46 replies to this topic

[Jerry Entin]

In 1959 Lucky Casner bought a Maserati 250 F, chassis #2529, from Jo Bonnier. It ran in two USAC Formula Libre events, at Lime Rock on July 25th. Chuck Daigh drove it to 2nd overall and at the Meadowdale course on September 8th Zora Duntov and Paul O'Shea had a DNF with it. Conventional wisdom is that Casner realized the car was obsolete by then and that he sold it to Dave Deuble of Glenview, near Chicago. This is the line of ownership followed by David McKinney in his 250 F book.
However, the Richard Macon thread contains some photos of a 250 F that, according to Richard Macon, was sold by Casner to Jack Bellows. After A.J. Foyt's father showed no interest in buying the car, it was aquired by Chuck Nervine of Mobile, Alabama and Macon's father, of Fairhope, Alabama. They split the $2,000 purchase price. Little is known if and where the car was raced, but Nervine did enter it in the April 1, 1962 Pipeline 200, a USAC Formula Libre race at Bossier City's Hilltop course. Nervine never made it to the starting grid. The car arrived damaged after it fell off the trailer.
In another site that appeared on a TNF thread, Barry Hobkirk added that it was Nervine who got the Camoradi 250 F that was raced by Daigh.
Which version is correct? And could Casner have bought two 250 F Maserati's. In that case, what was the chassis number of the second one?
all research Willem Oosthoek

[Jerry Entin]

Here is Richard Macon in the 250F that was owned by Jack Bellows at the time, he is testing it at the Savannah Raceway.
photo lent site Richard Macon.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
In another site that appeared on a TNF thread, Barry Hobkirk added that it was Nervine who got the Camoradi 250 F that was raced by Daigh

see also p136 of the aforementioned David McKinney book
There was only ever one Camoradi 250F

[HDonaldCapps]

Not sure if this helps, but...

Jenkinson, 1966 – New 1957 car. Used by Fangio at Rouen, the Nürburgring, and Monza.

Jenkinson, 1967 – New May 1957. Team car. Driven by Juan Fangio. Sold to Giorgio Scarlatti 1958. ‘Lightweight’.

Jenkinson, 1975 – ‘Lightweight’ team car completed 1957 and driven by Juan Fangio. Won French GP Rouen and German GP Nürburgring in 1957. Sold to Giorgio Scarlatti 1958. Taken to America by Joakim Bonnier 1959. Now in private collection in USA.

Pritchard, 1976 – Lightweight works car that first appeared in the 1957 Argentine Grand Prix. It was driven by Moss in the Argentine and Fangio drove it to victory at Rouen and the Nürburgring and finished second with it at Pescara and Monza; Harry Schell drove it to third at Modena. In the 1958 Argentine races it was driven by Fangio (who won the Buenos Aires City Grand Prix) and it was then sold to Giorgio Scarlatti.

Nye, 1981 – Last of the1957 ‘Lightweight’ team cars immortalized by Fangio’s heroic victory in that year’s German GP. Later sold to Giorgio Scarlatti for 1958, and then to Jo Bonnier who took it to the USA in 1959 and sold it there. The car is owned by Deubel today, on display in the Cunningham museum in California.

Pritchard 1985 – 1957 works lightweight car driven by Moss in the Argentine and by Fangio in Europe (including his wins in the French and German Grands Prix). Raced by Giorgio Scarlatti in 1958.

Jenkinson, 1986 – The third of the 1957 factory team cars. This is the one that Fangio drove in the French GP at Rouen-les-Essarts, and the German GP at the Nürburgring, to establish himself as the ultimate master of the 250F Maserati, and to establish in some eyes the ultimate 250F. In 1958 it was bought from the factory by Giorgio Scarlatti who raced it a few times, and then sold it to Joachim Bonnier. He took it to the USA in 1959 and sold it to an American collector. Today it is on display in the Cunningham Museum in California.

Nye, 1989 – Last of the Tipo 2 Lightweight works cars, immortalized by Fangio’s heroic victory in the 1957 German GP, to Giorgio Scarlatti 1958, to Bonnier, to Deubel USA to German collection. Won 1957 French and German GPs, 1958 Buenos Aires City GP (Fangio).

Nye, 1993 – ‘Lightweight’ works car – Fangio, Argentine GP, January 1957. NOTES – Last of the Tipo 2 Lightweight works cars, immortalized by Fangio’s heroic victory in the 1957 German GP, sold to Girogio Scarlatti 1958, to Jo Bonnier, to Deubel USA – in 1980s to Hartmuth Ibing, Germany. Won 1957 Argentine, Buenos Aires City, French and German GPs, 1958 Buenos Aires City GP (all Fangio). The most historic of all this wonderful family of Grand Prix cars.

McKinney, 1995 – 1957 works lightweight car. Won Argentine, French and German GPs (Fangio). Also raced by Schell. To Scarlatti then Bonnier 1958, also driven by Herrmann. To Camoradi team in USA 1959 and raced in USAC libre events by Chuck Daigh, Paul O’Shea and Zora Arkus-Duntov. Later to Dave Deubel and in Cunningham Museum for many years before sale to Hartmut Ibing (present owner) in Germany 1988.

Pritchard, 2003 – T2 factory team car for 1957. driven by Fangio to wins in the French and German GPs. Sold in 1958 to Giorgio Scarlatti and then to Joakim Bonnier. Sold by Bonnier to American collector, then in Cunningham Museum in California until sold to a German collector.

