130 replies to this topic

[olav glasius]

I have a firm believe that one of those cars was bought in the sixties
by a Dutch guy,Tonio Hildebrand, to race in Holland.
Can anybody confirm this
Olav Glasius

[giffo]

No but
there is an ex Normand Racing Lotus 23 listed on this site

www.warm.org.au
in the associates section

[metalshapes]

Tonio Hildebrand Raced one.

If I remember right a pic of the car was on the cover of his book " Het gaat niet om geld " ( Its not about money)

I'd like to find a copy of that book...


Edit.

A 23.

Dont know which 23...

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by metalshapes
Tonio Hildebrand Raced one.

If I remember right a pic of the car was on the cover of his book " Het gaat niet om geld " ( Its not about money)

I'd like to find a copy of that book...

These people have a copy:
http://home.tiscali....Dutch/index.htm

Oostzeedijk 350
3063 CD Rotterdam
tel +31(0)10-2800516
fax+31(0)10-2800517
autonet@tip.nl

01622 Motorsport Book Het gaat niet om Geld 1973 ISBN 9029519355
Hildebrand, Tonio VG, b&w, sb, 196p, Dutch € 22,80

[metalshapes]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


These people have a copy:
http://home.tiscali....Dutch/index.htm

Oostzeedijk 350
3063 CD Rotterdam
tel +31(0)10-2800516
fax+31(0)10-2800517
autonet@tip.nl

01622 Motorsport Book Het gaat niet om Geld 1973 ISBN 9029519355
Hildebrand, Tonio VG, b&w, sb, 196p, Dutch € 22,80

Cool!

Thank you for the Info...

[macoran]

AutoNet carbooks have moved since April of this year.

Wernhoutseweg 100
4884 AX Wernhout NB
t 076-5979999 f 076-5975938

see also their site www.autonetcarbooks.com

I think they only will use the Rotterdam address for special deliveries by appointment only.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hi Olav , not sure if it will help you , but have a look at "Normand Racing and Lotus 23s in 1960s " thread. There are some links to Mike Beckwith

[raceannouncer2003]

That thread is titled:

"Nomand Racing and Lotus 23s in 1960s"

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

[r.atlos]

I reckon at least one ex-Normand 23 has a known period history, namely the car of Mike Beckwith. AFAIK it went to Robin McArthur for 1963, passed on to Trevor Twaites for 1965 and has been converted by him into a Mercury GT at the end of the 1967 season. At some point during the 1968 season it passed on to Derrick Buller-Sinfield (for George Silverwood to drive). By 1971 it was owned by one Grahame McWilliam of Glasgow.

Parentage of the Tonio Hildebrand car is known but it was definately not ex-Normand.

[giffo]

This image came from a friend who is restoring this car. Out of interest can anyone shed a light on it? I believe it is Oulton Pk in 63 but who is driving?
[IMG]http://img238.images...oultoef7.th.jpg[/IMG]

[raceannouncer2003]

I think it's Jim Clark.

Vince H.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by giffo
This image came from a friend who is restoring this car. Out of interest can anyone shed a light on it? I believe it is Oulton Pk in 63 but who is driving?
[IMG]http://img238.images...oultoef7.th.jpg[/IMG]

Vince is right, it is Jim Clark, Oulton Park 6th April 1963, driving Tony Hegbourne's regular mount, the Normand Racing Division Lotus 23B, either chassis 23-S-48 or 23-S-49. This image appeared on the cover of the June 1963 Motor Racing magazine.

Clark is also reported as driving Beckwith's Normand car at Oulton Park on September 21st 1963, so again either 23-S-48 or 23-S-49, I am not sure who drove what car all year.

Either way, I don't think you will find it is your friend's car, as his is 23-S-98, I believe? This was driven by Mike Beckwith at Snetterton on September 28th 1963 (the only occasion when Normand fielded three cars, I believe) and I think this was its only outing in 1963 with Normand.

Michael

[giffo]

Wow...!
Well that's the story I'm told anyhow. I'll try to find out what the chassis number is now (If only for my own curiosity) I don't know too much about these cars but it is obviously a genuine chassis.
As Arnie says "I'll Be Back!"

