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Personal photos of Australian motor racing '50s to '70s


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#4651 Ellis French

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:25

My first thought was, "David McKay"!

David did not enter this race and was awaiting delivery of the car Jack was driving in this event. I have no idea of why he might have been trying out Youl's Cooper, but it does look like him.

I did e.mail Geoff Smedley about it, but he didn't respond. He's too shaken up by the news that Symmons Plains has been offered for sale for subdivision.




The same photo in cropped format is on "Old race pics".
Its shown as John Youl and sure looks like him.
Ellrosso may have some info on the shot.

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#4652 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 06:12

Originally posted by Ellis French
Symmons Plains the old farm property ..not Symmons Plains the race track.

Its been for sale for a month or so in 1 or 2 parts ...the house and a 100 acres ? or so and the remainder of the farm or sold as a whole.

The adjoining track and its land are owned by Motor Sports Tas. along with Baskerville.


Yes, Ellis, the farm...

116 acres around the house, for sale separately or together with 2000 acres of farmland.

Remember that Geoff has a closer affinity with the family than the racing circuit, that's not the issue. Recall some months ago he posted that he'd been to the old workshop and everything was still just as he'd left it in 1964?

#4653 David McKinney

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 06:54

My first thought was, "David McKay"!

Mine too. But it didn't fit with my thoughts about the driver (whoever) sitting too high. DM surely wasn't as tall as JY...


#4654 KarlLeFong

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:08

Mine too. But it didn't fit with my thoughts about the driver (whoever) sitting too high. DM surely wasn't as tall as JY...


The "body language" is David Mckay but it if so...it begs the questions.. why was he trying Youl's T55 and where was the ex-Atkins/Mclaren T51?

Karl

#4655 john medley

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:38

Old enthusiasts, old enthusiasts...

My first instinctive reaction was " David McKay"
... something about the stance
.....something about the Herbie Johnson
.....something about the face, barely seen

Without even thinking, really, my visceral reaction to the odd height matter, was that David, shorter than John Youl, was propped, not only UNDER his bottom, but BEHIND his back. Dont forget, they took things SO seriously then.... in a sort of amateur way....and that's the way they would do it

I met both DMcK and JY and I agree with David McKinney( almost as usual) -- there was a height difference which can be can be explained thus...

Are there other possibilities? Sure



#4656 KarlLeFong

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:48

Old enthusiasts, old enthusiasts...

My first instinctive reaction was " David McKay"
... something about the stance
.....something about the Herbie Johnson
.....something about the face, barely seen

Without even thinking, really, my visceral reaction to the odd height matter, was that David, shorter than John Youl, was propped, not only UNDER his bottom, but BEHIND his back. Dont forget, they took things SO seriously then.... in a sort of amateur way....and that's the way they would do it

I met both DMcK and JY and I agree with David McKinney( almost as usual) -- there was a height difference which can be can be explained thus...

Are there other possibilities? Sure


By a process of deduction it has to D Mckay

Who else would YL let out in that exquisite car?

The question remains ..WHY?

and by the way, what does visceral mean?

Karl

#4657 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:55

Don't worry about 'visceral'...

Think about the previous AGP at Caversham. Hot, so hot that drivers were pitting to get water over them or to change drivers.

Is it possible that McKay got a couple of laps in practice so he could take over if Youl felt the heat?

#4658 KarlLeFong

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:06

Don't worry about 'visceral'...

Think about the previous AGP at Caversham. Hot, so hot that drivers were pitting to get water over them or to change drivers.

Is it possible that McKay got a couple of laps in practice so he could take over if Youl felt the heat?


Good answer Ray..makes sense.

Was it a hot weekend?

#4659 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:42

It was when Jack hit Carnal Arnold...

But it was November in Perth, that should really answer the question. Whatever the individual day turned out like, it had the promise that it could be very hot.

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#4660 ken devine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:31

The John Youl shot and the other colour shots that i have just put up were taken by my life long friend Milton McCutcheon and is the
same one on the Old Race Photos site which i supplied.

