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Formula 5000 - happy days!


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#951 E1pix

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 21:04

Easy to understand from a driver who's helmet livery included lace and raced something with as silly a name as Tui. :cool:

... and a Lynn. :)

E-F's cool, though, always was. Didn't know about his repro skills. ;)

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#952 Marc Sproule

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:45

... and a Lynn. :)

E-F's cool, though, always was. Didn't know about his repro skills.;)


His skills probably extended to putting the original in the copier and dropping some change in the right slot.

Amazingly enough they were pretty good copies of the originals.



#953 RA Historian

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 19:44

Easy to understand from a driver who's helmet livery included lace and raced something with as silly a name as Tui. :cool:

Not lace. EFR's helmet has an Hawaiian floral design, because his lovely wife, Lounette, is Hawaiian.

#954 Marc Sproule

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:34

Not lace. EFR's helmet has an Hawaiian floral design, because his lovely wife, Lounette, is Hawaiian.


Here are a couple of EFR's hat...

http://www.flickr.co...157623311345506

http://www.flickr.co...157623252068063


#955 JacnGille

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:00

Not lace. EFR's helmet has an Hawaiian floral design, because his lovely wife, Lounette, is Hawaiian.

:blush:

#956 E1pix

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:46

:blush:

You too, Hey? ;)

#957 Chris Frizell

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 00:52

Slightly OT, but I thought I would share with you all one of those "surreal" moments that happen from time to time....

I am a computer technician in Adelaide, South Australia. I was having a break at work yesterday, and happened to be browsing this thread. I have always been a big fan of F5000's, and remember fondly going to AIR to see them race in the 1970's. Some of the photos on this thread were taken at Adelaide International, so I would have been at those meetings.

I always made a habit of going to Saturday practice, as it was cheaper to get in, the pits didn't cost as much to enter either, and you seemed to get more involved in what was going on, as the drivers and teams were always tinkering and then going out to test their setups etc. Race day was ok, but less intimate I always found.

Anyway, as I was browsing the thread, I came across the photo of Vern Schuppan in the Elfin, and remembered seeing him at AIR years ago. At the exact moment I was reading about him, the work phone rang, I picked it up and the caller said.."Hi, it's Vern Schuppan here...I was hoping that you could give me some technical help with my computer please?"....

Well...I just about fell off my chair....but I helped him as best I could, then broached the subject of his career, and mentioned to him that I had just been reading about him on here... we had a really good chat, he is a thoroughly nice fellow, and we reminisced for a while before we ended the call..

It then struck me that Vern, a bit like Jack Brabham, never really got the recognition in Australia that he deserved, a few people in Australia would have heard of him, but how many would be aware of his achievements overseas, winning Le Mans, his Indy exploits and of course F1 and F5000 races..

It is a pity that we Aussies don't recognise our F1 and racing hero's in the same way as our V8 drivers, and I fear that the likes of Sir Jack and Vern and many others will pass from this world without ever getting the recognition from us that they deserve..

#958 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:20

He's well-recognised in our book, having written one of the Forewords to it...

Here's a couple of pics cropped from the originals we've got in the book. Both are full page (A4) shots and will look great.

Vern at work at Oran Park (Doug Eagar photo):
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Getting away to a good start behind Warwick Brown at Sandown:
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A really nice bloke, Vern. I spent an enjoyable evening at his place back in the Rothmans Series times.

Edited by Ray Bell, 17 May 2012 - 02:24.


#959 ReWind

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 05:26

The caller said.."Hi, it's Vern Schuppan here..."

So, right from the horse's mouth, how is his surname pronounced? :wave:


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#960 E1pix

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 05:31

Great story, Chris. :up:

#961 Chris Frizell

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 06:45

So, right from the horse's mouth, how is his surname pronounced? :wave:



Shoe Pan...

:)

#962 ReWind

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:06

Thank you very much.


#963 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 23:38

Now I come to think of it, I do recall Garrie Cooper pronouncing it that way...

Anyway, are there any more pics, or do you want some more 'teasers' from the book?

#964 Wirra

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 00:21

Shoe Pan...

