out to about two-litres that Rob Walker ran for Stirling Moss and Maurice Trintignant in early 1958? A modified formula two car? A formula one car? Or what?

Once again, the hell with the silly nonsense of using the current formula one as the lens through which to view the past. It does not work. It shackles the mind, erodes the brain, and blinds the eye to the blindling obvious to say nothing to the nuances. To say nothing of being irrelevant.

I will now leave you to your own discoveries and conclusions.

#47 lofong

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 17:46

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Magic Question: What do you call the formula two Cooper with the FPF punched out to about two-litres that Rob Walker ran for Stirling Moss and Maurice Trintignant in early 1958? A modified formula two car? A formula one car? Or what?

Once again, the hell with the silly nonsense of using the current formula one as the lens through which to view the past. It does not work.

It may not work or be appropriate but, like it or not, the reality is that it is what is being done by the modern statisticians in the real world. Whether your example is termed a modified formula 2 car or whatever is of minor importance, to my mind the more interesting consideration in today's context is whether these historic examples did fit within the F-1 pattern of their day.

#48 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 18:33

Originally posted by lofong
It may not work or be appropriate but, like it or not, the reality is that it is what is being done by the modern statisticians in the real world. Whether your example is termed a modified formula 2 car or whatever is of minor importance, to my mind the more interesting consideration in today's context is whether these historic examples did fit within the F-1 pattern of their day.


: :rolleyes:




Postscript.

Sorry, but the "modern statisticians in the real world" tend to be clueless when it comes to anything beyond a few seasons in the past, especially if things don't fit their precious little databases. Their "real world" is a fantasy.

As for "today's contrext" and whether or not they "fit the F-1 pattern of their day," I seem utterly helpless in trying to provide you any assistance with this. Good luck.