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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#6451 Richard Townley

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 10:28

MGs raced in all sorts of events continuously since the 30s with rear hinged doors, never an problem with them for the TC men.
Most common way to prevent any issues was the security of the tonneau cover on the passenger side and the drivers elbow on the right.


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#6452 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 22:22

In all my years of involvement in Motor Sport I have never heard of cars with so called suicide doors being deemed illegal, would love to hear where this info generated from as I can't remember ever seeing a CAMS directive to this effect.

They were banned for racing at least mid 70s, no new log books for cars with front opening doors from then. Really it was only a few small Euro cars affected. Before then front opening doors had been banned via the ADRs on production cars. Those Fiats in Lyntons pic were probably the last cars sold here with them.

#6453 BritishV8

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 23:12

Graeme Lawrence's upgraded Brabham BT29 has appeared a number of times in this thread...

Anyone who is interested in this car's unique history might enjoy the latest new article on BritishRacecar.com:
Murray Sinclair's (ex Graeme Lawrence) Brabham BT29 Returns to Race at Watkins Glen

A want to say a big THANK YOU to Lynton Hamer for his permission to include two of his wonderful photos in the article.

Here's what the car looks like today (with wings temporarily removed)
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#6454 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 23:55

They were banned for racing at least mid 70s, no new log books for cars with front opening doors from then. Really it was only a few small Euro cars affected. Before then front opening doors had been banned via the ADRs on production cars. Those Fiats in Lyntons pic were probably the last cars sold here with them.


Lee, it is simply not correct to say that there was ever any CAMS initiated ban on front opening doors and the suggestion that it would only have affected 'a few small Euro cars' is quite ridiculous. There have always been a wide range of sports, classic and historic cars with 'suicide' doors and log books for various of them were on issue right through the 70's and still are.

#6455 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:39

Lee, it is simply not correct to say that there was ever any CAMS initiated ban on front opening doors and the suggestion that it would only have affected 'a few small Euro cars' is quite ridiculous. There have always been a wide range of sports, classic and historic cars with 'suicide' doors and log books for various of them were on issue right through the 70's and still are.

I know a couple of people that were discourages or refused a log book in cars with suicide doors. One was a Renault 750 for Sports Sedan. In about 76. Luckily he was not far advanced and transferred the mechanicals [and money] into a R8. About the same time there was a Fiat knocked back too.
Maybe in historics they are still ok, but have not been for mainstream categorys for over 30 years. And no road car in Oz has had them for far longer.

#6456 DanTra2858

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 05:19

I know a couple of people that were discourages or refused a log book in cars with suicide doors. One was a Renault 750 for Sports Sedan. In about 76. Luckily he was not far advanced and transferred the mechanicals [and money] into a R8. About the same time there was a Fiat knocked back too.
Maybe in historics they are still ok, but have not been for mainstream categorys for over 30 years. And no road car in Oz has had them for far longer.


Lee I am sorry to say that I still stand behind my statement "In all my years of involvement in Motor Sport I have never heard of cars with so called suicide doors being deemed illegal, would love to hear where this info generated from as I can't remember ever seeing a CAMS directive to this effect."

If you can find a CAMS directive then I will bow to your assestment of the issue, discouraged is a long way from a CAMS directive.

#6457 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 10:24

Lee I am sorry to say that I still stand behind my statement "In all my years of involvement in Motor Sport I have never heard of cars with so called suicide doors being deemed illegal, would love to hear where this info generated from as I can't remember ever seeing a CAMS directive to this effect."

If you can find a CAMS directive then I will bow to your assestment of the issue, discouraged is a long way from a CAMS directive.

It was in a CAMS report that I saw,, before I started racing in 77. No new log books for cars with forward opening doors.It was brought up at car club metings at that time. If you wrecked one you could not reshell it either. Hence Steve Blee building an 8 after he rolled the 750 at Tailem Bend Rallycross quite severely. As I said historics may differ,,though I would like to see someone try and log book a 750 or similar for Historic Sp[orts Sedan. The only one I know that is still 'playing' is Dick Wards Fiat and he is only sprinting that these days.
And Dauphines are 'normal' with doors.

