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Formula 5000 - happy days!


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#1151 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:02

That Adelaide race was the second best race I ever saw...

Tremendous dicing for the places, Vern Schuppan holding down the cockpit bodywork as he diced among them, everybody really charging at the end of the series.

The Oran Park race was devastated by the raw new track surface, which John McCormack actually predicted before the race.



Interesting how Kennedy's Wolf does not have the pace of the front runners at Oran and this is explained away by the use of Aurora Spec' GoodYears.
Given that the same WR3 had been no slouch in Grands Prix, less than a year before, this highlights how much tyres made a difference even then.
Kennedy was being dropped by Lola T332s designed 3 or 4 years earlier, to a budget, and for production where the Wolf was very much a bespoke big-bugget design(for the time) and a regular GP winner in 1977.
The Lola T332, even in 1979, was still bloody fast in the right hands! :smoking:

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#1152 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:46

The F1 cars won at Surfers Paradise, which was a circuit more suited to them...

More flowing corners, fewer straights pulling out of tight corners.

#1153 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 15:52

Of interest to Australian F5000 followers...

Our book will be on sale again at the Tasman Revival meeting next weekend, and for the first time the leather-bound limited edition signed by dozens of drivers etc will be available there as well.

#1154 E1pix

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:28

Sounds awesome, Ray. :up:

#1155 Piquet959

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:43

I purchased the book last weekend at Sandown Historic race meeting. A fantastic read. Thanks for the great research and work involved.

A very impressive book and found out from reading the credits that one of the rad chargers in Appendix J now called Historic Touring cars used to be racing in F5000 days.
One Peter Roach. He was a real good steerer of a Mustang in our category. Always thought that he was a bit on the edge and now I know why!
He retired from our category after a huge crash at Calder in roughly the same place as Craig Lowdnes had his big crash.
Peter completely wrecked his Mustang and sadly for our category hasn't been a competitor since

Cheers
Peter Sneddon

Edited by Piquet959, 17 November 2012 - 20:44.


#1156 lyntonh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:45

Warwick Farm Tasman Meeting 1971

There were six McLaren M10Bs & one M10A.

There were obviously various views as to how the nose should be modified to get the best airflow through the radiators.
Or were they added to improve downforce or trim? The front wings differ as well.
Correct my terminology if it's duff.


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M10B Teddy Pilette....as built

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M10B Keith Holland....as built (That's a developing stain artifact on the nose cone behind the opening)
Front wing tabs angled very flat

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M10B John Cannon...a little wall in front of the opening...front wing extensions

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M10B Graeme McRae....a little wall ....further forward...front wing extensions

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M10B Frank Matich...a very fancy wall, split & curved, plus fences....front wings turned up at the back

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M10B Niel Allen.....a high wall, with the top edge folded forward, & fences back past the opening....front wings turned up at the back and end plates

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The photo's junk...but it shows more detail...oh, and the wheel's up

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M10A Frank Radisich....a high wall

Edited by lyntonh, 16 January 2013 - 01:49.


#1157 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:12

Warwick Farm Tasman Meeting 1971

There were six McLaren M10Bs & one M10A.

There were obviously various views as to how the nose should be modified to get the best airflow through the radiators.
Or were they added to improve downforce or trim? The front wings differ as well.
Correct my terminology if it's duff.


Posted Image
M10B Teddy Pilette....as built

Posted Image
M10B Keith Holland....as built (That's a developing stain artifact on the nose cone behind the opening)
Front wing tabs angled very flat

Posted Image
M10B John Cannon...a little wall in front of the opening...front wing extensions

Posted Image
M10B Graeme McRae....a little wall ....further forward...front wing extensions

Posted Image

Posted Image
M10B Frank Matich...a very fancy wall, split & curved, plus fences....front wings turned up at the back

Posted Image
M10B Niel Allen.....a high wall, with the top edge folded forward, & fences back past the opening....front wings turned up at the back and end plates

Posted Image
The photo's junk...but it shows more detail...oh, and the wheel's up

Posted Image
M10A Frank Radisich....a high wall

The rear wings vary a lot too, dual plane, huge gurneys as well as the angles. I think that Niel Allen was trying to use the nose as an extra wing, given the fences on the side to what I feel was a necesary fence on the radiator outlet. Though all those fences must drag quite a lot and ideally would be better not there, though in our weather i doubt the outlet would let out enough hot air.


#1158 Wirra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:13

McRae was the first to fit parallel swing arms. It appears the later M10Bs were produced with that configuration. Compare photos of the two Allen M10Bs

#1159 lyntonh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:53

Interesting how the top trailing arm went through the exhaust.
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You'd have to wonder how often he heard it rattle!!

