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Formula 5000 - happy days!


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#801 kingswood

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 04:23

John Wright reckoned he worked out the Broadley approach to rising rate suspension in his car...

KB made a lot of changes to his, including (IIRC) T332 rear suspension.



It was Patrick Head who solved the problems with the Lola T400 suspension
This was due to Richard Scott, who was at the time driving the Durex sponsored
T400, having had Patrick come and take a look at the car, as no one, including
Lola could make any sense of the thing Patrick Head had designed the Scott F2
car for Richard, hence the connection He drew up the modifications required,
and the new parts and mods were done prior to the Silverstone round in April '75
where he was soon competitive and won the event at ease

Lola then copied what they had done and the changes were then made to the VDS
run T400s of Gethin and Pilette, and they were then quickly on the pace
This then became the update kit from Lola for the T400, for which most of them were fitted
More development and changes would have been done as things progressed, but Mr Heads
initial input changed the device from a bit of a dog into something worthwhile


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#802 E1pix

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:04

John Wright reckoned he worked out the Broadley approach to rising rate suspension in his car...

KB made a lot of changes to his, including (IIRC) T332 rear suspension.

Carroll Smith made so many changes to the Interscope Racing T400 over here that Danny (aka the "Flyin' Hawaiian") Ongais coined it a "T366." By season's end, only the T400 tub was left, IIRC.

How were the T400s (or the T430s) against the T332s Down Under after our Series was gone? Overall.

Always wondered, you Lucky Mates got the F5000 gift longer than us. :)

Edited by E1pix, 28 April 2012 - 06:07.


#803 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 08:15

Generally speaking, the T332s were good from when they arrived until the formula disappeared...

The T430 only made the grade after serious reappraisal of its bodywork and wing arrangement, the T400s were constantly being worked on to make them go. Revised noses on the quickest ones, those of Bartlett and Wright.

Ultimately, the quickest F5000 was the M26 owned by Alan Hamilton and driven by Alfie Costanzo. But it always had the best backup too, as had the T430 they'd run prior to that.

The Elfin MR8s were always competitive when driven by good drivers, it's quite likely that the MR9 would have eclipsed all of them.

And who's to know what might have come of McCormack's M23 if he'd been able to fully develop the engine and get good reliability from it? He made a number of changes to the car for the 1980 Australian Grand Prix at Calder, reducing the weight significantly, but he failed to ever drive the car again due to a road accident on the way to the meeting.

#804 E1pix

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 08:33

Thanks, Ray. You guys definitely seemed to have had some interesting variety. It's so strange to me to think of "F5000" and "M23" in the same sentence. Good stuff.

Sorry if I missed it earlier, what motor ran in the M23?

#805 macoran

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:14

Sorry if I missed it earlier, what motor ran in the M23?

A Leyland V8 from the P76 saloon

From Wikipedia :
The top-of-the-line aluminium alloy 4416 cc V8 unit was unique to the P76, and was a derivative of the ex-Buick V8 that was powering the Rover 3500. Leyland Australia cited a weight advantage approaching 500 lb (230 kg) for the P76, most of which was attributed to the lighter weight of the aluminium engine block when compared to the cast iron blocks (with bigger displacements) of the V8s from Chrysler, Holden and Ford.

A beautiful pic of the McCormack M23 on this Flickr site
http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

Race entries on this list
http://www.tuttomcla.....1=McLaren M23

Edited by macoran, 28 April 2012 - 10:31.


#806 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:43

Full details in Ray's excellent history of the McCormack M23:

http://forums.autosp...w...st&p=174659



#807 rdmotorsport

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:03

Thanks, Ray. You guys definitely seemed to have had some interesting variety. It's so strange to me to think of "F5000" and "M23" in the same sentence. Good stuff.

Sorry if I missed it earlier, what motor ran in the M23?




This is not unique the M25 was basically a M23 with a small block Chevvy at the back owned run by David Hepworth for Bob Evans and then converted back to a M23 for I beleive De Villotta.

