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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#3201 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:14

Not my photo, in fact I don't know who took it...

From the personal collection of the driver, Warwick Farm in the late sixties. I think it's a really good pic:

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#3202 David McKinney

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:20

Probably he best picture I've seen of him in that car - and it was a New Zealand car!

#3203 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:56

Yes, the photo is so good it borders on outstanding...

There's a lot of commitment in that car at that moment.

#3204 David Shaw

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 11:55

Probably the 1967 AGP, as it wouldn't have made many appearances here, and the tyres look about the right size for then. Of course it didn't appear the next year.





EDIT: Grammar

Edited by David Shaw, 22 December 2009 - 11:56.


#3205 Terry Walker

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 12:48

The colour is almost completely lost, but I managed to retrieve some. An expert could probably bring back more.

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#3206 David McKinney

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 15:35

I did much the same - though my armco's not quite so green :)

#3207 Lola5000

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 00:06

About to pick up a large amount of photos from my father of '50s racing including the Albert Park years,AGP and the '58 event.
Only issue I think some of the professional photos the orginals may have been sold on to others.
Question is do I have a right to share photos my father would have bought over 50 years ago?
yours Rob Bailey ,Kew.

#3208 David Shaw

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 10:26

I believe that as far as Australian photos are concerned, 50 years is the limit of the copyright.

#3209 Lola5000

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 10:42

I believe that as far as Australian photos are concerned, 50 years is the limit of the copyright.

Thankyou David,then i will post when I have them.Having said that gets up my nose when people claim copyright of photos of a owners car,whom pay wish to post/print the photos if one has paid for the copy.

#3210 Allen Brown

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 13:00

About to pick up a large amount of photos from my father of '50s racing including the Albert Park years,AGP and the '58 event.
Only issue I think some of the professional photos the orginals may have been sold on to others.
Question is do I have a right to share photos my father would have bought over 50 years ago?
yours Rob Bailey ,Kew.

If you father took the pictures then the copyright is his, even if he sold the original pictures. Copyright in Australia has to be transferred in writing. Also,it continues for 50 years following the year of the creator's death, not from the date the photograph was taken. So you can use them if he took them. However, any photos he bought that were taken in 1958 are almost certainly still under copyright - unless the photographer died very shortly after taking them.

#3211 David McKinney

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 15:54

... gets up my nose when people claim copyright of photos of a owners car,whom pay wish to post/print the photos if one has paid for the copy.

Ownership of the subject of an intellectual property - a landscape painting of a mountain or a photograph of a car - is irrelevant.
I can - and frequently do - buy prints of photographs for my private collection. But if I wanted to publish them I would expect to pay an additional reproduction fee to the copyright-holder

Edited by David McKinney, 25 December 2009 - 15:55.


#3212 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 21:17

Is it not right, however, that we can post pictures here as long as we acknowledge the copyright?

Seems I remember that from somewhere, and it certainly seems to be done frequently...

#3213 Allen Brown

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 21:47

Is it not right, however, that we can post pictures here as long as we acknowledge the copyright?

Seems I remember that from somewhere, and it certainly seems to be done frequently...

Some people have claimed "Fair Use" on pictures. I'm not qualified to comment on whether their claims are valid but I'd be very surprised if they are. Maybe you can get away with it if the picture is low-res and it is used so that we can comment on something specific in the picture - such as a rare HWM picture allowing us to see the number of louvres. Maybe!

EDIT: I have never claimed fair use on any picture I've used on OldRacingCars.com.

Edited by Allen Brown, 25 December 2009 - 21:48.


#3214 Lola5000

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 21:55

Thankyou for your help,its a hard one as many of his photos are well worth posting,but I am lead to understand they have been taken by a professional whom at the time worked at the "The Argus' paper.
The others are from the '58 Albert park and are I think Herald Sun shots showing the two Cussos of my father and Norm B parked along side each other.
Also a lot of photos of various hillclimbs and Fishermans bend?

#3215 David McKinney

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 22:54

Is it not right, however, that we can post pictures here as long as we acknowledge the copyright?

Not as I understand it
You have to have the permission of the copyright-holder


#3216 Terry Walker

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 06:49

If the photographer was working for Argus at the time, and the pics were taken in the course of his employment by Argus, copyright probably rests with Argus or whoever owns Argus now. Just because it is defunct doesn't mean no-one owns it.

