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#1 HistoricMustang

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 22:40

Was I the only TNFer who would lay awake at night trying to figure out how to do this stuff and not get caught? :rotfl:

Heck, NASCAR is taking away points and the season has not even started!

Give us some of those stories! (Like having your buddy lean on the car while it rolled over the scales)

Henry

From Jayski.............


Waltrip announcement soon? hearing that NASCAR will make an announcement soon fining Michael $100,000, docking him 100 owner and driver points and suspending the crew chief indefinitely. Waltrip will be able to run in the Gatorade Duel 150's but will start from the rear of the field.(2-14-2007)


Waltrip's crew chief suspended: David Hyder, the crew chief for Michael Waltrip, has been suspended indefinitely for infractions discovered on the #55 Toyota during Sunday's post-qualifying inspection for the Daytona 500. Further penalties against Waltrip's team will be announced at a press conference later on Wednesday. They are expected to be more severe than the two- and four-race suspensions of crew chiefs from four other teams that were announced on Tuesday. NASCAR chairman Brian France and president Mike Helton were among those that met with Waltrip and officials from Michael Waltrip Racing before Wednesday's first practice session. One official described the situation as "very serious." Lee White, the senior vice president for Toyota Racing Development that is making its Nextel Cup debut at Daytona, said he also planned to meet with Waltrip. "I wouldn't call it a setback, but it's disappointing for anyone that we partner with to have this happen in some form or fashion," he said. "We will talk with them to see where we need to go for the future." White said TRD has been working with NASCAR on the situation. "I can honestly tell you from an ethics standpoint and integrity, along with character and honesty, those things are paramount in our company," he said. "We hold ourselves to a high standard and we hold our teams to high standards. We hope we've picked the right ones."(ESPN.com)
ALSO: Bobby Kennedy, MWR's Director of Competition, was escorted out of the track at Daytona by NASCAR's Robin Pemberton.(2-14-2007)
UPDATE: SPEED is reporting an announcement is coming this afternoon, could be as soon as the last Cup practice of the day is run [around 3:00pm/et], hearing another report that the 'substance' could be jet fuel.(2-14-2007)


#55 manifold confiscated; car impounded UPDATE 6 #00 reskin? have to use #32?: during pre-qualifying inspection, the intake manifold of the #55 NAPA Toyota of Michael Waltrip was confiscated by NASCAR, it didn't meet specifications and the team had to install another one.(SPEED's NASCAR Live), been told there was a substance on the inside of the manifold and it was taken away in a black bag, will be taken to NASCAR R&D center in Concord, NC to be examined, Waltrip's team was allowed to change engines, go thru tech inspection and make a qualifying attempt, Waltrip qualified 25th.(2-11-2007)
UPDATE: the #55 Toyota was impounded by NASCAR and Hunter said the car would be inspected 'with a fine tooth comb'.(PRN's Garage Pass Radio Show)(2-11-2007)
UPDATE 2: NASCAR impounded the #55 NAPA Toyota of driver/owner Michael Waltrip after qualifying. NASCAR officials confiscated the intake manifold off Waltrip's Camry during a prequalifying inspection. NASCAR officials don't know if Waltrip's car is illegal. Waltrip's fate is up in the air. Hunter said NASCAR officials decided to impound the car before qualifying, but allowed Waltrip to make a qualifying run after placing a new manifold on the car. Now NASCAR officials will inspect the entire car to determine if any violations exist. "Our inspectors will go over that car a with a fine-tooth comb," Hunter said. "I don't know how long we will keep it. As of right now, we do not know that the manifold is illegal, but we want to know." Robin Pemberton, NASCAR's director of competition, said officials sent the manifold to the NASCAR Research and Development Center in Concord, N.C., for testing Monday. "Our inspector caught a substance inside that we didn't really know what it was," Pemberton said about the manifold. Pemberton wouldn't give specifics about the problem, but Waltrip said inspectors found oil inside the manifold. "And it's not supposed to be there," Waltrip said. "So they took it to see why the oil was there. I don't really understand what is going on, and people here a lot smarter than me don't understand it either, but we'll figure it out. I'm sure it'll be fine." Hunter wasn't buying Waltrip's explanation. "Our inspection team was not comfortable that it was oil," Hunter said. Pemberton said the situation with the #55 problem was not specific to any individual manufacturer. (ESPN.com)(2-12-2007)
UPDATE 3: Waltrip's Toyota was impounded, with Hunter raising the possibility Waltrip will not be allowed to run that particular car in the 150s or the 500. "We'll go over that car with a fine-tooth comb ... and I don't know how long we'll keep it," Hunter said. Sterno? That's the horsepower trick that rivals suspect tripped up Waltrip when he was busted by NASCAR in the pre-qualifying inspection line for having some unknown "substance" in his intake manifold. NASCAR's Robin Pemberton, the vice president for competition, said that the manifold was being sent back the Concord R&D center for analysis. Presumably the substance could have been some type of oxidant, to provide a bit of horsepower for a short period of time. For years, stock-car teams have at times used such illegal chemical additives at Daytona and Talladega, where NASCAR severely restricts air to the engine, to limit speeds. Ty Norris, the general manager of Waltrip's team, insisted that it was not Sterno: "No, no, no, no. They found some oil in the manifold and said it shouldn't be there," Norris said. "They thought something was amiss. So we changed manifolds, and had the same issue. We showed NASCAR we thought it was blow-by engine oil.(Winston Salem Journal)(2-12-2007)
UPDATE 4: Waltrip told Marty Smith on ESPN's NASCAR Now that he will get the car back to practice on Wednesday and run the Gatorade Duel's 150. Smith also said that NASCAR told him penalties would not be announced until late Tuesday afternoon at the earliest or as late as Wednesday.(2-12-2007)
UPDATE 5: Marty Snider of Sirius NASCAR Radio, Ch 128 reported that NASCAR has not given the primary car back, has given no indication if the team will get the car back or any penalties, the #55 team is preparing the backup car from #00-Reutimann's team to practice today, which is scheduled to start at 12:00noon/et.(2-14-2007)



