10099 replies to this topic

[Dick Willis]

As you said John, "Pity the poor historian" so don't feel bad about your Bathurst book, it is a wonderful piece of work for which you should VERY highly commended. If you have neglected to mention a few cars which were probably late entries and not included in the programme don't feel disappointed as the balance of the book must be 99.9% correct and no matter how much research you put into these things when they appear in print there will always be some clever people who will say " I could have told you that "

[David Shaw]

Tyre marks seem to match up on the last 2 photos, so unlikely they were different meetings.

[cooper997]

In my opinion, Easter 1955 for the top pic, because I think that shows John Ralston's MG Special leading Reg Hunt's first Maserati , and that Maserati ran only Easter 1955. Jim Johnson's hard driven MGTC is the other.

Do we agree that all the pics were taken at the same meeting? If that is so, then ...More research needed!

John,

It's possible you're on to something with Ellis' friend's photos being from the Bathurst Easter 1955 meeting. All seem to have a similar amount of sunlight/weather conditions and track condition which would suggest the same meeting. Many of the cars currently mentioned appear in my race programme for this meeting and those that weren't printed have been diligently handwritten by the programme's original owner. An example being Reg Hunt, he isn't listed in the official entry list, but he's hand written into the '100' lap chart listing as #3.

Austen Taurenac is also handwritten into event 1 as '48 A Taurenac Norton 498' plus 4 other written in. Including '13 M Ward Ralt 498'.

The Jaguar shown is later than a Mk5 to me, Lou Kingsley is an entrant in event 2 with a Mk7 and Barry Gurdon is entered in an Austin A50 S/C. There's 4 Fiat 1100's printed (one must have been scratched)and Charlie Smith's #16 is handwritten in this event. So take your pick which one it could be in the 'Ellis' photo. The Gibson #10 Dodge is also entered.

Stephen

[john medley]

Some more research done.

We led ourselves astray assuming Norm Rogers was the only car ever to hit the fence there, and attributed the straight-ahead-from-the-dipper-to-the-fence tyre marks wrongly to his October 1955 practice accident. The other fly in the ointment was the red canvas-bodied car we thought was Bill Ford's Hudson, actually the Ron Evans RVM-Riley which initially carried the Hudson's body, some say, and was driven by Bill Ford Easter 1955.

I am satisfied that the pics show Easter 1955, and by checking road markings and shadows even the races can be specified(but a few of the cars cant, because my photo file is inaccessable):
1.1.30pm Sports Car Handicap
dark MGTF/ Tim Wall MGTC(later Formula 1 mechanic)/scratchmarker Tom Jordan Silverstone Healey 10th/ cream MGTF

2. 11am Group C Scratch
Bill Ford RVM Riley?/ Austen Taurenac Norton Special in programme as Ralt

3.2.15pm Bathurst 100
John Boorman Jaguar C/ Ray Fowler "now yellow" MG J2/TC 4th/Dick Bland Dixon Riley

4. 2.15pm Bathurst 100
Frank Tobin Rizzo Riley(?)

5. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
yellow Fiat 1100(not Charlie Smith;John Plummer or Ted Ansell or Maurie Rolls)/ Don Gibson Dodge

6.1.30pm Sports Car Handicap
Alan Gray Jaguar XK140

7. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
?Dick Shaw Holden?

8. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
Lou Kingsley Jaguar Mk 7

9. 1.30pm Sports Car Handicap
Jim Johnson MGTC/ Mazengarb Minor of either Alf Mazengarb or Maurie Miller

10. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
Barry Gurdon Austin A50 supercharged

11. 2.15pm Bathurst 100
John Ralston MGSpecial/ Reg Hunt Maserati 5th;fastest time

[Ellis French]

Some more research done.

