35 replies to this topic

[dretceterini]

Travel ad from 12/1935 Harper Bazaar magazine:

http://new.photos.ya...tceterinidoctor (double click on the ad itself to blow it up in size)

Regular price: 2.78 lire per liter

US travelers discounted price: 1.14 to 1.60 lire per liter, depending on length of stay

That's about 6 cents a gallon!!!

The exchange rate in 1936 was about 13 lire = $1.00 US, so at that time gas was actually cheaper in Italy than in the US! Can anyone explain why gas in Europe is now double if not triple US prices?

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by dretceterini
Travel ad from 12/1935 Harper Bazaar magazine:

http://new.photos.ya...tceterinidoctor (double click on the ad itself to blow it up in size)

Regular price: 2.78 lire per liter

US travelers discounted price: 1.14 to 1.60 lire per liter, depending on length of stay

That's about 6 cents a gallon!!!

The exchange rate in 1936 was about 13 lire = $1.00 US, so at that time gas was actually cheaper in Italy than in the US! Can anyone explain why gas in Europe is now double if not triple US prices?

And now the US is burning approx 15 thousand gallons / second, what a waist........................

[Barry Boor]

Can anyone explain why gas in Europe is now double if not triple US prices?

As far as the U.K. is concerned, this question can be answered with one word - TAX!

[macoran]

In Holland we still have "het kwartje van Kok" (Kok's 25 cents) included over and above the normal taxes.This 25 cent surtax was levied in 1991 by then Finance Minister Wim Kok to even out the National Budget. At the time it was called a temporary measure, which became very un-temporary !

It was also meant to discourage private car usage, and get the Dutch to use more public transport.
It hasn't done anybody but the government much good, the roads are still crowded and the busses still get stuck in traffic jams.

N.B.......Over this past weekend half of the busses run by Arriva in the South of Holland have been grounded because of safety related defects !!!

BTW.. what are motor cars called in other countries......In Holland they are called "milkcows" a term
much akin in meaning to the English "Goose that lays a golden egg".

[D-Type]

In 1963 when visiting Italy in the back of my parents' car I vaguely recall my Dad collecting vouchers or paperwork at the frontier that gave him a tax concession on petrol purchases. This seems similar to the Harper's Bazaar ad.

As to the relative doubling of European prices -
(1) The USA produces its own oil while most of Europe doesn't and has to buy on the international market
(2) OPEC, 1975 and all that
(3) Oil prices are set internationally in US dollars. If the dollar rises against a European currency, the price goes up. Needless to say if the dollar falls it doesn't go down again
(4) Taxation - European policy generally is to tax fuel more heavily than US policy is

[Paolo]

There's all sort of taxes in Italian fuel prices, now.
Many of them were meant to last only one year ("una tantums") but of course stayed indefinitely.
One of the taxes on Italian fuel is actually meant to support our invasion of Abyssinia in the 30's...

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Barry Boor

As far as the U.K. is concerned, this question can be answered with one word - TAX!

I have seen a figure of 72% of the UK pump price going as taxes.

So on a typical 85p per litre pump price it leaves around 0.24 GBP / 0.47 USD / 0.36 EUR per litre before tax.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by D-Type
In 1963 when visiting Italy in the back of my parents' car I vaguely recall my Dad collecting vouchers or paperwork at the frontier that gave him a tax concession on petrol purchases. This seems similar to the Harper's Bazaar ad.

Quite right: tourists were allowed to buy discount coupons, but they were rationed to so many litres/day. That was enforced by entering the coupons issued on a Carte Carburante which was stamped up on entry to Italy and on exit the number of days and coupons used were compared. You had to pay extra if you hadn't been there long enough.
It was not unknown for wily tourists to get two sets of coupons and Carti Carburanti but of course only one carte was even shown and stamped up.

[macoran]

http://www.dezuinigs...belastingen.htm

Scroll down to : Overzicht Dieselaccijnen in Europa

Apparantly this dates from 2000, so it will only have gotten worse.

No wonder diesel powered cars are not popular in the UK !!

