Jump to content


Photo

Fiat S76


  • Please log in to reply
243 replies to this topic

#101 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 20 March 2008 - 18:26

There are some great pictures of the rebuild in the new "The Automobile" magazine.

Whatever the car is, and wherever it came from - WOW! 'Can't wait to see it run :) !

Advertisement

#102 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:14

I had a brief conversation with Neville Roberts today, and he untangled a little of this. He insists that it was the Lion Peugeot that crashed down a cutting between Armadale and the coast on its rapid run, and has photos (somewhere!)of the remains down that slope. The chassis of this Lion Peugeot was a long thing easily mistaken for a Fiat. After correspondence with Griffith Borgeson and Serge Pozzoli, Neville sold this chassis to France. Neville says that the car's engine was definitely not an ordinary engine but a serious race motor of the correct bore and stroke(measured when a gudgeon scored the bore!), having six valves per cylinder, of one of the Coupe de L'Auto/voiturette cars(he was not certain about the year, but guessed on the phone at 1906.--- I would guess later). The engine remains in Australia.

#103 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:06

Which 'Armadale' and which coast, John?

I think we discussed this earlier, wasn't it 'Armidale' in NSW?

#104 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:16

Which 'Armadale' and which coast, John?

I think we discussed this earlier, wasn't it 'Armidale' in NSW?

I can tell you about two more interesting big early FIAT items out here. About 1964 I saw remains of another chain-drive truck on Doug Ferguson's farm at Dartmour, in far western Victoria near the South Australian border and Mt Gambier. There was no engine, but he chain drive transaxle was still there; and if the bornze crankcase truck engine at Hughes Wrecking had still been ther itcould have become a restoreable entity. However, doug decided to clean up the place, and I understand that a lot of it went to scrap, including a pioneer type single cylinder Inter Mogul tractor. The other thing which I never thought to show Ray when he was here (though he may well have run out of memory capacity during the visit). It is a very big FIAT car front axle, which I saved from a derelict dairy farmer's calf trailer about 3 miles from where I live. I now suspect it came from a Tipo 5 car, almost certainlythe same car as the 9 litre side valve engine I used to have. Now the interesting thing I have found is the forging identification on it, "Parke". This almost certainly shows that it was made by Parke Forge; which shows that the car must have been made at the FIAT factory at Poughkeepsie, New York. The crankshaft of one of my cars, I think the Roamer Duesenberg, came from the same maker. I have kept this against the day when someone desperately needs one for a car.
Ivan Saxton

#105 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:38

Keep it coming, John and Ivan...

Brilliant stuff! So much we don't know about cars in Australia early in the 20th century.

#106 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 18 December 2009 - 20:30

Keep it coming, John and Ivan...

Brilliant stuff! So much we don't know about cars in Australia early in the 20th century.

