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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#651 seldo

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 16:04

Originally posted by rms
Rover, Fiat Topolino, Austin 7 Special

Quite Correct! I think it was Doug Whiteford that ran a supercharged Topolino in hillclimbs in the early '50s. It was of course only 500cc 4 cyl

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#652 bradbury west

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 18:32

O/T, David Piper turns up at the Revival every year in an immaculate Topolino, c/w wicker hamper on the boot rack, and parks it in the top corner of the paddock across from the fleet of his cars which grace the event.

Roger Lund

#653 Stan Patterson

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 07:25

Didn't Fred Astaire have hit in the 30's or 40's.."Dance the Topolino"?


damned if i know!

Stan

#654 Stan Patterson

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 07:40

re David Piper

What is generally forgotten these day is, that in March 1960, when the new World Champion and his T51 Cooper appeared at Phillip Island to do battle with Patterson, Stillwell and Miller, (sorry to harp), David Piper, whose much wanted-to-see Lotus 16 didnt appear, drove an ancient Cooper Bristol belonging to one Eddie Clay Esquire.

Stan

#655 Twin Window

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 10:58

Originally posted by Stan Patterson

These debates are fun...and informative

That's as maybe, but they don't belong in this thread.

#656 Terry Walker

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:24

Under the bonnett of (I think) the Decca Spl Mk 2, 1957 AGP. Don't you just love those two-barrel SU carbs.


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#657 Catalina Park

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:41

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Don't you just love those two-barrel SU carbs.

Yep. :cool:

#658 Stan Patterson

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:47

That's as maybe, but they don't belong in this thread .

Why not?

I am an aussie ...I was there..I saw it...in the heat and the cold and the mud... i understand the ethos... this about Au racing and the underlyimg implications.... the heroes.. my comments spring from experience and an understanding of our racing culture as generated by kaydees pics...i do not presume to comment on the underlying implications of 70's UK racing or things i have no understanding of....however, i do not shrink from expressing an opinion on matters upon which i am qualified to comment on ......"Gordon Brown Arrfur"

Perhaps you may be kind enough, from the UK, to tell me then where my life-long deep seated comments belong?

Much Obliged

Stan

(run a Rover 100
and a Rover P5B Coupe)

#659 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:55

Where you've put them before, Stan...

In threads about the relevant drivers, in threads about one driver versus another. Not in a picture thread of such wide diversity as this one.

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#660 Twister

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 12:16

Did the Decca 2 get an engine transplant.????
Chassis mods....... can't be the Decca .

#661 Terry Walker

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 12:36

I wasn't sure . . number plate on the truck suggests Victoria; steering wheel is red; wire spoke wheels, front engine...

Lotus XV?

#662 Twister

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 12:42

Now you have got me...I am new to this Historic stuff!
Kay DEE where are you?

#663 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 14:42

Must be the Jolly Lotus 15...

Aren't there other pics of it on this thread with the lid off?

#664 Twister

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 22:51

Yes Ray I found it.
But don't know how to copy and paste it.
Page 9 or 10 i think.

#665 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 23:18

Just click on 'quote' and post that...

#666 Twister

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 23:39

Originally posted by kaydee
Some photos from Collingrove Hill Climb in 1957 -

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Derek Jolly arriving with his Decca Special

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Coventry Climax engine in the Decca Special

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Patto in the Cooper Climax Bobtail

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Motorcycle and sidecar leaving the starting block at Collingrove Hill Climb.
A bit 'off topic' but shows the variety that we used to see...........


Thanks Ray for that tip....easy really...I feel a bit slow!
The Decca2

#667 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 23:44

Yeah, I used to be that way too...

That's actually the wrong car. We'll have to await Kevin, I fear.

#668 Twister

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 23:48

So its a twin cam 4 cyl.
Next guess!

#669 cosworth bdg

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 03:29

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Where you've put them before, Stan...

In threads about the relevant drivers, in threads about one driver versus another. Not in a picture thread of such wide diversity as this one.

Ray, very well put.....

#670 kaydee

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 04:48

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Under the bonnett of (I think) the Decca Spl Mk 2, 1957 AGP. Don't you just love those two-barrel SU carbs.