#6458 Piquet959

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 12:24

Not sure if this help at all but Michael Stupka, a long time member of the Historic Touring Car Assoc of Vic has a Citroen with suicide doors that he races in historics. The car is an original Group C car. He has the original log book and has a COD I believe.

If it has a Group C log book I would think there may not have been any kind of ban on suicide doors?

Cheers
Peter Sneddon

#6459 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 01:55

Not sure if this help at all but Michael Stupka, a long time member of the Historic Touring Car Assoc of Vic has a Citroen with suicide doors that he races in historics. The car is an original Group C car. He has the original log book and has a COD I believe.

If it has a Group C log book I would think there may not have been any kind of ban on suicide doors?

Cheers
Peter Sneddon

A Gp C Tourer? They were 80s and no car in that period had suicide doors. I cannot remember any Citroens in GpC?
I would have though the last Citroen with suicide doors was the post war model.

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#6460 Catalina Park

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:49

Group Nc I believe.
Still, I can't understand how it is Nc though.

#6461 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:54

Wide wheels?

Maybe he's confused about what Group C is?

#6462 Ian G

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 04:12

Lee may be half(or maybe more) right thou.,there was something going on with CAMs & doors on competition cars in the 70's,i remember our NSW CAMS delegate mentioning it at a Car Club meeting to great roars of laughter,i thought it was doors that lifted up and couldn't be opened if the car ended up on its roof but i may be wrong.

Edited by Ian G, 03 February 2012 - 04:15.


#6463 Catalina Park

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 05:00

In my car club days in the early 80's I can remember talk that both the Pervis Eureka and the Mini Moke were both being banned from competition but I never saw any paperwork to show it was actually a fact. The Eureka because if the door and the Moke for structural integrity.

#6464 johnny yuma

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 05:46

Wide wheels?

Maybe he's confused about what Group C is?

Yes I 've seen the citroen at Sandown historics it's early 50s,group N.
Pug 203s of the same vintage have suicide doors,probably some in group n in modern times.


#6465 Catalina Park

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 05:48

The only photos I could find of the Citroen on the net it had Nc on the side.

#6466 lyntonh

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 07:02

Bob Lumby in the Buckle originally owned by Brett Sowerby,
at a NSSCC short cicuit event at Amaroo 30th July 1972
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The Buckle web-site has this as car 93-888, which is now back with Bill Buckle.

#6467 lyntonh

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 07:09

A couple more from the same day, showing that even the slow guys commit.

Graham Jenkins Datsun 1600.... 15th fastest on the day
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W Lewis Honda.... 65th out of 69 on the day
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Edited by lyntonh, 10 February 2012 - 11:39.


#6468 Piquet959

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 21:55

Just to be clear I have been involved with the Historic Touring Car movement since 1984. As a competitor in both the original revival of appendix j later called Nb and a current competitor in Nc, and on the committee of the HTCAV that drafted the original CAMS regs for Nc. I don't think I am confused about what Group C is!

The HTCAV is having a sprint meeting at Broadford tomorrow. I will clarify the status of his Citroen with him at the meeting.
Before Group C got themselves up and running we had a couple of Group C cars compete in our category. I can think of the Bob Jane Torana for one and the guy that owned jolly roger marine raced a mustang, I think it was the geoghan mustang. That car was the Bob (prahrans fastest plumber) Gill car which was a sports sedan when Bob raced it.

I currently race the only LC GTRXU1 in group Nc. Not quite as competitive as the LJ's but as it is a genuine Lc XU 1 it competes with a 186 fitted.

Peter sneddon

Edited by Piquet959, 03 February 2012 - 22:08.


#6469 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 00:13

The Geoghegan Mustang never went to Ross Donnelly, did it?

John Mann had it last I heard, I think Donnelly was running a red fastback then.