If someone can post detail photos of Mr Pittaway's beast, showing particularly the chassis frame he has used, and someone else can access images of a Tipo 5 without bodywork, for instance from FIAT archive; then we mightbe able to nail down the probabilities in this.
Now I definitely never saw or knew of Stuart Middlehurst having a chain-drive CAR chassis, and though it could be remotely possible that it was stored most of the time in one of his safe spots around central Warragul such as the backyard of his mother's house, which was on a normal width block that was very long between Victoria Street and the very minor Trinca Lane at the back. He kept the Tipo 510 FIAT there which he only got for the Rudge Whitworth 62 mm wire wheels which he figured might have been adaptable at a pinch to the Alfonso Hispano Suiza. He wasn't initially very interested in the FIAT itself at the time. There was also a Summit there cut into a ute. As Mrs Middlehurst became less active vandals smashed the instruments of the Summit, and the yard became unsuitable storeage for anything breakable.
(The Summit was a strange car of the early 1920's built in Australia of American proprietry parts. The springing was by three inter-connected seml-elliptic springs each side. The engine was a 4 clyinder Lycoming engine as used by Auburn and Gardiner, and the car probably had about the performance of a Dodge 4. We paid twelve pounds ten shillings for it at a farm in the hills, in running order but I never saw it run.) Now Stuart had the interest to gather odd and interesting remains because he didn't want to see them destroyed, even though there might be no prospect or plan of resurecting an authentic entity. Now if you bring up a Google Earth map of this district, and imagine a straight line between Longwarry where the 9 litre sidevalve engine of General Grimwade's car powered a sawmill, past or through Drouin and Warragul to the site of Shady Creek rural primary School, that line runs through Balharrie's farm where I got that axle, about a mile from Shady Creek School. There were the two towns and a lot of 80 to 100 acre dairy farms between those two endpoints. If Stuart did in fact have a chassis frame of a chain drive FIAT car, it is overwhelming probability that it, the Tipo 5 engine that went to Paul Freehill in Ft Wayne Indiana, and the front axle I still have were all from the same car, wich was the largest FIAT passenger car but not a racing car.
Now Mr Evans from San Diego has said in this thread that he has two of the other racing FIATs from that era, and that chassis details match with Duncan Pittaway's re-creation. It makes sense that those racing cars and the chain drive Tipo 5 and Tipo 6 passenger cars could easily have had the same chassis frame, apart from differences in wheelbase. I suppose it would make sense to enquire whether the Grimwade family might have photos of the General's car.
I need to explain a post from my computer a couple of years ago with a photo of several Rudge Whitworth items. I did not write this. Ray Bell visited here, and took a number of photos and saw more things that anyone could completely remember in the time. I was explaining differences in early Rudge wheels, and that Stuart definitely would not have gathered that chassis to get wheels for the Alfonso Hispano Suiza. The Hispano used short spline 62 mm hubs. Photos of the S76 cars show wheels as large or larger than the green Napier wheel in Ray's photo. The big wheel centre is Rudge 100 from a cuff-valve Peugeot, and the third item is what was used on such cars as the Hispano and T-head Austins, and this one is for my 1911 Lancia Delta. Those long spline Rudge 62 centres and hubs wore badly over the years on 3 litre Bentleys: No engineer would put the same size on an S76, FIAT, even if suffering a brain-fade. (The story about Stuart wanting wire wheels from the FIAT for the Alfonso has been crossed up with the Lion Peugeot remains; and I could not say for sure that there were any wheels with that. And he gathered the Lion Peugeot remains when he had been running the Alfonso on correct rebuilt wheels for at least 15 years. Also the front axle I have had wood wheels., but only the hubs remain.) Ray seemed to want to teach me in a few minutes how to manipulate and post photos, but I will have to achieve that in my own way in due course, because Microsoft program logic does not make sense to me even though Mr Gates and I are both Asperger's . Ray wrote those words in that post that is ascribed to me, but it is not my post and not what I would say. Ray was trying to be helpful. I hope that explains the incongruous post.
Ivan Saxton

#107 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,668 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 19 December 2009 - 08:26

(The Summit was a strange car of the early 1920's built in Australia of American proprietry parts. The springing was by three inter-connected seml-elliptic springs each side.
Ivan Saxton

Would that be the "Acme Patent Suspension"? I had a good look at a car with a version of that suspension (I think it may have been a Duesenberg?) about 7years ago. It was a rather good idea that worked along the lines of the Moulton BMC Hydrolastic suspension without the rubber and fluid!

Edited by Catalina Park, 19 December 2009 - 08:27.


#108 eldougo

eldougo
  • Member

  • 6,186 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 19 December 2009 - 10:29

Being a FIAT "Fix It Again Tony "fan for years found this today good pic of said car

http://www.teamdan.c...t/fiat_s76.html

#109 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:18

Would that be the "Acme Patent Suspension"? I had a good look at a car with a version of that suspension (I think it may have been a Duesenberg?) about 7years ago. It was a rather good idea that worked along the lines of the Moulton BMC Hydrolastic suspension without the rubber and fluid!

I have never heard of Acme patent. The centre of the middle spring each side was fixed, and the ends faced up. These were shackled to the inner end of the other two springs, which wee pivotted in the middle with outer ends connected to front and rear axles. There certainlywas minimal contribution of the spring to unsprung weight, and a lot of vertical movement of the axle. It was possibly devised for outback motoring, thinking of the place between Winton and Longreach known as "Lift ím foot". This was written on 44 gallon drums beside the road; and if you didn't lift ím foot you could have trouble as the road disappeared into a watercourse gutter. A disadvantage of the design may have been lack of transverse control linkage, particularly when pivots were worn; and I am sure there were no dampers.

