115 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

From what I have been able to find in my research, Masten Gregory was the first bespectacled driver in Formula One. Can anyone here shoot this down with some obscure driver who also wore glasses that noboby is aware of? Was Masten the first bespectacled driver in all of Grand Prix racing or would that be too difficult to substantiate. Or course when I am referring to bespectacled drivers, I mean those who needed them to drive. I am sure there were a few that needed reading glasses to see fine print, you know the fine print in their contracts that said that they were a number 2 or 3 driver and had to move over or give up their car for number 1 if needed.

[Keir]

Masten was the first, at least in the modern era, 1950 to present. After him came Bobby Rahal and Jacques Villeneuve.
Of course, if you want to include drivers from other Formula clases, there's me!!!

[Leif Snellman]

"B Bira" used glasses or goggles with corrective lenses.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Rudi Hasse wore glasses when driving, even before he won the 1937 Belgian GP.

[Ray Bell]

Surely there weren't any in the glory era... when dust would be such a problem?
Incredible to know that of Hasse and Bira... I'd be sure that some of the pommie (and other) privateers of the early fifties were bespectacled as well, there were so many of them.

[Roger Clark]

Bob Gerrard for one

[Ray Bell]

There you are... it's amazing what the old newsreels will remind you of!
Others, anyone?

[Huw Jenjin]

You are forgetting Rolf Stommelen and Larry Perkins.

Does JV wear glasses when he races?

[Keir]

You see that, I thought my memory was pretty good until you brought up Rolf and the "Cowangie Kid"!!!!
Jacques does need glasses to drive, but he may have tried contacts in the past.

[jarama]

And what about Andrea de Adamich, nicknamed "il proffessorino" -the little teacher-?

[Keir]

I'll have myself taken out and flogged in the morning!!!

[Roger Clark]

I'm pretty sure that Villeneuve was the first bespectacled driver to win a world championship GP, and that Hasse was the only other to win a frontlime GP. When a young Brazilian driver in the 1980s asked Denis Jenkinson what was the main pyhsical atribute required of a racing driver he replied "eyes"

It is true that the majority of successful racing drivers have had exceptional eyesight by any standards. This is illustrated by rosemeyer's ability to identify on-coming vehicles in fog before any of his passengers could see even a vague shape.

Interestingly the same is not true of American racing and there have been several successful Indy drivers who wore spectacles. i've often wondered whether this is because a certain degree of shortsightedness is an asset at 240mph on an oval

[Keir]

Being "blind as a Bat", I have never put any real stock in the "eyes" reference. Moss could read a newspaper from across the room, but I prefer to read mine three inches away from my face. I believe that vision is really too abstract to define how it might interact with driving a race car. But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Wolf]

It is said that Moss could almost instantly zoom in/out, and he himself said that he could see track and rev counter at the same time. That are abilities that certainly help a driver; but I do not know if these are in any way related to dioptry. To assume that doesn't seem to make much sense.

[rainern]

A few more additions :
Philippe Adams (BEL)
Alan Brown (GBR)
Bernard Collomb (FRA)

Rainer

[Felix Muelas]

Rainer !!!

What a pleasure seeing you around (finally!)
Now, guys, this is serious...you have the full 8W Team at The Nostalgia Forum...
Welcome, my friend
:-)

Felix

(It´s always so cute to see those serious gentlemen being "junior members" for a couple of days...)

[Keir]

Rainer,
I know that Adams did F1, but what about Brown and Collomb?

[Flicker]

Alan Brown (GBR)
Born 20 Nov 1919 Malton
F1 Debut 1952, Switzerland
Seasons 1952-1954

One of the stars of the immediate post-war 500cc firmament, this truck sales representative employed by Dennis Motors at Guildford made his name by winning the 1951 Luxembourg GP in a Cooper 500 F3.
He finished fifth in a Cooper-Bristol in the following year's Swiss Grand Prix, and was later entrusted with tests of the first Vanwall at Odiham airfield before handling it on its maiden race.