McKinney, 2003 – A 1957 works lightweight car, Fangio’s regular mount for the season. Also raced by Schell. To Scarlatti and then Bonnier in 1958, and also driven by Herrmann. To Camoradi team in the USA in 1959 and raced in USAC libre events by Chuck Daigh, Paul O’Shea, and Zora Arkus-Duntov. Later to Dave Deuble and in the Cunningham Museum for many years before sale to Hartmut Ibing in Germany in 1988. Won 1957 Argentine, French, and Germans GPs and 1958 Buenos Aires GP (Fangio). 2002 location: Germany (Hartmut Ibing).

Logbook
Chassis Date Entrant Number Circuit Event Driver Result Comment
2529 1957.01.13 Officine Alfieri Maserati 2 Buenos Aires GP de la Republica Argentina Juan Fangio First
2529 1957.01.27 Officine Alfieri Maserati 2 Buenos Aires GP Ciudad de Buenos Aires Juan Fangio First Formula Libre, Heat No. 1 First and Fastest Lap, Heat No. 2 Third
2529 1957.05.19 Officine Alfieri Maserati 38 Monte Carlo GP de Monaco Harry Schell Retired
2529 1957.05.19 Officine Alfieri Maserati 32 Monte Carlo GP de Monaco Juan Fangio Practice
2529 1957.07.07 Officine Alfieri Maserati 2 Rouen-les-Essarts GP de l'Automobile Club de France Juan Fangio First
2529 1957.07.14 Officine Alfieri Maserati 14 Reims-Gueux GP de Reims Juan Fangio Practice
2529 1957.07.14 Officine Alfieri Maserati 14 Reims-Gueux GP de Reims Harry Schell Fourth
2529 1957.07.20 Officine Alfieri Maserati 2 Aintree R.A.C. British GP Juan Fangio Retired
2529 1957.07.20 Officine Alfieri Maserati 6 Aintree R.A.C. British GP Juan Fangio Practice
2529 1957.07.20 Officine Alfieri Maserati 6 Aintree R.A.C. British GP Harry Schell Practice
2529 1957.08.04 Officine Alfieri Maserati 1 Nurburgring GP von Deutschland Juan Fangio First Fastest Lap
2529 1957.08.18 Officine Alfieri Maserati 2 Pescara GP di Pescara Juan Fangio Second
2529 1957.09.08 Officine Alfieri Maserati 2 Monza GP d'Italia Juan Fangio Second
2529 1957.10.27 Officine Alfieri Maserati 6 Ain Diab GP de Maroc Juan Fangio Fourth Fastest Lap
2529 1958.01.19 Scuderia Sudamericana 6 Buenos Aires GP de la Republica Argentina Carlos Menditeguy Seventh
2529 1958.01.19 Scuderia Sudamericana 2 Buenos Aires GP de la Republica Argentina Juan Fangio Practice
2529 1958.02.02 Scuderia Sudamericana 4 Buenos Aires GP Cuidad de Buenos Aires Carlos Menditeguy Practice
2529 1958.02.02 Scuderia Sudamericana 2 Buenos Aires GP Cuidad de Buenos Aires Juan Fangio First Formula Libre, Heat No. 1 Second, Heat No. 2 First and Fastest Lap
2529 1958.04.13 Giorgio Scarlatti 28 Siracusa GP di Siracusa Giorgio Scarlatti Retired
2529 1958.05.03 Giorgio Scarlatti 10 Silverstone Daily Express International Trophy Giorgio Scarlatti Retired
2529 1958.05.18 Giorgio Scarlatti 46 Monte Carlo GP de Monaco Giorgio Scarlatti Retired
2529 1958.05.26 Giorgio Scarlatti 10 Zandvoort GP van Nederland Giorgio Scarlatti Retired
2529 1958.06.15 Giorgio Scarlatti 36 Spa-Francorchamps GP de Belgique Joakim Bonnier Ninth
2529 1958.07.06 Giorgio Scarlatti 38 Reims-Gueux GP de l'Automobile Club de France Joakim Bonnier Eighth
2529 1958.07.19 Joakim Bonnier 22 Silverstone R.A.C. British GP Joakim Bonnier Retired
2529 1958.08.03 Joakim Bonnier 16 Nurburgring GP von Deutschland Joakim Bonnier Retired
2529 1958.08.24 Joakim Bonnier 32 Porto GP Automovel de Portugal Joakim Bonnier Retired
2529 1958.09.07 Joakim Bonnier 24 Monza GP d'Italia Joakim Bonnier Practice
2529 1958.09.07 Joakim Bonnier 24 Monza GP d'Italia Hans Herrmann Retired
2529 1958.09.28 Joakim Bonnier 11 Watkins Glen Watkins Glen GP Joakim Bonnier First Fastest Lap, Formula Libre
2529 1959.07.25 Team Camoradi USA 2 Lime Rock New York Daily Mirror Race Chuck Daigh Second Formula Libre, Heat No. 1 Third, Heat No. 2 Third, Heat No. 3 Second
2529 1959.09.06 Team Camoradi USA 2 Meadowdale Formula Libre of Meadowdale Zora Arkus-Duntov & Paul O'Shea Retired Formula Libre, Heat No. 1 Thirteenth, Heat No. 2 Retired

[Doug Nye]

Database coming along nicely then, Colonel?

DCN

[Barrie Hobkirk]

With some encouraging help from a friend.

