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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#6301 Hank the Deuce

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 00:39

I doubt there was ever a hint of a 253 in there...

Australian Muscle car mag, who seem to take their research quite seriously, had what you'd say was an in-depth analysis of H's activities in devising the V8 XU-1 - and as H told it at the time, it wore a 253 initially, ostensibly for confirming fitment etc.

I might drag that issue out of the pile, if the chance arises, but I seem to recall that it may have competed with that donk in it, including the Easter 1972 Bathurst races, where Colin Bond raced it to compare with the 6-cylinder XU-1.

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#6302 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 05:56

Australian Muscle car mag, who seem to take their research quite seriously, had what you'd say was an in-depth analysis of H's activities in devising the V8 XU-1 - and as H told it at the time, it wore a 253 initially, ostensibly for confirming fitment etc.

I might drag that issue out of the pile, if the chance arises, but I seem to recall that it may have competed with that donk in it, including the Easter 1972 Bathurst races, where Colin Bond raced it to compare with the 6-cylinder XU-1.

They may have used it for a fitting, externally they are the same but a 253 would never be a viable race engine as the bore and stroke combo are wrong for a performance engine. As I said before it would have been no quicker than the xu1 engines. And heavier.
Harry would never have been interested in half doing things. Read his articles on GMHs stuff ups with the prototypes,,, and the L34 cockups a couple of years later. That a 350+hp engine with a 250hp gearbox and 200hp diff. And a lousy sump that made the engines explode regularly.
The 308 XU1 would have been quite fragile but since it weighed 200kg less and probably would have had 50 less hp would have been a feasible handgrenade. And was never expected to be a long lasting car.
So the numerous 'homebuilt' ones still around have exceeded everyones expectations

#6303 ellrosso

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:03

I'm just reading the AMC "Brock and I" special edition magazine and the only mention of a 253 in the "Developing the XU-1 V8 article is as follows "Ian Tate put a 253 V8 drive gear on a standard 308 camshaft to change the phasing - with new air cleaner this gave approximately 280 horsepower and good torque". This is the only deviation from the 308 engine mentioned in the whole article, so I think it can be assumed that the 308 was the only engine of choice for the car.
Interesting, when Harry grilled Larry on how quick he was going on the long straight out of West Wyalong, Larry says he was sitting on 7000 rpm in top gear which apparently equated to almost 200mph..... Bit of a stretch, but Bond was hitting 170 at Bathurst in identical trim down Conrod, so it was bloody quick.

#6304 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:28

I'm just reading the AMC "Brock and I" special edition magazine and the only mention of a 253 in the "Developing the XU-1 V8 article is as follows "Ian Tate put a 253 V8 drive gear on a standard 308 camshaft to change the phasing - with new air cleaner this gave approximately 280 horsepower and good torque". This is the only deviation from the 308 engine mentioned in the whole article, so I think it can be assumed that the 308 was the only engine of choice for the car.
Interesting, when Harry grilled Larry on how quick he was going on the long straight out of West Wyalong, Larry says he was sitting on 7000 rpm in top gear which apparently equated to almost 200mph..... Bit of a stretch, but Bond was hitting 170 at Bathurst in identical trim down Conrod, so it was bloody quick.

The storys and commonsense are starting to get further apart.The storys have gotten taller over the years.
Red 253 and 308s use the same timing sets.
And 7000 in top gear from a mild 308 just would not happen. And 170mph at Bathurst is only about 30mph faster than the car was capable, it would need double the horsepower to achieve that speed, especially on the old conrod. It is more sheltered now.

#6305 Dewie

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:22

The storys and commonsense are starting to get further apart.The storys have gotten taller over the years.
Red 253 and 308s use the same timing sets.
And 7000 in top gear from a mild 308 just would not happen. And 170mph at Bathurst is only about 30mph faster than the car was capable, it would need double the horsepower to achieve that speed, especially on the old conrod. It is more sheltered now.