A good friend of mine went to school with Vern and that's the only way he (my friend) has ever pronounced Schuppan. Nice to see Vern has remained a hometown boy.

OT - Best wishes Casey.

#965 Chris Frizell

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 01:48

Now I come to think of it, I do recall Garrie Cooper pronouncing it that way...

Anyway, are there any more pics, or do you want some more 'teasers' from the book?



Hmmmm....let me think....I do have some colour slides somewhere of those days, I will just have to find a good scanner, but in the meantime....some teasers please!

cheers,

Chris



#966 SJ Lambert

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 02:42

....................

Well...I just about fell off my chair....but I helped him as best I could, then broached the subject of his career, and mentioned to him that I had just been reading about him on here... we had a really good chat, he is a thoroughly nice fellow, and we reminisced for a while before we ended the call..

...............


I've only met him once as well Chris, I agree that he's a really nice guy, I was a gangly teenager attending a Sports Car Racing (IMSA GT Championship??) event at Watkins Glen in 1985 with a bunch of Upstate NY teenage mates (we were there to see Davy Jones, I don't recall, but I presume he was driving a Formula Atlantic style Ralt or similar) - I noticed that along with Klaus Ludwig and Al Holbert and other luminaries, Vern was driving one of the mean machines - my mates were quite impressed when I said that the only Aussie racing at the meeting was a Le Mans winner and that on seeking him out in the paddock and then accosting him, he was more than happy to spend 5 or 10 minutes reminiscing about Elfins and taking happy snaps (can't find 'em now, more's the pity....)

James

Edited by SJ Lambert, 18 May 2012 - 06:29.


#967 E1pix

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:36

Yep, I always thought Vern was a great guy as well — and a fine driver.

Many will not recall the event, but in 1975 Road America needed to fill a gaping hole left by the departure of the Can-Am in '74 and ran a race known as the "Road America Handicap." The idea was to multiply grid times by the number of laps, reverse starting orders, and start each car on the clock from the pits — theoretically finishing the race with everyone in winning position. Vern very capably won the race in a 3-Liter Mirage-Cosworth, a rare sound for a race motor over here save for F1 at Watkins Glen. The Handicap had a mix of Le Mans and Can-Am cars, Trans-Am cars, plus an array of cars one would otherwise never see together. I thought it was great, and the race finished in fading weather with Vern's Mirage blazing its headlights at the end.

As myself a gangly 15 year-old in 1976, I managed to sell him several photo prints. Perhaps he liked them, or wanted to be nice to a kid, or just felt sorry for me, regardless he sure was a genuinely nice bloke and suspect that he still is. He won the Pole for Road America's second F5000 round in 1976, driving for Dan Gurney's All American Racers team in a new Lola T332C (bottom photo), once the team gave up on their Eagle chassis (top photo, at Pocono).

Thanks, Mr. Schuppan. :)

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Edited by E1pix, 18 May 2012 - 04:01.


#968 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 09:39

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Your youthful efforts with a camera never fail to impress E1pix :up:
The Lola looks a million dollars in Jorgensen colours!

#969 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 10:52

Not that Elkhart Lake presented difficulties in getting shots like that...

No, I'm not belittling your efforts, indeed it is a great pic. But I'm sure you agree that Elkhart lake gave plenty of opportunities.

Did you sell a print of that one to Vern?

#970 jjordan

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 14:10

Gee, none of my 100's of pictures around Elkart look that good. Sure had fun though.

#971 E1pix

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 20:54

Thanks Guys, I appreciate that. :)

Ray, Vern chose the prints to make and they were sent to AAR's Manager.

Not sure where they went from there, but the manager was also a good guy. It was a joy to do business in those days.

#972 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:36

Okay guys, I am hoping for some help here...

The situation is that I'm going for TOTAL IDENTIFICATION of all cars discernible in photos in our book. That's a lot of identification, over 1200 photos. But I'm a big non-plussed with this one from Terry Marshall:

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Like all New Zealand photos, I have fairly limited material to work with, but by cross-referencing between Kiwi Kapers in RCN, the odd photo from the Tasman meetings, even a little help from George Begg's book, I've got most of it sussed right out. One that did have me tossed was clarified by David Oxton and Brian Lawrence.