[Jerry Entin]

Don: This is what Richard Macon had to say about the time they had the 250 F that he is pictured driving.
" While the 250F was in our garage I took the body off and looked the car over. I took some pictures but I may not be able to find them. The water radiator had "Fangio" painted on it by someone. Possibly Casner to enhance the value. We would occassionally take it out on the farm to market roads of rural Alabama and drive it around. I wondered what the other drivers thought it was."

[Jerry Entin]

David and Don: The following is from Willem Oosthoek:" Many thanks for the feedback. I think what threw me off was that Dave Deuble crashed his Porsche RSK at Grayling in 1960 or 1961 and was paralyzed as a result, confined to a wheelchair. I always assumed that he would have bought the 250 F before the accident, probably late in 1959 which wouldn't match with the Nervine ownership timeline. I just got off the phone with Jack Wilkening, a corner worker and racer in the Midwest who mentioned that it is likely that Deuble bought the car after his accident, possibly 1962. Jack never saw Deuble in the car, but it was used around that time for demonstration runs between races, with Bud Seaverns at the wheel.
May we assume that the ownership chain, starting with Bonnier, was Jo Bonnier-Lucky Casner-Jack Bellows-Chuck Nervine/Macon Sr-Dave Deuble??"
all research and words- Willem Oosthoek.

[Jerry Entin]

A rare shot of Chassis 2529 being unloaded at the Miami docks in the summer of 1959. The Geneva-registered steamer Allobrogia did regular runs between Europe, Florida and New Zealand in those days.
Lucky Casner seems pretty pleased with his new purchase. Next to him, Cunningham team driver and Porsche privateer Eddie Crawford. Casner's son Perry and Crawford's son Bill were unable to identify the cockpit occupants.
photo Willem Oosthoek Collection, thanks to the generosity of Perry Casner.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Barrie Hobkirk
With some encouraging help from a friend.

Absolutely!!!! And what a great friend!!!

Barrie is the genius behind all this, all I did was shape it into something that allowed this feeble mind to grasp this otherwise bewildering story. Great credit to David as well, the other incredible person involved in all this.

I take no credit for any of this, I just present the information that resulted from the incredible hard work of others.

[soubriquet]

One of those chaps is wearing a dress. Is it Casner or Crawford?

[Barrie Hobkirk]

As usual Jerry, your posts are informative and super entertaining.
Hats off to your creative efforts in posting and the research of Willem Oosthoek.

Camoradi had, as David pointed out, only one 250F. There were other cars associated with being Camoradi entries and even more period snippets suggesting they might have or be obtaining more 250F’s.

David’s fabulous 250F book was part of a proposed series and therefore limited in size by the publisher so words were carefully chosen.
He states that “Later” to Dave Deuble. The Chuck Nervine connection was readily known but of small importance on the grand scheme of things and so skipped over by using the word “Later”.

Subsequent to David’s book, Willem Oosthoek has provided the Jack Bellows ownership information with Richard Macon test driving. Fascinating and supported by photos.

So we now have chassis 2529 rolling along like this. From Bonnier -to- Camoradi (Casner) -to- Bellows -to- Nervine -to- Deuble.

Does that satisfy your request for clarification Jerry? If not, let us know and we’ll delve a bit deeper.

One point Jerry, if you wouldn’t mind clarifying. You are the only source of information on this.
On post 14 of your Richard Macon thread you state “Richard Macon giving a test to a 250F (Savannah 1959)…….Jack Bellows owned the car……”
And yet above in post 2 of this thread you state “Here is Richard Macon in the 250F that was owned by Chuck Nervine at the time he is testing it here.”
I suspect your Macon thread Post 14 statement to be the correct one as Chuck had a roll bar installed while he was racing it and that does not show up in the Macon pictures.
Let us know.

How someone like Willem can dare take on all Maseratis and remain on the sane side of genius, is beyond me. I may not know everything about the 250F but one thing is for certain, after 20 years of research I have a lot more questions now than when I started.

Thanks for your input Jerry and Willem.
And thanks to you Don for all the accolades but it was clear before we talked that your passion for the 250F was pretty deep in the old veins.

Cheers,
Barrie

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Sorry, forgot a helpful tid-bit of information.

Dave Deuble aquisition of 2529 was quoted by him as "recently purchased.....from Chuck Nervine" in a piece of November 1962 correspondance.

Cheers,
Barrie

[David McKinney]

QUOTE orignally posted by HDonaldCapps
McKinney, 2003 – A 1957 works lightweight car, Fangio’s regular mount for the season. Also raced by Schell. To Scarlatti and then Bonnier in 1958, and also driven by Herrmann. To Camoradi team in the USA in 1959 and raced in USAC libre events by Chuck Daigh, Paul O’Shea, and Zora Arkus-Duntov. Later to Dave Deuble and in the Cunningham Museum for many years before sale to Hartmut Ibing in Germany in 1988. Won 1957 Argentine, French, and Germans GPs and 1958 Buenos Aires GP (Fangio). 2002 location: Germany (Hartmut Ibing).