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Hi Terry,
Your photo above with the twin choke SU's is definitely Derek Jolly's Lotus 15 - not the Decca.
Unfortunately I can't find a photo of the Lotus engine bay taken from carburetor side.

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This is the best engine bay shot that I can find but at least does show many distinctive feature which are identical to your photo.

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For those interested in the fairly rare twin choke DU6(?) SU's this is a photo of them when I had them off the Lotus to service them.

#671 Terry Walker

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 09:36

1962 Six Hour, in the Caversham pits

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#672 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 11:24

When you think about it, I guess it had to be the Jolly 15, didn't it?

It can't have been the Matich 15, and I can't think of any other FPF engines in front engined sports cars in Australia. That's without consulting the Caversham programmes of course...

#673 Stan Patterson

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:29

Ray,

Didn't the front-engined McKay 1100cc Lola have an FPF climax in it?

Stan

#674 David Shaw

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:45

It was an FWA apparently. I think the FPFs went from about 2000cc upwards.

EDIT: The FPF went from 1500cc up.

#675 cosworth bdg

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:59

Factory FPF 1475cc to 1960 cc...

#676 kaydee

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 11:10

Seeing that we are on the subject of engines - does anyone know whose car this is and maybe where? I don't have any details - but I think that the photo was taken at a Tasman event - maybe Sandown?

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#677 Stan Patterson

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 11:28

Kaydee

Bandini's Scuderia Centro Stud Lowline Cooper Maserati ..Sandown 1963....I think

Stan

#678 NPP

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 11:33

Originally posted by Terry Walker
1962 Six Hour, in the Caversham pits

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I'll certainly reveal my complete ignorance by asking this - but how did the gearbox on this car work? Was it sequential?

NPP

#679 David McKinney

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 12:52

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Kaydee
Bandini's Scuderia Centro Stud Lowline Cooper Maserati ..Sandown 1963....I think
Stan

Not unless it was painted after leaving NZ - where it was definitely Italian Racing Red
Also. 1962 was the Bandini year
Definitely looks Cooper, though

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#680 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 13:35

Perhaps it's the Cicada BRM...

Certainly some bits look rough enough to fit in with Don's manner of doing things.


NPP... welcome to the discussion...

The Lotus 'Queerbox' as it became known was made by ZF especially for Lotus. It had a hollow mainshaft with some kind of engaging mechanism that moved from one gear to the next on demand. Not sequential in the modern idiom, nor like a motorcycle, but you'd have to say it is sequential.

This particular one was at some time incorrectly assembled. The gears went together with an number of spacers etc between them and someone got something out of sequence. It worked only if you were careful, so hurried gearchanges might lead to finding yourself in neutral.

Ultimately the cure was effected by Grant getting a spare housing and cutting it up so he could see inside and learn what was happening.

#681 bradbury west

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 13:59

Originally posted by kaydee

Hi Terry,
Your photo above with the twin choke SU's is definitely Derek Jolly's Lotus 15 - not the Decca.
Unfortunately I can't find a photo of the Lotus engine bay taken from carburetor side.

Posted Image
This is the best engine bay shot that I can find but at least does show many distinctive feature which are identical to your photo.

Posted Image
For those interested in the fairly rare twin choke DU6(?) SU's this is a photo of them when I had them off the Lotus to service them.


I am enthralled by the photos and the detailed recall of events, but the dates and models are confusing me. I thought the 15 came out in UK winter/spring 1958, Graham Hill @ Goodwood March meeting, so if it is 1957 on the photo it should be an 11 or the Decca; if it is a 15 it must be 1958 or later by the time a 15 got to Oz.

Roger Lund.

#682 NPP

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 14:27

Originally posted by Ray Bell

NPP... welcome to the discussion...

The Lotus 'Queerbox' as it became known was made by ZF especially for Lotus. It had a hollow mainshaft with some kind of engaging mechanism that moved from one gear to the next on demand. Not sequential in the modern idiom, nor like a motorcycle, but you'd have to say it is sequential.

This particular one was at some time incorrectly assembled. The gears went together with an number of spacers etc between them and someone got something out of sequence. It worked only if you were careful, so hurried gearchanges might lead to finding yourself in neutral.