He co-founded the Ecurie Richmond team with fellow driver Eric Brandon with the pair od them running front-engined Cooper-Bristols to F2 rules.

http://www.askide.co.../careers/95.cfm


Bernard Collomb (FRA)
Born 07 Oct 1930 Nice
F1 Debut 1961, France
Seasons 1961-1964

A garage owner from Nice, Collomb began his career in motorcycles before acquiring a Cooper-Climax F2 car which he raced in 1960. He raised his ambitions for 1961 and entered a number of F1 events.
He ran in four Grand Prix between 1961 and 1963, initially using a Cooper- Climax and later a similarly powered Lotus 24, although his best results came in non-championship events.

http://www.askide.co...careers/133.cfm

Riccardo Paletti

Philippe Adams

deAdamich

Bob Gerard

Masten Gregory

Rudi Fischer

Larry Perkins

Charles Pozzi

Bobby Rahal
[p][Edited by Flicker on 09-19-2000]

[Joe Fan]

Great work Flicker! Wouldn't it be great to see an entire grid of bespectacled drivers?

[Paul Hartshorne]

Interestly, no-one has yet mentioned that the youngest driver ever to win a World Championship event wore glasses.

Troy Ruttman, winner of the 1952 Indy 500 (which counted for WC points) at age 22, wore glasses when racing. He started one Grand Prix, the 1958 French at Reims driving a Centro-Sud entered 250F.

[Huw Jenjin]

Not in the rain...they wouldn't see each other.

[Ian McKean]

This is my first post for about 4 months! Quite a nostalgic occasion for me.

I think I heard that Villoresi wore glasses towards the end of his career. Can't think of any more from the top rank, but Chris Lambert was quite successful in F2 until he tragically died after an accident with Reggazoni.

Ref Jenks' reply to a hopeful (Roger Clark's post) I think Jenks made a big thing about eyesight because he wore glasses and wanted an excuse for not being a good driver himself. In his book on the Mille Miglia with Moss he wrote that Moss could identify a following competitor in the rear view mirror before he could looking directly at it. Also he mentioned that Moss could read a magazine page reduced to an inch high, so it wasn't just his distance vision that was exceptional.

But Brundle often remarks on TV how little you can see with a dirty visor, so is it really that important? I suspect that exceptional eyesight is probably at least as important on the Mille Miglia and secret rally stages as in F1 or Indy cars. Of course secret stages are a thing of the past at the top level now, but Timo Salonen was exceptional in the 70's and 80's.

Probably more people wear contact lenses these days. It always surprised me that Navratilova wore glasses on court. (I reckon tennis and squash require similarly good hand/eye coordination, judgement of speed and distance, and balance as driving fast.) Squash maestro Jonah Barrington wore lenses.

[Ray Bell]

Not F1, to be sure, but the great Niel Allen challenged for (led, actually) the Tasman Cup in F5000 with spectacles.

[Barry Lake]

To add to the list of racing drivers who wore glasses, I just came across mention of mid-1970s March works F2 driver, Maurizio Flammini described as "bespectacled Italian".

[jmcgavin]

Forini, who drove for Osella at the Italian GP 1986, and maybe one more race that year

[Dironey]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Stefan Johansson race with glasses, but maybe that was after F1.

[Ray Bell]

In CART? Hardly any different... got to count him if it's so... any verification, anyone?

[Paul Hartshorne]

Does anyone remember the year that Erik Comas signed a contract with a French sunglasses manufacturer and had to wear their product during each Grand Prix? I think it was 1994.

[Barry Lake]

Since we've branched out of F1, in Australia there are Colin Bond, Allan Moffat, rally driver Greg Carr, for a start.

[Barry Lake]

Christian Murchison who has moved from Formula Ford to Formula Holden and just had a test drive in England. He also wears glasses, looking like a studious, baby-faced schoolboy.

[Keir]

Stefan did indeed wear glasses, but after he was out of F1.
So, I don't know if we can count him.

[Barry Lake]

Add "Possum" Bourne, New Zealand rally driver who makes a habit of winning the Australian Rally Championship.