Just covering my back here -
The listings in the back of the book were only a summary
In the text (p136) is:
Casner now turned his attentions to other projects, and the team did not race the 250F again. The car found a new home in Alabama with one Chuck Nervine, who apparently used it for later USAC events in 1960 and 1961, and sold it to an appreciative private collector a year or so later.
And, yes, he was spelt "Nevine" in the book

[Jerry Entin]

Barrie: I originally posted that the car was owned by Jack Bellows under the picture of Richard Macon driving it. I was told that I was wrong that Chuck Nervine owned it at the time of the test. Richard Macon then contacted me and told me it was owned by Jack Bellows when he was testing it and that it was at the Savannah Raceway. As you can see he was driving without a helmet. I then recorrected my writing. Sorry for that. It now says Jack Bellows. Here is another photo of Richard Macon in the car on that day. Willem Oosthoek has also told Richard if he would have kept that car his dad paid $2,000 for in conjunction with Chuck Nervine it could have been his retirement. This was the car driven by Fangio to win his 5th and final championship. He won the 1957 German Grand Prix in this car to nail down the championship. And thank you Barrie for your kind words. I am only putting up the photos for Richard Macon and the Forum members to enjoy. All this couldn't be possible without the help of Laurie, Willem Oosthoek's wife. She is the one who scanned the photos so that I could show them to the forum members and of course Richard Macon for loaning them to the site. And Willem Oosthoek for his research and knowledge.
photo lent site Richard Macon Collection.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Jack never saw Deuble in the car, but it was used around that time for demonstration runs between races, with Bud Seaverns at the wheel.

Thanks for that info! I remember seeing Seaverns run the car between races at Road America a number of times. However, back then, it was just an old race car and I simply did not pursue its history. To my regret, I do not even have a photo of it. That's is a pity, looking back. But now at least I know whose it was and what it was. As Johnny Carson used to say, "I did not know that!"

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by David McKinney
orignally posted by HDonaldCapps
McKinney, 2003 – A 1957 works lightweight car, Fangio’s regular mount for the season. Also raced by Schell. To Scarlatti and then Bonnier in 1958, and also driven by Herrmann. To Camoradi team in the USA in 1959 and raced in USAC libre events by Chuck Daigh, Paul O’Shea, and Zora Arkus-Duntov. Later to Dave Deuble and in the Cunningham Museum for many years before sale to Hartmut Ibing in Germany in 1988. Won 1957 Argentine, French, and Germans GPs and 1958 Buenos Aires GP (Fangio). 2002 location: Germany (Hartmut Ibing).

Just covering my back here -
The listings in the back of the book were only a summary
In the text (p136) is:
Casner now turned his attentions to other projects, and the team did not race the 250F again. The car found a new home in Alabama with one Chuck Nervine, who apparently used it for later USAC events in 1960 and 1961, and sold it to an appreciative private collector a year or so later.
And, yes, he was spelt "Nevine" in the book

One of the reasons I went with the approach in 250F/Redux was to show how no matter tangled their lives were while in the front lines, their lives afterward were often even messier. Plus, it was interesting to see how the identities of various cars evolved over the years as the scribes tackled them. Although not personally all that interested in their "post-war" lives, it is impossible to avoid it being discussed with a topic such as this one.

Personal Note: I have become rather partial to the 2512/2514/2515/2516 batch since they were the cars at the Parc Valentino way back when, because I actually got to sit in one of them -- and I have not a clue as to which one it was, the only picture I can remember of this momentous occasion being long since lost. However, I did see 2529 when it was campaigned during the 1958 season -- we missed almost the entire 1957 season by back in America that Summer.

[Jerry Entin]

Maestro Fangio aboard chassis 2529 during lap 19 of the 1957 German Grand Prix. According to the Dunlop Tower he is still in third, chasing Mike Hawthorn and Peter Collins in Ferrari's. Soon the Maserati 250 F would be in the lead, clinching another Championship for the Argentinean. The well-dressed gentleman at the bottom of the stairs is 18 year old Jim Sitz, on his first European tour. Jim Sitz is now the historian of Vintage Motorsports magazine.
Photo: Willem Oosthoek Collection-all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Stan Patterson]

Perry Mason..circa 1959/1960..re-run on Aussie TV 1991/92 (B&W)

Perry Mason and Paul Drake, (Raymond Burr and William Hopper), drive out to a motor racing circuit in their Thunderbird and we are greeted with the sight of a light coloured 250F being driven around a deserted circuit....I presume Riverside only because it is the only circuit I am aware of near Hollywood, but i wouldn't have a clue really.

The car appears to be white, could be red but I doubt it, does several laps and pulls up beside our heroes who then have a conversation next to it.

I remember thinking at the time...how many 250F's are in USA?........I know Bob Drake drove one in the 1960 US GP and it was a very light colour.

.....does this have any relevance here?


Stan Patterson
Old Aussie Grump

[Jerry Entin]

Stan: At the time of the Perry Mason T.V. show there were only two 250F Maserati's in the U.S. They were in the Southeast chassis 2529 which depending on the exact date, was owned by Casner-Bellows-Nervine and Macon Sr.-Dave Dueble as previously discussed.
The other one was chassis 2533, a Piccolo model formerly raced by Temple Buell's team and after that jointly owned by Joe Lubin of Los Angeles and Bruno Ferrari of Pennsylvania. Willem Oosthoek interviewed Joe Lubin 10 years ago and he confirmed that originally the car was kept in California. Willem would assume that the car you saw in the Perry Mason show was probably 2533. It had been upgraded by the factory with Birdcage disc brakes upfront and came painted white with blue stripes. Carroll Shelby and Roy Salvadori took it out for a few demonstration laps before the 1960 Times GP. Lubin ran the car once, for Bob Drake in the 1960 U.S. Grand Prix at Riverside, then it sat under a tarp for the next six months. He lent the car to Don Hulette, who campaigned it in various USAC Formula Libre events and who, according to Joe Lubin "Literally thrashed it." Lubin was not pleased.
There was a third 250 F, although with a very different bodywork, it was the Tec-Mec, built as a private effort by Valerio Colotti. It stood for Tecnica Meccanica a one man design studio set up by Valerio Colotti. The car was an evolution of the 250 F, using the last chassis built, 2535. Colotti put on Girling disc brakes all around and also adjustable shock absorbers. It was a very light chassis. Casner bought it in September 1959 to enter it in the 1959 U.S. GP for Jim Rathmann. Upon it's arrival in Sebring, Casner noticed that the Tec-Mec chassis flexed excessively. When he saw rusty water in it's Maserati combustion chamber, he sold it to local enthusiast Gordon Pennington on the spot. To the best of Willem Oosthoek's knowledge the Tec-Mec stayed in Florida and could not have been used as a prop car by Hollywood.
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Hi Jerry,