Edited by ken devine, 17 February 2011 - 09:32.


#4661 ken devine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:40

Does this help? John Youl going out to practice.


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#4662 ken devine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:43

John Youl during the race on the hairpin.



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#4663 cooper997

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:07

The "body language" is David Mckay but it if so...it begs the questions.. why was he trying Youl's T55 and where was the ex-Atkins/Mclaren T51?

Karl


Karl,

The Cooper chassis was bent, McKay hit the loo at Warwick Farm on October 14th, 1962 Hordern Trophy meeting. And wasn't fixed for the AGP 4 weeks later.

So by AGP time in Perth he climbed on a plane to go and view Brabham's Repco-Brabham and McLaren's T62 Cooper with the view to a possible purchase of one of them, before the Victorian's stole the march on him. He did a deal with Brabham that would see him have it for the next AGP at Warwick Farm on February 10, 1963.

At this time, Youl & McKay were working together under the SV banner and hence its quite plausible David went for a lap or two.

Stephen

#4664 David McKinney

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:10

You are both, of course, talking about the ex-Atkins/McLaren T53 :)

#4665 KarlLeFong

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:27

Karl,

The Cooper chassis was bent, McKay hit the loo at Warwick Farm on October 14th, 1962 Hordern Trophy meeting. And wasn't fixed for the AGP 4 weeks later.

So by AGP time in Perth he climbed on a plane to go and view Brabham's Repco-Brabham and McLaren's T62 Cooper with the view to a possible purchase of one of them, before the Victorian's stole the march on him. He did a deal with Brabham that would see him have it for the next AGP at Warwick Farm on February 10, 1963.

At this time, Youl & McKay were working together under the SV banner and hence its quite plausible David went for a lap or two.

Stephen


Stephen,

You are absolutely correct ..I had forgotten the SV connection..well done old boy!

I am sure we all knew the loo damaged SV Lowline was a T53.... thanks for the correction David.

Karl

#4666 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:28

I didn't think there was that much damage to the Cooper in the incident at Polo...

But I would never have known in those days, even if I had a close look at the car, as it was my first-ever race meeting. And yes, the Scuderia Veloce connection was there, though I thought John Youl was out of it by that time.

On the subject of David sitting high in the car, perhaps he is still adjusting to get a comfortable position as he's leaving the pits? You often saw drivers doing things like this in those pre-belt days.

Anyway, the whole thing is a great demonstration that TNF turns up some interesting stuff on a regular and continuing basis, a good reason for looking closely at the pics.

#4667 David Shaw

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:32

I have probably shown these before but they are worth revisiting. Davison,Patterson,Youl.1962 AGP.



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To me this is a wonderful comparison between 2 generations of racing cars. Those in front a bit more stout and sure footed under brakes, the T55 more spindly and spider-like and not as adept at pointing at the corner's turn in point. But a serious weapon and probably arriving at a greater speed.

#4668 David McKinney

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:59

I didn't think there was that much damage to the Cooper in the incident at Polo...

The chassis was bent, at least

#4669 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 17:14

Now I have a real problem...

This is Sandown's Gold Star meeting of '79 and I need to know who's in the blue car. In fact, I need to know what kind of car the blue one is too! I'm thinking it's a McRae GM1 with a Kiwi driving, but I'm open to all offers.

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Edited by Ray Bell, 17 February 2011 - 17:16.


#4670 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 17:39

It's a Begg FM5 Ray. Isn't that Alan Nitschke?

#4671 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 18:27

It's a Begg FM5 Ray. Isn't that Alan Nitschke?

Sure is , with John Smith RT1 outside him.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 February 2011 - 18:28.


#4672 ellrosso

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 20:32

Another caption to change re the McKay Cooper shot - well done TNF'rs!

