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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#5501 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 12:35

Originally posted by seldo
2 doors were allowed under a dimensional sub-clause. So, 2 doors were ok provided that the back-seat area complied with certain dimensions. This is where the Porsches and latterly, the RX7s, came under close scrutiny with some very suss specifications just scraping past the rules....


Mixing your metaphors (or something) there David...

We were discussing Appendix J, which ended in 1964 when the 911 was barely in nappies. 2-door cars were always accepted in Improved Touring provided they were homologated as touring cars by the FIA... or they were Holdens.

The Porsche situation was nothing to do with the number of doors, rather the amount of headroom in the back seats. The 911T had thinner seat squabs so it could comply with these rules.

I think the RX7 provisions were that they were wanted by Moffat and the CAMS wanted to please Moffat.

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#5502 GMACKIE

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 21:44

In the period that I drove in Appendix J [1961-3], it was 4 doors for cars over 1300cc. Not sure what rule changes took place after that. The idea was to have 'touring saloon' cars competing, not 2+2 'closed sports' cars [Porsche etc.], I think. The Appendix K category was there for those cars.

#5503 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 23:11

Greg, it must have been more than 1300cc...

As explained above, the Lotus Cortinas (1558cc) and GT Cortinas (1498cc) ran as Touring Cars with two doors. 1600cc is a likely bet, but we might have to ask someone to consult their CAMS Manual.

#5504 Team Result

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 23:41

Mixing your metaphors (or something) there David...

We were discussing Appendix J, which ended in 1964 when the 911 was barely in nappies. 2-door cars were always accepted in Improved Touring provided they were homologated as touring cars by the FIA... or they were Holdens.

The Porsche situation was nothing to do with the number of doors, rather the amount of headroom in the back seats. The 911T had thinner seat squabs so it could comply with these rules.

I think the RX7 provisions were that they were wanted by Moffat and the CAMS wanted to please Moffat.


The RX7 became eligible as a touring car in the same way as the 911T. The Mazda RX7 Custom was a de-optioned model (steel wheels, no air-con, etc) sold in Australia. It featured vinyl covered (no cloth inserts) seats, which in the rear deformed enough under the FIA test to pass the minimum headroom regulation.

Edited by Team Result, 29 June 2011 - 23:43.


#5505 Ellis French

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:54

Greg, it must have been more than 1300cc...

As explained above, the Lotus Cortinas (1558cc) and GT Cortinas (1498cc) ran as Touring Cars with two doors. 1600cc is a likely bet, but we might have to ask someone to consult their CAMS Manual.




I seem to remember it as .....seating for 4 people...(not number of doors) .....and minumum number produced like a 100? or something similar then the classes by engine size.
Its a long time ago.

#5506 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:02

Surely someone else can remember the '4 door' rule! :wave:

#5507 DanTra2858

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:45

Surely someone else can remember the '4 door' rule! :wave:


Ok who out there has a copy of the 1963/4 CAMS Manwell !!!!!!!!! :clap:

#5508 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:01

CMS has one...

I'll ask him to have a look. It certainly did mention the number of doors, that's why Gawaine Baillie's Galaxie and the Gurney Chev couldn't race here in '64 and earlier (yes, it was Appendix J until the end of 1964), while Beechey's 4-door Impala and the Lukey 4-door Galaxie got a run.

Baillie's car could run in '65, and it had run at Sandown under Group 2 FIA regs.

#5509 seldo

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:40

Mixing your metaphors (or something) there David...

We were discussing Appendix J, which ended in 1964 when the 911 was barely in nappies. 2-door cars were always accepted in Improved Touring provided they were homologated as touring cars by the FIA... or they were Holdens.

The Porsche situation was nothing to do with the number of doors, rather the amount of headroom in the back seats. The 911T had thinner seat squabs so it could comply with these rules.

I think the RX7 provisions were that they were wanted by Moffat and the CAMS wanted to please Moffat.

If you say so Ray...
I think you are also mixing your rules.