A couple of points, not in contradiction but to add or clarify.

The 2533 car was fitted with disc brakes, we believe by the Factory, upon its return from the 1959 New Zealand Grand Prix. The exact date during 1959 is not immediately known, however it was raced, with disc braked fitted, by Giorgio Scarlatti (racing for Scuderia Centro-Sud) in the 1960 Argentine Grand Prix. It was still painted red at this time.
It was a summer 1960 trip to Europe in which Lubin and partner Ferrari bought 2533.
So presumably the Perry Mason filming took place some time after this event taking into account shipping time to the US west coast. The first pictures we have of it in the US are October 1960 showing it , as you stated, to be white with blue stripes.

But at this point in time there was a third 250F (plus the 250F powered Tec-Mec) in the US.
Phil Cade bought 2524 from Joakim Bonnier and it arrived on the east coast in October 1959. Cade raced it a number of times until late 1962.
We have no information to suspect that this car ever ventured west of the Rockies while Cade was racing it and it was always painted red while in the US.

So by October 1960 we had 2529 in the Southeast, 2524 in the Northeast and 2533 in the Southwest. Plus the Tec-Mec stored in Florida.

Speaking of the Tec-Mec, our indications are that it was Pennington’s money that really got it finished (with Hans Tanner as the driving force) and it was Camoradi that organized the US racing of it, hence the Camoradi entry at Sebring.

The lineage of the Tec-Mec is the centre of much debate. Were the drawings ever penned at the Maserati Factory or were they only started after Colotti left? The number 2535 only appears to be something DSJ hinted at.
“Had it been given a Maserati chassis number it would have been 2535.” DSJ 1986 Motor Sport.
The Tec-Mec, when finished, received the number F.415 on its chassis plate.

Well, at least I’m awake now. 8am Saturday, Vancouver. Thanks for the great banter Jerry, and to Willem as well.

Cheers,
Barrie

[Jerry Entin]

Barrie: The source that is saying that Hans Tanner and Gordon Pennington took over the Tec-Mec project and that it was Pennington's money and Tanners connections sounds good. However, Gordon Pennington had never seen the Tec-Mec before it arrived in Florida, according to most sources.

[rudi]

The story of the Tec Mec and the Tanner-Pennington connection is well told in Doug Nye 's book "Motor Racing Mavericks".

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Hi Jerry,

The Orsini and Zagari Maserati book has a photo on page 602 that shows an as yet unpainted Tec-Mec and states.
"September 1959, Modena. Tec Mec
Mr. Pennington, the last purchaser of the car, is in the centre with eyeglasses and raincoat."

I know the Orsini and Zagari book is not infallible but there is a car in the background that has a license plate that is definitely not of US origin.

I also see a picture in the December 6, 1969 Motor magazine of what appears to be an uncomplete Tec-Mec and also states.
"Dan Gurney (left) visits the Tec Mec team of Gordon Pennington (in shirt) and Hans Tanner (right with pipe)."
Assuming any reasonable doubt, this one could be a picture taken in the US with a meerly disassembled Tec-Mec. But based on other Colotti shop Tec-Mec assembly pictures I have seen, I believe it to be Modena.

I also see a report in the September 1959 issue of Motor Racing written by "Coche".
We all realize now there were some liberties in his writings but is does say,
"The other Colotti project, the Type F/415 TecMec, is now almost complete, and will make its first appearance at Monza in the Italian Grand Prix. Working with Colotti as project engineer on the TecMec is the American, Gordon Pennington, who is also the owner of Scuderia Panamericana, which races two Gran Turismo Ferraris."

I think the Orsini and Zagari photo evidence is the most compelling.

Cheers,
Barrie

[David McKinney]

...and Coche was a Han Tanner pen-name ;)

[Jerry Entin]

Here is Bob Drake at Riverside in the simmering desert heat in Chassis 2533, driving the Joe Lubin entered Maserati 250 F. This was the 1960 U.S. GP. Bob Drake was credited with 13th place with 68 laps run. Jim Hall finished a fine 7th in this race.
The Maserati 250 F was the only grand prix car to enter the first race in 1954 and the last race in 1960 of the 2.5 Liter Formula.
photo lent site Willem Oosthoek-all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Jerry Entin]