[William Dale Jr]

In CART, Jimmy Vasser and Patrick Carpentier race with glasses on, but I don't know if they're prescription. Paul Tracy used to wear glasses earlier in his career and so did the late Greg Moore, but I don't remember if Moore wore his while racing.

As for Aussies, Mark Skaife wears glasses outside of the car, as does his 1988 Bathurst co-driver Anders Olofsson. Then there's Andrew "Mad Andy" Miedecke (but I think he wears contacts nowadays), John Bowe, George Fury. And is it me or does Christian Murchison look like a younger Jacques Villeneuve?[p][Edited by William Dale Jr on 10-10-2000]

[Ray Bell]

Hope nobody blames the glasses for Paletti's fate...
I was just about to mention Fury, too, but is it right to get into this level of driver, particularly since the original question was about F1 drivers before Masten Gregory.

[Barry Lake]

Ray
I don't think it hurts to grab these opportunities to get all of this information together while we are on the job.
Otherwise, some day in the future you might be writing about some connected subject and wishing like hell you had the information.
We now have the ability to file this sort of thing as text files on a computer, which will find it for you if you've forgotten where you filed it - unlike my filing cabinets, which have NEVER found the little pieces of paper I have asked them to find for me over the years. I always had to find them for myself.
Is there such a thing as too much information? Not, I think, if it is in a format that you can sift out the bits you need. Ahhh, spreadsheets and databases; I love 'em!
Barry

[Ray Bell]

Don't know much about them... how about a bit of training?
When you have time, of course... after dancing, while your sweat is still rolling in beads off your forehead.

[Falcadore]

Murchison is certifiably mad I'll say that. Fast yes, fast enough for Europe? Dunno. Mad? How many people you know walk through Whitsunday Island Hotels wearing inflated airline boyancy vests....

You have a love for the spreadsheet Barry?
I have a few here you might be interested in - the backbone spreadsheet of VESRIX for one - (which is currently being updated to include chassis numbers) and another containing major sedan races at Bathurst.

Something I was going to put in the reasearch thread...
On the subject of the latter spreadsheet, I would very much like to include the 1962 Bathurst 6 Hour into it if possible. Presently it has all major long distance sedan races in it, the Bathurst 500/1000 1963-1998, Bathurst 12 Hour 1991-1994, Bathurst Classic 1997-1999, Bathurst 3 Hour 1997-1999, the one-off 1999 Bathurst 500, Bathurst 300 & Bathurst 100. Im presently looking at other races that should be in there. My ecords are incomplete with a few races, the 1991 Bathurst 12 Hour, the 1962 Bathurst 6 Hour and any other long distance sedan races worthy of inclusion. I project it's use for a future expansion of the VESRIX project.

Heh - I gets to love them a bits too much - I play with them a lot to extrude the data I need for the VESRIX press releases, but presently the data is limited to V8SUpercar, an expansion back into Group A and Group C I'd very much like to do.

Any advice on chasing down said race results would be most appreicated. I recently lost my job and have time on my hands while I await the next employment opportunity and if I can use it productively.....

In any case Barry, those spreadsheets - you want?

yours
Mark Jones

[Ray Bell]

Did you get a payout?
And what's happening with the 260Z?

[Barry Lake]

Mark
I would love to see the spreadsheets.

If you haven't already done so, you should really contact Scott Mackay at Cardross in Victoria (I think that's near Mildura - at least he lived near Mildura last time I saw him). I can't find any more contact than that. Check the White Pages for a phone number.
Scott has spent decades recording the Bathurst results to incredible degrees of accuracy and supplied his information to Chevron for the latest book ("...the First 40 Years").
He has corrected many errors over the years by tracing the races through, writing to and visiting the drivers to get their stories etc. He is very thorough. There have ben cases of the wrong co-driver being documented, incorrect car models and things like that.
Last time I spoke to him he was talking about The Forgotten Race (1962 Bathurst 6 Hour). It is one that should be recorded properly.

I think he would be keen to help. I believe he does it only because he thinks it should be done, not for any specific reward (other than the thrill of the chase and the satisfaction of a job well done).