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#2 David M. Kane

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 23:56

Apparently they found AVFuel gel in the manifold...hmmm...

#3 JSF

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 01:45

Toyota linked with cheating, surely not!

"I can honestly tell you from an ethics standpoint and integrity, along with character and honesty, those things are paramount in our company,"

:rotfl:

#4 RA Historian

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 04:14

who could possibly give a ....

#5 Cynic

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 04:31

Quite a few people, actually, including even some on here.

Sorry if I take your posting as arrogant -- I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

#6 Rob G

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 04:51

Well, Richard Petty was allowed to keep his 198th win (Charlotte, 1983) despite having an oversized engine. Times have changed, I guess. Kind of, sort of...

#7 cosworth bdg

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:26

:down: :down: :down:

Originally posted by Rob G
Well, Richard Petty was allowed to keep his 198th win (Charlotte, 1983) despite having an oversized engine. Times have changed, I guess. Kind of, sort of...

Cheats are always CHEATS........ :down: :down: :down: :down:

#8 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 06:43

Originally posted by RA Historian
who could possibly give a ....

Originally posted by Cynic
Quite a few people, actually, including even some on here.

Sorry if I take your posting as arrogant -- I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.


Nope, I am quite certain that he did indeed mean it that way. However, it is also his privilege to do so.

The technical and administrative aspects of any form of motor racing has scarcely been a beacon for moral rectitude, NASCAR simply being much more open about it. The antics at Le Mans or the moral morass of SCCA production racing are easily in the same boat, just not as entertaining.

Not that it matters to most here, but that 198th "victory" carried with it consequences that went far beyond those doled out by NASCAR. In essence, it destroyed Petty Enterprises. They never really recovered from the problems that this created within the organization. So, at least in this case, there were truly consequences directly associated with the act that are often overlooked or simply ignored.

"Cheats are always CHEATS........ " Yep, once a sinnner, always a sinner.

#9 HistoricMustang

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 11:27

Pretty interesting:

http://sports.yahoo....ov=ap&type=lgns :blush:

http://msn.foxsports...r/story/3473888

Don, you are so correct!

#10 rl1856

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 15:34

And Toyota learns in very specific terms, that Nascar is not giving them any breaks.

After a year of testing, after previous experience of doing well in the Nascar Truck Series, the Camry is not competative at Daytona. What a setback this must be for Toyota and behind closed doors in Detroit, I am sure that there are many executives breathing a sigh of relief.

Best,

Ross

#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 15:49

Might as well retire and go home, eh?

#12 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 15:51

Like the crisis in the Middle East being aligned with the Crusades, is the TRD situation related to Pearl Harbor...or the Honda fiasco in F1 a while back; after all this has been an All-American Series until now. I fail to see the balance in the TRD penalty compared to the others.

Personally, I think all cheaters should be shot, I'm sick of it in any sport.

#13 FLB

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 16:45

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Personally, I think all cheaters should be shot, I'm sick of it in any sport.