Rudi: I do not doubt what is said in Doug Nye's book. I haven't had the pleasure of reading it. I am sure Doug researched the subject thoroughly. What I am going by is what was said by Fred Gamble, who with Casner and Lee Lilley was a member of the Camoradi team. This is what he said about the Tec-Mec when interviewed in 1996:
"We bought a new Tec-Mec from Hans Tanner in Modena. This car was supposed to be a competitive and improved version of the Maserati 250F. It was designed by Colotti with a lightweight spaceframe, the 250F engine and mechanicals. We took this car to Sebring for Jim Rathmann to drive in the U.S. Grand Prix in December of 1959. Lee Lilley and I towed the car through the paddock, trying to get it to start. The ground was rough and the chassis was so flexible that it felt like spaghetti. We could not get it started, so Lee pulled the plugs and found water and rust inside. Being a good used car salesman, Lucky Casner sold the car just before the race." Until this there was no mention of Gordon Pennington running this car.
The question becomes, why would Gordon Pennington buy the car, and enter it for D'Orey, if he was supposed to have been involved in it's financing and resulting ownership from the start? Perhaps the unsorted Tec-Mec was returned to Modena for further developement after Sebring. Could Pennington's involvement and funding have been post-Sebring 1959?
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Jerry Entin]

Barrie: This is from Willem Oosthoek: You are right about the third 250F. I completely forgot about Phil Cade. However, here is what Joe Lubin told me after I asked him about his personal use of Maserati's.
" I had three of them. A Q-porte, a 3500 GT Coupe and the most beautiful convertible version of the 3500 GT, with chrome wire wheels. I traded that convertible in at the Beverly Hills Cadillac dealer for two Cadillacs. At the time, when I was over visiting Alfieri during the construction of the Birdcage, there was a Formula one Grand Prix car laying there in the corner, all rebuilt by the factory. It belonged to somebody- the name Temple Buell comes to mind. It was all modified with disc brakes, just like the last Maserati Fangio drove. It was not the Fangio car but similar, and I bought it. That was late 1959."
It looks as though Lubin bought the car around September 1959. Bob Drake tested the by then finished Lubin Birdcage at Modena in September 1959, establishing a timeline. Joe Lubin wanted to enter the Birdcage in the October 1959 Times GP, which backfired when the orginzers refused to pay airfreight. When Lubin took actual delivery of 2533 is another matter, especially if Scarlatti raced the car between the moment of payment and the moment of arrival in California.
All research Willem Oosthoek.

[rudi]

If we accept that Cassner bought the Tec Mec from Hans Tanner:
- Gordon Pennington was involved in helping Tanner to finance the building of the car. But was not
the owner of the car.
- Jim Rathman was supposed to driver the Tec Mec for Cassner at Sebring. After his refusal, Cassner
turned to Fritz d'Orey and Pennington.

- Gordon Pennington became the official entrant for the Tec Mec at the 1959 US GP.
- Fritz d'Orey was diving Pennington's cars. At the Junior car race previous to the US GP d'Orey drove a
Stanguellini entered by Pennington.

In his his book on the 1959 US GP, Joel E Finn writes: "Pennington, an American who spent much of his time living in Modena, Italy, was the entrant of a Stanguellini driven by Frederico d'Orey in the Formula Junior race the day before and also the instigator of entering the Tec Mec fot the Grand Prix".

So to whow was the Tec Mec sold by Cassner: Pennington or d'Orey (as stated in Bolléée 's book "Lucky") ?
If the story of the later Daytona record attempts is true, probably Pennington...

[Bjorn Kjer]

What an interesting topic , and I thought I knew all through a couple of books..............

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by rudi
If we accept that Cassner bought the Tec Mec from Hans Tanner:
- Gordon Pennington was involved in helping Tanner to finance the building of the car. But was not
the owner of the car.
- Jim Rathman was supposed to driver the Tec Mec for Cassner at Sebring. After his refusal, Cassner
turned to Fritz d'Orey and Pennington.

- Gordon Pennington became the official entrant for the Tec Mec at the 1959 US GP.
- Fritz d'Orey was diving Pennington's cars. At the Junior car race previous to the US GP d'Orey drove a
Stanguellini entered by Pennington.

In his his book on the 1959 US GP, Joel E Finn writes: "Pennington, an American who spent much of his time living in Modena, Italy, was the entrant of a Stanguellini driven by Frederico d'Orey in the Formula Junior race the day before and also the instigator of entering the Tec Mec fot the Grand Prix".

So to whow was the Tec Mec sold by Cassner: Pennington or d'Orey (as stated in Bolléée 's book "Lucky") ?
If the story of the later Daytona record attempts is true, probably Pennington...

If you check the earlier posts you will see that was cannot accept that Casner bought the car from Hans Tanner, or from anyone else

[Sharman]

From the general tenor of the above it seems to be suggested that the Tec-Mec was not complete until late in 1959. I talked with Fritz in Sept of that year, the 6th to be exact and he had driven the car before that date and was very enthusiatic about and told me that it was far better than a 250F. Further comments?

[Stan Patterson]

This is an extremely complex thread...

Simply put, the point of my post was.. in a country where sports Ferraris, Maseratis, D types, Astons etc were in bulk supply, why would a rare 250F be used as a prop in a TV show?

Did it mean, in a country where there was no formula racing as such, by that time, the 250F was nothing more than a money making whore?..if u will pardon the expression.

Stan Patterson
Ancient Aussie
(we had 2.5 250F's)

[Jerry Entin]

Stan: As you have said. In the United States there was no racing avaliable for a Formula One type car. Other than the already stated USAC type Formula Libre racing. Bob Drake was also a movie stunt driver. I would suspect that through his connections the Maserati 250F was used on that Perry Mason episode. The above picture is Bob Drake in 1966 driving the 427 Cobra for the Elvis movie Spin Out. The guy on his knees next to Bob Drake is Cary Loftin, he was the driving co-ordinator. This movie was being directed for the racing scenes by Bruce Kessler at this time. The McLaren with the Camera on it was my car and it was the ex Graham Hill Riverside of 1965 car.