Spare a thought for me; I am working on the results of Penrith Speedway in the 1920s and 1930s! The latter decade is a possibility, there is quite a lot of information, but the 1920s...

And how about Jack Brabham's 1940s and 1950s speedway results (racing two or three times a week for six years) and then Mount Druitt etc road racing in the 1950s. The Australian Racing Drivers Club threw all the results and programmes and photographs on Tempe Tip when they moved from Leichhardt to Amaroo park in 1973!
Two truckloads they told me. I asked why they didn't hold an auction; they would have made a fortune. I was told, "We're in the business of running motor races, not holding auctions".

[Ray Bell]

'running' motor racing or 'ruining' it?
They killed Catalina, they killed Mt Druitt (maybe it was dead anyway, but...), the lost Amaroo, they are probably doomed at Eastern Creek.
And that's without mentioning the multitude of lost opportunities with the Easter Bathurst. They didn't promote it, they let it die.
Maybe you should talk to Barry in Brisbane, Barry in Sydney?
Did I ever give you his number?
For the record, I have seen reports on the 62 6-hour in SCW and I think Wheels, undoubtedly Modern Motor was there, and RCN.

[Falcadore]

The full sad and sorry tale?

Two things I can obliguely blame. GST and Queensland State Government bidding procedures. Firstly, and this is how I've heard from a number of unsubstantiated sources - the way the Qld government handles it's major contract bidding process is purely by money. This is what electoral oversight does. Nobody (politicians or cicil servants) want to be the one to justify to the elctorate why they went with the 'home brand' contractor rather than spend more money on a quality product. So in bidding process the cheapest bid gets the contract. Major contractors have been hideously underbidding in order to get the jobs, thus to make any profit at all they turn around at the end of the job and hit the goevernment with massive variation claims. These variation claims then bite into money the government had now allocated to other major works because of the perceived money they would be saving on such a cheap initial bid. I heard there's a court case against a major contractor related to the South Bank Convention Centre.

There is only so much money in the world of course, so the process came to a screaming halt and 4 major works jobs were conacelled. Inlcuding Brisbane's Light Rail (Trams) project which is the most obvious one you'd remember Ray, along with some bypasses, tunnels, expansion of the city centre Bus tunnels and the like. All of this imapcted heavily on the work available to engineering consultants, like where I worked.

Secondly - the GST has had a MAJOR impact on new housing construction. My specialty in engineering drafting is in subdivisions, new houing estates. One major housing contractor went from building 300 homes in June to 1, count 'em, 1 house in July. Nobody will pay the extra at least $20,000 the GST demands on housing prices. While nobody is buying houses or land, no-one is developing new housing estates.

Flow on effect? My company had no work for me. I can't blame them really. 12 months ago I was doing meaningful design work, I'd just got a promotion, in the last 3 months I was doing absolute **** work. And even the **** work was running out. All the contractor drafters were sent away. Several more senior drafters were asked to take leave, or work fewer days a week. And four of us were retrenched.

I got a package though. Seven years long service IS worth something, especially since I was retrenched and not sacked. I picked up 8 weeks contract work but that's ended too.

I did pick up a job as media officer for the Queensland Sprintcar Summer Shoot-out but it's not nough money to support me. It will look great on my journalist CV, but that's not good enough to get me doing writing full time, so I'm reliant on engineering. Worst of all the Sprintcar job will deprive me of Bathurst. There's a round on Bathurst weekend.

Still there is plenty of motorsport writing work for me to do. Not enough to support me, but I'm certainly not bored. For more than 6 hours at a time anyway.

The Zed is fine. Since the suspension and exhaust were rebuilt it sounds great and handles predictably. Any further renovation work has been cancelled though of course. It's still red, and still has this annoying coating of dirt which washes off but get reapplied everytime I go to a racetrack.

That's the long version - sorry if I bored anyone. Does this sound like I'm getting a load of? My chest that is. Please will most people just skip past this very boring personal bit that has nothing to do with racing, sorry for poluting...

yeah that Murchison guy is mad.... a friend of mine informs me he's very entertaining.... Skip Jackson wears glasses I think, Drew Kruck used to. I know at least one other motor racing type with glasses, and I hate having to clean dust and/or dirt off them at race meetings. Any you guys wear contacts?