[simon drabble]

Originally posted by giffo
Wow...!
Well that's the story I'm told anyhow. I'll try to find out what the chassis number is now (If only for my own curiosity) I don't know too much about these cars but it is obviously a genuine chassis.
As Arnie says "I'll Be Back!"

as the most faked of all sports racers I would assume nothing! 1980's surge in values led to many being "created" especially in Europe

[r.atlos]

There is enough picture and race result evidence that Tonio has raced his car throughout 1963. There are shots especially from a meeting at Zandvoort on 03/06/1963 and Martin Krejci's webpage records another participation at a "Coupe Benelux" (whereever that was being held) on 07/07/1963. When Tonio offered his car for sale in September 1963 he described it as "four races this season only".

Thus, it simply cannot be the car that Clark / Beckwith have driven in 1963 UK events.

Tonio's was a very early 1962 car which makes even chassis number 98 highly unlikely.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by r.atlos
There is enough picture and race result evidence that Tonio has raced his car throughout 1963. There are shots especially from a meeting at Zandvoort on 03/06/1963 and Martin Krejci's webpage records another participation at a "Coupe Benelux" (whereever that was being held) on 07/07/1963. When Tonio offered his car for sale in September 1963 he described it as "four races this season only".

Thus, it simply cannot be the car that Clark / Beckwith have driven in 1963 UK events.

Tonio's was a very early 1962 car which makes even chassis number 98 highly unlikely.

I guess if we knew what size engine it had in it, that would help too - any more info in the ad which ran in September 1963? But it seems unlikely therefore that Tonio's car could have been 23-S-48 or 23-S-49, as the histories of the two Normand cars overlap with Tonio's ownership, so they cannot be the same cars.

Michael

[r.atlos]

The only reference to its engine was a quote of "an honest 142 bhp"; clearly too much for a Kent pushrod engine in those days, would rather reckon a TC in a mild state of tune.

By the way - do we know where Tonio's car is nowadays ? Is his current owner drawing a blank on its history or what is exactly the background to this thread ?

[giffo]

I was told it's chassis 97 (edit - it is 98)(deleted - incorrect information)

Thanks.. I find all this history on this site very interesting. Thaks to those who are/were in the know. I'm way to young and have always lived far far away from the action that is most spoken of here.

[r.atlos]

Ok, if I puzzle that out correctly it's more about identifying an ex-Normand car that giffo or a friend of him has in Australia and possibly establishing its history ?

I also take that it is not about establishing the history of Tonio Hildebrand's car (unless it had been one of the ex-Normand cars) ? Correct ??

[giffo]

I just thought that I'd ask a question with regards to it. (Unfortunatly Not my car) I'm certainly not trying to hijack this thread. Since it's on the same subject & there apparently not many cars (Normand Racing) I figured that the ones who are in the know would be able to shed some light.
Giffo.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by giffo
I was told it's chassis 97 - Apparently Jim Clark drove the Normand Racing Lotus 23 chassis # 97 at the British long distance championships in 1963.
This information came from a conversation here - http://www.michaeloliveronline.com/
I'd like to go into more detail but unfortunatly I'm not at liberty to. Still check out my web link below.(hint)

Thanks.. I find all this history on this site very interesting. Thaks to those who are/were in the know. I'm way to young and have always lived far far away from the action that is most spoken of here.

Giffo:

Just a small correction, as you give the impression that I said that Jim Clark drove chassis 97 is British long distance races in 1963 and that this information is on my website...

The car owned by one of the members in your group is 23B-S-98 and, as far as I can tell from my limited research into the subject, was not raced by Jim Clark.

Rudi:

You mention that Tonio Hildebrand's car was an 'early 1962' car, which would make it a 23 but I suspect if it had a twin cam it was a 23B? Looking at the build records in Graham Capel's book, there are not many cars sold to Europe, but there were two sold to 'Wauters' in February and March of 1963, perhaps one of these went to Tonio? These were 23B-S-45 and 23B-S-46.