We led ourselves astray assuming Norm Rogers was the only car ever to hit the fence there, and attributed the straight-ahead-from-the-dipper-to-the-fence tyre marks wrongly to his October 1955 practice accident. The other fly in the ointment was the red canvas-bodied car we thought was Bill Ford's Hudson, actually the Ron Evans RVM-Riley which initially carried the Hudson's body, some say, and was driven by Bill Ford Easter 1955.

I am satisfied that the pics show Easter 1955, and by checking road markings and shadows even the races can be specified(but a few of the cars cant, because my photo file is inaccessable):
1.1.30pm Sports Car Handicap
dark MGTF/ Tim Wall MGTC(later Formula 1 mechanic)/scratchmarker Tom Jordan Silverstone Healey 10th/ cream MGTF

2. 11am Group C Scratch
Bill Ford RVM Riley?/ Austen Taurenac Norton Special in programme as Ralt

3.2.15pm Bathurst 100
John Boorman Jaguar C/ Ray Fowler "now yellow" MG J2/TC 4th/Dick Bland Dixon Riley

4. 2.15pm Bathurst 100
Frank Tobin Rizzo Riley(?)

5. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
yellow Fiat 1100(not Charlie Smith;John Plummer or Ted Ansell or Maurie Rolls)/ Don Gibson Dodge

6.1.30pm Sports Car Handicap
Alan Gray Jaguar XK140

7. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
?Dick Shaw Holden?

8. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
Lou Kingsley Jaguar Mk 7

9. 1.30pm Sports Car Handicap
Jim Johnson MGTC/ Mazengarb Minor of either Alf Mazengarb or Maurie Miller

10. 11.20am Sedan Car Handicap
Barry Gurdon Austin A50 supercharged

11. 2.15pm Bathurst 100
John Ralston MGSpecial/ Reg Hunt Maserati 5th;fastest time

John
Many thanks for your time and efforts
Hope it didnt use up too much of your weekend
The info has been emailed to the owner of the pics and is very much appreciated.
Thank you again
Ellis

[onelung]

Thanks Stan - hadn't picked that as the Sabakat!

Here is another Mallala photo - not sure of the date but it may have been a 1962 meeting.
I'll stick my neck out and suggest it's the start of a "Sports" Car race?

The only car I can readily identify is Stillwell's Monaco

#12 ... Noel Hurd, Zephyr Special.

Edited by onelung, 22 May 2010 - 11:41.

[Ellis French]

#12 ... Noel Hurd, Zephyr Special.


Would that be the car that Jim McKeon raced with a Holden engine at one stage.

[David Shaw]

Thanks Stan - hadn't picked that as the Sabakat!

Here is another Mallala photo - not sure of the date but it may have been a 1962 meeting.
I'll stick my neck out and suggest it's the start of a "Sports" Car race?

The only car I can readily identify is Stillwell's Monaco

I don't think #12 would qualify as being a Sports Car in that guise, no guards, lights etc.

[Lee Nicolle]

#12 ... Noel Hurd, Zephyr Special.

Which Noel has restored very nicely and still owns.

[Paul Hamilton]

Multiply diff ratio of 4.1 by first gear ratio and on some smaller road cars you are getting toward 10.1.
Whatever they were used on I still think it is an inept system, an accident waiting too happen. Though some of those uni joints were too as they were running the unis close to bind. I have seen those break. Not a pretty sight

Lee, as Ray says, I think you need to have worked with the system to have a valid view of its merits or otherwise. The drive shafts on my Elfin have large donuts with centralising balls at the inner end and conventional UJs at the outer end. Over the past 37 years I have broken UJs on two occasions (as you say - not a pretty sight!!) but have never come close to a Donut failure and have needed to replace far fewer Donuts than UJs. They are not easy to work with, take up a lot of space and can have a minor influence on spring rates but, in my experience, they are completely trouble free and certainly not an accident waiting to happen.

I did have one of the smaller Elan sized Donuts fail when driving the Dawson Damer Lotus 25 a few years back but, as I recall, it did not at the time have the centralised locating balls which are essential to make the system work satisfactorily.

