62 replies to this topic

[Stan Patterson]

I am looking for information and assistance in relation to an open wheel racing car I have owned for the past 5 years.

The car is a replica of a late 1968/69 Brabham. - see picture

I am not expert in BT numbers, but the car's body is identical to the beautiful Brabham that Bib Stillwell raced in historic racing in his latter years.

The history, as related to me, from the previous owner, is as follows:

A RAAF aeronautical engineer in NSW constructed 2 cars, commencing in 1968, based on the Brabhams of the period. - hence the name Orion ala RAAF aircraft.

I am not sure about the chassis, but whoever made the fibreglass body, must have had access to a Brabham, as the moulds are visually correct.

The cars were not completed until 1972 and my car was raced first with a 1400cc Renault and then with a crossflow Ford 1500cc.

The car is now fitted with a 1400cc Renault engine which I have rebuilt, but the car still has evidence of the Ford's engine mountings and it came with a beautiful extractor/exhaust for a crossflow Ford.

The gearbox/transaxle is an up-turned 4 speed Renault R 10 (?)

Front uprights, in the best tradition, are Triumph Herald, with what I am told, are Renault, floating caliper brakes. The rear has rather agricultural fabricated uprights with what, I am advised, are Mini Cooper S brakes.

The logbook shows the car raced at Amaroo in 1972 but was never, (hardly ever), raced thereafter.

The CMS, C of D which i obtained, unfortunately classifies the car a Group Pand Q which means. although it is, in intent appearance and feel M and O, it must compete against the F5000's and Atlantics.


I would appreciate any advice, information, stories etc about my car as i intend to carry out a rolling restoration.



Stan Patterson
Old Aussie Grump

[David McKinney]

Sorry Stan
Got tired of waiting for the picture to come up
Please go back to using thumbnails

[Stan Patterson]

Sorry david,

Still struggling with the pic bit





Stan

[sterling49]

Lovely car Stan, any pictures nose on? Looks a bit like a BT18/21 but the tub looks a bit wider


I can see you will be having some fun!

[Stan Patterson]

I hope this helps


Off to the 'island



Stan

[sterling49]

Not really Stan, wanted to see the Nose cone.....Jag looks nice, one of Coventry's best, with the symbol on the bonnet.....I used to drive one for my company in that colour......with the V12 engine.....at aged 18


Sterling

[Stan Patterson]

Try this,



Stan

[275 GTB-4]

Looks good Stan...do you have a name for the RAAfie chappie??? I might be able to assist in locating said gent

(BTW if you want to get rid of those agricultural old 7 1/2 inch Cooper S rear disks...oil take em off yer hands )

[sterling49]

It looks great Stan, I would stick to my BT18/21 guess, but I would be the 1st to admit that I am no expert, I am sure we will get an accurate I.D. before too long from TNF!


BTW, it looks so period without the clutter of Trade stickers

[Stan Patterson]

Well 275GTB

I am told he is/was a very grumpy old gentleman who doesnt suffer fools gladly....which excludes me.

The previous owner tried contact but was shown the door ...so to speak

I have no idea of his name..and worst of all, I have no idea where the sister car is..grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

WHERE IS RAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

Stan

[Stan Patterson]

Sorry Sterling,

The colour is Lavender,,very Maggie Smith and Judy Dench..


Still a lovely lovely car and a brilliant tow car

Stan

[Ray Bell]

Right here... wondering why you don't resize your pic to an appropriate dimension so we don't have to scroll across and back all the time to read your post!

I'm thinking a couple of names... Bob Vickers is one of them, though his car wasn't called by that name. I don't have programmes for the period, and the car will obviously not figure in race reports to the extent that both name of car and driver will be mentioned very often.

If anyone can give me a name I will undoubtedly remember it. But in the meantime, Stan, can you go back and edit your first post and either put the pic in at a reasonable size or delete it?

If you don't know how to resize pics, using www.tinypic.com will ensure that the pic as posted will be smaller, while anyone wanting to see it larger needs only click on it to do so. I think.

I've got to say, I remember those colours. Was that the colour scheme it had at Amaroo?

People who would know the car for sure would be Brian Morrow, Ian Cook, John Crouchley, Errol Richardson, Chris Farrell and perhaps Paul Hamilton.

[sterling49]

Love the special "sidedraught" economy kit, courtesy of Mr Weber or Dellorto?

