132 replies to this topic

[Dutchy]

Sadly, I would have to agree with your summary of the situation. Sadly The Multi Union is not the only famous pre war special to have suffered this fate.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Bit of topic :

dretceterini : Bjørn Kjer and Eddie Fitzgerald would like to get in contact with you ! Our mails through the TNF are "failures" !!!

[dretceterini]

I don't check my PMs here that often and just found ones from T54 and Eddie, but your's never came through. My direct e-mail is dretceterini@hotmail.com

Stu

[bradbury west]

In this month's Classic and Sportscar, in his column "From the Cockpit" Mick Walsh writes fully about Ben Black's Multi Union thread in TNF, and develops the issues raised in this thread. He also gives a concise profile of MU11, wondering in which guise the entity of 5003 would be best remembered as MU or tipo B. He raises the query about exactly what remains of MU in Mr Black's garage, where it sits "on its wheels since 1990", which brings us back to Ben Black's original post in this thread.

Perhaps with C&SC's readership it may be a case of "watch the space" for responses and opinions.

As a longtime admirer of Chris Staniland, I am invariably frustrated at the apparent lack of published photographs of Multi Union both in period and on its very rare outings with Pat Lindsay and later Chris Mann.

Roger Lund.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Ben Black
I have read the various comments regarding the Multi Union and wish express the car is not a pile of bits in a shed, but very much complete, sitting on its wheels since 1990 in near form as it was in its hay day. I hope this resolves some of the speculation.

So, no more news yet then? Please refer to previous postings.

Roger Lund.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by bradbury west

So, no more news yet then? Please refer to previous postings.

Roger Lund.

Still no more news?
RL

[frogeye59]

Originally posted by bradbury west


Still no more news?
RL

Well Roger there seems to be a bit of serendipity going on today !!

I have just opened my March 2008 Classic and Sportscar Magazine and lo and behold there is a piece headed "MULTI UNION SURVIVAL SHOCK" in Charles Ware's Lost and Found Column.

The column tally's pretty much with most of the comments in this thread, on what happened to the car whilst in David Black's hands, however, the implication is that the car has survived in a much more intact condition than thought.

Photo's which to be fair could have been taken any time in the last few years are presented as exclusive new "spy" shots.

It states both Stanilands creation and the Alfa "5003" still exist in Germany but the fate of the special is unclear. (does this mean C&SC are not convinced ???)

Regards

David

[Doug Nye]

Huh...

DCN

[Ted Walker]

So what s sitting in Mr Blacks garage ???? Did Chris Mann ever take the Muti-Union to bits to remake the P3 ??????.Is it April the first today ?????????????

[bradbury west]

After reading the C&SC article I am even more confused. If the photo of MU11 is correct and current, exactly what has the gentleman in Germany got parked in his office?
Roger Lund.

[Ralf Pickel]

I thought it might be of interest to post some photos of (supposedly) "5003" in its current Tipo B state, taken at Klausen hillclimb 9/2006.

[Dutchy]

I've just read the article in C&S. As far I'm aware it was Christopher Mann who it was alleged dismantled the Multi Union to recreate Tipo B '5003'. I recall a statement from the VSCC stating that neither the car nor the perpetrator would be eligible for their events.
Presumably the Multi Union now uses a replica chassis frame with the ifs, coil spring rear suspension , Lockheed brakes and bodywork it wore in 1939. I suppose one might just about say there's enough there to say it's still the Multi Union. On the other hand..........

[bradbury west]

Perhaps Stuart/Twinny could merge these threads as the hyphen in the one pasted below may lead to it being hard to find under a BB search for MU, unless you seached under Staniland etc..
http://forums.autosp...=Museum sources
Roger Lund.

[bradbury west]

Still no news of MU II, nor photographs of what was reported to be standing on whatever wheels, wherever.
Looking through Bolster's "Specials" I came across his narrative of Multi Union. JVB's description of the series of modifications is very revealing, and is a superb testimony to Staniland, his backers and his engineers, and sits well alongside Jenks' description in his Directory. Period shots tend to be the usual ones, but on page 98 there is a frontal shot of this exquisite device with the talented Staniland at the wheel.
As ever, in hope rather than expectation, Roger Lund.

