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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#5201 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:58

Seldo, even the hi-res of that shot looks weird - its just the reflection on the screen which makes the driver look a bit odd. I can assure you its the big fella at the wheel though. Lee - I don't know how efficient the nose up, wheels hanging everywhere was in racing car dynamics, but to see him in full flight and really going for it like he was at Symmons in '69 (started 3 laps behind after push start from flat battery - finished 4th on the road but disqualified) is a sight I will never forget. He was absolutely masterful and consistent to boot.

A couple of years ago I saw on ABC digital a Touring Car race.Warwick Farm? Pete and Alan Moffat in XW GTHOs and Bondy in a 350HT were the main players. Pete disapeared at the start, sideways coming off corners with tyres smoking wheres AM was his usual smooth self as was Bond. After about 20 laps Petes car was in the pits for tyres and Moff continued in the lead. towards the end the HO seemed to run out of engine and Bond who had been lurking took the win.
Harry Firth were critical of the Geoghans in some of his Muscle Car articles for being too hard on cars, and he seems to be justified.Though for a 10 lap race Pete would be very hard to beat.
Somewhat tortoise and hare deal. Pets, super quick but HARD on equipment, Moffat a touch slower but far smoother and Colin Bond lurking and taking the spoils. To me far more interesting than current demo derbys.
There was all sorts of cars in the race, Minis, VF Pacer among them.

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#5202 ellrosso

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:22

Yes I recall Harry being very critical of the Geoghegans in those AMC articles, and with some justification too in his examples. However, in their own cars ie the Lotus 32 and 39 (and 59 too) of Leo and the Mustangs of Ian, they seemed to be relatively sympathetic on the gear and capable of smooth, fast lap times. Lets not forget the number of long distance races Ian won in the Mustangs, admittedly at a canter after opposition dropped out on more than one occasion, but he was the one lasting the distance and racking up a huge catalogue of victories.

#5203 Leo D

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:24

Sensational photos!
But - is it just me, or does Pete's Mustang seem to have a rather ephemeral being at the tiller..?


I had to Google "ephermeral"...... but it looks like Pete is wearing a full face helmet, which he wasn't.... but I do like that word "ephermeral" though.. :wave:

Just moving to PG vs AM in the GTHO's, does anybody remember the race at Sandown where Pete was virtually "glued" to the back of AM's car for several laps until he was handed a penalty?

Edited by Leo D, 25 May 2011 - 12:28.


#5204 austmcreg

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:28

Welcome to the forum, Rob, did I not tell you about this years ago?

And knowing who you are, I guess that you've checked RCN for Baillie's lap times too:



...and they aren't there. Not a single time! What about newspapers, like The Examiner on the Monday or he Tuesday afterwards?



I'm sure it was well vegetated prior to the flood as well. My pics of the rear of cars across there taken from the top of the Viaduct show plenty of bush around.



Do you really think you have to ask?

And then there is the need for you to check the Longford, Reims of the South Pacific thread(s).

Welcome aboard, I hope your book is getting closer!


Thanks, Ray

Just found a fastest lap for Baillie in 1965 (2.57.0), in Tasmanian Motorist which I had previously missed. None of the three Tas daily papers or mainland magazines had any lap times. 17 seconds in 2 years is a lot of progress, but I guess the Geoghegan Mustang was reasonably well developed by then and the Galaxie was almost certainly not. Tyres were changing a lot in that period, too.

I dont have official results sheets for either 1964 or 1965 Longford meetings. Do any TNF readers know who might have them? The 1965 AGP lap chart would be very useful - the lap chart of 1959 AGP solved several many mysteries about that race.

As soon as I can work out how to post photos I'll put some up - I have read the instructions but have not got it yet.

The book was put aside for many years whilst I worked on other projects (motorcycle books) plus usual family/house/work/life stuff but I am back on it now and making progress. Early years 90% done, now working on 1960s.

Rob

#5205 ellrosso

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:44

Hi Rob, I've got the 1965 results in the Tasmanian Motorist's Longford race report. They also have the Flying Mile top speeds of a large variety of cars (incl all the top Tasman cars) which makes interesting reading too (99mph for the John Goss FJ for example). I will post scans of them on here tomorrow (or I can e-mail them to you - I've got your address on my system).

#5206 ellrosso

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:51

Whoops, just re-read your post Rob so you don't need the Tas Motorist details. I'll put them up anyway for other TNFr's (on the Longford thread) as they make interesting reading.

#5207 seldo

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 13:50

It's just you, David...

Do you ever get your eyes checked?