Michael

[giffo]

Thanks for clearing that up Michael & no negative intent was intended. It's just how the story was relayed to me & I felt compelled to ask. Must have been a case of chinese whispers since your info was (as told to me) used as the basis.

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


Rudi:

You mention that Tonio Hildebrand's car was an 'early 1962' car, which would make it a 23 but I suspect if it had a twin cam it was a 23B? Looking at the build records in Graham Capel's book, there are not many cars sold to Europe, but there were two sold to 'Wauters' in February and March of 1963, perhaps one of these went to Tonio? These were 23B-S-45 and 23B-S-46.

Michael

My understanding is that Tonio's car was already second hand when it came to him for the 1963 season; as mentioned previously, we have, unfortunately, no further details as to its engine except for this vague "142 bhp" quote.

I have trace of another 23 in the Netherlands, a car raced by Ron Deinum during 1965 and offered for sale in August 1966. Here we know that it had an 1100 Cosworth.

Exactly two years later, in August 1968, another 23 from the Netherlands was offered for sale. This one had a "1.6 Ford Cosworth" (which would translate to "Twin Cam", I reckon) but this one is a bit of an enigma as to a strange area code; no name given in the advert, obviously.

All this information has been a side effect of some totally different research I did; hence, I have not gone too deep into trying to assess and understand competition history of Dutch 23s. At a first glance, however, I would assume that we have at least two different cars, Tonio's and Ron's. As to how and where #45 and #46 fit is something I cannot comment on at this point in time.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by giffo
This image came from a friend who is restoring this car. Out of interest can anyone shed a light on it? I believe it is Oulton Pk in 63 but who is driving?
[IMG]http://img238.images...oultoef7.th.jpg[/IMG]

To add to the previous correct identification of this shot it was - unless I am very much mistaken - taken by the late Geoffrey Goddard. Normand ran a great little team with Mike Beckwith and mechanic Colin ???????? as I recall. Mike and Tony Hegbourne were great to watch in these immaculate Lotus 23s. To see Clark driving one as well was the icing on the cake.

DCN

[Bjorn Kjer]

Colin Knight and Gerald Southby

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
Colin Knight and Gerald Southby

Just out of interest, does anybody know if the Colin Knight who prepped the Normand cars was the same Colin Knight who worked at Team Lotus? I suspect they might have been different people as the Team Lotus guy was a fabricator...

Michael

[r.atlos]

It is by sheer co-incidence that an article on Mike Beckwith in a 1969 Autosport issue caught my eye over the weekend. And here's the explaination that they had, in fact, four 23s !

The first one was Beckwith's 1962 car with a 1089 cc Cosworth (pushrod) engine.

For 1963 the team acquired two new cars for Beckwith and Tony Hegbourne, equipped with T/C Ford engines. I reckon these must have been 23-S-48 and 23-S-49.

Last but not least they "had a third chassis made up" (also T/C-powered) which Jim Clark drove "whenever he was available". Thus, I would reckon this was 23-S-97 if I understand correctly what was established in our previous postings.

All this would imply that Beckwith's 1962 1089 cc pushrod car had been sold at the end of that season. And this must have been the car that Robin McArthur has raced during 1963; in fact, he did compete in the 1200 cc class. Even during Twaites' ownership it remained a 1089 cc car (although finally declared as a "23B" in his sales advert).

If anybody is interested in reading the full Beckwith article: It is the Autosport issue dated 28/03/1969.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by r.atlos
It is by sheer co-incidence that an article on Mike Beckwith in a 1969 Autosport issue caught my eye over the weekend. And here's the explaination that they had, in fact, four 23s !

The first one was Beckwith's 1962 car with a 1089 cc Cosworth (pushrod) engine.

For 1963 the team acquired two new cars for Beckwith and Tony Hegbourne, equipped with T/C Ford engines. I reckon these must have been 23-S-48 and 23-S-49.

Last but not least they "had a third chassis made up" (also T/C-powered) which Jim Clark drove "whenever he was available". Thus, I would reckon this was 23-S-97 if I understand correctly what was established in our previous postings.