#808 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:35

However there was more to McCormack's conversion...

The use of the lightweight P76 engine, closely related to the Rover alloy V8, meant the car's balance wasn't changed from its F1 form and F1 tyres could be used.

#809 jj2728

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 18:13

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#810 E1pix

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 20:23

Thanks to you all for the great info on the M23. What a beautiful car (!), and an interesting use of it post F1. (great article, Ray!)

JJ, fine photo! Mid-Ohio esses 1971?

Thanks Again, everyone! :up:

#811 eldougo

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:01

Is that a Exhurst cover you can see on the M10 McLaren,trying to get a bit more mechanical grip to the rear.

#812 ellrosso

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:13

Found the article in RCN April 1969, on the coming change in 1971 of the ANF change to F5000. Written by Peter Wherrett and including comments from Leo Geoghegan, Bob Britton (Rennmax), Harry Firth, John Schroeder (TACE), Peter Watson (Watson Cams), John Joyce (Bowin), Kevin Bartlett, Garrie Cooper (Elfin), David McKay (Scuderia Veloce), Geoff Sykes (Warwick Farm), Peter Warneford (Automotive carburettors) and of course an overview by Wherrett.
Makes very interesting reading, especially re the costs involved and almost all of them were worried it was going to be more expensive than the current ANF 2.5 Formula.
All up costs were : Elfin : $13,500, Rennmax : $12,000 and Bowin : $15,500, although John Joyce thought the cars could easily end up around $20,000 for a really top flight car.
KB (and David McKay) was concerned about the growing emphasis on touring cars in Aust racing and the difficulty to attract sponsorship for any category other than tourers.
McKay mentioned a cost of $40,000 to run his Repco Brabham 2.5 per annum. A benchmark for costs at the time was the Neil Allen Elfin Traco sporty for sale in the classifieds for $8900 and his Lotus Elan for $4500.
There was a lot of talk about locally built machinery and how that would reduce costs and stimulate the local industry. I was always surprised that more local drivers didn't buy Elfins as they had been so popular in the lower formulas and the Ansett Team were very much up there in the results.
In RCN Aug 1970 the new Repco Holden F5000 was featured - around $5000 and producing over 450 bhp.


#813 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:41

A beautiful pic of the McCormack M23 on this Flickr site
http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

:up: Looks good in the livery too. It strikes me that if the original McRae was visually "an M19" then the GM2 had the look of "an M23".



#814 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:15

I think the Bowin P8 looked more like the M23 than anything else...

It was a very good looking car when it first turned out in Bob Jane colours.

#815 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 13:12

I think the Bowin P8 looked more like the M23 than anything else...

It was a very good looking car when it first turned out in Bob Jane colours.


In this shot it also looks a bit like a Lotus 72. Your right, it's certainly good-looking.



#816 xj13v12

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:01

In this shot it also looks a bit like a Lotus 72. Your right, it's certainly good-looking.

Yes a car worthy of getting back on track. I am doing my best and helping where I can. It will happen. Not over night but it will happen.

#817 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:36

Yes a car worthy of getting back on track. I am doing my best and helping where I can. It will happen. Not over night but it will happen.


:up: :up: :up:

We'd all love to see some 'as it is now' photos if you have any?

#818 Wirra

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:43

Leffo's Bowin P8

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Simon - You might find this of interest:

http://www.formula50...amp;category=41

Edited by Wirra, 30 April 2012 - 13:10.


#819 xj13v12

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:50

:up: :up: :up:

We'd all love to see some 'as it is now' photos if you have any?



I just wrote a post on Mac's (John McCotmack) M25 but it disappeared into the ether. He went to England to buy it and it disappeared overnight. I think Abba Kogan had it more recently. He also developed a McLaren into a Cen-Am car.

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#820 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 15:28

The Bowin P8's history is interesting...

John Joyce, who had been with Lotus for some years, ventured into monocoque construction with this car for the second time (the P3 had been a Mono, P4s and P6s were spaceframe cars) and included rising rate suspension as one of his playthings on it.