In NASCAR terms, I think exclusion from a race meeting would be a good idea because it would piss off the sponsors. They would be the ones putting pressure on the teams to make sure nothing of the sort ever happened again, and I believe they would also be far more effective. Allow the system to take care of it naturally and hit the teams at their revenue source.

In this particular case, there is a long list of such offenses involving Toyota. Keeping in mind that this is TNF, do any of you know if they were ever involved in such controversies while racing in Group 7 in Japan? In other series, beside F1, the WRC, Le Mans and now NASCAR Grand National/Winston/Nextel/Whatever Cup? When was Toyota's first offense?

#14 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 16:48

And just to be on the fair side, can we seperate TRD from Toyota Global? I can't think of anything from the CART/IRL years where TRD did anything questionable. The Rally Turbo and F1 espionage incidents were Toyota Team Europe. Likewise the grey area on the design interpretation of the GT-One Le Mans car.

#15 FLB

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 17:17

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
And just to be on the fair side, can we seperate TRD from Toyota Global? I can't think of anything from the CART/IRL years where TRD did anything questionable.

Wasn't there an electronic pop-off valve (CART) controversy involving TRD around 2000? That IIRC some Ganassi guys had apparently disconnected it in a pitstop?

#16 ray b

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 17:17

if you ain't cheating in nastycar
you ain't trying

''yellow flags are like folding chairs in so called pro wrestling
not a part of the sport but draged out every time the action gets slow''

#17 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 18:24

Originally posted by FLB

Wasn't there an electronic pop-off valve (CART) controversy involving TRD around 2000? That IIRC some Ganassi guys had apparently disconnected it in a pitstop?


There was a big flap in 2001 over CART introducing a spacer on the pop-off valve mounting, after people suspected Honda of doing some very clever engineering to fool the boost sensor.

#18 Jim Thurman

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 18:53

Isn't it all rather a moot point if the organization itself cheats?

I agree with the race bans, but there is no way NASCAR is ever going to do that. NASCAR is gutless on this and it's more about exposure and sponsors than justice. Remember, this is an organization that has gone out of it's way to insure sponsors not miss races (the provisionals) and get proper exposure and attention (on the latter, to the point of result tampering). Perhaps the double edged sword of increased media attention will force them to re-think their position, but I doubt it and even if it did it would be tokenism for media appeasement. And their current media partners will help them with their spin. If there had been true media scrutiny and focus on NASCAR when the dubious results occurred (mid 90's), history would be entirely different.

Wow, David...there would be a lot of open space on fields of competition :D

#19 HistoricMustang

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 22:34

Summary:

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- This wasn't the way Michael Waltrip wanted to enter the world of Nextel Cup ownership or the way Toyota wanted to enter the world of NASCAR's premier series. Daytona 500 penalties at a glance


Crew chiefs suspended:
• David Hyder (Michael Waltrip; indefinitely)
• Robbie Reiser (Matt Kenseth; 4 races)
• Kenny Francis (Kasey Kahne; 4 races)
• Jim Rocco (Scott Riggs; 2 races)
• Josh Browne (Elliott Sadler; 2 races)
Driver penalties:
• Waltrip (100 points)
• Kenseth (50 points)
• Kahne (50 points)
• Riggs (25 points)
• Sadler (25 points)


Owner penalties:
• Ray Evernham (100 owner points)
• Jack Roush (50 owner points)

Fines:
• Hyder fined $100K
• Reiser, Francis fined $50K each
• Rocco, Browne fined $25K each


Waltrip's crew chief, David Hyder, and competition director, Bobby Kennedy, were suspended indefinitely by NASCAR on Wednesday after an illegal substance was found in the engine of Waltrip's car during Sunday's qualifying for the Daytona 500. A NASCAR source confirmed Hyder will be fired.

Both were escorted out of Daytona International Speedway by NASCAR officials.

In addition, Hyder was fined $100,000.

Michael Waltrip Racing has three Toyotas attempting to qualify for Sunday's 500.

"I respect NASCAR's rules, its people and the sport's integrity, which is why I am so sad and embarrassed," Waltrip said. "I am dedicated to get to the bottom of this because I will not let the independent act of an individual or individuals tarnish the incredible accomplishment my organization has made to be where we are today."


Who should be suspended when a race team is found guilty of an infraction?
The driver
The crew chief
Both




Toyota isn't resting on an apology. Company officials are expected to send a letter out to all Toyota teams next week stating Waltrip's organization has used two of the company's three strikes. The next team that crosses the line will face the loss of the manufacturer's support.