All this would imply that Beckwith's 1962 1089 cc pushrod car had been sold at the end of that season. And this must have been the car that Robin McArthur has raced during 1963; in fact, he did compete in the 1200 cc class. Even during Twaites' ownership it remained a 1089 cc car (although finally declared as a "23B" in his sales advert).

If anybody is interested in reading the full Beckwith article: It is the Autosport issue dated 28/03/1969.

Rudi

Yes, you are correct, there were four Normand cars in total:

23-S-6 in 1962, sold at the end of the season to Robin McArthur
23B-S-48 1963 team car
23B-S-49 1963 team car
23B-S-98 1963 car bought towards end of season and built up for Snetterton 3 hours (only one race).

There are several references in period to Clark using Hegbourne and Beckwith's regular cars when he drove and the suggestion is that Beckwith had the new car for the Autosport 3 hours at Snetterton, although I would need to do some more digging to confirm this.

Michael

[raceannouncer2003]

David McKinney kindly posted this link on another thread:

http://www.sanzalang...galeria/album97

On page five, there are some photos of Lotus 23's (Lotus 23s?) in the 1963 and 1964 races. Would any of them be the Hildebrand car? I've only looked at the first five pages briefly. Maybe there are more Lotus 23 photos in the album.

Vince H.

[racingreen]

To add to the previous correct identification of this shot it was - unless I am very much mistaken - taken by the late Geoffrey Goddard. Normand ran a great little team with Mike Beckwith and mechanic Colin ???????? as I recall. Mike and Tony Hegbourne were great to watch in these immaculate Lotus 23s. To see Clark driving one as well was the icing on the cake.

DCN

Doug,

Colin.... ??? Knight ???

David.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Does any of you have the logo/name NORMAND from a note pad or the like , please ?

[Bjorn Kjer]

His name was Colin Knight.

[bradbury west]

Colin Knight and Gerald Southby

John Blunsden has it as Colin Knight and Alan Jarrett.

Does anyone have any information on Robin McArthur and McArthur Weston Racing ?. ISTR McArthur Weston Steels on the side of trucks in later years.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 19 February 2010 - 22:22.

[sfortynine]

Gentlemen- We own S-49 and have been vintage racing it here in the USA for quite some time....a great car ! Just took 5th OA and 1st in class at the Sonoma Historic Race weekend.

Does anyone know at the end of the 63 season (Hegbourne car) who or what happened to the car ? It's the last bit of info. we need in it's history. We think it went into Canada at one point then to Chicago area. Thanks to all...love this site ! Steve Schmidt Newport Beach California.

[Michael Oliver]

Gentlemen- We own S-49 and have been vintage racing it here in the USA for quite some time....a great car ! Just took 5th OA and 1st in class at the Sonoma Historic Race weekend.

Does anyone know at the end of the 63 season (Hegbourne car) who or what happened to the car ? It's the last bit of info. we need in it's history. We think it went into Canada at one point then to Chicago area. Thanks to all...love this site ! Steve Schmidt Newport Beach California.

Hi Steve

Welcome to the board. I am research Lotus 23s at present and have not heard much about the fate of the three Normand cars after the 1963 season. I have a photo of one of them in the hands of Australian Alan Bond, racing in Singapore in 1964, still in Normand livery. You mention that you have 23-S-49 and refer to it as the Hegbourne car. Do you have some kind of confirmation that this was the case, as I've never been sure who drove which car on a regular basis, eg whether Beckwith drove 23-S-48 or 49 regularly?

How long have you had the car? Also, you mention Canada and Chicago area, do you have any approximate dates for this as I have some cars in both those regions unaccounted for?

Thanks

Michael

[sfortynine]

Hi Steve

Welcome to the board. I am research Lotus 23s at present and have not heard much about the fate of the three Normand cars after the 1963 season. I have a photo of one of them in the hands of Australian Alan Bond, racing in Singapore in 1964, still in Normand livery. You mention that you have 23-S-49 and refer to it as the Hegbourne car. Do you have some kind of confirmation that this was the case, as I've never been sure who drove which car on a regular basis, eg whether Beckwith drove 23-S-48 or 49 regularly?