There bwere a couple of errors in my previous posts . when I looked again at the photo of two wheels and a centre that Ray posted from my computer, the Rudge 80 wheel belongs to one of the Mercers, and it looks like the Napier wheel is equivalent to that size.
And the maker of the American Tipo 5 front axle was Park Forge without an E on the end of Park.

#110 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,668 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:30

I have never heard of Acme patent. The centre of the middle spring each side was fixed, and the ends faced up. These were shackled to the inner end of the other two springs, which wee pivotted in the middle with outer ends connected to front and rear axles. There certainlywas minimal contribution of the spring to unsprung weight, and a lot of vertical movement of the axle. It was possibly devised for outback motoring, thinking of the place between Winton and Longreach known as "Lift ím foot". This was written on 44 gallon drums beside the road; and if you didn't lift ím foot you could have trouble as the road disappeared into a watercourse gutter. A disadvantage of the design may have been lack of transverse control linkage, particularly when pivots were worn; and I am sure there were no dampers.

I have seen two versions of this suspension, one was as you described, the other had the middle spring pivoting in the centre and all the pitch was controlled by a seventh spring which was mounted transversely on top of the front axle to the chassis.


#111 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 19 December 2009 - 14:39

I think that whatever the truth, the finished machine is going to be fantastic and I can't wait to see it finished :) !

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#112 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 19 December 2009 - 20:16

That may well be true...

But this thread is about preserving the truth.

#113 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 19 December 2009 - 20:17

I think that whatever the truth, the finished machine is going to be fantastic and I can't wait to see it finished :) !

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

How does the drive get from the engine to the gearbox, Steve? The transmission seems to be back-to-front, with a crossmember in the way.

#114 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:50

I haven't seen the car "in the metal" Ivan, but looking at the pictures I'd say that power is transmitted under and into the back of the transfer box which then passes the drive forward and to the chains.

The Fiat S76s were very impressive looking cars, but I'd hate to have been hit by a crosswind in one while travelling at 140mph+ !

And if you think the Fiat S76 transmission is strange, how about this aero-engined special currently being built in the UK: -

Posted Image

Posted Image

The transmission arrangement is meant to have been inspired by an in-period factory design (Fiat or Isotta, I cannot remember which) which was never built. Question is, will it work?!

Edited by Steve L, 20 December 2009 - 10:05.


#115 fuzzi

fuzzi
  • Member

  • 470 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:58

I haven't seen the car "in the metal" Ivan, but looking at the pictures I'd say that power is transmitted under and into the back of the transfer box which then passes the drive forward and to the chains.

The Fiat S76s were very impressive looking cars, but I'd hate to have been hit by a crosswind in one while travelling at 140mph+ !


Well how about driving it up from London to Saltburn for the speed trials?

In 1911 the car was to make an attempt on the world's fastest and the driver, Pietro Bordino, spurned the idea of putting the car on a trailer and drove it from Brooklands to Saltburn on the public highway – a 300 hp racing car with stub exhausts belching several feet of flame at passers-by. The high bonnet was so tall that Bordino had to look around it to see forwards and the intrepid passenger reported that on the journey the speedometer sometimes read over 120 mph. The attempt on the record itself was spoiled by soft sand and car became stuck in the sand and was caught by the rising tide. It was eventually towed out and won the unlimited class with the fastest speed (116.5mph) in the competition.

#116 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 2,136 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:10

I haven't seen the car "in the metal" Ivan, but looking at the pictures I'd say that power is transmitted under and into the back of the transfer box which then passes the drive forward and to the chains.

I was going to suggest the same... in jest! Can't believe they really did that in 1910, could it be a cock-up in restoration?

#117 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:58

I'd see it as a possibility because of the height of the engine...

By running such a low crankshaft line, the drive could quite readily go under the transmission and then be geared or chain-driven up to that rear input shaft.

#118 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 2,136 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:33

I suppose it's possible, the pictures aren't very clear. In the second one, it looks as though the engine output shaft runs at the height of the frame cross member, yet in the third it looks like it could pass below the gearbox. Couldn't find anything about Fiat transmissions in literature, not in the short time anyway.