[kaydee]

More photos from the 1961 Armstrong 500 at Phillip Is. (predecessor to the Bathurst 1000)-


York Motors Studebaker Lark entry - finished 2nd overall


Studebaker drivers David McKay and Brian Foley

[Terry Walker]

It's fabulous seeing these colour shots materialising after all these years. I suppose people think, oh they're just my snaps, and leave them in the closet until one day they finish up in a skip.

As a keen if not very good photographer, I think even the feeblest snaps of almost anything have historic value. Colour racing photography from the 50s and 60s, before colour was common in magazines, is beyond price. Wonderful!

I love this thread.

[David Shaw]

I just chanced across this website:
http://www.motormarq...egory/19/24/68/
and the photos in the Dacre Stubbs collection (especially page 13 on from Australia) are amazing. Others may be aware of this collection, but I certainly wasn't.

[Terry Walker]

Incredible!

Long before my time, but totally fascinating. Maybach 1, Lex Davison with hair, Patto in an MG - superb. Thank you very much!

[Ray Bell]

I don't know about you, Terry, but I'm much more impressed by seeing the detailed shot of the Kaye Special!

http://www.motormarq...s/FM48007_M.jpg

And will someone please let them know that the 'unknown person' is Clive Gibson?

http://www.motormarq...s/FM48028_M.jpg

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 May 2010 - 14:40.

[Lee Nicolle]

Have a look at www.collingrovehillclimb.com.au There is some very good shots including Alec mildren, Stan Jones, Bill Patterson and Kaydee in Morris Minors!
And atajura.org.au for bikes on the hill. Last year. Which i did not know happened , I thought that sort of thing happened in the 50s. good to see.
If you google 'Collingrove hillclimb' you will find a few more interesting sites.

[fredeuce]

I don't know about you, Terry, but I'm much more impressed by seeing the detailed shot of the Kaye Special!

http://www.motormarq...s/FM48007_M.jpg

Ray ,
What can you tell us about the "special" in this pic? When built and by whom , where raced etc.

Appears to be an early Ford based car with a Ford "banjo" rear axle , 35 Ford wires , and what appears to be a Lincoln Zephyr V12 engine. Depending on year could be a cubic capacity of 267 -306 ci. Front end is non Ford given the parallel semi-elliptic spring and knock-off wire wheels . Frame looks a bit like a late 20's Essex. They came fitted with the chassis reinforcement on the lower edge of the frame and were relatively straight rails as appears here.

Edited by fredeuce, 24 May 2010 - 01:08.

[Ray Bell]

Fred, somewhere here I have a front-on pic of that car at Rob Roy, but of very poor quality...

I'm sure you will remember right about now that Doug Whiteford's daughter's name was Kaye. Yes, it's a Lincoln Zephyr engine, the steering column was said by Jim Gullan to be unsupported in his book, but it looks to have some supports in this pic. Albeit, ones that still might allow a lot of movement at the steering wheel!

[hammo]

Another angle on the donut debate. Here is a link to a site where a big crash was blamed on donut failure.
I dont know if this particular set up had the central ball or not.
Scroll down to the last few photos.


http://www.tonyhamil...u/ts8crash.html

[Paul Hamilton]

[quote name='hammo' date='May 24 2010, 12:04' post='4367562']
Another angle on the donut debate. Here is a link to a site where a big crash was blamed on donut failure.
I dont know if this particular set up had the central ball or not.
Scroll down to the last few photos.


The photo of the drive shaft and the broken donut appears to indicate that there was no central locating ball. If there had been one there would be a protruding locating tube on the inner end of the drive shaft. The photo shows no evidence of that or any indication that the locating tube has simply broken off.

[eldougo]

[quote name='Ellis French' date='May 20 2010, 21:12' post='4363312']



The Yellow car is not any RALT driven by Ron or Austin Tauranac.
1951 Ron drove Ralt 1 and the back end i nothing like this pic and the exhurst came out on the leftside ,also Austin drove Ralt 2 a black sports car at same meeting.