Yep

#6306 onelung

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 21:37

... when Harry grilled Larry...

Did I miss seeing the movie of that name? :rotfl:


#6307 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 21:45

Originally posted by DJH
I was always mystified by what quirk of dimensional jiggery pokery and red tape stretching qualified Porshe 911's and Mazda RX-7's as touring cars. Where would the kids, grandma and suitcases fit in the back of either of those for the Christmas holidays trip to Terrigal?


We were watching money and egos at work...

#6308 Cam Arnott

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 22:43

I was always mystified by what quirk of dimensional jiggery pokery and red tape stretching qualified Porshe 911's and Mazda RX-7's as touring cars. Where would the kids, grandma and suitcases fit in the back of either of those for the Christmas holidays trip to Terrigal?



They had back seats......admittedly small but they were there.

In the case of the 911 you could order a Porsche or AMCO roof rack or a luggage rack for the engine lid for the holiday trips.

Great photos Lynton :clap:

Edited by Cam Arnott, 16 January 2012 - 22:46.


#6309 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 23:57

The FIA required certain dimensions of the seats and Porsche made a car with very thin seat squabs to cater for that...

Mazda just bludgeoned their way through the CAMS system with no regard for the rules.

#6310 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 00:03

The FIA required certain dimensions of the seats and Porsche made a car with very thin seat squabs to cater for that...

Mazda just bludgeoned their way through the CAMS system with no regard for the rules.

In a lot of markets early RX7s did not even have a back seat, my 6,1 does not fit in the back seat of an Ausie one. I have owned a few of them,,, 2 ended up as racecars and no not me.
CAMS wanted more manufacturers, the fact the only Mazda suitable was a Sports Carseemed irrelevant. BUT they were only supposed to play in under 3 litre with 12A bridge ports, the Mazda and Moffat got together and conned CAMS into allowing them as outright cars is when things really got silly.The joke is ofcourse that a Mazda is legal? as a Sports Sedan but a Porsche is not. But both are elegible for Marque Sports and other Sports Car clases too. Dumb decisions by CAMS have filtered down over 30+ years as so many categorys still have Sports Cars racing in Touring Car classes. The only place in the world were they were raced as Touring Cars
Mazda never sold that car in Oz with a 13B, and ofcourse PP, then fuel injection was allowed too. Wheras Holden and Ford had to play by the rules.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 January 2012 - 00:14.


#6311 brucemoxon

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:29

The RX7s raced in Australia were subject to the same narrow seat back as the USA and UK variants.

Win Percy raced an RX7 in the BTCC. It wasn't only in Australia they raced as Touring Cars.

If the Bluebird turbo was allowed to race, why not the Mazda? At least you could buy an RX7 here; you couldn't get a Camaro nor a Bluebird with anything other than an asthmatic L20 four-pot. The Turbo was a Z18 twin-cam with an independent rear end.

The engine freedoms allowed the Ford and Holden V8s might not have been as much as those allowed the Mazda, but the organisers were trying to achieve parity, albeit they were on the receiving end of some pretty fierce lobbying.

I've never understood why the BMW 635 wasn't allowed the M1 twin-cam head, if the others all got big freedoms. Oh well.




Bruce Moxon

#6312 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:44

Bruce (and Lee), for the ATCC it has never had anything to do with what's available in Australia...

Well, except for when they wanted to restrict people and cars. Or achieve 'parity'.

The seat dimensions related to head height from squab to roof, leg room etc.

One of the biggest arguments with the RX7 was the allowance of the peripheral ports.

#6313 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:50

The RX7s raced in Australia were subject to the same narrow seat back as the USA and UK variants.

Win Percy raced an RX7 in the BTCC. It wasn't only in Australia they raced as Touring Cars.

If the Bluebird turbo was allowed to race, why not the Mazda? At least you could buy an RX7 here; you couldn't get a Camaro nor a Bluebird with anything other than an asthmatic L20 four-pot. The Turbo was a Z18 twin-cam with an independent rear end.