Ultimately the cure was effected by Grant getting a spare housing and cutting it up so he could see inside and learn what was happening.


highly interesting, thanks. Was the same box used on the 60s GP cars - eg the Lotus 33 I "drive" in the GPL racing simulation? Then not having an H-pattern shifter but only a stick allowing for up- and downshifts might even be realistic ...

NPP

#683 Terry Walker

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 14:47

Bradbury West - you're right. The Lotus XV pics I posted were actually taken at the 1962 Six Hour race at Caversham. They came to me with many others for scanning, devoid of date, detail or order. I guessed wrong, thinking the engine pic was of the decca, which was at caversham in 1957.

Mea culpa!

#684 bradbury west

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 16:37

Terry, Prior to this thread I had only really known bits about Derek Jolly from various Lotus books or articles. Many of the regular heroes from Down Under were reasonably well known to me, albeit in many cases just as names and race results etc rather than in any real detail, ( and from your own CD Rom) but it is only now that I am realising just how significant the likes of D Jolly and many of the others were in period, and therefore in motorracing history. I am sure that there are many others outside Australia and NZ who are perhaps on the same learning curve.

Roger Lund.

#685 Peter Morley

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 17:08

Originally posted by NPP
highly interesting, thanks. Was the same box used on the 60s GP cars - eg the Lotus 33 I "drive" in the GPL racing simulation? Then not having an H-pattern shifter but only a stick allowing for up- and downshifts might even be realistic ...
NPP


Most the rear engined 60s GP cars used normal H pattern gearchanges.
Usually with Hewland style shift patterns e.g. first to the left and back, usually just used for starts, then you use 2nd to 5th as a normal 4 speed pattern.
Some used 6 speed Colottis which had an HH shift pattern.

Some Lotus 18s (or 18/21s) might still have used the Queerbox into 1960 or 61.
But the later Lotus single seaters used different gearboxes - works Lotuses usually used ZFs until 1967/68, others had Colottis and when Hewlands became readily available most people switched to them.

#686 kaydee

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 14:26

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Kaydee
Bandini's Scuderia Centro Stud Lowline Cooper Maserati ..Sandown 1963....I think
Stan

Stan, thanks for the clue. I've tracked down a photo of the Bandini, Scuderia Centro Sud Cooper T53 (chassis F1-13-61) and it's definitely not that car or the engine.
However, I think that Ray is on the money......

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Perhaps it's the Cicada BRM...
Certainly some bits look rough enough to fit in with Don's manner of doing things.

Ray, I've always thought that the photo was taken at a Tasman meeting - however in the light of your comment I've looked at some Mallala slides and the slide number matches with these. Therefore, I tend to agree that it is probably Don Fraser's car with the 4cyl BRM engine ...

#687 Stan Patterson

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 21:07

I am glad the mystery is solved.....

I never knew what the Cicada BRM was... I dont think it appeared in the Eastern states. If it was a lowline Cooper with a BRM engine why was wasnt it simply called a Cooper BRM?

I would be interested in seeing some more pics of this car and learning about its history. From what I recall it wasnt partucualry successful...any pics around?

Also Kaydee, pleaseeeeeeeeeee show us the Bandini Cooper Maser

Stan

#688 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 21:36

The only place I recall seeing the Cicada BRM was at Sandown, Stan...

I also have my reservations with those curved tubes. I'd like to find a pic of a BRM engine before concluding this is fact. Body panel colours are also wrong.

Was there ever a Cooper Maserati ran at Mallala, Kevin? What meeting does that fit in with numerically?

#689 Dick Willis

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 03:37

Ray and others,

I've found a good pic of a BRM engine on page 67 of D. Nye's BRM book, vol 2 which confirms that it is a BRM engine in the Cooper in the subject pic.

#690 cosworth bdg

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 04:45

Originally posted by Dick Willis
Ray and others,

I've found a good pic of a BRM engine on page 67 of D. Nye's BRM book, vol 2 which confirms that it is a BRM engine in the Cooper in the subject pic.

You are very correct.... :up:

#691 2Bob

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 08:03

According to "Historic Racing Cars in Australia" - John B. Blandon first published 1979, second edition 2004, the car would be Cooper Type 53 Chassis F1/2/61. The following is a brief edition of a longer article in this book.