How long have you had the car? Also, you mention Canada and Chicago area, do you have any approximate dates for this as I have some cars in both those regions unaccounted for?

Thanks

Michael

Hi Michael- Thanks for the welcome..... we purchased the car 12/5/97. History of the Lotus 23 by`Graham Capel 1962-1966 page 64 talks about the first outing of the Normand team at Oulton Park March 16th, 1963. Tony Hegbourne's 23-B, 23-S-49 won and marked the first outright race win for the Lotus 23B. This book has many comments on who drove the cars and at what races to include how Normand was finally declared the Lotus Factory Team at the end of the season by Chapman due to their excellent showing during 1963.

Sometime in the late 60's or early 70's, Jon Reske who owned Sports Car Engineering Ltd. Moorhead, MN. purchased 23-S-49. Jon was the distributor for Webster Gears in the United States, later selling his distributorship to Craig Taylor of Taylor Race Engineering. During Jon's ownership he raced quite a bit in Canada with CASC and won a number of Championships using car #49. This info. was from Jon's wife as he has passed away. She stated the car might of been from Canada or the Chicago area. We have the ownership trail from here but lack the info. from the end of the 63 season to when Jon owned and raced the car.
Thanks, Steve

[Michael Oliver]

Hi Michael- Thanks for the welcome..... we purchased the car 12/5/97. History of the Lotus 23 by`Graham Capel 1962-1966 page 64 talks about the first outing of the Normand team at Oulton Park March 16th, 1963. Tony Hegbourne's 23-B, 23-S-49 won and marked the first outright race win for the Lotus 23B. This book has many comments on who drove the cars and at what races to include how Normand was finally declared the Lotus Factory Team at the end of the season by Chapman due to their excellent showing during 1963.

Sometime in the late 60's or early 70's, Jon Reske who owned Sports Car Engineering Ltd. Moorhead, MN. purchased 23-S-49. Jon was the distributor for Webster Gears in the United States, later selling his distributorship to Craig Taylor of Taylor Race Engineering. During Jon's ownership he raced quite a bit in Canada with CASC and won a number of Championships using car #49. This info. was from Jon's wife as he has passed away. She stated the car might of been from Canada or the Chicago area. We have the ownership trail from here but lack the info. from the end of the 63 season to when Jon owned and raced the car.
Thanks, Steve

Hi Steve

Thanks for your explanation.

Without in any way wishing to cast aspersions on a fellow author, I don't think Graham actually provides any hard and fast evidence as to why he says Hegbourne was driving 23-S-49.

If this was recorded in period, I haven't seen it noted - in his book or anywhere else - although of course I may very well have missed this. So I am not doubting that you have 23-S-49 in your possession, just whether it is possible to say with certainty that the driver in period was Mike Beckwith or Tony Hegbourne.

If you have or someone else has this information, I will be the first to hold up my hands and admit that I was wrong but I've had a great many car owners, mechanics, dealers over the years tell me that some aspect of history connected to their car was 'a fact' and when I have dug a little deeper it turns out to be not necessarily so.

In the meantime, I will keep my eyes and ears open for any info which might help you ID the history of your car prior to Jon Reske's ownership.

Michael

[barrykm]

I think it's Jim Clark.

Vince H.

Agree

[Doug Nye]

Three together...1963 Snetterton 3-Hours.



One on his ownsome... Notice the enormous roll-over bar on each car.

Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 15 June 2010 - 18:56.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Grrrreat pictures Doug!

[Michael Oliver]

Three together...1963 Snetterton 3-Hours.



One on his ownsome... Notice the enormous roll-over bar on each car.

Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Luvverly pics Doug!

Now check this photo out:

Possible ex-Normand Lotus 23

This is apparently one Alan Bond (THE Alan Bond?) in an ex-Normand Racing Lotus 23B, taken on 29/03/1964.

