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Formula 5000 - happy days!


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#251 bill p

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 16:33

And there was me thinking that it was the double glazing manufacturer! However, I was well aware what "Private" was, but I can't remember who they sponsored. I think it was a Swedish F3 team rather than a F5000 outfit.


Conny Andersson was sponsered by "Private" in 1971 in a Green F3 Brabham BT35

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Edited by bill p, 25 February 2011 - 16:55.


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#252 E1pix

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 21:15

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Cool, I recall that car well! One could see its propensity to oversteer with that heavy AMC motor, and that considered they did pretty well with it (2nd at a Road Atlanta heat, 6th at Road America where I saw it).

This was likely the same block in the "Wayne's World" Pacer.... not your typical cross-over for racing success.

I sure Miss Mark.... I think that's Karl Kainhofer working in the pic.

#253 SJ Lambert

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 21:53

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This one's on the dummy grid at Albert Park in same form up as post #250.



#254 jj2728

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:01

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#255 Giraffe

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 16:39

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Donahue arriving in the series with the AMC powered Lola was the catalyst to Sam Winston (Winston Delta Tires) withdrawing from the sport in protest at the preferential treatment given to Mark & his team by a race organiser. He very nearly took Jody Scheckter with him, a move that would have cost Jody the championship crown, but I'll let Jerry Entin recount the story........................

#256 Phil Rainford

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 17:00

Donahue arriving in the series with the AMC powered Lola was the catalyst to Sam Winston (Winston Delta Tires) withdrawing from the sport in protest at the preferential treatment given to Mark & his team by a race organiser. He very nearly took Jody Scheckter with him, a move that would have cost Jody the championship crown, but I'll let Jerry Entin recount the story........................


How much heat has he generated in those Goodyears :eek:


PAR


#257 Bloggsworth

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 22:51

Hadn't heard about the Durex controversy.

Gee Whiz, you could show nakeds on Python.... but not show a product to protect you and her backstage.

And all over a material clearly seen on the tires! (Whoops, "tyres")

All in Good Fun, Folks.


Television is a strange beast; Channel4 which has no problem showing male homsexual rape; and shows a weekly programme which takes place in a brothel, containing more swearing than a navvies day out; in a biography of the poet Philip Larkin, shown at 1AM in the morning, beeped his most famous poem:

They beep you up your mum and dad

Really offensive, poetry 4 hours after the watershed...

Edited by Bloggsworth, 27 February 2011 - 22:55.


#258 Bloggsworth

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 22:58

In those days 'Auntie' BBC regularly got her knickers in a twist and decided our delicate sensibilities needed protecting. A number of pop records she considered too rude were banned, but not, strangely, Lou Reed's Walk on the Wild Side, apparently because Auntie didn't understand what 'giving head' meant.


Not to mention that:


... then he was a she

She says, Hey babe

Take a walk on the wild side

Edited by Bloggsworth, 28 February 2011 - 00:19.


#259 Alpine a442

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 02:21

Not to mention that:


... then he was a she

She says, Hey babe

Take a walk on the wild side



Also quite aptly for this thread, i believe The Kinks hit Lola was altered because the BBC did not want the product placement of Coca Cola and so lyrics were changed to Cherry Cola
but they failed to notice "i'm glad i'm a man and so is Lola" :lol:

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#260 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 06:26

Cool, I recall that car well! One could see its propensity to oversteer with that heavy AMC motor, and that considered they did pretty well with it (2nd at a Road Atlanta heat, 6th at Road America where I saw it).

This was likely the same block in the "Wayne's World" Pacer.... not your typical cross-over for racing success.

I sure Miss Mark.... I think that's Karl Kainhofer working in the pic.

The AMC engine, was 35 lbs lighter than a all iron Chevy small block.
The last prod. tall deck engines, which I doubt Penske used, unless he was simply using NASCAR blocks, which could benefit from the taller deck, were slightly heavier but not much.


#261 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 06:33

The AMC engine, was 35 lbs lighter than a all iron Chevy small block.


Seriously? I've read many times it was much heavier than the Chevies everyone else was using.


#262 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 06:58

The AMC engine, was 35 lbs lighter than a all iron Chevy small block.


Thought I'd best check, lest I misinform.... in Argetsinger's 'Mark Donohue, Technical Excellence at Speed,' is the quote on page 257, "The Traco-developed AMC engine in the Penske Lola developed comparable power to that of the Chevy, but was significantly heavier, weighing 125 pounds more." If pressed to guess, I was recalling maybe 100 lbs. — but that seemed a high estimate.