When I did Around the Houses in the late 70s, I got permission from the then owners of Australian Motor Sports, by then long defunct as a publication, to use some of their pics by copying them from the magazine. Their reply was basically, yeah, no worries, go for it. Who actually took the pics was then a mystery, but I now know its probably a well-known WA amateur photographer of the late 40s and early 50s, and copyright in his work now rests with a W A motoring historian who bought it up, and who is happily well known to me and not distressed about their publication by me so long ago. Who owns the actual copyright of the ones of his printed in the magazine depends, in a very complicated way, on the terms the original photographer supplied them way back then, which are unknown now and probably forever unknowable.

It's an area full of pitfalls.

Lots of people believe that a photo published on the Net is now in the public domain. Why they believe this is a mystery to me, because even the dimmest can grasp that DVD movies, and music CDs, just because they are published, are not in the public domain. And of course a book, published and on sale in your bookshop, isn't free for anyone to steal.



#3217 ken devine

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 02:20

Here is one i have pondered for awhile. A graphic artist paints a mural which is displayed in a museum, i take a photographe of the
mural , as the mural was made in sections the joins are showing i have these joins taken out in photoshop which repairs the mural.
i the gave a copy of the improved photo to a publisher for the cover of the magazine, another party then copies this cover and
frames them and sells them. My question is who owns the copyright of the photo?
PS the photo was shown in this thread in 2007.

#3218 Terry Walker

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 04:55

Nice one.

If I make an oil painting from a photograph, the copyright in the painting rests with me.

If I photograph a painting, the copyright of that photo rests with me.

But there are exceptions: eg me taking a photo of someone else's photo: copyright stays with the original, you're just copying it without any original work of your own.

Your mural if in a public place - York Motor Museum I remember - is probably copyright by the museum, your processed photo is your copyright, and if the Museum doesn't like you posting it, it can try to sue; but that's not practical.

It's an interesting area of copyright law, and varied dramatically over the world. Does the guy who styled, say, the original Corvette, own the copyright of every photo of it? Definitely not. Does the estate of the late Marilyn Monroe own the copyright of every photo taken of her? Certainly not.





#3219 David McKinney

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 07:56

This is a very interesting one
I keep saying I'm not an expert on coyright law, but have had to pick up a bit during a lifetime of writing
I would say the key term is "intellectual property". Marilyn Monroe, in spite of what we might think, was not a work of art, so no-one's "intellectual property" as such. If I take a photo of her, the result is my intellectual property and I can do what I like with it.
The design of the Chevrolet Corvette was the intellectual property of a group of persons - or more like, as they would have been employees - of a Corporation. But the items that poured of GM production lines were not themselves intellectual property. Again, snap away to your heart's content.
The mural in question is an "intellectual property", the rights of which rest with the artist or, by agreement, with the museum. If it's on public display, you must be allowed to photograph it, though you wouldn't be allowed to publish the result in a book. A photoshopped version would be your intellectual property, but I suspect if you published it you might find yourself open to charges of plagiarism.
Anyone copying the magazine cover would certainly be breaching copyright - either yours or the magazine's, depending on your agreement - but the question of the magazine's right to use it remains.
And I repeat this is only an opinion - and not a lawyer's one :)

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#3220 Ted Walker

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 08:44

Do these photographs have any copyright stamps on them ????.

#3221 Terry Walker

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 09:46

They don't need it. Copyright is inherent (at least in Australian and presumably UK and USA law, which has a similar basis). You take a photo, you own the rights. You can sell them, if you like, or assign them, or rent them out. Most pros licence their pictures for specific use, eg, once only in Wheels Magazine, if they want to use it again they have to pay again.

Same with books. I've had 3 published, and they are all mine. I "licenced" Around the Houses to Racing Car News in 1980, and under the standard comntract, if it's not reprinted within a certain time copyright reverts to me. And it has. Fast Tracks was published by a small concern whose owner has retired and will it never be reprinted by them, so copyright has reverted to me. Murder on the Rabbit Proof Fence is still in print, but is unlikely to be reprinted (glaciers move more rapidly than sales of my books!).

It's worthwhile, if you're posting pics on the web, to watermark any pictures you value and don't want to see stolen for someone else's profit.

The simplest method, or more accurately the only way I know with my ancient software, is to add another "layer" to the pic, which is say 15 percent opaque, and then type in bold type Terry Walker right in the centre, and merge the layers. The words appear as a shadowy text on the pic, and can be hard to remove from plagiarised copies. Lots of modern image processing software has a mass watermarking routine to make it much easier. It doesn't prove copyright, by the way, just makes it easier to spot a stolen image.