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#1160 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:56

Not unless an exhaust pipe broke...

AGP 1973, perhaps, in a later car? He broke one there in that.

#1161 Pat Clarke

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:59

McRae was the first to fit parallel swing arms. It appears the later M10Bs were produced with that configuration. Compare photos of the two Allen M10Bs


Only parallel when looked at from the side. The pivot axis, top and bottom, were more or less parallel with the original installation.
Pivoting the upper link/trailing arm on an angle like that would have been to introduce some pitch limitation. Probably not a bad idea with all that torque and the heavy weight of the powertrain.

Pat

Edited by Pat Clarke, 16 January 2013 - 07:22.


#1162 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:51

As in anti-squat, Pat?

I think that's the accepted way to dial that out.

#1163 seldo

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 14:16

The rear wings vary a lot too, dual plane, huge gurneys as well as the angles. I think that Niel Allen was trying to use the nose as an extra wing, given the fences on the side to what I feel was a necesary fence on the radiator outlet. Though all those fences must drag quite a lot and ideally would be better not there, though in our weather i doubt the outlet would let out enough hot air.

I think you'll find those front radiator "fences" were for cooling purposes to prevent air spilling back down the radiator exit, rather than for aerodynamic down-force benefit

Edited by seldo, 16 January 2013 - 14:20.


#1164 DanTra2858

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 19:49

I think you'll find those front radiator "fences" were for cooling purposes to prevent air spilling back down the radiator exit, rather than for aerodynamic down-force benefit


My understanding of the"Fences" is that they disturb the airflow causing a low pressure area behind the fence, this low pressure area then creates additional & a stronger airflow thus drawing more hot air out of the radiator area at a faster rate thus creating better cooling.


#1165 lyntonh

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:46

Keith Holland AGP Warwick Farm 1970

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http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6098800

http://www.oldracing...m/mclaren/m10b/

Interesting to see Poul Christie's restored M10B in the original paint scheme

#1166 kym

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:45

Adelaide International Raceway

1972 October7 -Saturday practice for the Gold Star Round


ElfinMR5 - ratio change for John McCormack

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MatichA50 - Frank Matich running the twin rear wing

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McLarenM10B - Warwick Brown

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LolaT300 - Gary Campbell

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Kym



#1167 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:54

Great to see Gary's happy face again...

I've said it before, he was a wonderful bloke and put a lot into the sport during his short time as a competitor. He was quick enough to own a Warwick Farm lap record at one time and he greatly helped Larry Perkins on his trip to F1.

Thanks for those pics, Kym.

#1168 GreenMachine

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:47

MatichA50 - Frank Matich running the twin rear wing

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Kym


First EBD?

#1169 Pat Clarke

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:58

First EBD?


I thought that when I saw it...'That must be the first Exhaust Blown Wing'... but then realised they are blowing the wrong side of the wing =]

Pat

#1170 E1pix

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:01

Nice images Kym, Thank You.

#1171 Catalina Park

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:59

I thought that when I saw it...'That must be the first Exhaust Blown Wing'... but then realised they are blowing the wrong side of the wing =]

Pat

I wonder if there is a smoke stain under the wing at speed?


#1172 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:30

I wonder if there is a smoke stain under the wing at speed?

Plenty on top! I feel they may have had the idea, just blew the wrong side. Aero was a little more basic in those days!

#1173 GreenMachine

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 23:48

I always felt that 'bottom' wing was of doubtful value - the air down there would be incredibly dirty. On the other hand, even a little extra downforce on that lever arm would help, providing the front wing/aero could balance it and remove the potential for high speed understeer.

Was it rules that meant the idea did not spread, or did Matich abandon the idea as something tried, but results not worth it?


#1174 kym

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:51

Glad you like the pictures - thanks for the comments.


Here's a couple more with an international flavour.

Adelaide round of the 1976 Rothmans series.
Taken during practice on February7.


John Cannon and Dave Purley head up the main straight

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John Walker past the pits

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Receiving attention from Doug Trengove in pit lane (One of my favourite pics).

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Kym

#1175 E1pix

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:38

I had my decal on that Cannon car in '76.

(with apologies for the fond yet self-serving post)

#1176 TIPO61

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 21:59

Unless my age addled eyes mistake (and they often do), there's no mention this deep into the thread of...Tony AtoZ (Adamowicz). He did some business in this Formula with a great back-story on who and where his mount was prepared. Like I said...could be I'm wrong.

Edited by TIPO61, 04 April 2013 - 20:27.


