9 replies to this topic

[Tony Kaye]

In 2000 Reyna posted a list of the racing results of the de Vizcaya brothers, who raced in the twenties and early thirties. In December of the same year, a thread was introduced titled ‘Norvege’, which before long morphed into a discussion of the de Vizcaya brothers. In response to many questions, Felix Muelas wrote a detailed and interesting analysis of their racing careers. Soon, however, the thread petered out, only to reappear three years later with exciting news from Jimmy Piget, who had unearthed some of the de Vizcaya family birth certificates. Strangely this failed to generate much interest, possibly due to the misleading title of the thread, and it once more sank to the murky depths of TNF Bay.

Here it is again in summarized form and under a more suitable title in the hope that there may be new information about the brothers.

To recap the old thread, there were three de Vizcaya brothers who raced, Pierre, the best known, Fernand and André. They came from Altdorf in Alsace and were closely connected with Ettore Bugatti and his cars, initially through their father, Baron Augustin de Vizcaya

Then Jimmy found the birth certificates of FIVE de Vizcaya children in Altdorf - Antonio Augustin Jean (20 April 1902), Marie Paul Stanislas Francisco (11 April 1905), Marie Jean Pierre and two sisters (1897 and 1907), but Fernand and André were not among them. He postulated that these two must have been born elsewhere, possibly when the Baron was on assignment with his bank.

When the thread evaporated, one critical piece of evidence seems to have been overlooked. Felix stated that Fernand died in an airplane crash in 1932 and Jimmy stated that Antonio Augustin Jean had been killed in an airplane crash in about 1931. What is the probability of two sons being killed in two separate crashes within a year of each other? Not very great.

The two brothers could have been killed in the same accident, but this seems improbable as neither Jimmy nor Felix mentioned a second victim in the crash. It is also possible that either Jimmy or Felix misidentified the crash victim. But there is a third possibility which merits consideration, namely that Fernand and Antonio Augustin Jean were the same person.

It is by no means unusual for a people to adopt a different first name from the one (or in this case three) given to them by their parents. Often it is the result of a nickname acquired during childhood. If as Felix says, there were three sons, then by elimination André could have been born as Marie Paul Stanislas Francisco.

And if there had been more than three brothers, wouldn’t the other two have at least dabbled in racing like their brothers and father? I am not aware of another de Vizcaya in the racing records at that time.

Can anyone throw any further light on this problem? Where is Inspector Clouseau when he’s needed?

[HistoryFan]

These answers would also be interesting for me.

[cpbell]

I didn't even realise there was a third that raced.

Edited by cpbell, 29 February 2012 - 17:01.

[Felix Muelas]

I am sorry this took so horribly long to be addressed

 

 

In order not to make this a re-writing of the whole "de Vizcaya" investigation, let´s go up with some of Tony´s remarks

 

 

To recap the old thread, there were three de Vizcaya brothers who raced, Pierre, the best known, Fernand and André.

 

Well, the answer is no, there were four : Jean was ocasionally co-driver for his brothers. He was also the holder of several international records in aviation.

 

 

...possibly when the Baron was on assignment with his bank.

 

Agustin de Vizcaya (the father) was not a Baron. This was originally published in 1912 at the Allgemeine Automobile Zeitung magazine, but it was a mistake. That nobody bothered to correct until Norbert Steinhauser published his 3 volume bio of Bugatti almost 96 year after. Recently this myth, and some others -like the connection between Agustin de Vizcaya and the Darmstadter Bank, that never existed- have been addressed in Spain by Alex Verges.

 

 

Felix stated that Fernand died in an airplane crash in 1932 and Jimmy stated that Antonio Augustin Jean had been killed in an airplane crash in about 1931. What is the probability of two sons being killed in two separate crashes within a year of each other? Not very great.

 

Yes, my fault basically.

 

Jimmy was right when he mentioned 1931 (18th December) as the date when Jean de Vizcaya had his airplane accident and died.

 

1932 (14th September) was the date when Fernando died. He died of a heart attack AFTER having had his last airplane class : he was practising to obtain his airplane pilot license...on September 15th.

[Vitesse2]

Pierre de Vizcaya also seems to have been in the aviation business - apparently on the design side. The Caudron PV200 is described in Flight as built under licence from him - confirmed here in NACA Aircraft Circular 176 (page 5). Apparently only the one prototype was built: somehow I'm not sure a high-wing monoplane 'pusher' amphibian was all that sensible an idea. It's certainly an odd-looking bird viewed from the side ...

 

[Vitesse2]

Just to confirm - Jean's fatal air crash is also recorded in Flight, which confirms the December 18th 1931 date. He was apparently attempting a record for light seaplanes at 'Masmejean' - a location which, if Google Maps is to be believed, looks somewhat unlikely for a seaplane crash . See 'French pilots crash' in the right-hand column.

 

http://www.flightglo...?search=viscaya

[uechtel]

Pierre de Vizcaya also seems to have been in the aviation business - apparently on the design side. The Caudron PV200 is described in Flight as built under licence from him - confirmed here in NACA Aircraft Circular 176 (page 5). Apparently only the one prototype was built: somehow I'm not sure a high-wing monoplane 'pusher' amphibian was all that sensible an idea. It's certainly an odd-looking bird viewed from the side ...

 

 

It looks like if the floats could be replaced by normal wheels, like on the photo in front of the machine at the exhibition.

[ReWind]

I have been told (and shown) that there is a 12-page article by Àlex Vergés about Agustín de Vizcaya and his racing sons Fernando, Pierre, Jean & Andrés in Spanish magazine "autódromo" no. 10 (13.02.2015, p. 54 - 65).

[uechtel]

This is confusing, I understand the family comes from Alsace in France, but they are regarded to be Spanish?

[a_tifoosi]

Àlex Vergés, author of the article recently published in Autódromo (as ReWind already mentioned), has kindly shared the birth certificate of Agustin de Vizcaya:

 

 

The article also includes the date of birth of all 7 sons, i.e.:

1. Joseph Marie Paul Fernand (Fernando/Fernand) - July 19, 1892 in Dorlisheim
2. Marie Jean Pierre (Pedro/Pierre) - July 5, 1894 in Altorf
3. Marie Hélène (Jacqueline Dolores) - September 26, 1897 in Altorf
4. Antonio Jean Augustin (Juan/Jean) - April 20, 1902 in Altorf
5. Andrea Bades Paul (Andrés/André) - June 18, 1903 in Baden-Baden
6. Marie Stanislas Paul Francisco (Francisco) - April 6, 1905 in Altorf
7. Marie Anne Hélène Christine (Cristina) - April 12, 1907 in Altorf

(In brackets, the first name commonly used)