It was designed to be used as either a Formula 2 car (1600cc 2-valve engines... ie Ford twin cams, at that time approaching 210hp or so), or as a F5000 car. Jane's car was first off the floor, turned out at three meetings and was mothballed.

The only other buyer was John Leffler, who ordered a P8 F2 car to replace his P6f FFord, the P6 also having enjoyed the rising rate technology and Leffo and the Knott brothers having pretty much sussed out how to use it to advantage. His car came along some months after Jane's and he managed to crash it at Amaroo very early in its career.

Having done that, John rushed off to Melbourne and bought the Jane car, then converted it to F2 specs and put the F5000 stuff and the damaged F2 tub aside for later attention. He langushed with the car for a little while, then finally had a testing day at Oran Park with Joyce on hand to assist. He was alarmed, however, when Joyce turned up simply carrying a pyrometer!

"Where are the springs, where are the bars? What have you got for us to change and test?" they asked him. He didn't have anything, he just got Leffo to try things and he would take tyre temperatures, make some adjustments and send him out again. By the end of the day the car was transformed, Leffo told me. "To begin with I was driving hard and trying to make it work, but after this session I was having a hard time keeping up with the car!" Or something to that effect.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a little heavy in F2 form, especially alongside the competing cars, the Birranas. But Leffler was able to take the battle to them in the Bowin.

When it came time to go F5000, John and the boys modifed the F2 tub to fit a Chevrolet engine. I have no idea what differed in the mounting of the Chev engine compared to the original Repco Holden engine, but it seems that it was in this area of the car that the real problems lay. You can almost see it in some of the photos, I reckon.

At Phillip Island I remember John telling me that he'd flicked the oil pump belt off a number of times. The Island was fairly rough, the oil pump was mounted to the duralumin plate in the back of the tub and it's clear that the plate was flexing to cause the belt to come off.

He describes his problems with this car in our book, in fact Leffler's story is a very good one. He tells how Steve and Paul Knott rejoiced when he crashed it at one point and jointly said, "Now we can buy a Lola! Great!" but there was no Lola forthcoming at that time, that was later.

John's great drive in the Bowin was at Surfers Paradise in the 1975 Australian Grand Prix. It rained bucketfuls all day and he was uncatchable out in front of the field. Could it be that the wet track reduced the stresses on the chassis so the car worked as it was intended? In fact, Frank Gardner remarked that it was a truly great drive from John that day.

I don't recall whether or not the F5000 chassis was put back into service as a F5000, but ultimately the car that was an F2 car at the end of it all was despatched, Sue Ransom drove it once or maybe twice. The F5000 car was sold to Alan Nolan for him to source its suspension components, engine and gearbox for a new sports car to waste his time with. John Joyce learned of this and contacted him regarding the tub, he spoke to Alan just as he was about to put the tin snips to the thing to cut off a piece of alloy to make a bracket or something. John bought it and put it away, nothing further happened with it prior to John's untimely death and I guess it will be up to Adam to determine if anything ever will.

#821 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 16:49

It was Patrick Head who solved the problems with the Lola T400 suspension
This was due to Richard Scott, who was at the time driving the Durex sponsored
T400, having had Patrick come and take a look at the car, as no one, including
Lola could make any sense of the thing Patrick Head had designed the Scott F2
car for Richard, hence the connection He drew up the modifications required,
and the new parts and mods were done prior to the Silverstone round in April '75
where he was soon competitive and won the event at ease

Lola then copied what they had done and the changes were then made to the VDS
run T400s of Gethin and Pilette, and they were then quickly on the pace
This then became the update kit from Lola for the T400, for which most of them were fitted
More development and changes would have been done as things progressed, but Mr Heads
initial input changed the device from a bit of a dog into something worthwhile


Thanks for that. Very interesting and not something I'd read before. If this from your personal experience of being involved or something you read somewhere? If read, do you remember your source?