#5510 Dick Willis

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:23

Ok who out there has a copy of the 1963/4 CAMS Manwell !!!!!!!!! :clap:


I have ! 1964 edition, OK, so which do you want, improved production or Appendix J, valid only to 31/12/1964.

Appendix J, Type ; The automobile must be of a series production type saloon, of which 100 of the particular model must have been produced.

Body, (a) -----------------------must provide adequate normal seating accomodation for four adult persons or more.
(b) Cars in the above mentioned classes ABCDE (ie. 1300cc and over) must have four doors unless they have been homologated by the FIA in a two door version,
cars in classes FGHI ( ie. up to 1300cc ) must have at least two doors.
A couple of other points ; The bodywork, body fittings and interior trim in its entirety must be as supplied by the manufacturer----------
The original type of cylinder-block and crankcase must be employed, ditto the cylinder head.
The original type of gearbox and rear axle assembly
Road wheels-----may be strengthened, or changed, as long as this does not lead to the use of a tyre with a different rim diameter or section to that which could be used on the original wheels

So, no Repco heads or four speed gearboxes on Humpy Holdens and no fat 13"wheels.

#5511 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:44

Thank you Dick. :clap:

Well........I'm waiting. :rolleyes:

#5512 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:02

Yes, Greg, I accept that I was in error...

But that still leaves a question mark over larger cars. Laurie O'Neil imported the Gurney Chev to race it and couldn't... so maybe it wasn't homologated? But it ran in England, it must have been!

Beechey got the only 4-door 409 4-speed ever built to run in Appendix J, I think you'll find that the Lukey Galaxie was the same deal. And 2-door Galaxies certainly had FIA homologation, though maybe not in Group 1 (which Dick doesn't mention).

#5513 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:15

I stand by what I said in post #5502

#5514 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:17

So how do you explain the Lotus Cortinas? Pete's Cortina GT?

Not wanting to argue with you, Greg, as I'm in the same camp. There was a rule about engine capacity vs number of doors, I always thought it was smaller than 1600cc. But we have some anomolies.

#5515 David Shaw

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:25

It is easily explained with this important exclusion, which Greg didn't mention in post #5502 (sorry :( ).

(b) Cars in the above mentioned classes ABCDE (ie. 1300cc and over) must have four doors unless they have been homologated by the FIA in a two door version, cars in classes FGHI ( ie. up to 1300cc ) must have at least two doors.


PS. Also, the Lukey and Baillie Galaxies were a bit different in that although they both appear to be 1963 models, Baillie's was what is known as a 1963 1/2 model (released early 1963 instead of late 1962 when most 1963 models were released) which introduced both the 'Sport Roof' and the 427. Lukey's car ran with the 406 which was the largest engine option in the original 1963 model release.

Edited by David Shaw, 30 June 2011 - 06:29.


#5516 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:31

What happened after 1963, I'm not sure.....all I know is that there was a push by some to have some over 1300 cars with 2 doors, advertising, and other changes to the rules, allowed by CAMS. GT Cortinas were available with 4 doors.

#5517 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:40

It is easily explained with this important exclusion, which Greg didn't mention in post #5502 (sorry :( ).

I did say that the period that I was talking about was 1961 - 1963! What Dick is quoting are 1964 rules.

OOPS! Should that be "about which I was talking"?

Edited by GMACKIE, 30 June 2011 - 06:44.


#5518 Ellis French

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:55

I did say that the period that I was talking about was 1961 - 1963! What Dick is quoting are 1964 rules.

OOPS! Should that be "about which I was talking"?




Greg

You are not often wrong but this time you are right. :lol:

#5519 Catalina Park

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:07

I think that later on the rule was under 1600 cc was allowed 2 doors. I did have it in a book somewhere.
I seem to recall that detail from when Appendix J historics started in the early 80s and some people wanted the rule to apply to the historic formula (mainly the people that didn't drive Mustangs!)

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#5520 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:58

People who didn't drive Mustangs?

No answer on the '61 Impala that ran in England as a 2-door?