But this one seems harder.

What we do know is that it's Dexter Dunlop in front at Bay Park, coming out of the hairpin. Terry identifies it as 1973, which fits with Reg Cook being well placed there as he won that race. It also fits with Graeme Lawrence being up alongside of Reg in his Surtees TS15, and I have subsequently picked out Garry Pedersen in the McLaren between Lawrence and Cook.

But who are the others, in particular the car on the left with what appears to be No 53 on it. It seems to have a Surtees-type wide nose. And the obscured cars?

Can anyone help?

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 May 2012 - 11:17.


#973 Glenn Moulds

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:57

What we do know is that it's Dexter Dunlop in front at Bay Park, coming out of the hairpin. Terry identifies it as 1973, which fits with Reg Cook being well placed there as he won that race. It also fits with Graeme Lawrence being up alongside of Reg in his Surtees TS14, and I have subsequently picked out Garry Pedersen in the McLaren between Lawrence and Cook.

But who are the others, in particular the car on the left with what appears to be No 53 on it. It seems to have a Surtees-type wide nose. And the obscured cars?

Can anyone help?

Ray, off the top of my head (and without digging out the references) I think the Surtees is the converted TS9 of Neville Doyle. The last car could possibly be Robbie Booth? I'll try and confirm later unless one of our Kiwi friends sees this first.

#974 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:01

Ray - have you asked David McKinney?

#975 Glenn Moulds

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:13

Ray, off the top of my head (and without digging out the references) I think the Surtees is the converted TS9 of Neville Doyle. The last car could possibly be Robbie Booth? I'll try and confirm later unless one of our Kiwi friends sees this first.


Have just had a look in the NZ Golden Era book. Looks likely that it was the Bay Park NZ Gold Star meeting on 30 Dec 1973. The car behind Cook's T300 is probably David Oxton's Begg and the car to the right of Pedersen's McLaren (as we are looking at it) could be Baron Robertson's MR5. Doyle's Surtees and Booth's Begg seem right.

#976 Bondy

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:54

Ray, off the top of my head (and without digging out the references) I think the Surtees is the converted TS9 of Neville Doyle. The last car could possibly be Robbie Booth? I'll try and confirm later unless one of our Kiwi friends sees this first.


That'll be Neil Doyle :).


#977 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:13

Okay, I'm happy to go along with Neil Doyle... David McKinney has had a look at this and advises that Robertson and Booth are the other entries, while it's easy to put David Oxton's name on the most distant car on the right of the picture.

Robertson, in the various pics I have of him, goes from no airbox to a great gaping one, but he does seem to always have a white helmet. So it must be him up behind Reg Cook, which logically says it's Robbie Booth (what car?) down the back.

Can anyone see Kenny Smith's little car in there anywhere?

#978 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:16

Okay, I'm happy to go along with Neil Doyle... David McKinney has had a look at this and advises that Robertson and Booth are the other entries, while it's easy to put David Oxton's name on the most distant car on the right of the picture.

Robertson, in the various pics I have of him, goes from no airbox to a great gaping one, but he does seem to always have a white helmet. So it must be him up behind Reg Cook, which logically says it's Robbie Booth (what car?) down the back.

Further to the Robertson saga, he also changes the nose on the car at times. Though he bought the car from Max Stewart, who only ever ran it with that single flat wing across the front or in his own modified form with winglets and a reshaped nose, his first outings seem to have been using a full width nose as used by Cooper and McCormack. Later he reverted to Max's outrageous frontal treatment.

Can anyone see Kenny Smith's little car in there anywhere?

#979 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 13:18

...and David Oxton tells me it's him up there on the tail of Cook!

Now for a couple more teaser pics:

I recall this car as one I very much looked forward to seeing, this is at Sandown:

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Doesn't this look immaculate?

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...but what's it doing here?

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More questions: Who are these drivers?

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And what's special about this car?

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#980 jj2728

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 21:49

And what's special about this car?

Posted Image


Jeez Ray, for a split second I almost had a seizure thinking I was looking at a blue Ferrari 312T2........