Edited by Terry Walker, 27 December 2009 - 09:47.


#3222 ken devine

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 23:15

Terry i think you know the mural i am reffering to it is the 1957 AGP start on the wall of the WA motor Museum at whiteman Park.
After i posted i remembered this was copied from the B/w photo of the start and the artist told me he painted the colours in from memory.I have a copy of an original colour photo of the start unfortunatly it is slightly blurred.

#3223 Guy Miller

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 22:51

Posted Image
A couple more photos

#3224 Guy Miller

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 22:53

Posted Image

#3225 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:13

Great pics, Guy!

I assume the first is at Sandown and the second at Albert Park?

#3226 Ellis French

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 04:06

Guy may not have mentioned it but his late Father , Austin Miller, is proposed to be inducted into the Tasmanian Motorsport Hall of Fame in Feb 2010. A worthy inductee.

Ellis

#3227 cooper997

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 06:50

Ray's correct with his locations.

Guy's photo of #31 would appear to be from the Opening Sandown Park 'International' meeting - March 11 - 12, 1962. As they head from the original pit area to the startline (they would have had to turn the Cooper 180 degrees to race the correct direction though).

#60 is the 'Miller Special' at either the 'First Day' November 23, 1958 Albert Park or the 'Second Day' November 30, 1958 meeting. Alas the final Albert Park of the era (and where they raced the correct direction).

Stephen

#3228 David Shaw

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:39

I love the second photo. You wouldn't fit a cigarette paper between the tyre and kerb.

#3229 peter grey

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:45

Probably he best picture I've seen of him in that car - and it was a New Zealand car!

I've been trying to not need to show my ignorance but...... who is the driver? and which NZ car is this??

#3230 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:14

Paul Bolton...

The Brabham-Climax 2.5 belonged to Rorstan Racing, he drove it for a season and a half or something.

How did you like the 'Charmers' thread? Got into areas you didn't expect?

#3231 peter grey

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:36

Paul Bolton...

The Brabham-Climax 2.5 belonged to Rorstan Racing, he drove it for a season and a half or something.

How did you like the 'Charmers' thread? Got into areas you didn't expect?

Yeah it did. A bit of toilet humour you might say.

#3232 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:40

Now for you to look up the one entitled 'Did Jim Clark meet the Beatles?'...

This is essential for your education in TNF. Where are you from?

#3233 terry mcgrath

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 13:12

A couple of points on copyright and subject image.
NLA has some interesting statements on books and photos and given that I can read and understand it, means its probably meaningless!
Interestingly if what is written is remotely correct or relates to what I think it says the book we did back in 1985 is out of copyright this year!
Then of course you get the other favourite this says Australian copyright Act and you can bet your bottom dollar every other county will have another slant on it.
Items that possibly effect photographers for example in a lot of books from France the registration numbers on cars are erased as I believe there are privacy related laws on taking a picture of someones car at a carshow/public street and then printing the picture in a book or magazine - can anyone shed any light on this?

What irks me most of all here in Australia If I take a photo of "Rottnest Island" a small Island just of the coast of perth I cannot then use this picture say taken from my boat in any publicity advertising material without paying a fee to some bunch of thieves sorry beaurocrats and worst of all Australia's national natural icon "Ayres rock" falls under the same category, you can photograph it from a plane and put the pics in your own album but not use them without paying a fee to use the pic in an add for brick paving or an tourist brochure etc!
Any thoughts from anyone on this
regards terry

the notes below are taken from National libarary of Australia web site http://www.nla.gov.a..._copyright.html
Books
For published editions of works the duration is only 25 years from the end of the year of that publication.

Photos
Duration of copyright
The Australian Copyright Act defines a variety of periods of copyright protection. The main category that applies to the National Library's Pictures Collection is:
Life of creator plus 70 years, for Artistic works
Photographs taken after 1955
Photographs taken before 1955 are all out of copyright.

Edited by terry mcgrath, 12 January 2010 - 13:15.


#3234 peter grey

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 13:23

Now for you to look up the one entitled 'Did Jim Clark meet the Beatles?'...

This is essential for your education in TNF. Where are you from?

mmmmmm..... definitely some important information in there Ray. How have I made it to my age without knowing all that??!!
I'm originally from NZ (for the first 22 years) then Aus (for the next 33) and have been living in Hong Kong and China for the last five years. Born in Invercargill actually. My dad was one of the Southland Sports Car Club members who built Teretonga. The civil engineer who designed it was his trials (rally) navigator.