#4673 ellrosso

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 21:05

Ellis, is that the end of the Youl/Symmons Plains era? None of the kids wanted to keep the farm going at all? That's certainly the end of one of the longest single family
owned properties in Tassy I'd imagine - very early 1800's from memory. It was an enormous property in its hey day too.
Thanks also for Carosi contact - haven't got there yet.


#4674 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 23:18

Originally posted by Allen Brown
It's a Begg FM5 Ray. Isn't that Alan Nitschke?


Begg was, of course, my second guess...

But Nitschke I wouldn't have thought of. Nevertheless, I don't understand why it isn't mentioned in any way in the race report, grid or results. Is it possible this isn't the Gold Star race of '79?

As for the McKay Cooper caption, let's hold off until I can get confirmation from Geoff.

#4675 brucemoxon

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 23:24

Begg was, of course, my second guess...

But Nitschke I wouldn't have thought of. Nevertheless, I don't understand why it isn't mentioned in any way in the race report, grid or results. Is it possible this isn't the Gold Star race of '79?

As for the McKay Cooper caption, let's hold off until I can get confirmation from Geoff.



Maybe the Rothmans Series race? Or were they one and the same?

Ray, do you need any current F5000 photos?



Bruce Moxon

#4676 ken devine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 23:47


David McKay inspects Bruce McLarens car, photo by P.Longley.


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#4677 ken devine

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 23:50


Rear end shot.



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#4678 Wilyman

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:14

David McKay inspects Bruce McLarens car, photo by P.Longley.


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With the Repco Alta rear wheel in the background?

#4679 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:22

Originally posted by brucemoxon
Maybe the Rothmans Series race? Or were they one and the same?

Ray, do you need any current F5000 photos?


To be honest, Bruce, I didn't look far...

The pic was in a batch from the '79 September Gold Star meeting, Smith was at that, he wasn't at the February meeting (I did check, it wasn't 'Rothmans' any more either) but the Begg was. No mention whatever of Nitschke in the grid, results or race report.

And no, Bruce, I don't think we want any current F5000 stuff. But we do need colour from Wanneroo's '79 AGP, I see Terry Walker has some on his website too.

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#4680 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 02:44

Not too sure if this should be in the 'dangerous-looking racing cars' thread, perhaps? :lol:

In the early '60s I ran a VW Beetle in Appendix J touring car races at Oran Park, Warwick Farm, Catalina, and various hillclimbs.

As I have only a couple of photos, it would be nice to see any others. There was one in particular that I am keen to see again - it was myself [VW], Ron Hodgson [Mini], and Frank Kleinig Jr. [Mini], side-by-side, at 45 degrees to the track at Craven A corner at Catalina, in the wet.

Greg

Edited by GMACKIE, 18 February 2011 - 02:45.


#4681 cooper997

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 03:05

Ray,

From the September 9th, 1979 Sandown programme. (This meeting also held the Hang Ten 400 for the Group C Tourers).

'Rothmans 10,000' - Round 3 Australian Formula One Championship for the 1979 CAMS Gold Star - Event 8, 40 laps, 12.05pm. No - 13 Driver - Allan Nitschke Entrant - A R Nitschke Car - Begg FM5/2 Colour Blue Capacity - 5000

And the February 4th, 1979 Sandown was known as the 'Rothmans International Series'. Nitschke is not a listed driver at that meeting.

Stephen

#4682 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 03:10

Thanks for that, Stephen...

Funny that he's not mentioned on the grid or in the report!

He is listed at both 1980 meetings.

#4683 cooper997

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 03:43

Ray,

His details in both 1980 Sandown F5000 meetings remain identical to what I listed for 1979. Newsweek magazine was the naming rights sponsor for the February 24th, 1980 International race.

Nitschke isn't listed in the (unsponsored) February 22nd, 1981 Sandown. But he is an entrant in the September 13th meeting, carrying #7 with other details the same as previous.

Stephen

#4684 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 04:00

The identifying mark, Stephen, is that John Smith is in the photo...