Bet they could suck the lead out of a pencil Stan! Do I spy the modern day and mandatory silencer as well?

Sometimes when Brands Hatch is being used now I do not even hear the cars lapping, in days gone by, I could hear every gearchange of say, a DFV or the wailing Matra ;)

[Ray Bell]

Stan, those pics are way too big... you can't see them all in one piece...

Here they are reduced, please delete the pics as you have them posted.

[john medley]

The name you seek is Gordon Glynn

I last saw him when Frank Cuttell and I went and bought the Nota Din off him early 1973 so that Frank could spill that car off the entry to The Cutting and down the slope Easter Bathurst 1973 never to race it again.

The Orion stood alongside the Nota Din, a great contrast. I seem to recall it was painted that pattern, but the black was dark green

[Stan Patterson]

Thank you very much John,

Do you know if Mr Glynn is still around?
Did you have any idea what part of Sydney he was from?
Did you actually see the car in action?
What was it powered by at the time?
Who actually drove the car?

Sorry for the cross-examination, but obviously, I am very anxious to find out anything and everything about the car.


Stan Patterson
(Ray, if i knew how to edit/delete a posting , I would do so)

[john medley]

It had the Renault then I think, not outstandingly quick. Gordon Glynn drove it so a programme search seems in order

I think we collected the Nota Din from an address in Baulkham Hills 30+ years ago(!!).White pages shows a G Glynn at 11 Dunkeld Ave BH phone 02 9624 6875. Try it today? Good luck

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
(Ray, if i knew how to edit/delete a posting , I would do so)

Stan, at the bottom right of your post you find a line that mentions 'delete/edit post... click on that...

Do not then hit the 'delete now' button... just go down into the wording of your post and wipe out the photo details and it will no longer be there when you click on the 'save changes' button.


John... if I remember correctly, that great oversize rollover bar was a real standout when Gordon Glynn was racing the car.

Oh, and no way would it have been a 1400 at the time. And the car Bob Vickers had was called the Squire... don't know if it's related or not, but I seem to recall something about the brakes.

[Paul Hamilton]

This car looks to be much tidier than the Bob Vickers' Squire and, although I have no memory of it in Gordon Glynn's hands it is painted in similar colours to others he ran (he also had an Elfin 600 at one time). Gordon gave motorsport away many years ago and the last I saw of him was in a hanger out at Bankstown airport. He had a very strong aviation interest and was part owner of an ex RAAF Lockheed Neptune which was under restoration. I beleive that more recently he has been involved in the avaiation historical group which run the museum down at Albion Park south of Wollongong. If you do manage to contact him be careful as he can be rather prickly

[Ray Bell]

Are you saying it's the same car, Paul. Or are you, like me, unsure even if it was the same?

Bob Vickers' car was crashed badly at Lakeside by Jenny Parker October 8, 1972. If you recall, she was working at RCN at the time and had only just formed the beginnings of her relationship with Mike Gore.

She went to Lakeside intent on racing the car and also to lapscore the races and gather information for the race report because Des White was overseas. Once she crashed the car the lapscoring and information gathering came to an end, so it was a truncated report we published on that meeting.



After that meeting, Mike Gore assisted in putting the car back together. Whether that was by physically straightening the bent tubes with his feet and teeth, or if he simply paid for the work, I don't know.

[Paul Hamilton]

What I am saying, Ray, is that I don't think this is the Squire which was pretty rough and ready and, as I recall it, was fitted with BT30/36 style bodywork rather than the earlier Babham panels which are now on the Orion.

John Medley's comment places this car with Gordon Glynn early in 1973 and I beleive that the Squire was still around in other hands at that time. The RCN extract you posted is undated but may well confirm that.

Stan's understanding that the ex RAAF constructor of the car was a 'very grumpy and intolerant old gent' certainly fits with my memory of Gordon Glynn and, given his known strong aeronautical connections I would suggest that Gordon or one of his mates is most likely to have built the car. The best way to contact Gordon may be through HARS (Historical Aircraft Restoration Society) as the last time I looked at their website the Neptune he part owned was one of two still flying with the Association from their museum down at Albion Park.

[Stan Patterson]

Thank you gentlemen for your information,

I have some egg on my face because, if I had been bright enough, less senileand perhaps if it had not been Saturday evening , I would have checked on my CAMS Certificate of Description before stating that I did not know the name of the original constructor.