Sorry to correct.... that's like adding a 16-year-old guy to the rear deck! They were severely held back by this disadvantage, and the center of gravity was much higher also. They significantly revised the front suspension, presumably to lessen push from the heavy rear. I would assume much stiffer rear sprung bits were placed as well. I distinctly remember how sluggishly tail happy the car was, reading of the extra weight in the day and noting Donohue's clear struggles from trackside. It was clearly a visually-different oversteer than Scheckter's Trojan doing it with abandon — and with joy. (Thanks Again, J Entin)

I was 13 so had little else to read about or notice then, short of girls, and schooling in a distant P3.

With that, they delivered in true Penske fashion, or at least could have.... given another season to develop it. That may have happened had Donohue not "retired" for the '74 season.


#263 Giraffe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 09:07

I would assume much stiffer rear sprung bits were placed as well. I distinctly remember how sluggishly tail happy the car was, reading of the extra weight in the day and noting Donohue's clear struggles from trackside. It was clearly a visually-different oversteer than Scheckter's Trojan doing it with abandon — and with joy. (Thanks Again, J Entin)


IIRC (& I'm writing this without checking my recordings of conversations with both Jerry Entin & Jody Scheckter which is not wise but I don't have the time right now) Mark's Lola T330 (HU19) AMC was entered for the Michigan round of the 1973 championship but did not appear until the June round at Mid-Ohio. Practice had finished with Jody on pole & Mark in 18th position when the Lola rolled past the Sid Taylor Racing pit and out onto the track. It transpired that the organisers had agreed to give Donohue unofficial extra track time in order to sort the car out.
The sponsor of Jody's Trojan, Sam Winston was livid and insisted that a protest be made, but Jerry Entin tried to explain to him that Mark & the Lola AMC was a worthwhile addition to the series and they should just let him get on with it. He convinced Sam that he should not withdraw the car and thereby ruin Jody's chances of winning the championship, but he nevertheless walked away from the sport that day. In the event, Jody won the race (& subsequently the championship) and Mark finished in 3rd place.

Re the oversteer in Jody's Trojan, the team was initially experiencing problems with the front tyres detaching themselves from the rims. I interviewed Jody just over a week ago and asked him about this issue; "Bullshit" he said, "I didn't use the front tyres very much as I generally drove that car sideways!" :lol:

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2011-02-28

Edited by Giraffe, 28 February 2011 - 09:33.


#264 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 09:24

Tony, I'm only pointing this out so you don't get it wrong in your book, but there's no 'a' in Donohue. :)

#265 Giraffe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 09:32

Tony, I'm only pointing this out so you don't get it wrong in your book, but there's no 'a' in Donohue. :)

Thankyou Tim. Not referring to my notes this morning & more significantly not awake yet! :blush: :wave:


#266 Duc-Man

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 09:47

Thanks for bringing this subject up again. I missed F5000 completely due to my age.
Question 1: Is there a good book about F5000?
Question 2: Does anybody have decent photos of the different Schadow DN6 versions?

Thanks in advance.


#267 Giraffe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 10:20

Question 1: Is there a good book about F5000?


Well, there is TNFer Derek Lawson's book..............

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2011-02-28

That's not Derek pictured, I hasten to add! :wave:


#268 RA Historian

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 15:18

Question 2: Does anybody have decent photos of the different Schadow DN6 versions?

I have numerous paddock shots, as well as race shots, from four separate F-5000 races in 1975-76 showing the Shadow F-5000 car in both its DN-6 and DN-6B guises. They also had somewhat different liveries, from mostly white to no white at all.

Unfortunately, due to photos being nicked, I no longer have my shots posted here.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 28 February 2011 - 15:20.


#269 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 17:29

Thought I'd best check, lest I misinform.... in Argetsinger's 'Mark Donohue, Technical Excellence at Speed,' is the quote on page 257, "The Traco-developed AMC engine in the Penske Lola developed comparable power to that of the Chevy, but was significantly heavier, weighing 125 pounds more." If pressed to guess, I was recalling maybe 100 lbs. — but that seemed a high estimate.

Sorry to correct.... that's like adding a 16-year-old guy to the rear deck! They were severely held back by this disadvantage, and the center of gravity was much higher also. They significantly revised the front suspension, presumably to lessen push from the heavy rear. I would assume much stiffer rear sprung bits were placed as well. I distinctly remember how sluggishly tail happy the car was, reading of the extra weight in the day and noting Donohue's clear struggles from trackside. It was clearly a visually-different oversteer than Scheckter's Trojan doing it with abandon — and with joy. (Thanks Again, J Entin)

I was 13 so had little else to read about or notice then, short of girls, and schooling in a distant P3.