#5521 seldo

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:52

I guess it is hardly surprising that we are having trouble deciphering the rules 40 years after the event, since they were a veritable minefield even when current.
I am fairly sure that under Imp Prod rules, any 2 door sedan that was FIA homologated was fine, no matter what capacity - vis Cortina GT, Lotus Cortina, Volvo 122S, Fiat Abarth, etc, but if the car was not homologated and was above a stipulated capacity (1000cc rings a bell?) it could still run provided that the back-seat area met certain dimensions. (Below that capacity limit 2 doors were ok.) This may have been the get-out-of-jail-free card that the Impala and Galaxie relied upon.
Arggh - it used to tax my tiny mind then, and now it's even worse...

#5522 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:24

Improved Production rules, yes... Appendix J no...

They relied on some FIA specs for the back seat space as I recall.

#5523 Option1

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 17:56

...

But that still leaves a question mark over larger cars. Laurie O'Neil imported the Gurney Chev to race it and couldn't... so maybe it wasn't homologated? But it ran in England, it must have been!
...

What's to say it didn't run in a different class in England, and wasn't homologated to FIA specs?

Neil

#5524 David Shaw

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 20:13

Didn't the Gurney Impala only run a couple of times in England before the Jaguar brigade pressured the authorities into banning it? Could this have been the start of the 'no 2-door cars unless they are FIA homologated' rule?

#5525 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 21:31

There's a thread about it around here somewhere...

I've also got a lot of stuff on it here the owner sent me, but finding that might be a chore. It ran with the regular touring cars, Neil, blew them into the weeds.

#5526 David Shaw

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 21:45

I had a quick look at this thread http://forums.autosp...w...t=0&start=0 which is dedicated to Dan's Impala, and it appears that Lofty's mob lodged a protest against the Impala before its second outing and there was found to be homologation irregularities.

#5527 GMACKIE

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 22:52

Sorry, couldn't work the 'link'. See 'Gurney's 1961 Impala' for a bit more on it's Silverdale run.

#5528 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 00:02

That's the link, Greg...

Looking forward to getting those records in a readable size.

#5529 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 03:28

...and here they are:

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#5530 Wirra

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 06:15

Steven Fryer, current owner/driver of the Lionel Ayres MRC 23, has uncovered the proverbial shoebox of his old slides. For starters I 'm sure this one will bring back memories of spectating at Warwick Farm.

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Edited by Wirra, 01 July 2011 - 10:14.


#5531 Ian G

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 06:59

Reminds me of the people that used to climb over the pit fence at the causeway,clerk of the course(may have been Geoff) used to drive around before the race,stop,and say something like "you can't stay there" and drive off,the people never moved and this used to go on before every main race.This photo is a poor eg. but best i can do at short notice.

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by Ian G, 01 July 2011 - 07:05.


#5532 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 07:10

Just missed me...

#5533 john medley

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 09:33

Stephen Fryer is a particularly nasty person, except when looked after by his ghastly mates like Barry and John, and particularly as I recall in the Hotel in Sale a few years ago. May we see more of the Nasty, Small, but Perfectly Formed Person's pictures?

#5534 Wirra

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:30

Mr Medley - your words would be grounds for defamation... it they weren't true!

Amon in the Lotus
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#5535 Wirra

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:50

Just missed me...

Maybe not:

Note the ever ready arms folded position!
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I thought a marshal was supposed to look ahead to warn drivers of impending danger!
And, ever ready position #2 - hands in pockets!
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Edited by Wirra, 01 July 2011 - 11:01.


#5536 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 11:04

Wrong direction...

But nice to see a picture of my mate Niel.

#5537 ed holly

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 22:48

This is the final 5 of John Arkright's photos ... I am sure you will all join with me in thanking John for letting us see these fabulous photos ... Ed

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#5538 ed holly

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 22:52

I have been asked by Jiim Barclay who runs the NZ component of the Tasman Revival if anyone can identify where and when in 1985 this photo was taken ...

Ed

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#5539 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 23:07

AIR, that would be April 21 for the ATCC round there...

There was no Endurance round at AIR that year.