[rudi]

Originally posted by David McKinney


If you check the earlier posts you will see that was cannot accept that Casner bought the car from Hans Tanner, or from anyone else

Lucky Cassner was in Modena end of September 1959.
There is no evidence that Pennington owned the car. And there are several sources quoting that
Cassner resold the car at the US GP.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
What an interesting topic , and I thought I knew all through a couple of books..............

Although long since forgotten and rarely remembered, discussions such as this is one of the primary reasons this place was created. And a part of that is because many of books from the past often tell only a part of the story. There are no end of reasons for this -- libel perhaps being one of them -- with another simply being that was what was then known to be the case. Four decades ago, we communicated through snail mail or by chance or pre-arranged meetings at races, and occasionally by phone. Besides, recording history was not high on the agenda of very many people back then.

The Tec-Mec and Pennington issue is one that has long puzzled me, but I realized that I wasn't the person to sort out the details of that relationship. I could not quite figure out his involvement, although I realized that being an American expat in Modena that he had to have some sort of dealings with Tanner.

As for knowning "all through a couple of books," well, Bjørn, allow me to invite you to Brooklyn since there is a bridge I just happen to have for sale. Cheap....

I am always thankful for people such as Barrie, David, Willem, Jerry, Doug, and countless others who have labored long and hard in the vineyards to provide us with a better idea of happened "Back Then." It is always a joy to watch the mastros in action.

[Jerry Entin]

After looking at all the evidence supporting Gordon Pennington's involvement in the Tec-Mec project. And the first-hand comments by D'Orey and those 1959 photo captions, it would seem that Gordon Pennington was the money man behind the Hans Tanner effort.
As I have stated earlier I was going by what Fred Gamble had said on the matter. In those days he was Camoradi's jack- of-all- trades. Lee Lilley took care of the teams mechanical chores, while Lucky Casner did the financial deals. Gamble may not have known the full scope of Casner's Tec-Mec arrangement. Casner flush with money in September 1959, thanks to his recent Goodyear and other sponsorship funding. Lucky may have purchased the Tec-Mec, or Gamble may have assumed so. The car may have been rented for Casner's star driver Jim Rathmann for just one race. Whichever scenerio it was, after the Tec-Mec proved such a disaster in practice, Casner raised a stink and pulled out, getting his money back from either Pennington or D'Orey, who recognized his opportunity to participate in the U.S. GP. According to what he told Sharman he did like the car.
Taking the Tec-Mec to Daytona Speedway later on was probably an effort to cash in on Bill France's promise made late 1959 to pay $10,000 to the first car lapping the Speedway at 180 mph. many tried and failed, recieving little media coverage. In 1961 Art Malone won the prize, recording 181.561 in the Mad Dog Call 1V, an Indianapolis roadster.
The second Tec-Mec mentioned earlier was, according to period photos, just an old 250F in which a Corvette engine was stuffed in. There appears to be no record of that car ever being raced.
All this leaves me curious about Gordon Pennington and his professional backgraound. There is a reference on the internet of a Gordon Pennington having died in Sanibel, Florida on February 7, 2003. I wonder if it was the same person?
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Jerry Entin]

Don: This is what Hans Tanner's book"Maserati owner's handbook" says about the Tec-Mec.
Engine:6 cylinder in line
Total capacity 2493cc
power output: 270 bhp at 7,500 rpm
twin overhead camshafts, ignition by magnetos, three twin-choke Weber DCO carbs
chassis: multi tube frame
front suspension: coil springs and wishbones anti-roll bar
rear suspension: DeDion transverse leaf spring, parallel trailing arms
shock absorbers: Houdaille vane type all around
steering: worm and sector
brakes: shoe type, 2LS twin master cylinder
note: This car is a version that was lightened and modified with the factory's approval.
I would assume the disc brakes were put on after Hans Tanner saw the car intially.
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Jerry Entin]

Stan:
Keep in mind that when Joe Lubin ordered the former Buell 250F in September 1959, a recent trend had started in the USAC Road Racing Championship: the mixing of single seaters, such as Formula One cars and USAC midgets with sportscars, these were being called Formula Libre races. The July 25 race at Lime Rock and the September 6 race at Meadowdale proved very successful from a racing perspective, and highly popular with the public. That was Joe Lubin's frame of reference when he went to Modena.
With Chuck Daigh in Lucky Casner's 250F finishing 2nd at Lime Rock, Lubin was justified in assuming that a lighter, disc-braked Piccolo might do even better. Alas, Meadowdale was to be the last USAC race using the Formula Libre format, basically a choice made by the promoter. By the time Lubin recieved his 250F in 1960, all five USAC races that year were sportscars only. Demonstration runs and the U.S. Grand Prix at Riverside at the end of the year were the only venues left. As Lubin said in an interview with Willem Oosthoek: " I really did not have a lot of interest in the car then. There wasn't a class of sport I could use it in."
Of it's performance in the U.S. GP, Lubin said;" Bob Drake didn't like it too well. Strangely enough the car was not running well at all. it heated badly, it was timed wrong. it was not right. Roy Salvadori tried it and said: "Joe, there is something radically wrong with the engine. It is doing nothing."
About Bob Drake, Lubin was very frank: "Bob was a stunt man in the movies and about as colorful a guy as you could ever meet. If Bob had ever put his head strictly into racing, he would have been a world class driver. But he was into stunts and broads. His reputation was so bad, for womanizing and blowing money and getting drunk. He would show up at race day all hung over. Today you can't do that, but in those days you could."
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
The second Tec-Mec mentioned earlier was, according to period photos, just an old 250F in which a Corvette engine was stuffed in. There appears to be no record of that car ever being raced

Fair description of the car Jerry, but it did race - in New Zealand - for several years
I'll get back to the main argument a bit later

[gerard BARATHIEU]

very interesting threat gentlemen !!!

nice new phoros Jerry.