With that, they delivered in true Penske fashion, or at least could have.... given another season to develop it. That may have happened had Donohue not "retired" for the '74 season.

Then the book is wrong.

Weight chart for engines:
the old Nash vee eight--600
New AMC vee eight--540
All iron small block Chevy--575

The difference between the last taller deck and the first version of the later engines, I have never seen.

http://fixrambler.co...weightchart.txt

Edited by Bob Riebe, 28 February 2011 - 17:38.


#270 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 17:33

Unfortunately, due to photos being nicked, I no longer have my shots posted here.

Tom


Talk to me, Tom.... the risk of this is why I haven't posted photos yet.


#271 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 17:34

Then the book is wrong.


And apparently, as are all other historical references to that motor.


#272 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 17:39

And apparently, as are all other historical references to that motor.


Yes
http://fixrambler.co...weightchart.txt


#273 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 17:41

Re relative engine weights, Mark himself in the "Unfair advantage" states "......the only difference we could not overcome was that the motor was 100lbs heavier than the Chevrolet".

#274 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 17:48

Re relative engine weights, Mark himself in the "Unfair advantage" states "......the only difference we could not overcome was that the motor was 100lbs heavier than the Chevrolet".

He was wrong.

The supposedly heavy AMC engines item has become an urban legend.
Why he said that, I do not know, but facts say it is wrong.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 28 February 2011 - 17:50.


#275 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 18:00

Thanks for bringing this subject up again. I missed F5000 completely due to my age.
Question 1: Is there a good book about F5000?
Question 2: Does anybody have decent photos of the different Schadow DN6 versions?

Thanks in advance.


1: I know of a couple by Wolfgang Klopfer, one regarding European series', the other Australian and New Zealand series'. I know of none regarding US racing, which is a shame if I'm right.
2: I have a few pics of those cars, what is your interest?


#276 rateus

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 18:36

1: I know of a couple by Wolfgang Klopfer, one regarding European series', the other Australian and New Zealand series'. I know of none regarding US racing, which is a shame if I'm right.

Klopfer (aka TNFer 'island') did also do a book on the US series - go for the second printing as he added lots of photos.

#277 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 19:16

Klopfer (aka TNFer 'island') did also do a book on the US series - go for the second printing as he added lots of photos.


Hey, Thanks, I never knew that!

I've long been shocked at the utter lack of attention given this fabulous formula!


#278 RA Historian

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 19:18

Re F-5000 in the US, as stated, Wolfgang Klopfer has put out two books on the subject. The second is a revision and expansion of the first, with a lot more photos. (Full disclosure; a lot of these are mine). Wolfgang covers each race in the series. The only drawback, and it is not Wolfgang's fault, is that the paper is of relatively poor quality, thus inhibiting proper reproduction of the photographs.

Re the discussion of AMC vs Chevrolet engine weight. Gee, I never knew that Mark Donohue, as well as the Penske operation, was such a dunderhead that he did not know the weights of engines that Penske was using in their cars. (sarcasm intended).
Tom

#279 paulhooft

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 19:34

I have Derek Lawson's Formula 500 book,
and it is nice..
However was I am missing is a list of race results, circuit maps and so on..

Paul Hooft

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#280 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 19:35

Re F-5000 in the US, as stated, Wolfgang Klopfer has put out two books on the subject. The second is a revision and expansion of the first, with a lot more photos. (Full disclosure; a lot of these are mine). Wolfgang covers each race in the series. The only drawback, and it is not Wolfgang's fault, is that the paper is of relatively poor quality, thus inhibiting proper reproduction of the photographs.

Re the discussion of AMC vs Chevrolet engine weight. Gee, I never knew that Mark Donohue, as well as the Penske operation, was such a dunderhead that he did not know the weights of engines that Penske was using in their cars. (sarcasm intended).
Tom


RA:

Thanks for the book info, I'll seek one out (unavailable on Amazon, may be out of print).

Yes, paper is an oft-underestimated part of printing.... I've had many of my images suffer from clients' saving a few pennies per copy.

Re: Penske.... Yep. I'm sure they knew nothing of their own machines. Suggesting that Mark himself was in error is disrespectful indeed, as well as Argetsinger's wonderful efforts for our enjoyment.


#281 MCS

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 20:13

I have Derek Lawson's Formula 500 book,
and it is nice..
Paul Hooft


I totally disagree. It tells you absolutely nothing that you couldn't have learned from Autosport and/or Motoring News at the time.

In fact - as some have said - it is nothing more than a contrived re-write of those reports. I hate it.