Waltrip was docked 100 championship points and his wife, car owner Buffy, was penalized 100 owner points. That will make it difficult for Waltrip to get into the top 35 in points guaranteed a spot in events after the first five races of the season.

"During preparations for the 2007 season and especially the 2007 Daytona 500, I specifically requested that our competition teams not disrespect NASCAR, our competitors or our sponsors by blatantly circumventing the rules," Waltrip said.

"This is not the action of an organization, a manufacturer or a sponsor. This was an independent act done without consent or authorization from me or any of my executive management team."

A two-time Daytona 500 champion, Waltrip is one of three owners debuting Toyotas this weekend. He will be allowed to drive his backup car -- actually teammate David Reutimann's backup -- on Thursday in one of the two 150-mile qualifying races that determine the 500 field after the front row.

He must finish second among the 10 drivers in his race not in the top 35 in owner's points a year ago to make the 500.

"They went across the line to try to assure themselves a spot in the Daytona 500," said Robin Pemberton, NASCAR's vice president for competition.

Pemberton was emphatic this was a team issue and not a Toyota issue. While embarrassed over the incident, Toyota officials insisted they would maintain a relationship with MWR.

"This is not the way you want to enter NASCAR's Nextel Cup Series by any means," said Jim Aust, the president and CEO of Toyota Racing Development.

"For this to happen to him is extremely disappointing and extremely disappointing to Toyota. ... He has certainly apologized to just about anybody that would be associated with his organization. He's beside himself with what's happened."

Pemberton, a former crew chief, called the violation as blatant as any in recent memory.

"We were certainly insulted, for sure," he said.

NASCAR inspectors discovered an unspecified substance in the intake manifold prior to Sunday's qualifying. The team was given the opportunity to install a new manifold for qualifying and the same substance was discovered again.

The car was then impounded and the intake manifold sent to NASCAR's Research and Development Center in Concord, N.C. The entire car now will be sent to Concord for further investigation.

Pemberton would not disclose the name of the substance, which he described as clear and Vaseline-like and found in the fuel system.

"We have not seen anything like this in the past," he said. "It is certainly not something that belongs in the engine. It's not something that is common."

Hyder became the fifth crew chief suspended this week.

The crew chiefs for Kasey Kahne and Matt Kenseth on Tuesday were suspended for four races and fined $50,000, while the crew chiefs for Elliott Sadler and Scott Riggs were suspended for two races and fined $25,000.

"I think we've got people's attention now," Pemberton said.

NASCAR chairman Brian France and president Mike Helton were among those who met with Waltrip and officials from Michael Waltrip Racing early Wednesday.

The parade of people to the NASCAR hauler included Waltrip, general manager Ty Norris and several representatives from TRD.

Lee White, the senior vice president for TRD, said TRD worked with NASCAR throughout the process.

"I can honestly tell you from an ethics standpoint and integrity, along with character and honesty, those things are paramount in our company," he said. "We hold ourselves to a high standard and we hold our teams to high standards. We hope we've picked the right ones."

Waltrip was allowed to use his backup car for Wednesday's practice but never got it approved to get on the track.

Meanwhile, owners and drivers of the other four teams that were penalized spoke out for the first time.

Ray Evernham, who lost the team director for all three of his drivers -- Kahne, Sadler and Riggs -- said the suspensions were like the "death penalty for a speeding ticket."

Roush Racing's Kenseth, who lost crew chief Robbie Resier for four weeks, said comparing what was done to his car with what happened with Jimmie Johnson's car last season is like comparing "jaywalking and attempted murder."

Chad Knaus was suspended for four weeks and fined $25,000 for rigging a device to raise the rear window of Johnson's Chevrolet that eventually won the 500. There were no points deductions for the team.

Reiser and Kenny Francis, Kahne's team director, were suspended when NASCAR discovered a hole near the rear wheel well wasn't properly sealed, creating an aerodynamic advantage.

Kahne was docked 50 championship points.

Rodney Childers and Josh Browne, the car directors for Riggs and Sadler, were suspended for using what were deemed illegal bolts to hold the spoiler to the deck lid. The drivers were docked 25 championship points.

Evernham said the bolts, which had holes drilled in them, were used all last season without penalty. He said the bolts were designed to be lighter.

Pemberton said they allowed air to leak out of the trunk area to create an aerodynamic advantage.

Evernham said he would not appeal Francis' suspension because he could not prove the duct tape covering the hole wasn't cut intentionally to come off during qualifying.