#981 HeskethBoy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 00:27

[quote name='Ray Bell' date='May 24 2012, 23:18' post='5733576']

More questions: Who are these drivers?

Posted Image

Would I be correct to say that the Lola is KB's car being driven by Alan Jones - after he damaged the Teddy Yip car the previous day in one of Surfers famous ditches?

#982 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 00:37

Give the man half a cigar...

What about the second car?

#983 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 00:50

I suspect the 5000 is doing a display/demonstration at Liverpool. Drum up a crowd for the next 5000 event at Oran Pk.
Just as a matter of interest did the 5000s ever race at Championship level at Amaroo? Or even semi seriuosly at all.?

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 25 May 2012 - 00:51.


#984 kingswood

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:19

Give the man half a cigar...

What about the second car?


Bill Simpson Eagle from Tasman series 1970
Of the rest; Graeme Lawerence at Oran Park, maybe Rothmans series 1977
Lawerence again at Liverpool speedway publicty run
Vern Schuppan following Jones at Surfers Rothmans, after the latter used
K Bartletts car after writing off his Theodore T332C in practice
John Goss in Matich, Ford powered maybe ?

#985 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 02:39

Sorry, ran out of cigars...

Yes, Bill Simpson and the Eagle. Remember he crashed it at the Farm?

Graeme Lawrence at Oran Park, this is probably the AGP in 1974. By 1975 he had the Marlboro paint job on the car, as in the Liverpool Speedway picture.

Alan Jones snagged the wing on Terry Hook's Lola while lapping him, Vern Schuppan had a tyre problem later and Goss got through on both.

And yes, that's the Goss attempt to make a Ford engine work in the then-modern F5000 before it had a valve problem at Sandown. He qualified it on the tenth row of the grid at Oran Park a few weeks later, but felt it was better to race the Repco-engined car from the third row and filled second in that. The 'A55' as he dubbed it was sold to Mel McEwin with a Repco-Holden reinstalled.


#986 kingswood

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:05

[quote name='Ray Bell' date='May 25 2012, 03:39' post='5734534']
Not too worried about the cigars, couldn't afford the tax on them nowadays anyway!

I guessed that with the 'Quinton Hazel' written on the nose of the Lawerence Lola
that it would be the '77 season The car is probably a royal blue in colour




#987 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:35

Whoops... I think you're right there...

He was running No 14 most of the life of this car, it changed from blue to white and red, then for the '77 season he went back to a dark blue (AGP book, page 413) and had No 8 on it. This was right at the end of his tenure with the car, with NZ then solidly into Atlantics and no desire to go back to little cars he retired soon after this and sold the car to Terry Hook.

#988 timbo

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:55

I suspect the 5000 is doing a display/demonstration at Liverpool. Drum up a crowd for the next 5000 event at Oran Pk.
Just as a matter of interest did the 5000s ever race at Championship level at Amaroo? Or even semi seriuosly at all.?

Does anyone remember the Village Grand Prix track at Blacktown NSW? it was before the invention of indoor/outdoor fun karting tracks.
Anyway, they ran an F5000 around there as a demonstration for an upcoming F5000 meeting in Sydney.

As for running F5000 at championship level at Amaroo Park, my immediate thought was, I'm sure they did, but all my old photo's are from Historic meetings.
Some investigation is in order.


#989 Bondy

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 05:00

Does anyone remember the Village Grand Prix track at Blacktown NSW? it was before the invention of indoor/outdoor fun karting tracks.
Anyway, they ran an F5000 around there as a demonstration for an upcoming F5000 meeting in Sydney.

As for running F5000 at championship level at Amaroo Park, my immediate thought was, I'm sure they did, but all my old photo's are from Historic meetings.
Some investigation is in order.


Hey Timbo, Ken Shirvington ran his T400 around the Village Grand Prix Track. There was a round of the Gold Star at Amaroo in 1981. Sadly it ended up being a 2 round series that year.


#990 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 05:28

F5000s competed at Amaroo Park three times...

Apart from Frank Matich turning out at an early meeting (1970?) and blitzing a much less potent field of cars to set the outright record, the next one was in 1974 and then in 1976.