#119 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,564 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 20 December 2009 - 20:08

(The Summit was a strange car of the early 1920's built in Australia of American proprietry parts. The springing was by three inter-connected seml-elliptic springs each side. Ivan Saxton


Does anyone have photos or drawings of this suspension system, please?
Roger Lund


Advertisement

#120 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 20 December 2009 - 23:22

Does anyone have photos or drawings of this suspension system, please?
Roger Lund

I should still have a couple of photos I took, but you might get your feet tangled in your beard waiting for me to find them. Long ago I told Stuart that I thought he was more interested in the Summit than I, so he should consider it his to do as he pleased. I am sure he traded it to someone who had another up near Port Macquarie NSW, in return for construction of a body frame on an Austin 20 that Stuart really liked. If you send me an email address in a pm I can put you in touch with John Cook in Sydney who has Australian Six and Lincoln Pioneer Six, and probably knows where all the Australian built cars of the twenties are. This might be the quickest way to get you what you want to see. (Incidentally, there was a court case here in 1923 which dtermined that the Linclon car company in Syndey had prior right to the brand name dating back probably to before Henry and Wilfred Leland left Cadillac to build Liberty engines, and certainly before they designed and produced Lincoln cars. That may be why few V8 Lincolns came here in the 1920's, although the virtual impossibility of converting them to right hand drive would certianly not have enhanced their popular appeal).

#121 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 21 December 2009 - 00:28

I suppose it's possible, the pictures aren't very clear. In the second one, it looks as though the engine output shaft runs at the height of the frame cross member, yet in the third it looks like it could pass below the gearbox. Couldn't find anything about Fiat transmissions in literature, not in the short time anyway.

We may be better informed if Bill Evans could enlighten us with images of the chaindrive transmissions of ONO and his other contemporary FIAT racing car. This is bringing the interest that may eventually reveal what is happening and where all the contemporary components came from. Quo warranto. Show us the authority. There is such a wealth of photos and drawings in Angelo Tito Anselmi's book on a company whose last prototype cars were made over 50 years ago, that it is hard to believe that there is nothing to help in Centro Storico.
That transmission is most unusual for a chain drive car in that it is back to frontof normal practice. Either way it makes perfect sense to have the drive form the engine onto what is normaly the layshaft. I have a B22 Lancia Aurelia and I am well familiar with the Lancia transaxle, which has no direct gear. What is the transmission of a Tipo 5 Fiat like by comparisson? Does the transmission belong to that exact chassis and did it come with it? Or has it been necessary to design and build the transmission to make everything fit in proper place including the occupants over the back axle. It is unlikely that anyone will be able to grease a curator's palm to get an airship engine to copy the effort with workmanship beyond reproach. It is admirable to reconstruct an authentic replica around a correct engine, but creating provenance would spoil it. As Ray said, we want the truth. What was that chassis originally? Most Italian chassis of that period were very similar in style and form. You could build one like that from the Lancia Kappa chassis that I gathered from a vineyard up the King River valley near Wangaratta, which went to England recently so someone could re-construct a Theta. (I have enough cars to restore for the next 40 years, and for my son for a long time after that). It worries me that the names of friends may have been used to embellish a story, even though they would have admired and enjoyed the final object as much as we shall.

#122 MoMorris

MoMorris
  • New Member

  • 14 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 27 December 2009 - 16:02

[quote name='Ivan Saxton' date='Dec 21 2009, 00:28' post='4047783']
We may be better informed if Bill Evans could enlighten us with images of the chaindrive transmissions of ONO and his other contemporary FIAT racing car......

I found this old photocopy of a drawing of the planned S76 - source unknown but page 17 of a book - and it clearly shows the back to front drive layout.

URL=http://img17.imageshack.us/i/fiattipo12.jpg/]Posted Image[/URL]



URL=http://img17.imageshack.us/i/fiattipo12.jpg/]Posted Image[/URL]

Edited by MoMorris, 27 December 2009 - 16:05.


#123 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 27 December 2009 - 20:17

Originally posted by MoMorris


We may be better informed if Bill Evans could enlighten us with images of the chaindrive transmissions of ONO and his other contemporary FIAT racing car......


I found this old photocopy of a drawing of the planned S76 - source unknown but page 17 of a book - and it clearly shows the back to front drive layout.

Posted Image


Maybe that helps...