[Barry Lake]

Yes, Skip Jackson, succesful sprintcar racer in Australia and the US, does wear glasses.

[Barry Lake]

Ray
I don't have a number for Barry from Brisbane. Would you like to send it to me, please?

[Ray Bell]

Gotta find it first... and he's not in the phone book.
Didn't I give it to you before, he's the guy who got the info about the 1927 AGP at Goulburn?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Tony Kaye, a leisure-time-historian and friend of mine, who cannot post here because of his unacceptable e-mail account, asks me to post the following on his behalf:

The following is not strictly concerned with spectacles, but it is related.


Ernest Eldridge and Tommy Milton both beat the World's Land Speed Record
(the latter unofficially) and competed in many races. The remarkable thing
about them is that they had two eyes. In a similar vein, Jack Hewitt
competed in several All Stars Circuit of Champions races while 'ocularly
challenged', but I don't think Helmut Marko ever raced again after the
French Grand Prix of 1972.


Going one stage further, I witnessed what was billed as a 'brown paper bag
race' at the Orlando Speedway in about 1985. Four drivers, each accompanied
by a passenger, took part in a four lap race in regular road cars. Brown
supermarket bags were placed over the drivers helmets and the instructions
of their (terrified?) passengers were their only substitute for eyes. While
three of the drivers spent their time variously hitting the inside wall, the
outside wall or each other, the fourth driver won with consummate ease. At
first I assumed he was cheating. Not so. He really didn't need a brown paper
bag, he was completely BLIND.


Nor did he have the benefit of attending Michael Andretti's School for Blind
Racing Drivers. That came ten or more years later.'

[Ray Bell]

Do you mean that Milton and Eldridge had only one eye each?
Jim Palmer, multiple winner of the NZ Gold Star, was engaged to take over the Scuderia Veloce Brabham for the Australian Gold Star by David McKay after his parting with Spencer Martin (1966?), but to no avail. To qualify, he had to run on an Australian CAMS licence, and he couldn't get that with only one eye...
Helmut Marko was quite unlucky when he hit that bird or rock (?), and no, he didn't race again.

[KzKiwi]

Jim Palmer only had one eye? I have often wondered why he gave up racing at a comparatively young age, especially when he had built up a fairly good track record ...perhaps this is why. Ray, was this a birth defect or the result of an accident? Do you know?

[Ray Bell]

Not sure, but I think it was probably a birth defect. You wouldn't know it to look at him.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Al Bloemker wrote: "Tommy Milton was born without sight in his left eye and the leading specialists at that time all agreed that this condition could not be corrected by either treatment or surgery."

After Tommy Milton had raced for three years as a star driver with Alex Sloan’s barnstorming troupe at the dusty fair grounds he applied in 1916 for a licence with the AAA. Al Bloemker: "He passed his physical exam easily and breezed through the superficial eye tests perfectly by memorizing the charts in advance." The fact that he was blind on one eye was not discovered long after he had won the Indy 500 twice.

[Barry Lake]

You see, Ray. I told you this subject was worth pursuing!

It was a stone from a car ahead that got Helmut Marko. The reason he didn't race again, I am confident you will find, is that by then FIA rules had changed to disallow drivers sighted in only one eye.

I believe this also is what curtailed Graeme Lawrence's career.

This is another rule I would like to see a date put to, for future reference, if anyone comes across it.

Len Deighton, an Australian racing motorcyclist who later turned to cars (he brought back a Lotus 11 sports car and a Cooper Climax F2 when he returned from Europe in the early 1960s) had only one eye. He lost one as a child from either a golf club or golf ball wielded by his mother.
Len demonstrated why one-eyed drivers are banned when he turned in on a car on his blind side entering "The Tunnel of Love" at Catalina Park in his Cooper, tripped over its wheel and somersaulted (all of this from memory, details could be slightly different).