And yes, Gordon Glynn was the original owner.

However, it has been most gratifying to hear what others know about the car and I would dearly love to hear about anything relating to the car. It was 1100cc when I bought it but i cracked the block at Calder and was forced to replace it with a 1400cc engine.....shhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I have not contacted Mr Glynn at this point because, as his reputation precedes him, that exercise may have to wait for a Saturday evening ..if you follow my logic.

I have included some more pics which show the car as it was at the time of purchase..I have since rebuilt the supsension, engine and have fitted new slicks.

[URL=http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=codme3.jpg][IMG]http://img96.imageshack

Stan Patterson

[john medley]

Nothing to do with the topic nor the Orion, but isnt/wasnt the red/black car that Jacob Stecher raced in Qld Historics perhaps 10 years ago the resurrected Squire?

[Stan Patterson]

grrr

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Hamilton
What I am saying, Ray, is that I don't think this is the Squire which was pretty rough and ready and, as I recall it, was fitted with BT30/36 style bodywork rather than the earlier Babham panels which are now on the Orion.

John Medley's comment places this car with Gordon Glynn early in 1973 and I beleive that the Squire was still around in other hands at that time. The RCN extract you posted is undated but may well confirm that.....

My original thought was that the Squire may have been the second car Stan mentioned... not the car in question...

The RCN extract is dated.

[BT 35-8]

The Squire was owned by my brother and self early 1980's .

Car was correctly called Squire CV3 [ Cook / Vickers] and was built up from an unused Mildren BN3 [ BT23 style ] Rennmax chassis , MK 5 Hewland and Fiat 1300cc eng.
We found it at Rockdale [ Sydney] pulled apart and the frame sitting on some laundry tubs.
Put it all back together with the BT36 body panels , however it also came with a March sports car style nose as well.
We sold it to a Sydney radio announcer , name escapes me, who sold it to Bernie Lemeister , it ended up in Qld , thence to Jacob Stecher , still has it last I heard.

We purchased it from a chap who was involved in fibreglass repairs over Padstow area, who was the person that pulled it apart.

Britto checked out the frame for us , and I can still remember him saying '' it's spot on , I can't build them any better''.

Bryan Miller.

[Stan Patterson]

I was told Mr Glynn built two Orions virtually side by side...

I am vitally interested in finding out any information about both cars particulary in relation to design plans, various parts used, the source of body moulds etc and most of all, any period photographs of the car.

The logbook shows only two previous owners, the man I bought it from, who was a very nice gentlemanly farmer and who told me all he knew but which wasn't very much, because of the reasons already alluded to and Mr Gordon Glynn...........

Any further snippets, leads etc will be most gratefully received.

Stan Patterson

[Robert Bailey]

OHOS

[JBE]

Don't all you men answer at once but ... why do the tyres have those plastic bag things on them?
I have to ask ... it must be a man thing ... this is a female question.

[Ray Bell]

To protect them from a couple of things...

From oil and grease that might be on the floor or be spilled on them... and from sunlight and other deteriorating forces.

They're expensive things, these race tyres, especially for older cars like this that might be in gestation for years at a time.

I noticed that some of the cars shipped here for the Tasman Revival meeting had the same treatment for their journey:



Photo courtesy of Paul Hamilton, of course.

[JBE]

Yes that makes sense Ray with the cost of the tyres.

My brother used to sleep with his motorbike next to the bed (on the carpet) so I guess there's an analogy there ... somewhere.

Thanks for the explanation and I notice in your photo the guy pushing the car is wearing gloves!

[Ray Bell]

Maybe he has eczema?

Gail, if you keep posting this sort of stuff late at night like this, people will begin to think that you're suffering from insomnia...

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Maybe he has eczema?

Gail, if you keep posting this sort of stuff late at night like this, people will begin to think that you're suffering from insomnia...

Pay no mind to RB Gail....only one fella has glu-vays on in that shot anyway

What I would appreciate from you, as I feel a lot of others would also, is the odd snippett about Sir Jack.

No doubt he will be floating around at the Melbourne F1GP....but anywhere else?? Phillip Island??

Cheers, Mick

[JBE]

Mick,

Sir Jack is still a hard man to catch! I try to post his upcoming appearances under "News" on the site. BTW there is a really neat old video of him in 1953 at Mt Druitt on the site.