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#5540 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 00:33

The RX7 became eligible as a touring car in the same way as the 911T. The Mazda RX7 Custom was a de-optioned model (steel wheels, no air-con, etc) sold in Australia. It featured vinyl covered (no cloth inserts) seats, which in the rear deformed enough under the FIA test to pass the minimum headroom regulation.

Except that I have never seen an Aussie sold one. The 'custom' was sold in the US and Japan but with no back seat. The cars sold in Australia that I have owned have been 4 seat cars, that my 6,1 frame could not sit in the back of. Series 1 had steel wheels and A/C was an option but S2 all had a/c and alloy wheels. And ofcourse in Oz they all had 12A engines.
The Porkers in the 60s would have had only marginal more rear seat room.
As David says somewhat suss meaurements. I would sooner fit my head in the back of an 850 mini than a RX7 or Porsche. Cortinas never ran AppJ but were a 4 seat car undoubtedly. As were Impalas and Galaxies which were true 6 seat cars

#5541 GMACKIE

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 00:39

Sorry Lee, but Cortinas DID run in Appendix J. :wave:

#5542 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 00:40

Steven Fryer, current owner/driver of the Lionel Ayres MRC 23, has uncovered the proverbial shoebox of his old slides. For starters I 'm sure this one will bring back memories of spectating at Warwick Farm.

Posted Image

He is not standing, he is leaning against a post!

#5543 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 00:44

Sorry Lee, but Cortinas DID run in Appendix J. :wave:

2 doors or 4? I think you will find they were all 4 doors. The GT500s were 1966 and they were defenitly 2 doors

#5544 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 00:48

I have been asked by Jiim Barclay who runs the NZ component of the Tasman Revival if anyone can identify where and when in 1985 this photo was taken ...

Ed

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That is Jonesy in the red grill Alfa who had a ball though I will never know how he kept a right front tyre on it as It was a big puff of smoke everytime he turned into the reverse camber corner. But did he wring its neck and punched well above his weight. The other Alfa is Bond.VK Brock, JPS BMW is Jim and the other in front of Jones is Croakey Crichton and the Ovlov is Robbie Francevic. I recken John Bowe started his Touring Car career at that meeting in a second Ovlov

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 02 July 2011 - 00:51.


#5545 GMACKIE

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 00:49

Trevor Gerard - 1200 2 door, Harry Firth - !500 4 Door........pre 1964.

#5546 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:13

Lotus Cortinas from the Geoghegans and McKeown, the 2-door GT Cortina of Pete Geoghegan...

These have been mentioned previously in this discussion. The Gerard 1200cc car, of course, didn't have to have four doors. Harry Firth and probably John Raeburn and George Reynolds (all Ford Motor Company entries) were probably all 4-doors.

And, once again, the 1965 GT500 has nothing to do with it as:

A. it's not in the Appendix J era (ended at the end of 1964)

B. it was a Bathurst car, which was for purely unmodified tintops.

Edited by Ray Bell, 02 July 2011 - 01:15.


#5547 GMACKIE

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 06:58

Harry Firth rolled the Cortina at Silverdale. He had a bit of a 'run' of roll-overs there for a while - a couple of Falcons too? Not sure that Ford would have been pleased. :mad:

#5548 275 GTB-4

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 08:45

He is not standing, he is leaning against a post!


I say he is NOT standing on the fence, sitting on the fence or anything to do with the fence....he is utilising the Water Pipe structure designed to protect said fence!! :wave:

#5549 275 GTB-4

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 08:46

B. it was a Bathurst car, which was for purely unmodified tintops.


Heeee heee....sure! :rotfl:

#5550 ellrosso

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 08:58

Re the AIR 1985 shots - John Bowe joined the team at Bathurst 1985, it was only Francevic in the Volvo. I've attached the feature shot of the RCN article - fantastic race with an absolutely torrid battle between Brock and Richards in the first 15 or so laps with Brock turning himself inside out to stay in front of Richards in the quicker BMW.
Also a shot of one of the better looking members of the Graham Lawrence pit crew from Sandown in 1977.
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