#6470 Lola5000

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:40

The Geoghegan Mustang never went to Ross Donnelly, did it?

John Mann had it last I heard, I think Donnelly was running a red fastback then.

Yes it did he bought it of Bob Gill,restored it ,raced it a few times then sold it.
His fastback was orange,sold it to Jim Morton whom had the Tillys race it,I had it for a while then the car dealer had it in VIC,nows it back with Ross.

#6471 Dick Willis

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:09

We seem to be getting distracted debating suicide doors etc when this thread is supposed to be about photos of Australian Motor Racing, so here's a pic of a famous Australian Special enroute to Bathurst in 1958 but the towmaster, a side valve Morris Oxford with a full load of passengers and kit, has blown a radiator hose on the climb over the Blue Mountains. Meanwhile the crew await help.

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#6472 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:21

The Geoghegan Mustang never went to Ross Donnelly, did it?

John Mann had it last I heard, I think Donnelly was running a red fastback then.

Donnelly restored it and it went to Des Wall when he sold it. As far as I know Des still has it.

#6473 austmcreg

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:32

We seem to be getting distracted debating suicide doors etc when this thread is supposed to be about photos of Australian Motor Racing

Could not agree more, thanks Dick. To help the cause, a photo from Longford 1966, in the Shell tent, showing Shell driver Jim Palmer with his ex Clark Lotus 32B Climax. Perched on the rear wheel is another Shell driver, Jackie Stewart. Taken from a colour print (very early one) taken by Jim & Pat Smith.
Rob Saward

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#6474 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:38

Just to be clear I have been involved with the Historic Touring Car movement since 1984. As a competitor in both the original revival of appendix j later called Nb and a current competitor in Nc, and on the committee of the HTCAV that drafted the original CAMS regs for Nc. I don't think I am confused about what Group C is!

The HTCAV is having a sprint meeting at Broadford tomorrow. I will clarify the status of his Citroen with him at the meeting.
Before Group C got themselves up and running we had a couple of Group C cars compete in our category. I can think of the Bob Jane Torana for one and the guy that owned jolly roger marine raced a mustang, I think it was the geoghan mustang. That car was the Bob (prahrans fastest plumber) Gill car which was a sports sedan when Bob raced it.

I currently race the only LC GTRXU1 in group Nc. Not quite as competitive as the LJ's but as it is a genuine Lc XU 1 it competes with a 186 fitted.

Peter sneddon

GpC was mid 70s to early 80s Touring Cars.
The Geogham Mustang etc are Improved Touring Cars from the late 60s early 70s.
Group Nc is a non historic class of racing masquerading as historic. Those cars were never raced in those specifications in period,, EVER. Good racing and interesting cars defenitly but not historic in any way. And some of the really good cars are built more like a GpA car than a late 60s car.

A good LC XU1 should be as fast on most tracks as an LJ except maybe for Bathurst as torque is required to go up the hill. One diff ratio shorter and turn a 186 500 rpm harder will make it as fast, possibly faster. But like all those engines they are big dollar engines.

#6475 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:46

Could not agree more, thanks Dick. To help the cause, a photo from Longford 1966, in the Shell tent, showing Shell driver Jim Palmer with his ex Clark Lotus 32B Climax. Perched on the rear wheel is another Shell driver, Jackie Stewart. Taken from a colour print (very early one) taken by Jim & Pat Smith.
Rob Saward

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A very nice pic. Those 'Shell' on the tent colors amost overpower everything else.

#6476 Piquet959

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:43

You are correct with rewgard to the fact the cars never raced in that specification in the period 1964-1972.

The task that was undertaken was to get a set of suitable specifications to cover that period. It was to look at the 3 sets of regulations in that period and also both the Improved touring regulations and the Series Production regulations over an 8 year period and come up with a composite set of rules that would satisfy most, if not nearly all the persons, that would be involved at the time and into the future.

It was not an easy task and consumed a couple of forests and countless hours of meetings. Ask Bob Cracknell just how long it took!!!