#822 Giraffe

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:46

It was Patrick Head who solved the problems with the Lola T400 suspension
This was due to Richard Scott, who was at the time driving the Durex sponsored
T400, having had Patrick come and take a look at the car, as no one, including
Lola could make any sense of the thing Patrick Head had designed the Scott F2
car for Richard, hence the connection


Patrick shared premises (a shed) with Geoff Richardson for some time (until it burnt down!)
One of Geoff's customers was Richard Scott, who's Brabham BT38 was being run by Michael Cane
who shared a railway arch in Battersea with Guy Edwards. Mike persuaded Richard to let Patrick
design the Scott for him. At the same time, Patrick reworked the rear suspension on Guy's Lola T332
which in time went to Theodore Racing. Guy recommended Patrick to Frank Williams on the basis of the
work he did on the T332, according to Patrick himself.

#823 xj13v12

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 21:11

The Bowin P8 is under restoration and a correct Repco-Holden engine will be used including the original Ron Harrop flat plane crank. If anyone knows where to get a pair of Bowin rear uprights or how to get in contact with Alan Nolan that would be useful. We have similar sports sedan type uprights which will do the job.

#824 ellrosso

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 21:35

Neil Hammond pic from Sandown in 1975. Great looking car!

Posted Image

#825 jj2728

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 00:50

Skip Barber in the Triple R Racing March 711.
Mid-Ohio 1971

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#826 kingswood

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:28

Thanks for that. Very interesting and not something I'd read before. If this from your personal experience of being involved or something you read somewhere? If read, do you remember your source?



Allen, it came directly from the mouth of Richard Scott, and I was also told by one of the mechanics on the car at the time, how
he remembered Patrick turning up at the shop with a drawing board in tow, and got on with the job. It's probably a shame that
he couldn't have had Patrick continue on and engineer the car for the rest of the season, as Richard then probably would have
had far better results through the remainder of the season, as Patrick Heads ability has been well proven in the years since.
Unfortunately for him though, the people that were running the car were more interested in in house politics, resulting
in an end of season bust up, that saw him get kicked out of the deal that he put together, and relegated to hiring a T330
to run the remaining races of the championship


#827 ellrosso

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:59

Nice shot jj - Kodachrome? Looks as good as the day it was shot.

#828 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:27

Neil Hammond pic from Sandown in 1975. Great looking car!

Posted Image

I bet John did not think so at that very moment. Pushing a broken down racecar is always very disapointing.
Though I do agree it does look smart, and smarter if it was running!
The above B&W shot is far more like it,, just wish it was color.

#829 Duc-Man

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:54

Skip Barber in the Triple R Racing March 711.
Mid-Ohio 1971

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Copyright JAG


What is this picture doing here amongst all this F5000?
Would somebody explain please?

#830 E1pix

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:57

What is this picture doing here amongst all this F5000?
Would somebody explain please?

It ran in F5000.

#831 Giraffe

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:09

What is this picture doing here amongst all this F5000?
Would somebody explain please?



It ran in F5000.


http://www.oldracing...php?RaceID=MH71

#832 timbo

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:21


But its still an F1 car.

Actually its an interesting mix with F5000 cars, a couple of F1 cars and a Brabham BT21 2.5ltr Climax engined car.

#833 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 12:55

It ran in F5000.


And it wasn't the only one. Same thing happened in S Africa and in Australia (see earlier post with photo of Geoff Lees in the Mario Delotti Ensign)

Edited by simonlewisbooks, 01 May 2012 - 12:55.


#834 RA Historian

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:25

F-1 cars were eligible to run in US F-5000. Gus Hutchinson won two F-5000 races in 1970 in a Brabham BT-26A. Skip Barber ran a number of races in the pictured March 711, and while not winning overall, did win a heat at Road America in 1972. Gregg Young drove a Surtees TS-7 in 1971 and Horst Kwech had a Chevron with an Alfa Romeo V-8 in it.

So, I see nothing wrong with mentioning or picturing a F-1 car in this thread when said car was in a F-5000 race.

Tom

#835 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:52

But its still an F1 car.