#1177 retriever

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 20:27

The McLaren M10A/B was a fabulous looking machine, and so rightly given pride of place - in the form of Peter Gethin and his Church Farm Racing's example - on the front cover of Nick Geogano's 'Encyclopaedia of Motor Sport' published around the time of the type's heyday.

#1178 SJ Lambert

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:20

1978 - Sandown - Aussie GP

Not happy days for Garrie Cooper at 15 seconds in -

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

He went on to recover his health enough to conceive and build the ground effect MR9 at least!!

The above you tube footage is part two of the clips on this Roaring Season page - http://www.theroarin...rmula-5000-Cars

Apologies if the Roaring Season footage has been posted here before - the extended racing footage is more than good enough to warrant a second look if I am repeating it!!



#1179 B Squared

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:26

An invitation from our friends at the International Motor Racing Research Center in Watkins Glen, New York:

IMRRClogo2.jpg

Formula 5000 Series Talk at IMRRC May 10; Series Driver Sam Posey Honored Guest

WATKINS GLEN, N.Y. (April 21, 2014) – “No one outside the racing world seemed to know F5000 existed,” Sam Posey reminisced in Road & Track magazine a few years ago.

On May 10, Posey, who would drive to second place in the Formula 5000 series in 1971 and 1972, will be the honored guest as the International Motor Racing Research Center hosts a talk about the series that was lauded by some and overlooked by many.

The free talk will be at 1 p.m. All are welcome.

The 1968 Le Grand Mk7 that Posey drove in Formula 5000 in 1968 will be the centerpiece of the talk. The car has been on display at the Racing Research Center since December.

LeGrandF5000-dresangs_zps395c840b.jpg

“Although it was one of Posey’s least favorite race cars, the Le Grand was an early and important step in the development of Formula 5000 race cars,” Center President J.C. Argetsinger said. “The reunion between Sam and the Le Grand is certain to be a memorable experience for all.”

Car co-owner Bob Mayer and Jacques Dresang, son of co-owner Rick Dresang, will speak about the car’s place in history and the story of the car’s restoration. The three men collect, restore and race vintage cars.

James Stengel, who is researching the Formula 5000 series, also will speak. Stengel drives a Formula 5000 car in vintage races and is on the board of the Formula 5000 Drivers’ Association, which runs the current Formula 5000 Revival Series.

In his March 2010 Road & Track piece, Posey wrote about the series: “Although I never won the championship, some of the achievements I'm most proud of as a driver came in F5000. Thecars were fast, challenging and evenly matched because so many teams could afford the components you needed to win. The racing was terrific, and the opposition included some of the top drivers of the period. But the series did little to burnish my reputation. No one outside the racing world seemed to know F5000 existed.”

The Center’s May events are part of the ongoing Center Conversations series. Upcoming speakers are vintage car event organizer Murray Smith on June 21; Cary Agajanian, son of legendary racing team owner and race organizer J.C. Agajanian in July; Steve Zautke on the Milwaukee Mile in October; and in November Michael Martin on the United States Road Racing Championship race series of the 1960s.

Edited by B Squared, 29 April 2014 - 08:31.


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#1180 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:44

It is a shame my trip to Watkins Glen couldn't be geared to suit this presentation...

I will be at the June 21 event, however.

#1181 Duc-Man

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 16:23

Somebody posted a link to this on FB. I thought I pass it on to here.

https://revslib.stan...ommit=Search...



#1182 E1pix

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:43

Thought I'd bump this thread because I miss it... and way off topic, I guess my wife and I are having a nostalgic moment as we camp above Turn 6 at Laguna Seca, California, in a near-full moon, right now. F5000 ran here, so did Can-Am and Trans-Am, and the 51st SCCA Runoffs (Club racing championships in 27 classes) are here for the first time... and we really need a race week. Hope you all are getting more races in than we've been. :-)

Brian, great post. Missed it, then saw it was posted 46 hours before we emptied our place. Oh boy.

< Bump >

#1183 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:02

1978 - Sandown - Aussie GP

Not happy days for Garrie Cooper at 15 seconds in -

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

He went on to recover his health enough to conceive and build the ground effect MR9 at least!!

The above you tube footage is part two of the clips on this Roaring Season page - http://www.theroarin...rmula-5000-Cars

Apologies if the Roaring Season footage has been posted here before - the extended racing footage is more than good enough to warrant a second look if I am repeating it!!

Just watching that clip. Nothing has changed! Mc Rae got the bad sportsmanship flag for driving too fast through the scene of Garries crash. Still happens!

Though different times, wheeling away broken cars on track side and the race goes[under yellows] on as they get Garrie out of the car.