.... and back to the thread. It is really interesting to see everyone's knowledge of Stan's (Mr Aussie Grump?) car; restoration is a labour of love indeed and I hope it goes well.

[Quixotic]

Wow it has been a long time since this thread was replied to. I found an Ad for a Orion Brabham BT31 Replica. It sounds like Stans car except that it is damaged in the rear.

Lovely looking thing

http://www.vhrr.com/...-Newsletter.pdf

This is the sort of car I'd love to own...... Sigh........

Oh well...... Back to building my new Vee.

Regards,

John Swensen

[Ray Bell]

I don't think that's *like* Stan's car at all...

See if you can figure that out.

[GeoffR]

a crossflow Ford 1500cc

Was there such an engine? I can only recall 1600cc cross flow engines.

I did have an Escort at one stage but can't remember whether the 1300 engine was crossflow or not. It did end up with a crossflow engine in it but it was a bit bigger then 1300cc!!

[Quixotic]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I don't think that's *like* Stan's car at all...

See if you can figure that out.

Sorry, I'm too ignorant to work it out.

John

[Lee Nicolle]

Crossflows came as 1300 and 1600 in cortinas and Escorts in Oz, Possibly a 1100 in Escorts too early.
Mk 1 Cortinas had 1200 and 1500 non crossflow engines plus there was I think 1 litre, 1100 and 1300 in various Anglias.

[Ray Bell]

Anglias were 997cc... that was all in Australia...

Mk 1 Cortinas were 1200cc and 1500cc, 1967 Mk 2s were also. Mk 2s went to 1300 and 1600cc crossflows in 1968. I can't recall for sure what sizes the Escorts came in, but they were all crossflows.

Quixotic... you should be able to suss that out!

[LOLE]

Kurt Ahrens during the 1966 German GP in his Brabham BT18...

[Lee Nicolle]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Anglias were 997cc... that was all in Australia...

Mk 1 Cortinas were 1200cc and 1500cc, 1967 Mk 2s were also. Mk 2s went to 1300 and 1600cc crossflows in 1968. I can't recall for sure what sizes the Escorts came in, but they were all crossflows.

Quixotic... you should be able to suss that out!

agreed Ray, the UK models had more engines inc the 1300 'Super Anglia' like John Bassett raced in GpN

[Brian Lear]

Stan
I am certain the "other" car you are looking for was called a Brabham Amatol mkIV. It was raced and hillclimbed
by brothers David and Richard Cornell in Sydney in the early 1970's. They were members of the Renault Car
Club and the car appeared initially with a Renault 845cc engine and gearbox. A 1098cc engine was fitted
around 1973. I recall visiting the Cornell brothers about this time and know there was a connection with Gordon Glynn.
Please check your PM

Brian Lear

[Quixotic]

Is the Orion out racing?

Just interested.....


John

[Quixotic]

Still have not seen this car in the results anywhere.

I saw it advertised again in the HSRCA newsletter back in September, but I do not know if it sold. The price is very reasonable. The only problem with this car that I can see is as it is a BT31?????, (the body work looks earlier), Replica, it is spiritually a Group M or a Group O car, it has to run as a group Q, (against Ralt RT4s and the like). This means that it is sadly uncompetitive.......

A pity,

I love this car.

[TedSmith]

I know that there were two, but perhaps three cars built at the same time. All were based on the BT23, circa 1968. Orion was built by Gordon Glynn, the Brabham Amatol MkIV was built by Richard Cornell, a fellow Qantas engineer, and I believe that Bill Hintie built the third.

I purchased Richards car in 1981 and raced it for 2 years before selling it. The car was 5th outright and 2nd in class in the 1982 NSW Hillclimb C/ship. It subsequently changed hands several times and was pulled apart for the engine and g/b to go to various cars. Someone in Geelong had the bare chassis some years ago but I have heard nothing of it since. If it is found, I have detailed photos of all the mechanical layout as it was in 1983, which would help reconstruction. In 1982 it had a Ford Kent 1300 engine, Hewland Mk8 box, 4 spot ventilated fronts on Fiat uprights and Fiat 2 spot rear discs on bespoke Mini based uprights. The original engine was an 850 Renault, for F3 at the time. There are a couple of detail marks on the chassis that should allow me to positively identify it should it surface. I can drop a few photos if anyone is interested.