Thanks for your patronisation Ray. I still think it looks almost as if there is no driver...

Edited by seldo, 25 May 2011 - 13:56.


#5208 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 14:11

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
A couple of years ago I saw on ABC digital a Touring Car race.Warwick Farm? Pete and Alan Moffat in XW GTHOs and Bondy in a 350HT were the main players. Pete disapeared at the start, sideways coming off corners with tyres smoking wheres AM was his usual smooth self as was Bond. After about 20 laps Pete's car was in the pits for tyres and Moff continued in the lead. towards the end the HO seemed to run out of engine and Bond who had been lurking took the win.....


And did you notice that one of the flag marshals out on the circuit was mentioned by name during a quiet period during the race?

By the way, there were plenty of occasions when it was Moffat driving his tyres to death in those HO days...

Originally posted by austmcreg
Just found a fastest lap for Baillie in 1965 (2.57.0), in Tasmanian Motorist which I had previously missed. None of the three Tas daily papers or mainland magazines had any lap times. 17 seconds in 2 years is a lot of progress, but I guess the Geoghegan Mustang was reasonably well developed by then and the Galaxie was almost certainly not. Tyres were changing a lot in that period, too.....


The Galaxie wasn't expected to do anything much other than win, I would also suggest. And it wasn't as highly developed as the Mustang for a good reason, it was a 'Group 2' car under European rules (remember, it ran at that Sandown 6-hour) and as such would have lacked some of the freedoms enjoyed by Pete's car.

.....I dont have official results sheets for either 1964 or 1965 Longford meetings. Do any TNF readers know who might have them? The 1965 AGP lap chart would be very useful - the lap chart of 1959 AGP solved several many mysteries about that race.....


Ahhh... a 1965 AGP lap chart. At what part of the circuit? It would be significantly different if it was at the start line, at Longford, at Tannery, even at Newry and then down the Flying Mile. Place changes among the leaders were taking place literally every lap and usually several times per lap.

If, however, you can persuade Campbell McLaren to find his tape of the commentary... and then pay nearly $1000 to the Film and Sound Archive in Canberra to rescue the tape (it's swollen), then you would be able to make the most accurate chart of all. Or if you can find someone in Tasmania who recorded it from the 7LA live broadcast, that would do.

.....As soon as I can work out how to post photos I'll put some up - I have read the instructions but have not got it yet.....


The best way to get a good understanding of that is to click on 'Reply' next to the 'Quote' button below a post with photos in it. That will help you understand how the system works.

#5209 launchpad

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 14:02

I have seen pics of the car with the boot up like that too. Dont know wether it was ina race or not.
I agree about maintaing an advantage,, or Phsycing the opposition as i doubt that would have been any advantage at all.


Looking through 1970 pics - these were taken by me and the "bootlid wing" was used by "Pete" at Oran Park and also Warwick Farm 9 June 1970 meeting.(I think that date is correct.)

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and leading Allan Moffat..

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Lee and Ray, I thought I could help answer the question.

#5210 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 22:41

It's not June 1970, Rod...

That was the meeting where Moffat didn't complete a full race lap, Pete (it is said) biffed him in the Western Crossing to teach him a lesson on the opening tour. In the preliminary Moffat ran without Pete in the race.

Could it be from practice? Wherrett mentions nothing of it in the report.

#5211 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 22:56

I had to Google "ephermeral"...... but it looks like Pete is wearing a full face helmet, which he wasn't.... but I do like that word "ephermeral" though.. :wave:

Just moving to PG vs AM in the GTHO's, does anybody remember the race at Sandown where Pete was virtually "glued" to the back of AM's car for several laps until he was handed a penalty?

With that white face mask, white helmet and suit that pic does look like a ghost in the car. Just the camera angle etc I guess but the driver is almost not there.

#5212 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 22:58

Thanks for your patronisation Ray. I still think it looks almost as if there is no driver...

Ray, I am with David,and others, that pic looks ghostly.

#5213 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 23:15

I agree...

However, it's not every day I get a chance to have a go at David about the thickness of his coke bottles. Which I feel he saw as unfair, so my apologies.

#5214 lyntonh

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 23:32

Looking through 1970 pics - these were taken by me and the "bootlid wing" was used by "Pete" at Oran Park and also Warwick Farm 9 June 1970 meeting.(I think that date is correct.)

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and leading Allan Moffat..

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Lee and Ray, I thought I could help answer the question.

You don't know what you've got tucked away until you look....
Warwick Farm Hordern Trophy 6th Sept 1970

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And as you can see he did race with it!!