As for my XU1 I accept that I cant be up the front cause its all about cubic dollars up there! But also a flat tappet cam engine is just not competitive against roller camed engines. 260-270 HP flat tappet as opposed to over 300 with a roller just isn't competitive.
cheers
peter


#6477 David McKinney

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 07:46

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The Wylie-Javelin?


#6478 ellrosso

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 07:51

Great period pics guys.

#6479 GMACKIE

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:08

We seem to be getting distracted debating suicide doors etc when this thread is supposed to be about photos of Australian Motor Racing, so here's a pic of a famous Australian Special enroute to Bathurst in 1958 but the towmaster, a side valve Morris Oxford with a full load of passengers and kit, has blown a radiator hose on the climb over the Blue Mountains. Meanwhile the crew await help.

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The Stewart MG?........That's the sort of tow car that Gordon would use. :rolleyes:


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#6480 cheapracer

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:32

There was a Dauphine Sports Sedan raced here .. I vaguely remember one around with a 16TS in it too.It may have even been the same car.


My Dad fitted a TS into a Dauphine (rally car) and thinks it may have been the first in Oz, may even be the same beast. I grew up in the back seat of Light 15's and 750's, Dad must have had something for French cars with suicide doors :lol:

In my car club days in the early 80's I can remember talk that both the Pervis Eureka and the Mini Moke were both being banned from competition but I never saw any paperwork to show it was actually a fact. The Eureka because if the door and the Moke for structural integrity.


A Female navigator was killed in an Oz rally in a Moke some years back, sideways into a tree and that's were the fuel tanks are with the obvious result sad to say, maybe had something to do with it.

#6481 Catalina Park

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 09:02

The thing with CAMS and banning was that nothing ever came in writing, it all came through the clubs CAMS delegate.

I had a friend flip his Pervis Eureka on the Amaroo dirt circuit. How do you get out of an upside down Eureka? Through the side window of course!

#6482 Dick Willis

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:00

Greg, that is indeed the Stewart MG under tow behind the Morris Oxford. It didn't fare much better at Bathurst that year as the Gordon Stewart designed fuel injection made it almost impossible to start on the dummy grid, not so bad in the paddock where it could get some speed up with a tow. The pic below shows Gordon peering into the injection trying to solve the mystery, the butterflies were laboriously built like the iris of a camera, must have taken someone months of work to complete. Their location these days is unknown but someone surely has them hanging on their wall as souvenir.

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#6483 GeoffR

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 11:53

A Female navigator was killed in an Oz rally in a Moke some years back

Very sad to hear of that. I did many rallies (late '70s), including a 24 hour state championship event, navigating in a 1275S engined Moke. Apart from the 'basic' seating and heating it wasn't such a bad thing. In the rougher sections that still appeared in Tassie events at the time it was much better than the 'convential' rally cars. It was also easy to put upright again when it fell on its side, although getting out through the canvas side curtains was not easy. In the end plastic fans and pine branches don't get along!


#6484 ellrosso

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:09

Few random pics.
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Lawrie Stewart Broadspeed S Warwick Farm Pic: Stuart Phillips

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#6485 GreenMachine

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:19

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Jackie taking time to do up his belts?

#6486 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:42

Pretty sure the co-driver had to run across and hand the driver the key...

All belted up as they sat there.

#6487 seldo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:57

Pretty sure the co-driver had to run across and hand the driver the key...

All belted up as they sat there.

Even though I was there (car 15 in last photo) I don't recall - I'm pretty sure there was some running involved but don't remember passing the key bit....

#6488 ellrosso

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:58

Here are another couple of pics which show the drivers lining up for the dash and the next shot getting into the cars and driving off. The wide shot shows how difficult the 250 LM was to get a quick getaway as it is way back in the pack - The FJ's on the other hand were well up towards the front! Excuse the shocker quality - these negs are just so knocked about.