August 18, 1974, with Lawrence on pole (47.1s) and the deal was that no blocking was allowed. If someone put their nose in to pass, the other driver had to let them go. John McCormack wasn't a party to this deal, but he was a bit outclassed as he was running the ML6 with the Leyland engine. So there was a lot of passing and repassing so it looked good. But the pole position holder was to win and Lawrence did that in both races. Only problem was Stewart had to slow down too much on the run to the line and Lawrence didn't quite make it in the second race. Bartlett set the lap record at 46.2 seconds.

Lawrence was again the pace man on May 30, 1976. I guess the same deal was in place, Lawrence on pole and second to Goss over the hill in the first race, Goss fell out, Lawrence won, a lot of place-changing in the ranks. In the second Goss again won the start from Allison and Lawrence, the description of the finish reads:

Lawrence went to the front with a lap to run and won the race, with Goss and Stewart pulling alongside Allison for a big finish, which was something else again, with these cars taking up a huge lump of circuit by themselves.


In 1981 there was a Gold Star race there, so that answers the question...

Alfie won from Rob Butcher on July 12, a two-heat race in which John Wright won the start and finished second in the first heat, but retired from the second. Pole went to Alfie at a blistering 45.9 in the McLaren ground effects-converted M26, second on the grid to Wright on 46.9, but times in the 47s were the order of the day for most. Alfie did high 46s in winning.

Edited by Ray Bell, 25 May 2012 - 05:29.


#991 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 06:13

He was running No 14 most of the life of this car

... and other cars for several years before

...with NZ then solidly into Atlantics and no desire to go back to little cars he retired soon after this

Not entirely true, Ray. He continued to race 'small cars' for a few years more - a March 76B, then a Chevron B48 and finally a March 80A. They were all bought for racing in southeast Asia, though he usually made an appearance in an NZ race or two each year

#992 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:44

I was aware that he made the forays to SE Asia, David, and he mentioned that to me...

But he said the cars were provided for him, rather than being cars he ran himself.

the big difference is, of course, that when NZ had F5000 he was there for every round of the Gold Star and ran in all the International events in both countries. When NZ dropped F5000 he was only able to race in Australia and the car travelled back and forth all the time.

When NZ went for the little cars, he no longer had the enthusiasm to run a heavy race schedule. Hence I didn't say he retired immediately, but 'soon after this.'

His own words were, "I sold my car to Terry Hook in 1977. After racing the F5000s I didn’t want to go on in smaller cars, though I did have a few races in a car owned by Rothmans in South East Asia." Perhaps that is a bit of a shorthand explanation?

#993 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:54

I'd believe the cars were owned by Rothmans SEA, but I would suspect run by Lawrence's men

He raced the March 76B at Pukekohe and Manfeild in April 1978, and the 80A at the same two venues in April 1980. He had also contested the 1977 NZGP incidentally, in a Lola T460 which was owned (from memory) by Albert Poon, and the April 1979 Pukekohe race at the wheel of Kenny Smith's March 76B

#994 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:36

So, as Leo Geoghegan said of his 'retirement' in 1971, he retired from owning racing cars, not from driving them...

The drive of Kenny's March must have had some purpose, one would think?

#995 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:22

Smith had his 79B by then - maybe just giving a mate a drive

#996 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:46

...and keeping it before the public so they'd know it was for sale...

Or maybe just making up an extra number in the field.

By the way, I found 143 people who drove F5000 in Australia and New Zealand over the period from 29.12.68 to 2.5.82. To count they had to drive at a race meeting where a F5000 race was held. How many do you think competed the Tasman Cup rounds from 1964 to 1975?

#997 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 14:31

Given the time, I could add them up, but I would guess a similar total to your 143

#998 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 20:34

I'll let you know when my adding up is done...

But I suspect it will be quite a few more!

#999 GD66

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:12

A patient trawl through the www.sergent.com.au website would probably give you the numbers, Ray, his records appear pretty complete.

Edited by GD66, 26 May 2012 - 01:13.


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#1000 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 13:01

That's where I went trawling last night...

As from about '68 or so it's easier with RCN as a backup.