Actually its an interesting mix with F5000 cars, a couple of F1 cars and a Brabham BT21 2.5ltr Climax engined car.


Answers on a post card please.

#836 jjordan

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:53

That, in a nutshell, is the beauty of F-5000 in my mind. The wide diversity of chassis/engines. At the time F1 was in the Cosworth DFV mode, which certainly spawned a wide variety in chassis types, but did not have quite the mix present in a F-5000 grid.

#837 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 13:54

Formula A had always allowed 3-litre racing engines so a DFV would have been allowed in a Formula A race as early as 1967 had one been available.

#838 Duc-Man

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 14:47

I didn't say it's wrong, I was just a little suprised to see it on here.
I'm too young to know much about F5000. That's my main reason to read through here.

Would be great if somebody wrote a good book that covers the whole history of F5000.

#839 pressman

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:13

More photos from Norman Hayes this time from the first round at easter in 1969
Posted Image
32 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
30 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
23 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
17 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
13 by jones115, on Flickr

Cheers
Steve

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#840 pressman

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 16:28

And some from later in the year. The Gold Cup meeting I belive.....

Posted Image
75 by jones115, on Flickr

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71 by jones115, on Flickr

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64 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
58 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
51 by jones115, on Flickr

Many more to come
Cheers
Steve

#841 Giraffe

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 17:07

The last pic of Trevor Taylor in the Surtees TS5 is most likely from the Gold Cup meeting in 1969, but the earlier shots are from the September 1969 meeting and feature Peter Gethin in the McLaren M10A leading the pack into Old Hall, the unmistakeable Mike Coombe in his Cooper T66 Ford, and Terry Sanger in John T. Williamson's BRM P83 Ford.

#842 pressman

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 17:33

And More from 1970

Posted Image
100 by jones115, on Flickr

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98 by jones115, on Flickr

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88 by jones115, on Flickr

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82 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
78 by jones115, on Flickr
One for you Tony. Peter Gethin In Sid Taylors Mclaren with no green stripe ...

Cheers
Steve

#843 Giraffe

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 17:47

Trevor Taylor's Surtees TS5, Mac Daghorn's Leda Type 20/1, Ulf Norinder's Lola T190 & Mike Hailwood's similar car. March 27th 1970 & I was on Start Line duty that day. The notes on the back of my armband say "Sunny, windy, showers, hail!" Thanks Steve! :wave:

Edited by Giraffe, 01 May 2012 - 17:52.


#844 E1pix

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 18:30

Great photos, Pressman! :up:

#845 pressman

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:10

Thanks E1pix
Here a some more

Posted Image
123 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
125 by jones115, on Flickr



Posted Image
108 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
109 by jones115, on Flickr

Posted Image
101 by jones115, on Flickr

Cheers
Steve

Edited by pressman, 01 May 2012 - 19:11.


#846 E1pix

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 19:28

:up: Niiiiice. The images really capture the beauty of those days. :)

#847 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:54

While F1 engines were a part of the Formula A makeup, there were other 'alternatives' to the 5-litre stock-block engines around the world...

In the Tasman Formula, the 'pure racing' engines allowed were up to 2.5-litres. This effectively continued the old Tasman formula into the new. For racing in Australia, ANF1 was F5000 or up to 2-litre 'free design' engines, which was to satisfy those who thought that we should have gone for 2-litre racing instead of F5000. Late in the formula's run in England the option to run the 3.4-litre quad-cam Capri V6 engines.

There might have been others, if anyone knows (South Africa?) it would be good if they could post the information here.

#848 ellrosso

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:14

Great shots pressman.

#849 jj2728

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:50

Nice shot jj - Kodachrome? Looks as good as the day it was shot.


35mm Kodachrome slide it is and yes it was hot, IIRC July.

#850 timbo

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:12

Bowin P8 converted to hillclimb specs.

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And then converted a bit further.

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The McRae GM3, now designated GM9 in single seat Can-Am guise and back in NZ.

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Another single seat Can-Am car to return Down Under, this time an Elfin MR8, but was converted back to F5000 specs.

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