[RTH]

In the UK 3/4 (more that that actually more like 80% )of the forecourt price is tax ( that is customs&Excise duty and vat )

In round figures a gallon of petrol now costs £4 what this actually means is that there is 300% tax, at least, added to the retail price.

The pre-tax price is £ 1.00per gallon + 300% tax (= £3.00 tax ) = £4.00 per gallon

What other comodity has 300 % tax added to its price ?

................And the roads of Britain are just a mass of potholes !

It's no longer a government tax and spend, but tax and fritter away !

Actually Diesel cars have suddenly become popular with now 50% of new cars currently diesel ...........pity really because the exhaust from a 2007 petrol car when warm is harmless to health C02 and water vapour ........diesels put out PM10 particulate proven to cause lung cancer and a cocktail of other toxic gases and dusts.

[dretceterini]

Here in the US gas taxes vary from state to state, but in general run from 1/3 to 1/2 the price. Cigarette taxes also vary from state to state, and in some cases, are as much as 90% of the price.

People here (unless they are weralthy) are starting to get rid of SUVs (sports-utility vehicles) and going to hybrids and even electric vehicles. What many don't realize is that the cost of replacing the battery platform will be more than the value of the vehicle when it needs to be done.

Very few here are willing to accept the fact that if we are going to rely on gas, we need smaller, more efficient vehicles. Here, a car like a Toyota Camry is considered a small car!

[RTH]

What do you think the reaction of the people of the USA would be if overnight gas (petrol) prices were raised to our current level.......in other words $8 a gallon which is what we now pay at the pumps and the tax will go up yet further in 5 weeks time at the annual Budget !

I am not a smoker but I believe a pack of 20 are currently £5.20 that is $10 a pack !

Amazingly people here still buy the biggest Range Rovers etc which in urban use in the real world achieve 9 MPG

[dretceterini]

If prices went up than maybe the people would do something to impeach our lunatic president.

I didn't realize that cigarettes in England had gone that high! Prices range from state to state in the US, as each state imposes a tobacco tax in addition to the federal one. The additional amount is up to the sate; more in some states and almost nothing in others. I would say the average price in most of the US is about $3-$4 for a pack of 20....

[Twin Window]

Not a particularly *nostalgic* thread this, chaps (although I do, of course, remember my father ranting at the prospect of the GBP 1:00/gallon circa 1977...!)

It'll have to see its way over to PC, I'm afraid.

[David M. Kane]

In 1958 gas was .25 cents...4 gallons for a dollar...with a muscle car that might take you 40 miles.

We weren't getting any complaints from the Shah of Iran.

[RTH]

That is interesting because in the mid 50s petrol in Britain was about 2s 6d per gallon in other words 8 gallons to the £1 .......so in fact a more similar price to the US at that time . Having said that the value of the pound relative to the dollar has probably halved in 50 years as well !

Just shows the spectacular financial mismanagement of the British economy in the past 5 decades !

[Vitesse2]

In 1955 a US dollar was worth about 7s 2d. So, roughly three to the pound, as opposed to two today.

[Sharman]

Circa 1960 I could get 6 gallons of petrol and have enough change from a quid to have a couple of pints of bitter!

[ian senior]

And I used to live in a shoebox in t'middle o't road...... well it is going a bit that way, isn't it?

[RTH]

Originally posted by ian senior
And I used to live in a shoebox in t'middle o't road...... well it is going a bit that way, isn't it?

................But you try telling that to the young people of today...........and will they believe you?.....no !

[Sharman]

Now let me tell you young people..........

[David M. Kane]

RTH:

Leave it to Monty to say it. Basically, it's all about money and too much politics. In 1958 a NFL player made $10,000 US now he makes $1M US, some of that is inflation. Now that I think about what is "inflation" where did it come from? While I am at it, where did cost of living come from?
In 1958 a new Ferrari cost $16,000 US, now one is $225,000 US.

All I can say is we let it happen. At some point we need another revolution, some will say it's already started...

[Collombin]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
In 1958 a NFL player made $10,000 US now he makes $1M US

If he can play at the top level for 49 years, I'd say he's worth every cent. What's his name?