The engine freedoms allowed the Ford and Holden V8s might not have been as much as those allowed the Mazda, but the organisers were trying to achieve parity, albeit they were on the receiving end of some pretty fierce lobbying.

I've never understood why the BMW 635 wasn't allowed the M1 twin-cam head, if the others all got big freedoms. Oh well.




Bruce Moxon

Bruce, that is the point. Most US RX7s did not have a back seat. They were a 2 seater.I have seen a lot of those as imports from the US, and SE Asia. No back seat, just a shelf. There is quite a few of those imports here registered as such, 2 seaters.
At least as far as I know all Porkers have a back seat, some it seems with a very unfunctional one from what Rays says!

#6314 pknowles

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:16

jwf milano for sale on ebay, http://www.ebay.com....=item2ebac09522

#6315 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 06:18

The Dick Willis/Kenny Mitchell car...

It might have been a more suitable addition to the Milano GT thread, but an eBay item is only current for three or four months and then the link's useless.

It might be better to do a screen shot of the eBay listing and then post that as a picture.

#6316 lyntonh

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:35

Oran Park 21st May 1972 "Angas & Coote Diamond Trophy Race" 25 Laps

Bob Muir leads Kevin Bartlett ....... both Lola T300
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John Walker & John McCormack ..... both Elfin MR5, with Max Stewart in the Mildren Waggott tucked under Walker's wing
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Max riding the edge of the road, & McCormack
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Max
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Walker
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Muir.... ground clearances have come down over the years....
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Muir won from Bartlett, Walker & Campbell....KB new lap record 40.2

Edited by lyntonh, 10 February 2012 - 12:30.


#6317 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:25

The Dick Willis/Kenny Mitchell car...

It might have been a more suitable addition to the Milano GT thread, but an eBay item is only current for three or four months and then the link's useless.

It might be better to do a screen shot of the eBay listing and then post that as a picture.

Only a week while current unless you have it on your watch list.

#6318 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:56

Actually no...

If you have the item URL you can open it until it's deleted, which is up to four months.

#6319 Paul Newby

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 00:15

I've never understood why the BMW 635 wasn't allowed the M1 twin-cam head, if the others all got big freedoms. Oh well.

Bruce Moxon


Bruce, didn't the 635 get the 24 valve M twin cam head in late 1983, following CAMS concessions? I'm sure it ran in this configuration during 84, the last year of Group C.

Of course with the advent of Group A in 85 it was back to the 12 valve SOHC head...





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#6320 gouldo

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:43

A great combination a Healy towing the Byfield Repco Albany 1962 or 63. Lionel Beatie or Rod.




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Dad has a pic somewhere of his 1949 Austin A90 Atlantic convertible towing his 1962 Nota Sportsman. Between the three of them it was something like 170 odd years of 'life.'

#6321 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:02

Bruce, didn't the 635 get the 24 valve M twin cam head in late 1983, following CAMS concessions? I'm sure it ran in this configuration during 84, the last year of Group C.

Of course with the advent of Group A in 85 it was back to the 12 valve SOHC head...

In the end the Bimmers got a twin cam head[which the cars were never sold with evidently] , the Fords had wider tyres, The Mazdas had efi. Total dogs breakfast from CAMS.

#6322 eldougo

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:24

Turning left into Aberdeen St Albany
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Looking out over KingGeorge Sound.
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Edited by eldougo, 18 January 2012 - 09:28.


#6323 Repco22

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:36

Turning left into Aberdeen St Albany
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Looking out over KingGeorge Sound.
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Doug, that dorsal fin sticking up over the Sound in the second pic is a new landmark. A cause of much division, it is the Albany Entertainment Centre on the waterfront and I'm told it's now drawing good crowds to varied events.

#6324 brucemoxon

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:06

In the end the Bimmers got a twin cam head[which the cars were never sold with evidently] , the Fords had wider tyres, The Mazdas had efi. Total dogs breakfast from CAMS.