And it even has a photo of a Formula Atlantic car on the back cover. Aaargh. :mad: :mad: :mad:


#282 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 20:25

I totally disagree. It tells you absolutely nothing that you couldn't have learned from Autosport and/or Motoring News at the time.

In fact - as some have said - it is nothing more than a contrived re-write of those reports. I hate it.

And it even has a photo of a Formula Atlantic car on the back cover. Aaargh. :mad: :mad: :mad:


Time for a new F5000 book!


#283 xj13v12

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 21:20

Time for a new F5000 book!

Tony Loxley and others are putting together a coffee table book on Australian F5000 racing. Judging by his Speedway books it will be a quality product but it is not a race by race history. There is commentary by many top F5000 racers. Contributers include Ray Bell and Max Stahl providing the bulk of the written words. Look for it later this year.

#284 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 21:29

Tony Loxley and others are putting together a coffee table book on Australian F5000 racing. Judging by his Speedway books it will be a quality product but it is not a race by race history. There is commentary by many top F5000 racers. Contributers include Ray Bell and Max Stahl providing the bulk of the written words. Look for it later this year.


Fabulous, and Thanks.... I'll watch for it!

#285 paulhooft

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 21:34

I have Derek Lawson's Formula 500 book,
and it is nice..
However was I am missing is a list of race results, circuit maps and so on..

Paul Hooft


I DON'T SAY IT IS A BAD BOOK!
I have this book about the 1 1/2 litre formula by Mark Whitelock and Veloce..
It has some faults,
and there are no track maps..
however, and
if only...
Paul

#286 jj2728

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 21:39

Re the discussion of AMC vs Chevrolet engine weight. Gee, I never knew that Mark Donohue, as well as the Penske operation, was such a dunderhead that he did not know the weights of engines that Penske was using in their cars. (sarcasm intended).
Tom


I too was perplexed by 'urban myth' and 'facts' statement. And now I'm curious, what are the facts and how closely did it compare to the Chevy?

#287 MCS

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 21:56

I too was perplexed by 'urban myth' and 'facts' statement. And now I'm curious, what are the facts and how closely did it compare to the Chevy?

Can't believe that Donohue and Penske would have been naive - irrespective, they may have been provided with a load of money to give the AMC a go - just a thought (and nothing more) on my part.


Edited by MCS, 01 March 2011 - 06:22.


#288 E1pix

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:03

I too was perplexed by 'urban myth' and 'facts' statement. And now I'm curious, what are the facts and how closely did it compare to the Chevy?


It seems the facts are up for grabs on this one.

But it also seems that Messrs. Donohue and Argetsinger would know.... beyond what could be a single-digit data entry error on just one site.

If anything, Mr. Donohue would understate facts about the shortcomings of a sponsor's product. I recall reading about the weight disadvantage in the day, in Autoweek, et al.

Beyond that, I get annoyed by some who love to argue with total strangers. I'm here to relive the grand days of racing, and for the sheer fun of those recollections.

#289 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:10

Re relative engine weights, Mark himself in the "Unfair advantage" states "......the only difference we could not overcome was that the motor was 100lbs heavier than the Chevrolet".

By 74 I think the Chevs were alloy headed, Brownfields etc. I have never heard of an alloy head for a Rambler motor. Nor have I seen a 5l Rambler engine. Were they a destroked and short deck Rambler Rebel engine? If so they are heavier than a Chev. They can be made to go really well but nothing advailable now for them.
The Mopars used were short stroke 340s ofcourse but really did they survive that long?
All this hoo ha about weight. Where were the Fords? Tiny little engine compared with a Chev, even in Boss 302 form, though those Clevo heads would make them top heavy.

#290 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:10

I too was perplexed by 'urban myth' and 'facts' statement. And now I'm curious, what are the facts and how closely did it compare to the Chevy?

Penske and Donohue were human, covering their butts for not doing as well as expected, maybe; playing head-games with the competition; who knows but as much as some Penske lovers might want, they were wrong about the AMC engine weight.
Even the Nash engine the new block replaces was not as heavy as the urban legend makes the thin wall engine to be.
An error or deliberation, no ones knows.

Look at this chart it give weights for most U.S. engines.
http://fixrambler.co...weightchart.txt




#291 jj2728

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:12

Did someone want a Shadow pic?

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#292 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:20

Penske and Donohue were human, covering their butts for not doing as well as expected, maybe; playing head-games with the competition; who knows but as much as some Penske lovers might want, they were wrong about the AMC engine weight.
Even the Nash engine the new block replaces was not as heavy as the urban legend makes the thin wall engine to be.
An error or deliberation, no ones knows.