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Anybody know if he won?


6th September 1970....


#5215 ellrosso

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 23:47

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Just thought I'd solve this one before it turns into the "Mary Celeste". Its all about reflections and the position of Pete's head in the car.
Nothing extra terrestrial....

#5216 Wirra

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:54

'It' went on to navigate for Frank Gardner

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Edited by Wirra, 27 May 2011 - 02:14.


#5217 Wirra

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 02:12

...Posted Image...

The crowd is too big for a Saturday. I wonder if the boot only appeared on the Sunday?
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#5218 lyntonh

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 03:05

The crowd is too big for a Saturday. I wonder if the boot only appeared on the Sunday?
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That's what my photos show.
Afternoon practice Saturday 5th September 1970 Warwick Farm Esses
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First Improved Touring Race Sunday 6th September 1970 same place...
just shifted back a bit to allow for all those extra people you were talking about...
and making the shot much poorer...!!
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Edited by lyntonh, 13 February 2012 - 04:59.


#5219 launchpad

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 04:00

That's what my photos show.
Afternoon practice Saturday 5th September 1970 Warwick Farm Esses

First Improved Touring Race Sunday 6th September 1970 same place...
just shifted back a bit to allow for all those extra people you were talking about...
and making the shot much poorer...!!


Hi Lynton,
I had the dates as 9/6/70 not 6/9/70 and suspected as much in my first post.
My negs flowed from Saturday practice at Creek Corner into raceday on Sunday for the start and pt straight.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Rod Mackenzie.

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#5220 Leo D

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 04:32

That was the meeting where Moffat didn't complete a full race lap, Pete (it is said) biffed him in the Western Crossing to teach him a lesson on the opening tour. In the preliminary Moffat ran without Pete in the race.


There is actual footage of the incident in existance, as I have it on a commercially available DVD that I purchased.

I also think that RCN carried a picture of Pete and Allan standing together beside the wounded Mustangs.

#5221 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 11:53

I am certain that Pete practised with the boot up...

He probably did laps with it closed and with it up to compare things.

#5222 DanTra2858

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 02:05

When I was working at Geoghegans in the late 60 I was part of a conversation between Pete, Wally Willmott & Barry Lake after Pete had been on a private practice day at OranPark, what blew me away was a statement from Pete who stated that they have set up the Mustang to run toeout, at that stage of my life I believed that only FWD cars ran toeout.

The reason given by Pete is that it turned in better going into a corner, the amount of toeout I can not remember but it is one of those statements in life that you never forget.

No wonder the front wheels seem to be all over the place in photos.

#5223 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 04:29

Toe-out was about the only thing that we used to adjust with the HQ Holdens. The tighter tracks you could get away with a bit more but the longer tracks you needed a bit less (but still some) It made a big difference to the way it turned in.
I overdid it for a while, I was going through turn one at Eastern Creek holding full right lock in a cloud of smoke with all the blokes behind me backing off because they thought I was going to fall off big time!
I also overdid it at Bathurst when I found that while running in traffic Con-rod straight was no longer a straight and was a series of high speed swerves.

#5224 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 05:59

Posted Image
Just thought I'd solve this one before it turns into the "Mary Celeste". Its all about reflections and the position of Pete's head in the car.
Nothing extra terrestrial....

I had worked that out but extraterrestial is more interesting. Pete drove like that because he was an alien!!

#5225 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 06:14

When I was working at Geoghegans in the late 60 I was part of a conversation between Pete, Wally Willmott & Barry Lake after Pete had been on a private practice day at OranPark, what blew me away was a statement from Pete who stated that they have set up the Mustang to run toeout, at that stage of my life I believed that only FWD cars ran toeout.

The reason given by Pete is that it turned in better going into a corner, the amount of toeout I can not remember but it is one of those statements in life that you never forget.

No wonder the front wheels seem to be all over the place in photos.

Toe in is for road cars. I have never ran a race car with toe in in 30+ years. It is just how much. My Torana was not much until I heim jointed the front end as it toed out under brakes big time. After that it was between 2-4mm.
Speedway is a toe out exercise that is fairly easy, start small and experiment. Most sedans run 3-8mm. Sprinters start at 6mm.
As Michael says it depends on the track, fast circuits the car is a bit unstable with too much, whereas Winton and Mallala is maximum.
The Mustang had the top wishbones shortened I have read, it would have been better to lengthen the lowers, or move the pivots out.eg slot the holes further. Though to me I think it had too much camber for crossplies. I learnt that, went from 3 neg back to 1-1.5 with cross plies and increased the caster more and more. And it turned better[though initial turn in was a bit less] and was easier on tyres. Then radials came along and I was using 4 neg and 6 caster and surprisingly it was lighter to steer than my Improved Production Torana with similar specs. And the Sports Sedan was using 290x 650 steer tyres.

