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'Ghost' drivers


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#1 mario donnini

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 09:44

Some years ago I've spoken with Brian Redman and he told me that he has a win "uncredited" at the Daytona 24 hours (I don't remember the year, but I can check) , 'cause - after retiring his Porsche 917 -, he did a unscheduled "ghost" stint in the winning 917. Very similar to the story of Hugus in the Le Mans 24 hours in which Rindt-Gregory were winners. More: in the Michel Vaillant dossier about Steve McQueen there is the rumor that during the night of the Le Mans 24 hours 1970 the movie-star did a "ghost" stint in his (by Solar) Porsche 908.
So, do you know some other strange situation similar to these? More: do you know if these was also a "ghost stint" during other races or a F1 Gp or qualificationsession?



PS Three yaers ago in my village in the middle of Italy (Umbria) an old friend of my father told me a strange story. Half a century ago he and three other friends did a little trip to see the 1000 Miglia. The car - an old Fiat 1100 - was owned from a taxi driver. At a certain moment, when they were listening the radio and very close, they became more and more excited and had a very crazy idea. They painted fake numbers in the car put off the exhaust and - ten minuts before the first car was announced in Senigalla -, they were in race, a little bit in front of the real first car on the road! In the city an incredible number of "tifosi" gave greetings to them (two of them were hiding themselves in the back seats) and for three or four kms they had the best and the only race of their life. So, when they reached the countryside, in front of a nice farm they did a simulation of a retirement, so the farmer let them go in the house and eat and drink a lot, 'cause he was so proud to have in his kitchen some heroic 1000 miglia drivers...

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 09:59

We have this story:

http://forums.autosp...&postid=1601851

#3 mario donnini

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 10:18

Thanks, Ray.
If someone has something to add, this should be a good chance to do it...

#4 mario donnini

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 12:19

Ray, I've read the link that you kindly suggested, but, if I have understand correctly, it is about races fixed or collusion between drivers and organizers. My question is a little bit different: that is to say, is about unknown driver who did the race as a clandestine, a "pirate", or, simply, a officially "unknown" driver, like Hugus at Le Mans.

#5 Stephen W

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 12:22

At one stage anyone who drove a car in a Long Distance event was credited with a share of the win. The powers that be decided that there should be a minimum distance that a driver should be in the car for him to get a share of the win. Therefore if like Brian Redman you were kicking your heels then the team manager could put you in anotehr car to boost its chances in the race.

In some instances drivers would switch cars after their first stint if their original car developed a problem. This happened in the 1973 Spa 1000 Kms when Mike Hailwood, who was driving in the Gulf-Mirage Team, switched over to the Derek Bell car when his car hit trouble. Vern Schuppan and Howden Ganley then took on the remaining driving duties in the Hailwood Mirage. Hailwood & Bell brought their car home in First place as the Ferraris and Matras hit trouble. Meanwhile Schuppan and Ganley trailed home two laps in arrears but finished in second place. Thus Hailwood came First & Second!

:wave:

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 12:27

Originally posted by Stephen W
Thus Hailwood came First & Second!

Ah - but he had co-drivers
Ivanowski didn't when he finished first and third in the 1929 Irish Grand Prix :cool:

#7 E.B.

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 13:41

It's happened in the Indy 500 on several occasions of course.

We don't hear too much about co-winners Cyrus Patschke (1911), Don Herr (1912), Howdy Wilcox (1923 - became the first 2 time winner at the same time as Tommy Milton :p ), Norman Batten (1925), and maybe others I've forgotten, seemingly because if a co-driver gave the car back to the original driver then he didn't get credited.

On the other hand, if, as in 1941, you potter along in about 12th place and get brought in to hand over to a faster driver who makes up all the deficit and goes on to win, you get 50% of the credit.

Always struck me as a bit unfair, that.

What would have happened if a driver had got relieved on lap 2 because he was feeling sick, and then got back in the car on lap 199 and won the race?

#8 Stephen W

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 14:53

Originally posted by David McKinney

Ah - but he had co-drivers
Ivanowski didn't when he finished first and third in the 1929 Irish Grand Prix :cool:


That's all well and good but it was still only a First and Thurd! :rolleyes:

#9 mario donnini

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 14:53

I don't know the story about Ivanowski... Please, can I have some explanation?

So, there are also clandestine driver in F.1 (not allowed starters), as Schenken in a Usa Gp with Lotus, Ertl in (French Gp?) 1976 with Hesketh, Heyer in Germany 1977 with Ats. But these situations obviously are not mistery.

Other situation like Hugus at Le Mans with Gregory-Rindt?

For example, the story of Targa Florio is full of driver with a "nom de plume"... May be under a fake name is possible also to find some interesting drivers that - for some reasons - want to hide themselves. Or not...?

Other question: in F.1 history is possible to find a fast driver who gave an help to his collegue wearing his helmet to set a time-lap to be in the starting grid, during a very "hot" qualification session?

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 18:41

I think that's been mentioned in relation to the 1956 French GP...

I can tell you that it happened in practice for the 1968 Bathurst race, when the Scuderia Veloce driver Bill Brown put on the armband of Paul Hawkins, and his helmet, and went out to qualify his car at a better speed.