He remained undecided on whether to appeal the other two suspensions.

"I don't understand why they were fine then but aren't now," Evernham said of the bolts. "They were out on the open for everyone to see. Nothing was hidden. There was no intent to circumvent the rules.

"These were pre-qualifying inspections," he said. "You present it to see if it's OK. If they penalize you for something you've already used, how do you know?"

Evernham said the rules need to be written more clearly.

"There are a lot of gray areas and a lot of questions," he said. "Basically, our guys were sent home for asking if something was OK."

Evernham also noted that there are parts in the Nextel Cup hauler from other cars that deal with air direction, but those teams haven't incurred penalties.

A NASCAR official said those parts were not deemed intentional attempts to circumvent the rules.

NASCAR spokesman Jim Hunter said penalized teams typically bring up other situations to divert attention from them.

Jack Roush said he likely won't appeal Reiser's suspension, in part because of his past failure in appeals and because if he appeals he risks not having Reiser for the first "Car of Tomorrow" race at Bristol.

Team president Geoff Smith said the organization may appeal the point penalty.

"I've got no quarrel with the suspension," Roush said. "I do have a problem with Matt and with the team and with the sponsor of giving up 50 points as we start this trek toward a championship drive."


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#20 RA Historian

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 01:42

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Nope, I am quite certain that he did indeed mean it that way.

Yes, I did.

But to move along, I am puzzled what all this discussion on 2007 racing has to do with the Nostalgia Forum?

#21 MPea3

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 01:51

Because in this opening thread Henry said "Give us some of those stories! (Like having your buddy lean on the car while it rolled over the scales)". I'd enjoy hearing some. As far as your earlier comment, I'll point out that I highly respect what you usually contribute to this forum, but for those topics which don't interest me, I'd never consider saying "who could possibly give a ...."

#22 RA Historian

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 02:03

Well, I suppose that you have a point there. It is just that I have a long and deep seated animosity towards that taxi cab series and everything about it which has many origins and that acute dislike has a way of coming out every now and then. Sorry about that.

#23 HistoricMustang

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 22:59

Originally posted by MPea3
Because in this opening thread Henry said "Give us some of those stories! (Like having your buddy lean on the car while it rolled over the scales)". I'd enjoy hearing some. As far as your earlier comment, I'll point out that I highly respect what you usually contribute to this forum, but for those topics which don't interest me, I'd never consider saying "who could possibly give a ...."


Yes, I would really like to hear some of those "things" that perhaps you or your crew did to enhance the performance of your racing vehicle.

The current NASCAR "promotion" is simply brilliant and adds to their seven decades of building the most successful sanctioning body in history which in fact does encompass nostalgia. Had the original Grand Prix system survived we would certainly be discussing it here.

Taxi Cabs, Moonshiners, Old Men, it matters not whether someone likes or dislikes the ever evolving format, it has been a very successful venture.

Henry

#24 WGD706

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 00:16

What I find strange is that the teams that didn't cheat and didn't make the field are on their way home, while those that did cheat are fined and sent to the back of the field, still able to collect points and money.

Following post-race inspection after the second Gatorade Duel at Daytona qualifying race, Jeff Gordon’s winning No. 24 DuPont Chevrolet was found to be an inch too low, prompting NASCAR to relegate Gordon to a 42nd starting position in Sunday’s Daytona 500.
NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton said he feels the action was unintentional. No fines or point deductions will be assessed, according to Pemberton. "We're sure this wasn't intentional," Pemberton said. (Then why did you move him back to 42nd?)
Despite the infraction, Gordon still goes into the record books as the winner.

NASCAR acts as if it’s trying to get tough with cheaters. It should try harder. It should hold the driver at fault, no matter what. If any member of his team does anything funny, the driver sits on Sunday — no Nextel Cup points, no purse money, nothing. That’d clean things up overnight.

The drivers, though, seem immune to real punishment. (Waltrip was docked 100 points, but even he admitted, “I can get those points back.”) After what happened with Johnson last year and the rampant misdoings of this week, NASCAR has itself a big fat image problem. Waltrip again: “This is the Daytona 500, and we’re not supposed to be talking about some fuel thing we put into the car. We’re supposed to be talking about the glory and pageantry that comes from trying to win this race.”

NASCAR has turned into professional wrestling on wheels.

#25 stevewf1

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 01:11

NASCAR is a mega-marketing machine and I believe they relish all of this "controversy".

Hey, we're talking about it and they're loving it...