#3235 Guy Miller

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:17

Great pics, Guy!

I assume the first is at Sandown and the second at Albert Park?

Quite right Ray 1962 at Sandown and I think it was 1958 at Albert Park

Ray. I'll bet you can't guess where this is

Guy
Posted Image

Edited by Guy Miller, 17 January 2010 - 22:06.


#3236 JimBradshaw

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 03:38

A couple of miscellenaous pictures I have discoverd which i hope will be of interest:

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Derek Jolly 2 litre Lotus XV, Sandown March 1962

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Beechey and Jane, Calder 1963

JB

#3237 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 23:00

Quite right Ray 1962 at Sandown and I think it was 1958 at Albert Park

Ray. I'll bet you can't guess where this is

Guy
Posted Image

That is a stunning pic of determination and agression. My guess a hillclimb somewhere.

#3238 Stephen W

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 11:56

Posted Image


That is a stunning pic of determination and agression.


Guy, what a great picture! Those blokes on the bank had a fantastic vantage point! :wave:

#3239 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 20:50

Penguin or Poatina? Don't think it would be the Domain.

I must have been away somewhere whent his was originally posted, sorry...

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#3240 Ian G

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 00:35

Guy, what a great picture! Those blokes on the bank had a fantastic vantage point! :wave:


Yeah,Dick Johnson's rock springs to mind thou,i've seen a similar photo taken from further up the hill showing the corner and the vantage point but have forgotten the location but its been posted on a site i've visited in my travels so may run across it again.






#3241 Guy Miller

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 21:30

Penguin or Poatina? Don't think it would be the Domain.

I must have been away somewhere whent his was originally posted, sorry...



Quite close Ray. It was the 1959 Trevallyn Hill Climb just outside Launceston. FTD as well. One of the fellows sitting on the bank is Randall Langdon delegate CAMS Tassy I believe. Would not be allowed to do that sort of thing these days?

Guy

#3242 Ellis French

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:07

Quite close Ray. It was the 1959 Trevallyn Hill Climb just outside Launceston. FTD as well. One of the fellows sitting on the bank is Randall Langdon delegate CAMS Tassy I believe. Would not be allowed to do that sort of thing these days?

Guy



Guy
I think its a bit early to be Randall. I asked him and he would have only been about 6 yrs old at the time
Ellis

#3243 Guy Miller

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 23:13

Guy
I think its a bit early to be Randall. I asked him and he would have only been about 6 yrs old at the time
Ellis



Hi Ellis

Pretty big fella for 6 yrs old

Guy

#3244 Wirra

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 21:27

For my mind they can't match the nostalgia of Guy's classic images but a new thread on F5000 inspired me to dig out these old snaps.
Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#3245 Wirra

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 01:46

Ray - I thought you might like this one... particularly the Simca. Oran Park in the early sixties is my guess.

Posted Image
It's my brother in the Fiat.


#3246 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 10:08

If it's about '65, that should be Ray Scanlen (Scanlan?) in the Simca Monthlery...

Black with a silver flash along the side. He never ventured far in that car, just local races from memory.

#3247 donharper

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 01:22

KB or someone with the knowledge.
I am trying to find the Chassis number KB used at the Rose City 10000 in 1977. I can find stuff for everything else , except that.
HU22-3 keeps appearing a lot in other instances ; but I just wanted to be sure.

#3248 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 03:49

That was October 30, two weeks after the Calder round of the Gold Star...

Surely it would have been the same car as he'd run right through that series? As far as I know, and I admit I might not know everything about those times, KB only ever had the one T400. He finished the first two rounds and blew the engine at Calder, no chassis damage at all, so very unlikely he'd change for the Winton race.

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 March 2010 - 09:32.


#3249 David McKinney

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 06:30

Ray's right about the T400, which was HU-1

However, KB did revert to a T332 for some 1977 events, a former Bruce Allison car which I believe was HU16

#3250 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 09:07

Here are the 1977 Rose City "10,000" results. I believe Bartlett drove his T400 at that race although he had, as David says, used his T332 earlier in the season.

The T332 is a complex car. It had started life as T330 HU22 but had been rebuilt as a T332 after Bartlett's accident at Pukekohe 12 Jan 1974 and again after Bruce Allison's accident at Oran Park 1 Feb 1976. That's why I call it HU22-3 thereafter. However, it habitually wore the chassis plate from Bartlett's previous T300 HU16, presumably to avoid import tax when it was originally bought.