#5226 austmcreg

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 11:42

As soon as I can work out how to post photos I'll put some up - I have read the instructions but have not got it yet.

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us
If this works I have solved the imageshack problem! This photo was taken at Longford 1955 meeting and shows Tasmanian Warwick Hine in MGTC (quite a highly developed device - one of Tasmania's fastest cars at the time) chasing Victorian Alan Watson in the little Cisitalia out of the viaduct. It is likely Hine is lapping him as the Cisitalia's lap times were much slower. The photo was taken from down in the rivulet by Hobart -based motorcycle racer Len Priest who many years ago allowed me to copy his images for publication. Note that the bridge at this time was a simple wooden plank affair - it was not upgraded to the more familiar concrete one until sometime in the early 1960s (I have not yet established the exact year). I love the Menzies slogan on the viaduct wall.

Rob Saward

Edited by austmcreg, 28 May 2011 - 12:11.


#5227 kaydee

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 12:15

A couple of pictures under the engine hood of Pete Geoghegan's Mustang.....

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#5228 austmcreg

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 12:33

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
If this works I have solved the imageshack problem!
[/quote]
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Looks like success. This image was taken on Saturday of Longford 1959 Australian Grand Prix meeting, by my father Jim Saward, from the rivulet. The Agfacolour image is a bit more blue than it used to be. Shows John Youl in the Wylie Javelin, at this stage painted red, in his qualifying heat for the AGP. He did not start the AGP on Monday, and as far as I can discover that was because his fastest lap of 3.27 was deemed not fast enough. and he joined Bill Bashfield as a DNQ.

I seem to recall Ray wants to see a photo of the Bashmobile, the other DNQ - I am fairly sure I have one, though not at Longford. I will search for it.

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Edited by austmcreg, 28 May 2011 - 14:05.


#5229 ellrosso

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 22:51

Great stuff Rob, keep them coming.

#5230 Lola5000

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 01:02

I am certain that Pete practised with the boot up...

He probably did laps with it closed and with it up to compare things.

Its a pity the car never ended up with Dave Bowden,of couse he being Big Petes best mate in those days and being there when they picked the car up at the docks. :rolleyes:

#5231 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 03:43

A couple of pictures under the engine hood of Pete Geoghegan's Mustang.....

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I just learnt something. I thought/ assumed that the car had IDA Webers like most others in that era. The magneto would have shortened cam life.

#5232 ellrosso

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 05:16

Pretty sure it started off with Webers Lee, if my memory is working OK. RCN had a story on the car (which Ray will no doubt recall) and I thought it had 48 IDA's in that.

#5233 Leo D

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 05:17

I just learnt something. I thought/ assumed that the car had IDA Webers like most others in that era. The magneto would have shortened cam life.


Lee,

As far as I know, it did start life with a Weber set up.

The fuel injection was added latter in the cars life. I believe it was a part completed project purchased from someone else.

The wider wheels and flared guards, being other noticable items being added to the car during it's life in the Geoghegan stable.

#5234 kaydee

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:16

Lee,
As far as I know, it did start life with a Weber set up.
The fuel injection was added latter in the cars life. I believe it was a part completed project purchased from someone else.
The wider wheels and flared guards, being other noticable items being added to the car during it's life in the Geoghegan stable.

Yes Leo and Lindsay, you're both correct. Pete's Mustang was fitted with 48IDA Weber downdraught carbs early on.
The petrol injection unit was fitted during the last 12 or 18 months of the Mustang's life with Pete.
The injection unit was originally designed as a future development for the Globe Products quad cam Ford V8 for use in their Elfin 400.
However it never ran on the quad cam engine.
Geogehan's then mechanic, Mick Lambert (?) was aware of the unit's existence and subsequently acquired and fitted it to the Mustang.

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Globe-Ford V8 with some of the Globe-Lucas petrol injection unit components in place.

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Throttle slides and the drive housing which ran the distributor, 8 cylinder metering unit and mechanical fuel pump.

Kevin


#5235 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:47

Lee,

As far as I know, it did start life with a Weber set up.

The fuel injection was added latter in the cars life. I believe it was a part completed project purchased from someone else.

The wider wheels and flared guards, being other noticable items being added to the car during it's life in the Geoghegan stable.