Look at this chart it give weights for most U.S. engines.
http://fixrambler.co...weightchart.txt

Most of those weights are very suspect, would have to be taken with a very large grain of salt!

#293 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:22

By 74 I think the Chevs were alloy headed, Brownfields etc. I have never heard of an alloy head for a Rambler motor. Nor have I seen a 5l Rambler engine. Were they a destroked and short deck Rambler Rebel engine? If so they are heavier than a Chev. They can be made to go really well but nothing advailable now for them.
The Mopars used were short stroke 340s ofcourse but really did they survive that long?
All this hoo ha about weight. Where were the Fords? Tiny little engine compared with a Chev, even in Boss 302 form, though those Clevo heads would make them top heavy.

The first AMC comp. engnes were stroke 287s for the Trans-Am.
By the time Penske arrived they were allowig destroking.

Alloy heads were not allowed in the F-A series.
There were no U.S. after market alloy engines for any make till after the Formula A series died.
Gurney and I think Donovan has the first ones for Chevy.

Which style AMC blocks ran there, the first Nash based engine or the later one, thin-wall casting?
When AMC increased the size of the second gen. from 287-390 to 304-401, the deck was raised by a small amount.

Perhaps not down-under but there is quite a bit available for AMC engines now, including all alloy blccks.
Alloy AMC engines ran in Indy cars in the late seventies, after the Formula A series died.
By then sadly AMC was wrapping up its racing involvement.

#294 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:37

Most of those weights are very suspect, would have to be taken with a very large grain of salt!

Well one can look at it this way= the 575 weight for a small block Chevy has been around a looooong time and not challenged, so, why would AMC design a new thin wall casting that is from seventy five to one hundred pounds heavier than the engine it replaces.

The boat anchor weight bs has been around as long as the Ford and Studebaker are the same 289 legend.

Some people get real touchy when the Penske=Donohue concern are treated as mere humans, with all the failings.

Lets take your skepticism and say-- the new engine WAS as heavy, six hundred pounds, as the one it replaced, that would make the AMC engine twenty five pounds heavier than the Chevy, which was one hundred pounds heavier than the small-block Ford. Yet the few Fords that ran did not run away with the series.

#295 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 22:42

Beyond that, I get annoyed by some who love to argue with total strangers. I'm here to relive the grand days of racing, and for the sheer fun of those recollections.

Then do not spread rumors and just expect others to just accept it.

I mentioned another rumor in a different thread, and by golly some one came out with numbers to show that, that rumor was impossible.

Did not bother me, I prefer to know what is, and what is not.

#296 jj2728

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:27

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#297 E1pix

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:31

Then do not spread rumors and just expect others to just accept it.


I simply quoted a known fact.... find someone else in your schoolyard to insult.

#298 RA Historian

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:35

Did not bother me, I prefer to know what is, and what is not.

In other words, your mind is closed. Thanks, by the way, for pointing out something that I did not know. That is, that Roger Penske, Mark Donohue, et al, were complete idiot bozos.

#299 E1pix

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:44

In other words, your mind is closed. Thanks, by the way, for pointing out something that I did not know. That is, that Roger Penske, Mark Donohue, et al, were complete idiot bozos.


RA:

The Penskes of the world used words secondary in accuracy to most anybody on the web.

Geez, where you been? ( I know this one.... at RA!)


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#300 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:21

Well one can look at it this way= the 575 weight for a small block Chevy has been around a looooong time and not challenged, so, why would AMC design a new thin wall casting that is from seventy five to one hundred pounds heavier than the engine it replaces.

The boat anchor weight bs has been around as long as the Ford and Studebaker are the same 289 legend.

Some people get real touchy when the Penske=Donohue concern are treated as mere humans, with all the failings.

Lets take your skepticism and say-- the new engine WAS as heavy, six hundred pounds, as the one it replaced, that would make the AMC engine twenty five pounds heavier than the Chevy, which was one hundred pounds heavier than the small-block Ford. Yet the few Fords that ran did not run away with the series.

A late 60s SBC is a lot heavier than a late 70s etc. 15-20lb in the block alone. Heads vary by base model up to 15lb a pair. Small journal cranks weigh less than large etc So unless you weigh them how can 1 figure fit all?
And that is just a Chev, the others are similar.
An Aussie Clevo is heavier and stronger than the US one.
A 302W with 70s heads will never flow the same as Chev ones. Unless it is Boss and then it is very much a topend engine. Good power but very high in RPM, and a Boss is a lot heavier than a std Windsor.
My limited experience with Ramblers is that they can make good power but are quite heavy.