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Harry Cape Triumph GT6 and Barnes/Leighton Cooper S also

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Ross Bond/Digby Cooke/Bill Stanley Healey 3000, Keran/Bond/Winkless Volvo P1800S

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#6489 wagons46

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:01

Pretty sure the co-driver had to run across and hand the driver the key...
All belted up as they sat there.


Could that have been 1966 ? I was there in 66 and can't recall, and I just read through the program........ that doesn't mention the start procedure either.




#6490 Repco22

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:50

Even though I was there (car 15 in last photo) I don't recall - I'm pretty sure there was some running involved but don't remember passing the key bit....

I can't remember which year 'run & jump' Le Mans starts were banned for the annual Caversham 6-Hour but the new procedure was; driver in car with hands on head, key in ignition but turned off, car in neutral with handbrake on. The runner would tap the driver on the shoulder and every car had an observer standing behind. The Hurricane V8's observer presumably more circumspect than the others. On two occasions drivers of that car selected reverse and backed into the fence! :rolleyes:


#6491 GMACKIE

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 08:23

It was 1962 or '63 when I drove in a 'Le Mans' start race at Catalina Park. The organisers were concerned about drivers not having their seat belts on correctly, so the drivers were in their cars with the belts done up, ready to go. A 'runner' [in my case, my brother-in law] ran across the track with the ignition key, and handed it to the driver.

Ron Hodgson, who was alongside me, was still trying to start his red-hot Mini while my daily-drive was long gone. It would surprise me to know that these procedures were relaxed in later years.

#6492 ellrosso

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:24

Yes it was definitely 1967 as I've checked the results etc (I 've got the AMS report on the race too). The feature Touring Car race at Longford in 1965 had a Le Mans start with drivers in the car and mechanic or whoever running the key over to them.

#6493 ellrosso

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:42

Stewart MG on track at Forest Elbow 1955

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#6494 seldo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 13:30

Here are another couple of pics which show the drivers lining up for the dash and the next shot getting into the cars and driving off.

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Yeah - that's pretty much as I recall it....We figured that we had an advantage because we were only using the standard Volvo lap-sash belt that utilised a hefty one-handed snap-shackle that clipped onto a fixed shackle on the tunnel next to the moulded rally-seat.

Edited by seldo, 05 February 2012 - 13:32.


#6495 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 20:04

And you could hear them snap shut above the din of the engines, right?

They were a hefty thing, Max still has them in his Volvo... I've used them many times...

#6496 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 23:18

The thing with CAMS and banning was that nothing ever came in writing, it all came through the clubs CAMS delegate.

I had a friend flip his Pervis Eureka on the Amaroo dirt circuit. How do you get out of an upside down Eureka? Through the side window of course!

It was in writing, wether it got into a CAMS Report I cannot remember. But the directive went through all the clubs and people were knocked back for log books as the cars were 'unsuitable'

#6497 seldo

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 00:50

And you could hear them snap shut above the din of the engines, right?

They were a hefty thing, Max still has them in his Volvo... I've used them many times...

They used to clip-on with a satisfying clunk akin to the closing of the breech on a 40 pound Armstrong artillery...

#6498 Repco22

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:02

Here are another couple of pics which show the drivers lining up for the dash and the next shot getting into the cars and driving off. The wide shot shows how difficult the 250 LM was to get a quick getaway as it is way back in the pack - The FJ's on the other hand were well up towards the front! Excuse the shocker quality - these negs are just so knocked about.

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The 250LM wasn't too bad off the mark on this occasion!
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Pics-D Waller.
Ron Thorp's Cobra has left the scene too. It was the '65 '6-Hour Le Mans' at Caversham. Dick Roberts' hot Valiant, Rod Donovan's Holden out wide from Bob Biltoft's Porsche, Murray Charnley's Elfin, Jeff Dunkerton's Seven and the Hurricane still to go--the Hurricane backwards. The red sports car is the Byfield Repco-Holden of a TNF cartoonist.
Apologies for the small pics.

#6499 ken devine

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:04

6hr start 1956





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#6500 ken devine

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:47

2 shots of the 1964 6hr start.




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