#11 giacomo

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 18:55

Originally posted by mario donnini
Other question: in F.1 history is possible to find a fast driver who gave an help to his collegue wearing his helmet to set a time-lap to be in the starting grid, during a very "hot" qualification session?

Such a situation was reported back in 1984 between Lauda and Prost at McLaren. But IIRC it wasn't qualy but Sunday warm up.

And didn't Bernie Ecclestone ask a faster driver to qualify his car back in Monaco 1958?

#12 Rob Ryder

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 19:30

Originally posted by mario donnini

Other question: in F.1 history is possible to find a fast driver who gave an help to his collegue wearing his helmet to set a time-lap to be in the starting grid, during a very "hot" qualification session?

Didn't Pedro Rodriguez go out in practice for the 1969 Italian GP wearin Tino Brambilla's overalls and helmet? I'm sure the full details are in a previous TNF thread.
Rob

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 19:56

Originally posted by giacomo
And didn't Bernie Ecclestone ask a faster driver to qualify his car back in Monaco 1958?

Was he entered?
I think it was more the case of the car owner having a couple of laps in one of his drivers' cars

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 22:27

Originally posted by mario donnini
I don't know the story about Ivanowski... Please, can I have some explanation?

The Irish Grand Prix was determined by combining the results of two handicap races - the Saorstat Cup for cars under 1500cc and the Eireann Cup for cars of unlimited capacity. Ivanowski won both races, the under 1500 event at 75.02mph in an Alfa Romeo 6C-1500 and the unlimited event at 76.40mph in a 6C-1750.

I don't have the handicap lists, but as Ivanowski was up against cars like Kidston's Speed Six Bentley and Tim Birkin's 4.5 litre Bentley, he must have exceeded his handicap speed by a greater amount than those bigger cars. The result was (I think) determined by the percentage of handicap speed, so he must have been ahead of the game in the Saorstat Cup as well, as his speed was good enough to give him third place in the overall result.

Apparently FW Stiles, his entrant, had great difficulty explaining to Boris how he'd come first and third .... I just hope I've managed to explain it to you!

This essay might help .... or not!

http://handicap-raci...e.orange.co.uk/

#15 FLB

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 22:29

Supposedly, the ACR was twice qualified by Patrick Gaillard for the 1980 Le Mans 24 Hours. One of his co-drivers was too slow, but all drivers had to qualify the car. Ian Bracey, whose IBEC didn't make the show, was very mighily cross, but the ACO officials said they hadn't seen anything...

#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 22:42

Originally posted by FLB
Supposedly, the ACR was twice qualified by Patrick Gaillard for the 1980 Le Mans 24 Hours. One of his co-drivers was too slow, but all drivers had to qualify the car. Ian Bracey, whose IBEC didn't make the show, was very mighily cross, but the ACO officials said they hadn't seen anything...

Well, there's a surprise :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#17 D-Type

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 22:54

Husche von Hanstein is often credited with winning the 1956 Targa Florio. Originally the race was to be 8 laps long with one driver and Umberto Maglioli was entered in a Porsche Spyder. Then they extended the race to 10 laps and a second nominated driver was necessary. So, von Hanstein who was Porsche team manager nominated himself as second driver. Come the race, Maglioli went into the lead and stayed there. When it came to the pit stop to change drivers, von Hanstein decided Maglioli was fresh enough to continue and was lapping faster than he could so he elected not to take over the wheel and Maglioli drove the race solo as did second placed man, taruffi in a Maserati.

So, here we have the opposite case - a drive that never was going into the record books.

#18 Twin Window

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 00:20

Originally posted by Rob Ryder

Didn't Pedro Rodriguez go out in practice for the 1969 Italian GP wearin Tino Brambilla's overalls and helmet? I'm sure the full details are in a previous TNF thread.

Here it is!

:up:

#19 ensign14

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:09

I'm sure that somewhere in the Fielden magnum opus there is a tale of an unknown who stepped into a stock car mid-race when the driver came in for refreshment, lapped at competitive speeds, came back in, got out and escaped without anyone ever finding out who he was...or did I dream it?

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#20 mario donnini

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:23

Dear Vitesse2, thank you very much for the story.

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 11:44

Going back a bit further:
In September 1921 Niccolini was leading the picturesquely-named "Gran Premio Gentlemen" at Brescia when his Indianapolis Fiat caught fire during a refuelling stop. The driver received burns on his arm and hand but his mechanic leapt into the cockpit and rejoined the race, before being flagged in by the course officials when they realised what was going on.
But before he stopped this unknown man, having never driven on the circuit before, recorded the fastest lap of the race, 23 seconds faster than Masetti managed with his GP Mercedes :eek:

#22 mario donnini

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 09:00

During the Sixties, the team Vds-van der Straten contested a very strange saloon race. That was a sprint race, not an endurance one.
The team had two Alfa Romeo in the race. One broke, so the driver was waiting alongside the track the end of the competition. The other was in the lead.
There was a misunderstandig with the box and the driver in the lead thought that the race was finished one lap before the reality.
So he was thinking to do the parade lap, instead of he was doing the real last lap. He met his team mate retired and told to him to enter in the car. So, at the and of the day, the flag marshal in the finish line was very surprised to give the chequered flag - in a sprint race - to a car with two driver in it, with the retired one that became also an... ex aequo winner.