#1184 arttidesco

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 22:30

01_IMG_8734sc.jpg

 

Sorry it's not a period image of the T400 #HU5, but I am wondering if any one can tell me, preferably from contemporary reports rather than the excellent OldRacingCars.com, why Ian Ashley swapped his 2nd place finishing Lola T400 at Zolder on the 25th of April '75 to his pole sitting Lola T330 at Zandvoort on the 19th of May 1975 ?



#1185 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 00:51

As I recall, the T400 had issues with front end downforce...

Maybe the sweepers at Zandvoort were better with the T330?

#1186 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 03:37

The T400 looked the part and was reputedly stronger too. The T332 does seem to be more popular, read faster than the 400. 

Kenny Smith has gone back to one in recent times.



#1187 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 04:02

@Ray and Lee the reason I ask for info from contemporary reports is because the Zandvoort results read 1st Peter Gethin, 2nd Teddy Pilette, and 3rd Richard Scott all of whom were driving T400's which does not suggest there was too much wrong with that particular model that particular weekend or for the two races previously which Richard and Peter had won respectively  ;)



#1188 kingswood

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 04:58

The Zolder and Zandvoort rounds of the series that year were right after the Silverstone round that Scott won at a 

canter in the Durex T400   Richard Scott had asked Patrick Head to come and take a look at the Durex chassis

after the Brands Hatch round, to try and rectify the thing, as both Lolas and McKechnies were by now mystified by it.

 Mr Heads input was proven to be correct with the Silverstone result  The issues were mainly in the rear

suspension, although there were alterations to the front as well    The VDS T400's had been updated with the same

alterations as the Durex chassis by Zolder, but maybe the Ian Ashley car had not, and he felt the T330 to be better ? 



#1189 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 05:35

Maybe they cross-threaded a rod end while they were preparing it?

Point taken, the T400 can't have been too bad.

#1190 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 06:04

As Kingswood says, the main problem with the T400 was its complex rising-rate suspension which was extremely difficult to set up properly. My understanding is that the VDS team resolved the problem by modifying their T400s to use T330-type suspension. Other teams either struggled on and occasionally got their cars to perform well, or reverted to earlier models.

http://www.oldracing....com/lola/t400/

It would appear that Ian Ashley never really got to grips with the Richard Oaten T400. He only raced it twice, both times due to force majeure as the team's T330 was either damaged or broken, and then severely damaged the T400 in a testing accident. He obviously much preferred the T330.

#1191 kingswood

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 08:03

Tim, it wasn't so much to do with the rising rate, it was more to do with the camber change in the rear

suspension, which reduced the contact patch due to excessive camber increase.  It seems that most

thought the spring rate to be too high, so reduced the rate, whereas if they had actually increased the

rate it might have helped, as it would have reduced the suspension travel.  

 

The McKechnie team had Lola further modify the Durex car to fit T332 suspension to both the front

and rear of the car, of which Richard Scott said to be no improvement over the updated T400 version

He was dead against this later modification, but it went ahead against his wishes  The team suffered

a degree of sour internal politics, unfortunately.  It seems this car was the only one to be fitted with

the T332 setup to both ends of the chassis

 

I haven't seen any pictures of the VDS from the era to suggest that they were modified to the T332

type suspension while run by VDS, but later the ex Gethin chassis was fitted with T332 type rear

suspension by Ken Shirvington, as was the Bartlett car, and also the Weitzes and Ongais cars in the

USA



#1192 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 08:27

Thanks Kingswood. My source for the VDS mods was this comment by Ian Phillips in his Autosport review of the 1975 European F5000 season:
 

Five [T400s] were sold here, three to VDS and one each to Richard Oaten Racing and the Durex/McKechnie setup. The latter scored the model's first victory early in the year but it wasn't until mid-season that it really began to shape up well, this time in the hands of the VDS team who had adopted T332 conventional suspension.


Like you I haven't yet got round to checking photographic evidence.



#1193 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 08:40

Thanks for your detailed input Kingswood and Tim, according to oldracingcars Ian raced the T400 #HU5 three times the second visit, third round, to Brands where Ian came from the back of the grid to 7th, Silverstone where Ian finished 5th from 2nd on the grid and Zolder as mentioned where Ian finished 2nd after qualifying 5th, what I'd like to establish from the contemporary reports is whether Ian crashed #HU5 in testing before Zandvoort when he would not necessarily have had the choice of which car to use, or after in which case he certainly did have the choice, it's a minor point but if he did have the choice between the T400 and T330 and used the the T330 to qualify on pole it was certainly an inspired choice in light of the fact that he won the next round at Thruxton again from pole.