He wasn't there at the other meetings. And, as I mentioned, the photo was in a batch from the September '79 meeting. It's just that the report doesn't mention him.

#4685 Geoff Smedley

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:05

John Youl during the race on the hairpin.



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#4686 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:07

Thanks for that, Stephen...

Funny that he's not mentioned on the grid or in the report!

He is listed at both 1980 meetings.


Which report Ray? I can't recall what magazines were being published in 1979 but I have him as a non-qualifier (with a time of 1m 17.7s). All my stuff is in a storage unit at the moment as we're having some building work done so I won't be able to dig this out for you very easily.

I recall Barry Lake kindly sending me the unpublished text of Cars & Drivers 4 so I may have got it from there.

#4687 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:46

For the most part, Allen, I have Racing Car News...

My collection basically covers everything from late '63 through to the eighties. For AGP events I also have the AGP book.

1:17.7 seems likely with John Smith rounding him up on the outside of Dandenong like that!

And on the other matter:

Originally posted by ken devine
John Youl AGP62.

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Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Ken,

I never saw John Youl wear a "Herbie Johnson" in that car ..that is an intruging picture..

Stan


The story is simple, but you would never have guessed it!

The pic, according to Geoff Smedley, was probably taken on Friday. He's pretty sure it wasn't official practice.

John and his wife were staying in a motel and John headed out to the circuit without her. What he didn't realise was that he'd also left his helmet behind, so when it came time to take the car for a run he had to borrow one.

Whether it was David McKay's or not is not recalled. In due course his wife arrived with his own helmet and so he resumed practice with that.

#4688 275 GTB-4

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:51

Not too sure if this should be in the 'dangerous-looking racing cars' thread, perhaps? :lol:

In the early '60s I ran a VW Beetle in Appendix J touring car races at Oran Park, Warwick Farm, Catalina, and various hillclimbs.

As I have only a couple of photos, it would be nice to see any others. There was one in particular that I am keen to see again - it was myself [VW], Ron Hodgson [Mini], and Frank Kleinig Jr. [Mini], side-by-side, at 45 degrees to the track at Craven A corner at Catalina, in the wet.

Greg


Greg...have you tried sites like Autopics? and maybe Vintage speedway (the blacktop albums) Cheers, Mick

#4689 David McKinney

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 13:12

Thanks Ray

Proof that none of us knows what we're talking about :lol:

#4690 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 18:24

Proof that it pays to ask...

The good thing is that Geoff's there to ask. What's more, though he didn't refer to it when I phoned him, he did keep a diary of everything to do with the car and retains that to this day... and the helmet issue is mentioned in that diary.

If you look at the posts about when he fitted the second magneto and dual spark plug arrangement to the John Youl engine, you'll get a glimpse of the skills that Geoff applied when he was in the business and the little reminders he has kept of those times. The Howard head as well, which is in one of the threads about 105E engines, he posted pics of the little sales brochure they had.

I visited him about six years ago when I went to Tasmania and I will certainly go and see him again if I get the opportunity. I was just a kid when I used to haunt Matich's workshop and spend time talking to him, and when he was with the Howard & Sons team, but I have a clear recollection of his fastidious approach to things.

Anyway, he'll be taking his camera around to Symmons Plains some time in the near future and getting a comprehensive array of photos of the workshop where he used to fettle the Youl Cooper. He said, when he was there after John Youl's funeral, that the place was untouched since he walked out and closed the doors when John sold the Cooper, there will be an abundance of reminders of those times when he gets the pics.

I'm pretty sure he'll share them with us too, but I wonder if it might be better to start a fresh thread with them rather than add them in amongst the wide range of stuff here?

#4691 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 20:13

Greg...have you tried sites like Autopics? and maybe Vintage speedway (the blacktop albums) Cheers, Mick

Thanks Mick, I've tried them - Autopics had a couple of photos from my F.Vee and Sports Sedan days, but nothing from the early '60s.

After seeing some of the things that show up here, it's possible that something may turn up. Here's hoping! Cheers, Greg.