[john medley]

Eldougo/Ralt employee/Ralt owner
The car shown is the ex Jack Hooper 500 much modified by Ron and Austen and entered by Austen as a Norton Special -- although some then and now called it a Ralt fom time to time. That bloke Doug Grant, who was at one time Mister Ralt in Italy(hence Eldougo), called it Ralt 3 in John Blanden's Historic Racing Cars in Australia.

[Lee Nicolle]

Another angle on the donut debate. Here is a link to a site where a big crash was blamed on donut failure.
I dont know if this particular set up had the central ball or not.
Scroll down to the last few photos.


http://www.tonyhamil...u/ts8crash.html

That is what I expected a donut to do in that sort of situation. The ball locater in the centre should stop that happening and the shaft flailing around tearing up the car. [and causing accidents]
While still not my preffered method the donut with a ball seems commonsense and should not cause all sorts of weird drive vibrations and torque charactaristics.

[Catalina Park]

Funny, the Porsche 917 seemed Ok with donuts.
The Brabham BT 26 ran donuts with the DFV motor.

[Ray Bell]

Not having the centralising ball is nothing short of poor...

Probably brought about by ill-advised cost cutting.

[kaydee]

Here are several aerial photos of the Phillip Island cicuit taken during the 1961 Armstrong 500

[fredeuce]

kaydee,
Great shots as usual . Keep them coming.

[Ellis French]

That is what I expected a donut to do in that sort of situation. The ball locater in the centre should stop that happening and the shaft flailing around tearing up the car. [and causing accidents]
While still not my preffered method the donut with a ball seems commonsense and should not cause all sorts of weird drive vibrations and torque charactaristics.

The car is owned again by the original builder and restored to as new. He brought it to the Symmons Plains 50th a few weekends ago.

[kaydee]

A couple more aerial views of the Phillip Is circuit taken during the 1961 Armstrong 500 -

[Lee Nicolle]

I knew the original turn 2 was a bit further than now but did not realise that what is now Honda Corner was further inland. The back straight looks the same. Quite different

[Ray Bell]

I think the only change is to the corner behind the pits...

Pretty sure the rest of the circuit remains as it always was.

[john medley]

I cant see Turn 2 aka Southern Loop. I assume it was then where it is now, and where it was when I first raced there in 1978

I was fooled by the photos into thinking that Honda aka Repco was, as you say Lee Nicolle further inland. But not so I think: the pits ( 'the green area" I think they call it)have these days poured like liquid down to that corner to disguise the fact that the 1961 pit area was a very skinny thing along the straight. Honda aka Repco aka "the corner at the back of the pits" was "further inland" in 1978 and probably the same in 1961. We do know that that corner was shortened to move its apex back towards the Southern Loop after 1978

It always amazed me that the way one entered the circuit at one stage in its history (pre motorcycle GP era/ Bob Barnard reconstruction which created the tunnel)was across the race circuit somewhere near The Hayshed. I recall thinking as I towed my mud dropping trailer into and across the circuit that i was probably going to need a clean piece of road in that area come race time. But where exactly was that?

I cant help it: it doesnt matter which way you cut it or over how many decades or whether we were on 2/3/4 wheels what a brilliant circuit and what a brilliant setting. No wonder we were always so prepared to head back to the Isle of Wight to celebrate every day we spent there. Thanks so much, kaydee, for the pleasure

[Lee Nicolle]

I cant see Turn 2 aka Southern Loop. I assume it was then where it is now, and where it was when I first raced there in 1978

I was fooled by the photos into thinking that Honda aka Repco was, as you say Lee Nicolle further inland. But not so I think: the pits ( 'the green area" I think they call it)have these days poured like liquid down to that corner to disguise the fact that the 1961 pit area was a very skinny thing along the straight. Honda aka Repco aka "the corner at the back of the pits" was "further inland" in 1978 and probably the same in 1961. We do know that that corner was shortened to move its apex back towards the Southern Loop after 1978

It always amazed me that the way one entered the circuit at one stage in its history (pre motorcycle GP era/ Bob Barnard reconstruction which created the tunnel)was across the race circuit somewhere near The Hayshed. I recall thinking as I towed my mud dropping trailer into and across the circuit that i was probably going to need a clean piece of road in that area come race time. But where exactly was that?