[David M. Kane]

A comparable player WOULD now make $1M US...ok? Get a friggin' life!

[RTH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David M. Kane


All I can say is we let it happen. At some point we need another revolution, some will say it's already started... [/QUOTE

I think you are right David, the excesses of the West will melt away as the balance of economic power shifts to the Far East

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by RTH
That is interesting because in the mid 50s petrol in Britain was about 2s 6d per gallon in other words 8 gallons to the £1 .......so in fact a more similar price to the US at that time . Having said that the value of the pound relative to the dollar has probably halved in 50 years as well !

Just shows the spectacular financial mismanagement of the British economy in the past 5 decades !

And yet standards of living and consumption have gone through the roof in that time. The average person in the UK is far better off in 2007 than was the case in the 1950s, despite apparent mismanagement by successive governments.

[dretceterini]

I don't know if that is the case here in the US, as I was just a child in the 1950s. I can say, however, that our priorites have changed....like spending billions of what is nothing more than a civil war in the middle east....

[RTH]

Mike,

True, but it is not all paid for , UK personal debt is at staggering levels of £1.2 Trillion average house prices are 7 times average annual earnings People are taking out 50 and 60 year mortgages. The accumulated national debt owed by the government accrued in overspending stands ar half a trillion pounds costing the British taxpayer £28BN a year in interest charges for which they receive no goods or services at all. Inflation and interest rates are rising. There will be some very harsh measures ahead to reverse these financial dangers.

[T54]

I think that this whole thread should go to the thrash immediately...
I thought that we were discussing the politics of older racing cars here, am I mistaking?

[Todd]

Originally posted by dretceterini
If prices went up than maybe the people would do something to impeach our lunatic president.

So you're saying he should raise energy taxes like the lefties you admire so that we'll get rid of him? There are some huge holes in your ability to reason, which explains your politics.

How many electric cars do you see on the roads? Even Hybrids are still just niche players, and once enough people realize the real costs of ownership it will be interesting to see if their market share continues to grow.

[David M. Kane]

The topic is Italian fuel prices...and yes in many ways life was better in the '50s and '60s and in other ways it is better now. I think I would have like the '50s in Italy, and my drive of choice would be a Lancia Aurelia with a full tank of Aqip at any price...Maybe a nice Italian mistress to cook and change my plugs.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Todd


So you're saying he should raise energy taxes like the lefties you admire so that we'll get rid of him? There are some huge holes in your ability to reason, which explains your politics.

How many electric cars do you see on the roads? Even Hybrids are still just niche players, and once enough people realize the real costs of ownership it will be interesting to see if their market share continues to grow.

I'm FAR from being a leftie! It should be patently obvious that our intervention in the middle east is costing the people of this country and only benifiting Bush and his cronies. We have spent nearly a half-TRILLION dollars on this insanity, and what has it gotten the average citizen?

Back to the original subject.....I can't see any major reason why European gas prices are at least double that of the US, when circa 1936, they were almost identical...

[David M. Kane]

WW II? The spoils of war? Italian trade unions?

I didn't know that in 1936 they were almost equal.

[D-Type]

Could Italy's ready access to oil from Libya figure somewhere in the equation?

I believe Libya was an Italian colony at the time hence the running of the 1939 Mille Miglia there and the 1.5 litre limit on the Tripoli GP as it was being run on "Italian soil"

[antonvrs]

David M. Kane wrote:
"A comparable player WOULD now make $1M US...ok? Get a friggin' life!


__________________
Cosworth

Maybe you should tune up your sense of humor.......

Anton

[David M. Kane]

Sorry, but I didn't think he was trying to be funny...if so please accept my apology.

The population of the US in 1936 was 128,053,180, in 2006 it was 299,398,484. What that means I don't have a clue!

I do, however appreciate what the IRL is trying to do with fuel; and hopefully F1 efforts will pay off too. I particularly find it interesting what Abu Dubai is doing with their $175B USD Development Program. I wish the U.S. and Europe had a development plan, if either has one I haven't seen it.
At least Dubai is trying to see past the Oil days.