[bradbury west]

BUMP

In the current issue of C&SC under their Goodwood FoS highlights of "machines not to miss" we have

"The Multi Union - the legendary ex Chris Staniland Brooklands single seater racer"

I cannot wait...............perhaps one of those "in the know" can clarify further
Roger Lund

[Simon Thomas]

BUMP

In the current issue of C&SC under their Goodwood FoS highlights of "machines not to miss" we have

"The Multi Union - the legendary ex Chris Staniland Brooklands single seater racer"

I cannot wait...............perhaps one of those "in the know" can clarify further
Roger Lund

I wonder who the entrant is? Eckart Berg was involved with the car in Germany just a few years ago.
Simon

[bradbury west]

I am more interested in WHAT it is, or purports to be, bearing in mind it morphed into a "tipo B" a while ago.
Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

Thinking more about it, I have worked it out.
Of course, in keeping with fashionable trends, it is a

" continuation model", ie Multi Union III

Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 05 June 2010 - 11:21.

[Marticelli]

It all seems to beg the question about what is provenance in the context of old racing cars. If you read Jenks definitive book about the famous Maserati 3011, which was not only famous when new but was conspicuously in use for most of its long life, you discover this car was not as it was presumed to be when Ivan Dutton commenced restoration for its then owner, as they discovered it was actually an amalgam of two Maseratis.

And during this restoration, many key components of the car were replaced by newly made parts, and almost enough original parts remain unused to make a second, arguably more original recreation of 3011 than the one now seen around... Most touching is the picture on p88 of Jenks book showing a "truly historic piece of aluminium that hangs on the wall of Ivan Dutton's workshop. The delapidated radiator cowl off the Maserati that dates back to 1934". Why was it not refitted to the restored car where it belongs??

And also of course, there is the small matter of market value, as a "genuine" P3 is evidently worth a lot more than a nicely restored special.... Which is no doubt why Tula constructed a batch of Type 59s from one dismantled car some years ago...

Marticelli

Edited by Marticelli, 05 June 2010 - 13:39.

[Simon Thomas]

It all seems to beg the question about what is provenance in the context of old racing cars. If you read Jenks definitive book about the famous Maserati 3011, which was not only famous when new but was conspicuously in use for most of its long life, you discover this car was not as it was presumed to be when Ivan Dutton commenced restoration for its then owner, as they discovered it was actually an amalgam of two Maseratis.

And during this restoration, many key components of the car were replaced by newly made parts, and almost enough original parts remain unused to make a second, arguably more original recreation of 3011 than the one now seen around... Most touching is the picture on p88 of Jenks book showing a "truly historic piece of aluminium that hangs on the wall of Ivan Dutton's workshop. The delapidated radiator cowl off the Maserati that dates back to 1934". Why was it not refitted to the restored car where it belongs??

And also of course, there is the small matter of market value, as a "genuine" P3 is evidently worth a lot more than a nicely restored special.... Which is no doubt why Tula constructed a batch of Type 59s from one dismantled car some years ago...

Marticelli

This is very interesting but off topic for the Multi Union. I have seen the original radiator cowl for 3011, fascinating but in poor condition, probably too far gone to replace on the car, if it was restored all the inherent history is lost. Because it is original the previous and current owner have been able to learn about colours and the Straight details from it. Lucky old sod that I am I now have the cowl from the Crabbe W125 now hanging in the garage....this will not be restored or even cleaned!
Simon

[Marticelli]

I don't think its so off topic (needless to say) because the sad fact is that now such cars are worth small (or even large) fortunes, their historical importance is of less concern than their commercial value. The indisputable fact is that at the time it was sold, the MU was worth more as a donor car to recreate an 'original' P3 than it was just left as the fabulous creation of Chris Staniland.

That the remains of the MU left over from the P3 recreation have been rebuilt into something resembling the MU is also hardly surprising because, whilst not as valuable as a P3, the MU is still a valuable commodity and a replica incorporating the remains of the original MU a better thing to have than a nondescript pile of bits... provided nobody is subsequently fooled into thinking its still the MU. Lets not forget that the MU as sold at auction was itself heavily restored and much of it may not have been very original either, just like Maserati 3011.