Dang - I thought they'd always missed out.

Yes, it was a total dog's breakfast. But the racing was occasionally good.





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#6325 lyntonh

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:51

May 21st 1972 Oran Park

They used to put on some odd things....
Pete Geoghegan & Doug Chivas in the sponsor's furniture trucks
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Fred Gibson & Graham Moore
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?, Graham Moore & Fred Gibson
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Brock in the Torana 308 V8 in the later race...running steel wheels on the front
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Edited by lyntonh, 10 February 2012 - 12:11.


#6326 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:12

Originally posted by lyntonh
May 21st 1972 Oran Park

They used to put on some odd things....
Pete Geoghegan & Doug Chivas in the sponsor's furniture trucks
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That's Chivo in the AT4...

#6327 Stephen W

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 10:19

May 21st 1972 Oran Park

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They both did very well!

#6328 GMACKIE

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 20:37

Well, who'd of thought........Young Mr Grace on TNF. :lol:

It's amazing how much difference the 4 headlights make to the performance.

#6329 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 21:39

I think that one might have had a 318 under the bonnet...

And the Inter might have been one of those incredibly thirsty sixes.

Whoever stamped the main body panels would have won either way, of course.

#6330 Ian G

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 22:32

That photo has bought back some memories,a bit of fun but i have a vague idea there was some sort of controversy or drama over the trucks running around,i know a couple of officials were "woody woodpecking" each other over some disagreement.

Edited by Ian G, 19 January 2012 - 23:03.


#6331 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 23:16

I think that one might have had a 318 under the bonnet...

And the Inter might have been one of those incredibly thirsty sixes.

Whoever stamped the main body panels would have won either way, of course.

Most of the panels were stamped at Finsbury by the Chrysler truck assembly. I dont know about the front stuff though, that is all Inter. In that vin tage I think all the barecabs were assembled here but I think International then finished them in Melbourne.
That Dodge is a 575 I reckon and probably 318. The Inter is one size smaller with it seems 17" rims. And far better aero, it is 3 feet lower[in the box] and has no sunvisor and smaller mirrors!!

#6332 DanTra2858

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 04:38

May 21st 1972 Oran Park

They used to put on some odd things....
Pete Geoghegan & Doug Chivas in the sponsor's furniture trucks
Posted Image

Very much with tongue in cheek would this be the First Truck race at Oran Park let alone in Australia

#6333 lyntonh

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 05:11

Since there's such enormous interest....

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#6334 DJH

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 05:40

Crikey, those are subby's trucks.
Mr. Lewis from Picnic Point wouldn't have been too pleased if Ian G had pranged his work horse.

Edited by DJH, 20 January 2012 - 05:46.


#6335 seldo

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:07

Since there's such enormous interest....

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There were obviously more than just Chivo and Pete, since there's two different Inters in the pics...

#6336 lyntonh

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:29

There were obviously more than just Chivo and Pete, since there's two different Inters in the pics...


I can't remember....
Obviously they ran a full field!!

What gets me now, is that I took no photos of sports cars or vees,
possibly conserving film, but I used up four shots on this stuff!!

#6337 seldo

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:32

I can't remember....
Obviously they ran a full field!!

What gets me now, is that I took no photos of sports cars or vees,
possibly conserving film, but I used up four shots on this stuff!!

You still always seem to come up with some amazing photos Lynton...:)

#6338 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 09:21

I can't remember....
Obviously they ran a full field!!

What gets me now, is that I took no photos of sports cars or vees,
possibly conserving film, but I used up four shots on this stuff!!

Lynton, you could take pics of Vees and Sports Cars anytime but pantech racing doesnt come along very often!!
A new class for the truck racing people. No speed governers needed, the box will do all that is needed.No roll cage needed the box will do that. Though I think that carrying furniture should be banned!
Though knowing those Dodges and Inters you would have to be carefull on left turns as the door is likely to fly open. Maybe they had the security lock that lots of owners had with them,,, a padbolt on the door.