All of that would have been on the 67 mustang, I guess about 1970?
I wonder what the car has on it now in its restored guise?


#5236 brucemoxon

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:34

All of that would have been on the 67 mustang, I guess about 1970?
I wonder what the car has on it now in its restored guise?


Des Wall runs it with the fuel injection, flared guards and so on, but not the outrageous negative camber. Because it ran that way in period, he's allowed to run with the Group N cars with more mods than they're allowed.



Bruce Moxon

#5237 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:46

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The Agfacolour image is a bit more blue than it used to be.

I hope you will excuse me the liberty of fixing that:

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#5238 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 19:34

Bill told me he did start the AGP...

The story, as I recall it, went that they had played with the brakes on the Sunday and when he got to the first run down into the Viaduct the brake pedal went to the floor. So he never completed a lap.

#5239 DanTra2858

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 22:25

[quote name='Allen Brown' date='May 29 2011, 22:46' post='5058274']
I hope you will excuse me the liberty of fixing that:

Hi Allen what program do you use to rectify the pictures

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#5240 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 04:28

It's not too hard to do a job like that with Irfanview...

But the ultimate results require something like Photoshop.

If you don't have Irfanview, you should download it and use it for all your picture viewing.

#5241 ellrosso

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 09:55

Few shots from Peter Manton's first visit to Baskerville in 1965. All shots taken by Geoff Harrisson on 4x5" sheet film (a couple were really overexposed and highlight detail was totally washed out but still worth a look). Of background interest is the Peter Cazarro Alfa Giulia shot - the FC behind it is the Frank Manly car mentioned on the Longford thread. Frank was the guy whose Monaro was hanging over the edge of the Tasman Bridge back in 1975.Posted Image
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Lotus Super 7 shot is Alan Ling not Long.


#5242 Leo D

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 10:34

The ex Pete Geoghegan 67 Mustang at Calder - Bob Gill driving, I would assume.

Image provided and posted with the permission of Ray Sinclair.

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#5243 cooper997

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 11:21

Lindsay,

Those Geoff Harrison photos must be from the April 4th, 1965 Tasmanian Touring Car Championship. With the first 3 place getters sitting across the Alpine. I didn't realise Robin Pare was so young.

Thanks for sharing.

Stephen

#5244 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 11:32

Yes, he was just a kid...

I recall seeing him at Longford in March that year.

#5245 ellrosso

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 12:23

Yes he was very fresh faced wasn't he! I think he would have been 17, 18 tops in that shot. Check out the crowd which turned out to see "Skinny" Manton - was a very big deal for Baskerville at the time. Posted Image


#5246 austmcreg

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 12:39

Yes he was very fresh faced wasn't he! I think he would have been 17, 18 tops in that shot.


I think the full story is somewhere in Tasmanian Motorist, but the story goes that Robin Pare's family had a beach shack next door to Don Elliott's, at one of the southern Tasmanian beaches. Don taught the kid to drive and perhaps seeing a bit of talent there decided to resurrect a Cortina that he had previously raced. Robin went on to race Don's cars for more than 10 years, eventually retiring when he had a big one on the back straight at Baskerville when the ELfin ME 5 went nose up and flipped at high speed.

#5247 austmcreg

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 13:09

I hope you will excuse me the liberty of fixing that:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I am pleased you did. I have not made any attempt to fix up these photos yet, but must do so.

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Another one of Youl in the Wyllie Javelin, dont know the date but it was taken in paddock at Baskerville, probably later in 1959 or perhaps 1960. I think this is a Brian Roberts photo. The man with fag is John and Gavin's dad, Boyce, who raced the family Jaguar, also seen behind Boyce, at Longford in 1958 (finishing second to Len Lukey in Customline), before John took it over and went a lot faster. Do any of our other Tasmanian TNFers recognise the other man? I have a suspicion it could be Brian Mahoney, but stand to be corrected on that.

#5248 David McKinney

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 13:39

And might that be Gavin's Porsche, or am I in the wrong time-frame?

#5249 ellrosso

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 21:51

Yes that would be Gavin's Porsche David. More likely to be 1960 than '59 I think as pretty sure Don Gorringe still had it in 1959. I know the shot we have of Gorringe in it at Trevallyn Hillclimb is 1959. Brian Bowe would probably know who the other guy is I'd imagine - I don't know how computer literate he is though.

#5250 Bondy

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 23:14

The ex Pete Geoghegan 67 Mustang at Calder - Bob Gill driving, I would assume.

Image provided and posted with the permission of Ray Sinclair.

Posted Image


Would that be former karter Ray Sinclair?