Now, I accept that bodywork could have been moved around between the different cars, so it is a bit tenuous, but if you look at where the (brake cooling?) slots in the front of the nose are positioned relative to the 'Normand stripes' the inner edges of the slots are flush with the inner edges of the stripe on the Clark car and also the Bond car but on the Hegbourne and Beckwith cars the slots 'overlap' the stripes on both sides. So, based on this somewhat unreliable method, my conclusion is that the car shown with Bond at the wheel is the Clark car but clearly I'd need some better info than that to be sure.

Anyone know how to contact Alan Bond? If is it the same chap (prominent businessman convicted of fraud) I see he is back in Perth now...after a spell in the clink and then in London to rehabilitate himself away from the scrutiny of the Australian media.

Michael

[jpgp79]

Michael,

is this photo ("possible ex-Normand racing car") taken from the 1964 Malaysian Grand-Prix?

Link to the race report:
http://newspapers.nl...30.2.102.5.aspx

Edited by jpgp79, 23 June 2010 - 16:00.

[Red Socks]

Michael,

is this photo ("possible ex-Normand racing car") taken from the 1964 Malaysian Grand-Prix?

Link to the race report:
http://newspapers.nl...30.2.102.5.aspx

The historians are not helped by Wyllie being referred to as the class winner, saloons and tourers in a Lotus 23 in para 2 and later on his class win being reported in a Lotus Cortina.

[Michael Oliver]

Michael,

is this photo ("possible ex-Normand racing car") taken from the 1964 Malaysian Grand-Prix?

Link to the race report:
http://newspapers.nl...30.2.102.5.aspx

Yes, it is from the 1964 Malaysia GP meeting (March 29th). Thanks for the newspaper article - very interesting although, as Red Socks points out, the reference to Wyllie in a Lotus 23 in the saloons and tourers race is a tad misleading! Fortunately, they describe it later on as a Lotus-Cortina, which is somewhat more likely...

Michael

[bradbury west]

Bump, on the off chance that someone might be looking for the first time.

Does anyone have any information on Robin McArthur and McArthur Weston Racing ?.
Roger Lund

RL

[Michael Oliver]

Bump, on the off chance that someone might be looking for the first time.



RL

Roger,

I can't help on biographical details, but Robin McArthur bought Mike Beckwith's Lotus 23, chassis 23-S-6 at the end of the 1962 season. The car had an 1100cc pushrod Ford engine. He raced this car during the 1963 and 1964 seasons and possibly into 1965. R. Atlos gives further ownership trail earlier in this thread, post #9. At some point in 1965, McArthur bought James Manfield's black 23B-S-71, which also had an 1100cc engine and which he raced in 1965. Beyond that, I can't tell you any more, I'm afraid...

Michael

Edited by Michael Oliver, 24 June 2010 - 15:00.

[bradbury west]

Michael, many thanks
RL

[sfortynine]

Michael- Thanks for the continued info. ......Maybe Graham has a few words on where his info. came from when doing his research ! For now we will go with his thoughts for presentation purposes at events. Steve

[olav glasius]

I was a good friend of Tonio Hildebrand.
He told me the story that he bought and collected the 23
after a race with Jim Clark driving.
His car had a Twin Cam .He sold the car to a guy
named Cees Fokke Bosch. I know him well and about
4 years ago he gave me two wheels,wobblys of this car
which he kept in his garage.There were two 23 s in Holland
the other one belonged to Ron Deinum.
I own the racing Lotus Seven S 1 of Tonio which he had before
the 23. I also own a 23 B that came from the USA.
I just wanted to know what happened to Tonio s 23 as he
couldnt remember the chassisnumber.
It first ran in Holland,Zandvoort in the Normand livery.
So if I study former posts right, it must have been ch.nr.48 or 49

Olav Glasius

[giffo]

Anyone know how to contact Alan Bond? If is it the same chap (prominent businessman convicted of fraud) I see he is back in Perth now...after a spell in the clink and then in London to rehabilitate himself away from the scrutiny of the Australian media.

Michael

Different Alan Bond
Contact Eli Solomon, he'l point you in the right direction on that one.