I cant help it: it doesnt matter which way you cut it or over how many decades or whether we were on 2/3/4 wheels what a brilliant circuit and what a brilliant setting. No wonder we were always so prepared to head back to the Isle of Wight to celebrate every day we spent there. Thanks so much, kaydee, for the pleasure

I can remember Bob Barnard giving a talk saying that turn 2 was shortened for run off reasons when the track was resurrected for the bike GP. i dont think it was much but Honda is a fair bit further inland and a lot tighter corner than it is now

[Ray Bell]

It's the Repco/Honda corner change that shortened the circuit...

Main reason for it all was seepage from the dam undermining the track at that point, I think you'll find.

[onelung]

Thanks Stan - hadn't picked that as the Sabakat!

Here is another Mallala photo - not sure of the date but it may have been a 1962 meeting.
I'll stick my neck out and suggest it's the start of a "Sports" Car race?

The only car I can readily identify is Stillwell's Monaco

This shot was taken Monday 9th October 1961. It is event #7 of a two day (Sat. 7th, Mon 9th) meeting.
Events 1 to 5 run on the 7th, and 6 to 8 on the 9th: event 8 being the Australian Grand Prix.
Event #7 was titled “Racing & Sports Car Race” .. 10 laps, with an internal handicap event over the first 8 laps.
Noel Hurd took out the handicap part of the event, and the outright results after the full 10 laps were…
Bib Stilwell, Cooper Monaco
Noel Hurd, Zephyr Special
“Ecurie Shepparton”, Monza Holden (I trust a TNF’er will know who this was..)
Elfin Sports Cars (…driver??)
B.Cutt, Cooper Morris
J. Waye, Holway (this was a Holden engined sports car/special)
…………………………………………………………………………………………………..
DNF’s
B.Devlin, Lotus
M.McEwin, J.A.P.
R.Guppy, B.S.A.

Edited by onelung, 26 May 2010 - 07:30.

[Paul Hamilton]

[quote name='Ray Bell' date='May 25 2010, 23:29' post='4369006']
It's the Repco/Honda corner change that shortened the circuit...


That is also my recollection but the other change which made the circuit faster was to open up MG which used to be tight enough for some cars to use 1st gear there. It was opened up to suit the bikes.

[David McKinney]

I suspect the Ecurie Shepparton driver was Bryan Thomson

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that would be right...

He had a long and varied career when you think about it.

[David Shaw]

According to Blanden, Lou sold it to Bryan in Feb 1960.

Elfin driver was probably Garrie in a Formula Junior as he was a DNS in the GP with gearbox woes after qualifying 8th.

[johnny yuma]

I cant see Turn 2 aka Southern Loop. I assume it was then where it is now, and where it was when I first raced there in 1978

No wonder we were always so prepared to head back to the Isle of Wight to celebrate every day we spent there. Thanks so much, kaydee, for the pleasure

Sadly no more drinks at the Isle of Wight with it's 1920s ambience,following the fire of last weekend.Predicting another concrete,stainless steel and black
tile pile to appear some time...

[Ian G]

Yeah,great meeting place,big fire i doubt there's much left.

Ten News Video

Edited by Ian G, 26 May 2010 - 23:34.

[Lee Nicolle]

Sadly no more drinks at the Isle of Wight with it's 1920s ambience,following the fire of last weekend.Predicting another concrete,stainless steel and black
tile pile to appear some time...

Agreed, the rest of that beachfront strip has became like that.

[GreenMachine]

Trying this photo posting thing for the first time ...