I do envy you the Crabbe Merc cowl though!! Whoever made the new cowl for 3011 didn't even get the shape right, which is clear if you study the contemporary pics in Jenks' book...

Marticelli

[grocons]

I have been hunting around on the net trying to track down a photo of the Multi-Union as I didn't know what the car looked like.

The only photograph that I could find can be found at the following link:-

http://www.klemcoll....J-12.aspx?page=

[bradbury west]

I recall discussing the whole MU rebuild to P3 issue with Jenks in the early 90s and he was incandescent about it for a variety of reasons. However, his final line was that they would both be fakes by his definitions.

Roger Lund

[Simon Thomas]

I recall discussing the whole MU rebuild to P3 issue with Jenks in the early 90s and he was incandescent about it for a variety of reasons. However, his final line was that they would both be fakes by his definitions.

Roger Lund

I spoke with Jenks too in the early 90s about Emeryson and other matters. Without being too jingoistic I really thought the Chris Staniland period with the car was so important, he sat in the Multi Union, drove it, and later lost his life as a test pilot in the service of his country. Something has been lost to justify the craving for two owners to have an "old racer" in their garage.
Simon

[bradbury west]

I am always happy to bump up anything to do with the Multi Union, so;
A couple of Multi Union connected photos from Brooklands. Scroll right to the bottom of the page for higher res images and click on them. There is a good narrative to each picture.
http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3f2309fc2e

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item41717ee1a2
Usual disclaimers
Roger Lund

[Doug Nye]

I spoke with Jenks too in the early 90s about Emeryson and other matters. Without being too jingoistic I really thought the Chris Staniland period with the car was so important, he sat in the Multi Union, drove it, and later lost his life as a test pilot in the service of his country. Something has been lost to justify the craving for two owners to have an "old racer" in their garage.
Simon

I detect nothing 'jingoistic' there...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 21 March 2013 - 19:02.

[cooper997]

Working through a big pile of interesting stuff that I received last week and spotted this in a Brooklands Society Gazette Vol 4 #1 New Year 1979 issue that is relevant here.and will hopefully be enjoyed by someone. Unfortunately I don't have the Jack Emmott feature that brought this feature to life. But if you do, you might be kind enough to share it on TNF.

 

 

Stephen

[Charlieman]

Thanks for that feature, Stephen. 

 

I like reading about the people and ideas around the Multi-Union. Its loss is depressing. Public appearances of the recreation -- at arm's length from those associated with its destruction -- might mitigate a little.

[Tim Murray]

In line with Roger's eminently sensible suggestion made almost exactly ten years ago in what is now post 113 of this thread, the two Multi-Union threads have been merged.

[Steve L]

Hasn't the Multi Union been out and about in the last few years? I believe it is now owned by the same person (a German?) who has the Alfa GP car recreated from its original parts. Pretty sure Simon Moore's book described exactly what happened (although I do bot have my copy with me at the moment).

[cooper997]

Thanks for that feature, Stephen. 

 

I like reading about the people and ideas around the Multi-Union. Its loss is depressing. Public appearances of the recreation -- at arm's length from those associated with its destruction -- might mitigate a little.

No problem Charlie, It was purely stumbled upon and thought it was worth scanning for TNF. If you, or any other TNF member would like a higher res version for files, just pm an email address.

 

We just need someone to stumble on Jack Emmott's side of the story. That must be in an 1978 Brooklands Gazette.

 

Stephen

[Steve L]

Super article about the demise (and possible rebirth?) of the fabulous Multi Union on the Porter Press site!

 

Backfire from a famous Brooklands racer, by Michael Kliebenstein — Porter Press International

[bradbury west]

What a welcome post. Many thanks for bringing it to our attention, endorsing the history which we all know, and vindicating, perhaps, some of the earlier posts.  The photographs are especially welcome.

Roger Lund

 

edit.

Many moons ago I recall Bill Boddy mentioning that someone, in Derbyshire??, was proposing a book on Chris Staniland’s life and activities, which would have included his aeroplane activities as well as racing cars. I may have missed  any further announcement, but does anyone know  if the work materialised?.

Edited by bradbury west, 21 March 2023 - 10:00.