 

   Ted Smith        KRISTED@bigpond.com

[275 GTB-4]

I know that there were two, but perhaps three cars built at the same time. All were based on the BT23, circa 1968. Orion was built by Gordon Glynn, the Brabham Amatol MkIV was built by Richard Cornell, a fellow Qantas engineer, and I believe that Bill Hintie built the third.
I purchased Richards car in 1981 and raced it for 2 years before selling it. The car was 5th outright and 2nd in class in the 1982 NSW Hillclimb C/ship. It subsequently changed hands several times and was pulled apart for the engine and g/b to go to various cars. Someone in Geelong had the bare chassis some years ago but I have heard nothing of it since. If it is found, I have detailed photos of all the mechanical layout as it was in 1983, which would help reconstruction. In 1982 it had a Ford Kent 1300 engine, Hewland Mk8 box, 4 spot ventilated fronts on Fiat uprights and Fiat 2 spot rear discs on bespoke Mini based uprights. The original engine was an 850 Renault, for F3 at the time. There are a couple of detail marks on the chassis that should allow me to positively identify it should it surface. I can drop a few photos if anyone is interested.
 
   Ted Smith        KRISTED@bigpond.com

Those were the days Ted! .....Welcome! Mick

[275 GTB-4]

Wow it has been a long time since this thread was replied to. I found an Ad for a Orion Brabham BT31 Replica. It sounds like Stans car except that it is damaged in the rear.

Lovely looking thing

http://www.vhrr.com/...-Newsletter.pdf

This is the sort of car I'd love to own...... Sigh........

Oh well...... Back to building my new Vee.

Regards,

John Swensen

the other thread...

http://forums.autosp...sale/?hl=+orion

[TedSmith]

 I am surprised at that photo as it seems identical to one I took. That was at Silverdale Hillclimb and the driver was Bruce Ridge, another Qantas collegue.  We were both driving that day.  I see a different approach to the roll hoop compared to the Orion and my gear lever is on the right.

I’m so sorry I sold the car as it was later traded in at Capitol Motors, Auburn, sold to some guys over the road who raced F Ford and then who knows. I was told the engine went into a Clubman and the gearbox into an Elfin Mono. If the chassis does surface, I can identify some nicks in one of the chassis rails caused by #2 rod leaving the block at 7000rpm taking the camshaft, sump and the water galleries of the block with it, much to the annoyance of all those who spin on the water and oil or punctured their tyres on the metal! After the race, I toured the other pit garages with the top half of the #2 rod, which I found hanging out of the hole in the side of the block, by way of explanation and apology! Years later I could still see the burnt grass on the outside of the track approaching Suttons at Oran Park, from the dumping of so much hot oil and water . I would love to sent a couple of photos but have absolutely no idea how to do that! Not even my computer savvy wife could work it out!

[275 GTB-4]

I am surprised at that photo as it seems identical to one I took. That was at Silverdale Hillclimb and the driver was Bruce Ridge, another Qantas collegue.  We were both driving that day.  I see a different approach to the roll hoop compared to the Orion and my gear lever is on the right.
I’m so sorry I sold the car as it was later traded in at Capitol Motors, Auburn, sold to some guys over the road who raced F Ford and then who knows. I was told the engine went into a Clubman and the gearbox into an Elfin Mono. If the chassis does surface, I can identify some nicks in one of the chassis rails caused by #2 rod leaving the block at 7000rpm taking the camshaft, sump and the water galleries of the block with it, much to the annoyance of all those who spin on the water and oil or punctured their tyres on the metal! After the race, I toured the other pit garages with the top half of the #2 rod, which I found hanging out of the hole in the side of the block, by way of explanation and apology! Years later I could still see the burnt grass on the outside of the track approaching Suttons at Oran Park, from the dumping of so much hot oil and water . I would love to sent a couple of photos but have absolutely no idea how to do that! Not even my computer savvy wife could work it out!

I'm not surprised seeing as how I was probably standing beside you!



OK thanks, after all these years I had forgotten you were sharing the car at Silverdale that day...I have another sans balaclava which is probably you.

Without mentioning my last name in this place, see if you can fossick around in that head of yours for the fella who lived in the same block of flats and who you recently took for a blast in a dak-dak powered red sports car!  Mick

 

PS email your pics to me and I will post em, also happy to guide you through the gobbledygook that is posting....CHEERS, MICK

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 28 May 2014 - 10:25.