#4692 cooper997

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 21:28

Not too sure if this should be in the 'dangerous-looking racing cars' thread, perhaps? :lol:

In the early '60s I ran a VW Beetle in Appendix J touring car races at Oran Park, Warwick Farm, Catalina, and various hillclimbs.

As I have only a couple of photos, it would be nice to see any others. There was one in particular that I am keen to see again - it was myself [VW], Ron Hodgson [Mini], and Frank Kleinig Jr. [Mini], side-by-side, at 45 degrees to the track at Craven A corner at Catalina, in the wet.

Greg


Greg,

Not sure on the photo front. But I think I've pinpointed the meeting where both those Mini drivers and you are in the entry list. Event 1 & 6 of the May 19th, 1963 Catalina meeting. And it was wet weather, with event 6 being a Le Mans start. You won your class in both and also set a class lap record.

In the next Catalina programme from August 25th, 1963 there's a full page Neptune Z-Zone advert with you the feature (with photo - Fisher Fiat & just visible Hodgson Cooper-Mini behind you).

The RCN report of the May meeting has a very brief mention of you.

Stephen

#4693 cooper997

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 21:36

This is just a quick thank you to Ken Devine for spoiling us with all the great photos he has access to. Especially for me, the Cooper related photos.

Great stuff, Ken.

Stephen

#4694 brucemoxon

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 21:54

Thanks Mick, I've tried them - Autopics had a couple of photos from my F.Vee and Sports Sedan days, but nothing from the early '60s.

After seeing some of the things that show up here, it's possible that something may turn up. Here's hoping! Cheers, Greg.



Greg, try emailing Autopics, letting them know which meetings and races you were in. They've got stacks of stuff that's not scanned yet - we got quite a few pictures of my Dad that way, both in his Vee and the Austin touring car.




Bruce Moxon

#4695 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 23:09

Greg,

Not sure on the photo front. But I think I've pinpointed the meeting where both those Mini drivers and you are in the entry list. Event 1 & 6 of the May 19th, 1963 Catalina meeting. And it was wet weather, with event 6 being a Le Mans start. You won your class in both and also set a class lap record.

In the next Catalina programme from August 25th, 1963 there's a full page Neptune Z-Zone advert with you the feature (with photo - Fisher Fiat & just visible Hodgson Cooper-Mini behind you).

The RCN report of the May meeting has a very brief mention of you.

Stephen

Thank you Stephen, I will follow that up, and try to get hold of those programs.

Hoddo and I had a good laugh together after that 'wet' race, when I asked him if he had ever driven a VW in the wet, with worn-out Michelin X tyres - 30/- each from Pedro Owen.

When I crossed the line at the finish - in front of the two Minis, the chequered flag was obscured by Bill Ford, waving his arms in the air! He was a real VW nut, I found out later, when he offered me a VW drive in the [1963] Armstrong 500.



#4696 cooper997

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 00:34

Greg,

If you pm me your email address I'll scan the entry list and advert, etc. for you.

Can I also suggest that if there isn't a thread on TNF that already exists, you start a thread called "VW's racing in Australia" to tell us all about those days of Catalina, Warwick Farm, the Armstomg 500, etc. That way its confined to one specific area and not scattered amongst so many other snippets.

You could then even add the scans if you have the photo uploading ability.

Stephen

#4697 GMACKIE

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 01:02

Will do, Stephen. All this is stimulating my memory, which is great. Recollections of incidents and people of the early '60s, that I thought had been 'deleted', have been stirred up by all this.

#4698 ken devine

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:38

Jack Brabham AGP62. Jack liked this one when he was over here for the Caversham Festival and autographed some copies.



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#4699 ken devine

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:42

Jack Brabham going out to practice.



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#4700 KarlLeFong

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 06:34

Jack Brabham AGP62. Jack liked this one when he was over here for the Caversham Festival and autographed some copies.



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Ken,

That picture is brilliant.

Karl