 

So going back to my original question can anyone tell me, preferably "from contemporary reports" rather than the excellent OldRacingCars.com, why Ian Ashley swapped his 2nd place finishing Lola T400 at Zolder on the 25th of April '75 to his pole sitting Lola T330 at Zandvoort on the 19th of May 1975 ?

 

Thanking you in anticipation :wave:



#1194 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 09:12

I think ORC has made a (very rare) error here. The Motoring News report on the Silverstone race on 12th April said:
 

Ian Ashley's Lola T332 chassis was still being rebuilt after his Oulton Park accident and his hard-working mechanics finished putting together a substitute car at three o'clock on Friday morning. They'd got a T332 tub from Lolas and added T330 suspension and the airbox and various other bits from the T400 and it all seemed to work well as Ashley set second-fastest time in 1m 19.7s ...

 
There's a photo of the race start in the report which clearly shows that Ashley is driving a T330-type Lola.
 
The fact that Ashley chose to drive a hastily-cobbled together T332 in this race, rather than the T400, seems to me to show that he really didn't fancy the newer car.  He only raced it when he had to; at Brands on Easter Monday he had to use it following his big accident in the T330 at Oulton on Good Friday, and he used it at Zolder as the T330 had damaged its gearbox, as Motoring News reported:
 

After [Ashley] had set the fastest unofficial time during the test sessions preceding practice, driving the T330, the older car's gearbox broke a lay-shaft roller bearing. This compelled the team to concentrate on the T400, which surprised them by being only a fraction slower, despite very little development.

 
I don't have the report on the Zandvoort race, but it really does seem that he only raced the T400 when there was no other choice.


Edited by Tim Murray, 29 September 2015 - 09:15.


#1195 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 10:41

I think ORC has made a (very rare) error here.

 

Inconceivable! *

 

 

(* for those of you not already familiar with The Princess Bride, you really need to watch The Princess Bride)



#1196 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 11:07

Autosport's 12 April race report makes no mention of a new T332 tub but that's perfectly possible.  The car raced was the old T330 HU17, even if it had a whole lot of new metal in it by then.  As this car was destroyed two years later and the mangled tub thrown away, we may never know.

 

But yes, ORC was in err ..., err... .  It's no good, I just can't say it.

 

Now fixed:

http://www.oldracing...php?RaceID=E75D

 

(For those of you who have seen the film, can I also recommend Cary Elwes' book "As You Wish" about the making of the film.  I'm reading it at the moment.  )


Edited by Allen Brown, 29 September 2015 - 11:07.


#1197 Mallory Dan

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 12:15

Need to get out more Mr B....!! Top of the League too



#1198 MCS

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 19:23

I think ORC has made a (very rare) error here. The Motoring News report on the Silverstone race on 12th April said:
 

 
There's a photo of the race start in the report which clearly shows that Ashley is driving a T330-type Lola.
 
The fact that Ashley chose to drive a hastily-cobbled together T332 in this race, rather than the T400, seems to me to show that he really didn't fancy the newer car.  He only raced it when he had to; at Brands on Easter Monday he had to use it following his big accident in the T330 at Oulton on Good Friday, and he used it at Zolder as the T330 had damaged its gearbox, as Motoring News reported:
 

 
I don't have the report on the Zandvoort race, but it really does seem that he only raced the T400 when there was no other choice.

I may be wrong, but didn't Ashley say that the T400 wasn't up to it?  He was hardly alone: think Brian Redman.  Also, did he not crash it twice (not once) in testing?   I may be mistaken, so apologies if that is the case.

 

The T330 he had was the Henley Fork Lift / ShellSPORT car that Frank Gardner had been called in to help set up in 1973.  No wonder it flew, but Ashley was often very, very quick on his day.

 

Anyway, the Oaten "T332" was almost made to look like the T400 initially, sporting the huge airbox and rear-wing and then the restricted airbox (the innards of the "huge" airbox, if you are still with me), with various other modern parts - don't forget Lola carried on T332 parts production for several more years. Looking at pictures now it ended up with a unique looking airbox - so I can't imagine HU17 had many original parts left in the end.

 

Somewhere (no idea where) I have three colour slides of the Oulton Park accident with the T330.  If I ever find them I will post them.



#1199 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 02:21

Okay so we identified one error regarding Silverstone and are sticking with the story that Ian chose the T330 HU17, with much new metal, for Zandvoort. Thank you Gentleman :up:



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#1200 arttidesco

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 07:40

In 1975 John Moreton drove a T400 and later T332 for a team called variously; Perry Krinnit, Krinett Racing Ent., and Perry Krinitt.

 

To spare future pedantry I wonder if anyone could confirm the correct spelling of Perry's surname ?