This was taken at Bathurst, and shows nicely some of the differences between how thing were done then and now

Perhaps Mick can identify the officials - I assume they were all officials ..

If this works I will post some more ...

[GreenMachine]

All taken at the same Bathurst ... These are the only useable Bathurst ones, sadly. The others were all taken with a stock 50mm lens and the action is too far away. I should have some decent B/W photos, but I am still looking for them.

[Ray Bell]

Identifying the John Keran crash is a start, of course...

But I doubt that Mick will know any of those blokes, I was an official at that time, flagging every meeting at the Farm and on occasion at Bathurst and Oran Park, and I wouldn't have a clue.

Nice shot, well recalling the way some cars had garish paint on them to make them more visible to crews as they headed to the pits etc.

And your other pics came up while I was posting... some nice stuff of Brocky's first win there. Gotta love that Datsun, and how did you get up the Shell Tower? Sorry, I think it was Castrol by then.

Edited by Ray Bell, 28 May 2010 - 00:45.

[GreenMachine]

Thanks Ray, yes I had forgotten you spelt his name with an 'a', I was thinking 'i' - too much time spent working in Canberra . I like the Datto too, I had one at the time. Interesting it is running with its number plates, I notice other cars appear to have rego stickers but no plates.

My question about the officials was a little tongue in cheek, but this is the net and you never know!

All taken from GA areas sadly I had no access to restricted areas - just a kid with a camera. The one that looks like it was taken from the Tower was shot on the run down to Forrest's Elbow, the long lens (300mm? no exif in those days haha) gives the impression of heigth.

I especially like the state of the armco in 4 & 5, looks a bit rusty so might have been from previous year? I would hope not, but things were different then ..

I am also intrigued by the Falcon's cage (last shot), difficult to interpret in two dimensions ...

I will post up a few from the Dulux when I have a bit more time.

[David McKinney]

You obviously weren't a typical Bathurst-goer, GM. You took photos of Holdens and Fords

[Lee Nicolle]

Thanks Ray, yes I had forgotten you spelt his name with an 'a', I was thinking 'i' - too much time spent working in Canberra . I like the Datto too, I had one at the time. Interesting it is running with its number plates, I notice other cars appear to have rego stickers but no plates.

My question about the officials was a little tongue in cheek, but this is the net and you never know!

All taken from GA areas sadly I had no access to restricted areas - just a kid with a camera. The one that looks like it was taken from the Tower was shot on the run down to Forrest's Elbow, the long lens (300mm? no exif in those days haha) gives the impression of heigth.

I especially like the state of the armco in 4 & 5, looks a bit rusty so might have been from previous year? I would hope not, but things were different then ..

I am also intrigued by the Falcon's cage (last shot), difficult to interpret in two dimensions ...

I will post up a few from the Dulux when I have a bit more time.

That Falcon shot is weird, the cage seems nonsensical and there does not appear to be anything in the background to give odd illusions. At a guess the cage [or half cage possibly] would be main hoop , a diagonal and two supports to the rear parcel shelf.
Now compare that to Thupercar!!

[brucemoxon]

That Falcon shot is weird, the cage seems nonsensical and there does not appear to be anything in the background to give odd illusions. At a guess the cage [or half cage possibly] would be main hoop , a diagonal and two supports to the rear parcel shelf.
Now compare that to Thupercar!!

Yep, that's a typical roll 'cage' of the time. Looks to me like Brock's car only has a half-cage too.

That crash destroyed John Keran's career - he broke his leg very badly.

Those are GREAT photos considering the old technology and the short lenses. And especially considering you were in the GA areas.



Bruce Moxon

[ellrosso]

Terrific to see unpublished colour shots, I've only ever seen a b/w of the Keran crash from the opposite angle in the magazines of the time (RCN from memory). Great shot of Brock with the flag too. Never chuck out old slides or negs - that shot of the Datsun might be the only colour shot out there........