#6339 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:22

I think there was about eight trucks in the field...

I would have to check my RCNs to get the names of the other drivers. Once again, the last meeting at Oran Park before I started to write those reports.

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#6340 parkey

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 03:59

hello all
does anyone remember or have any old photos of noel simmons early model holden (FX) racing car? it was painted lime green, no stripe and raced at calder,hume weir and winton,also a couple of melbourne hillclimbs, between 1972 and 1975
thanks parkey

Edited by parkey, 23 January 2012 - 04:02.


#6341 lyntonh

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:20

Warwick Farm Creek Corner 12th July 1969....

in order as the day progressed.........

Driver's name blanked out...
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Clerk of Course
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The shortest engine bay in the world....
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Neil Allen in the best sounding car there ever was
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Roly Levis
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?
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Cement dust....the Buchanan in the background
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Tony Oxley Chevron & Frank Matich SR4
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Dennis Cribbin in the Bolwell
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?
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Edited by lyntonh, 10 February 2012 - 12:17.


#6342 Wirra

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:42

Warwick Farm Creek Corner 12th July 1969....
Dennis Cribben in the Bolwell
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Alfa Romeo TZ-2
http://www.zagato-ca...Z-2_750112.html

#16 - I first thought Col Green in the Brabham BT16 but the name suggest Clive Millis in a Rennmax BN3

Edited by Wirra, 24 January 2012 - 11:59.


#6343 lyntonh

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:48

Alfa Romeo TZ-2
http://www.zagato-ca...Z-2_750112.html


And I've just corrected Cribben to Cribbin....

He obviously bought the car from Brunninghausen

No offence intended to either Alfa or Bolwell...you can choose


#6344 lyntonh

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:01

Not that clear....but the same car at Oran Park 9th August 1969 Robin Orland Corner
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& note the bonnet & boot up on the mound beyond....showing it off perhaps?....oh & the S? series as well...

Edited by lyntonh, 10 February 2012 - 12:05.


#6345 seldo

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:52

Your photos continue to amaze me Lynton - I can't recall ever seeing them at the time they were current...

#6346 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 21:06

I'm pretty sure the Elan isn't Macarthur's...

Pat Hogan and his partner (whose name I simply cannot remember) had theirs by then, I think it's in the dark blue as purchased from Bob Beasley.

The white car is undoubtedly the David Moline Elfin Streamliner, you can see the 'Ian Hindmarsh Motors' line along the side, David was in thick with Ian Hindmarsh (and died with him when the boat went down?).

The shot of Cribbin at Oran Park is clearly in practice, he actually won a race at that meeting, though Richard Carter finished on his tail and got fastest lap.

Seldo, the beauty of Lynton's shots is that they're all-encompassing, the top line drivers, the backmarkers and anything interesting. We do owe him greatly for this stuff!

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 January 2012 - 21:07.


#6347 lyntonh

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 21:08

Your photos continue to amaze me Lynton - I can't recall ever seeing them at the time they were current...


Only ever had one published, in RCN May 1973, in an ad for Mother Tucker Restaurants, when they sponsored Peter Lander.

I didn't see them as being up to scratch for publication.

I used a Pentax Spotmatic & a Tamron zoom, & I always saw them as never quite sharp.

I hankered after a Nikon, but never had the cash.

My processing facilities were rudimentary, so the negs & prints were pretty average.

I must admit, now I've been able to digitally scan them, some of them have come up OK.



#6348 GMACKIE

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 21:36

What do you mean OK, Lynton.........They're f...n' GREAT. :up:

#6349 David Shaw

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 22:26

May 21st 1972 Oran Park

They used to put on some odd things....
Pete Geoghegan & Doug Chivas in the sponsor's furniture trucks
Posted Image

Probably Pete is between the 2 trucks that are visible. Three shadows in this photo.



#6350 lyntonh

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 23:13

You blokes must use a magnifying glass....you don't miss much!!