Lex Davidson damaged the car at Longford, 2 March 1962 during practice. Davidson sold the car less engine to Don Fraser where Elfin repaired the car. The BRM engine (ex Arnold Glass) car was fitted. Fraser used the car for the following 2 years. In 2003 the car was taken to the UK for a season of racing in UK and Europe.

#692 cosworth bdg

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 08:57

Originally posted by 2Bob
According to "Historic Racing Cars in Australia" - John B. Blandon first published 1979, second edition 2004, the car would be Cooper Type 53 Chassis F1/2/61. The following is a brief edition of a longer article in this book.

Lex Davidson damaged the car at Longford, 2 March 1962 during practice. Davidson sold the car less engine to Don Fraser where Elfin repaired the car. The BRM engine (ex Arnold Glass) car was fitted. Fraser used the car for the following 2 years. In 2003 the car was taken to the UK for a season of racing in UK and Europe.

If this is the case , then why was it named a Cicada but sold as a Cooper, questions that need answers...

#693 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 11:53

As I said, I recall the Cicada BRM to have been a different colour...

So it was a different car. And by the way, that vestigal rollover bar under the genuine item is something that indicates it's not an Australian built car.

#694 Stan Patterson

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:12

And by the way, that vestigal rollover bar under the genuine item is something that indicates it's not an Australian built car.

Ray...I would suggest that small rollbar is in fact the support for the lowline Cooper rear rib/tailfin.


Stan

#695 Stan Patterson

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 21:29

This is interesting...

The engine is confirmed as BRM and the car has been confirmed as a lowline Cooper, then if so, it most be the only the second Cooper BRM ever made and one must also ask why was such a rather unpleasant name like Cicada chosen?

Rob Walker buit a T51 Coopr BRM for Stirling Moss early in 1959 and it was raced in the Aintree 200. A feature of the car was the long spaghetti type exhaust system required by the BRM engine to produce maximum power. It seems that the car in the pic has a conventional exhaust arrangement..hmmm.

I would have thought a lowline with a BRM engine would have been a rocketship...but maybe it appeared too late and I must say in the photgraph, the car's preparation could hardly be described as Whitefordesque !

Are there any more photgraphs of this singular vehicle and/or inofrmation of its race history?

Thanks

Stan

#696 David Shaw

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 23:37

Stan, if you re-read Ray's last post, he doesn't believe this is the Cicada.

#697 Stan Patterson

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 23:44

David,

If it is not the Cicada, what other BRM engined cars, and it certainly looks like a lowline Cooper from what we can see, were there in Australia at that time- apart, of course, from Arnold Glass' genuine article?

Stan

#698 David Shaw

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 00:30

I believe that what Ray is implying is that it is the BRM powered Cooper, and not the Cicada which was a different chassis altogether which had the same BRM engine transplanted into it.

According to the Blanden book, Don Fraser bought the wrecked Cooper from Davison in March 1962, had Elfin repair it, and dropped in the BRM engine that was acquired from Glass. He then ran it for two years before selling it as a rolling chassis to Ray Gibbs.

Checking my own Gold Star site, Fraser ran the Cooper at the 64 and 65 Mallala Gold Star rounds, and the Cicada at the 67 and 68 rounds, with the chassis# listed as '3'.

#699 kaydee

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 02:45

Thanks everybody for helping to resolve the "mystery" car / engine photo.
The sequence number of that particular slide / date fits in with other photos that I took at Mallala around October '63 and therefore I've little doubt now that this is Don Fraser's Cooper BRM as described by 2Bob. (It does however seem strange that BRM didn't put their name on the engine's cam covers)

Whilst I don't have the program for that particular meeting I do have an April '65 program that lists Don as driving the Cooper BRM. (I'm pretty sure that the Cicada was a seperate and later car).

For Stan - here is a link to photos of the the purported Scuderia Centro Sud, Bandini T53Cooper-Maserati -
http://forums.autosp... t53#post832764 - (I hope this works?)

- the relevant photos are of Freddy Struen's car and are the last 3 of a rather long #32 post .
You will see that the 4 cyl 250S Maserati engine is quite different to the BRM engine.

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#700 kaydee

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 09:55

Three more engine photos - this time in B&W.
I don't have any record of the cars or the meeting(s). It is most likely that all of the photos were taken at the one meeting? Any clues?

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Ferrari V6
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Ford FVA
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BRM V12