[David McKinney]

This is an extract from Maserati 250F (Crowood Press 2003)

The Tec-Mec
The Maserati factory, it has been said, knew little else but motor racing, and with the Piccolo up and running, Alfieri and his design team started work on the next step, an even smaller and lighter development of that car. Hindsight suggests a new car for 1959 should have been rear-engined, but it became irrelevant when Maserati let the last of the racing department staff go at the end of 1958.
Engineer Valerio Colotti promptly set himself up as a consultant in Modena under the name of Studio Tecnica Meccanica. An early commission was for a gearbox for Rob Walker’s Cooper-Climaxes, for that component had been the Achilles heel of all but the factory cars once more power became available from larger engines.
About the same time an approach to Colotti from journalist Hans Tanner and former works driver Giorgio Scarlatti resulted in the drawings for the 1959 car, which the engineer had brought with him from the factory, being taken out. Work on building the new car started.
The tubular steel spaceframe was rigged out with independent wishbone suspension all round, using coil springs at the front and a transverse leaf at the back. As a further concession to progress, it was equipped with disc brakes.
Progress was slow, much of the work being completed by a Maserati mechanic who had nowhere to build the car but his front room! Then, before the car was completed the project was taken over by a wealthy young American named Gordon R Pennington. He first bought out Scarlatti’s interest and then Colotti’s, forming a new company called Automobili Tec-Mec, which in turn gave its name to the new car.
The Tec-Mec was emphatically not a Maserati, as it never saw the inside of the factory, and its chassis number would not have been 2535, as is quoted by some authorities. However it is often - and rightly - described as being how the 1959 250F would have looked had there been one.
Eventually the car was completed, and entered for Scarlatti to drive in the Italian Grand Prix. Equipped with a very second-hand 250F engine and gearbox, the Tec-Mec was tested at Monza a few days before the race, by Bonnier, Scarlatti and others. However there were problems with the rear axle, and the car had to be scratched from the Grand Prix.
These were subsequently sorted out and Pennington took the car to Florida for the United States Grand Prix at the end of the year, where driver Fritz d’Orey was hampered by the engine’s poor preparation. He did manage to qualify, but lasted only six laps of the race before an oil-leak put him out.
From Sebring Pennington took the car to the Daytona Speedway, also in Florida, for an attempt at a 180mph lap-time, which had not yet been attained at the then new circuit. The car was driven by nineteeen-year-old Pedro Rodriguez but failed when a con-rod broke.

This suggests – and I have no good reason to revise my view – that Camoradi were no more than the official entrants of the car, though it is not impossible that they bought it from Pennington for the Sebring race, then sold it back to him.
I think if you were in the US in 1959, you would have presumed the car was Camoradi-owned; but if you had your ear to the ground in Europe at that time you would have been aware of Pennington’s involvement.
Maybe, as Jerry suggests, Fred Gamble was not completely aware of all the ins and outs of the deal

[Jerry Entin]

David Mckinney: This is from Willem Oosthoek: Looking again at the photo of Gordon Pennington on page 602 of the Orsini-Zagari book, he may have been wealthy but he does not look exactly young. At least, not in terms of a Lance Reventlow, who sponsored the Scarab project when he was 21. Pennington looks more in his mid 30's.
The Gordon Pennington I found on the internet got his BSCE in 1949. BSCE stand for Bachelor of Science, in either Chemical, Civil or Computer Engineering. If he is the right one. He was in Modena ten years later. Again, if he is the right one, he died on September 7, 2003 in Sanibel, Florida, which is near Fort Myers, not far from Sebring.
What a shame we did not get to him earlier.
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Rob Miller]

Which 250F chassis did the Tec-Mec engine and gearbox come out of, and was this the same car fitted with the Covette engine and raced in New Zealand?

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Hi Rob,

As the project was his idea from the start, Giorgio Scarlatti provided his engine from his own 250F, chassis 2523 to the Colotti designed F.415 Tec Mec.
Initial Tec Mec construction photos show Scarlatti's disassembled 250F in the background.

No, the Tec Mec Corvette was a 250F that Hans Tanner "acquired", had modified, and re-labeled a Tec Mec. It was sold to New Zealand and later temporarily fitted with a Ferrari sports car body.

Between its two New Zealand owners this car was raced at least 46 times in 26 events in New Zealand between January 1961 and March 1963.

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Barrie

[Rob Miller]

Thanks Barrie.

Those 250Fs have never had a quiet life.

[ZOOOM]

This might help...
It is a picture of Camoradi USA's 250 F Masarati at Meadowdale. It had just been crashed with the Ferrari of Loyal Katske.
Duntov was driving.


Here's another image:



I'm trying to find the panarama shot of both cars and drivers after the accident.

ZOOOM