#124 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 December 2009 - 22:44

I'm not sure I entirely get you guys....why on earth don't you just call up Duncan Pittaway and chat the S76 through with him directly and actually talk to the man who is restoring the car?...not merely rely on the "down the pub" speculation and guesswork. I find it strange that only Bill Evans (a genuine expert on and owner of early FIAT racecars) has taken the time to do just that. Why don't you? Or would that make for a less interesting thread? Worried you might "discover the truth"?

And yes, I have seen the car "in the metal."
Ant



#125 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 27 December 2009 - 22:57

Seems you haven't read the entire thread, epoch

Duncan Pittaway posted on it early on, but hasn't been back to answer various questions raised

#126 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 December 2009 - 07:42

Seems you haven't read the entire thread, epoch

Duncan Pittaway posted on it early on, but hasn't been back to answer various questions raised


Oh I've read the entire thread, thanks very much David.

#127 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 28 December 2009 - 09:17

Originally posted by epoch911
I'm not sure I entirely get you guys....why on earth don't you just call up Duncan Pittaway and chat the S76 through with him directly and actually talk to the man who is restoring the car?...not merely rely on the "down the pub" speculation and guesswork. I find it strange that only Bill Evans (a genuine expert on and owner of early FIAT racecars) has taken the time to do just that. Why don't you? Or would that make for a less interesting thread? Worried you might "discover the truth"?


I think I can help out here...

First you need to understand the integrity and knowledge of some of the people asking the questions. You, hopefully, saw Ivan Saxton's qualifications spelled out in post after post... he knew virtually all the people involved in the mystery chassis deal. Yet it fitted none of the parameters he knew. Nor did the detail of Duncan Pittaway's story fit in with the points raised by Ivan.

John Medley, the originator of the thread, is an acknowledged historian when it comes to racing and racing cars in Australia. A stickler for factual history and an enthusiast who has spent untold hours poring through library files of newspapers looking for obscure events and information. He started the thread questioning several things, all of which were logically questioned on this forum. Ivan provided some of the answers.

These are not 'down the pub' speculators. These are people with a genuine interest in the factuality of history as it's presented in the form of 'rediscoved' cars or 'restored' cars.

If you think you can come along and wave a magic wand and see their integrity overturned, you have no idea what the Nostalgia Forum is all about.

And, seeing as you have seen the car and probably have spoken to or know Duncan Pittaway, perhaps you could encourage him to come back and answer the questions raised.

Edited by Ray Bell, 28 December 2009 - 09:22.


#128 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 December 2009 - 09:34

Perhaps Ivan should get in touch with Duncan directly. I'm sure he would find it fascinating.


#129 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 28 December 2009 - 09:43

Perhaps Duncan should get in touch with Ivan...

I absolutely guarantee he will find that fascinating.

#130 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 28 December 2009 - 13:37

Perhaps Duncan should get in touch with Ivan...

I absolutely guarantee he will find that fascinating.

This is all interesting. What we are trying to find out is where this chassis frame came from, and through whose hands it has passed in the last 30-40 years, what its history is, and exactly what it was originally. There is really no problem if someone alters a stray chassis frame of a big early FIAT, Isotta Fraschini, Itala, Bianchi, or whatever to make an authentic reconstruction of S76 or anything else notable. It is important to record what has been done. For instance, about 20 years ago I had to replicate some missing items of hardware for a National Trust property in Melbourne. I stamped "reprod. 1988" on everything I made so there could be no doubt if someone happened to study the mansion decades in the future. (I had to make two door locks, to work with a key I was not given; which was a fiddle. The carpenter who did a lot of the miscellaneous work there took them to the locksmith to get extra keys made, because Labassa continued to have residents. Locksmith opened one up and said "But this is new!" Carpenter said "There were two missing so we had to get new ones made". I don't know why the locksmith didn't read what was stamped on it.) It is no discredit to record what has to be done in a job like this. It is no discredit to make a transmission, and it is not rocket science to make a CNC machine to do the foundry pattern making.
There might be a problem if something was lifted from somewhere without permission or purchase. There was one very large and old FIAT chassis that was on a property near Hay on the Riverina plain, where trees are about as common as hills. Phil Buggee told me about this, and it was on the property of his wife's parents. Phil is mostly into modern FIATS, and as an amateur was narrowly beaten the year before last in the Targa Tasmania by a pro. Phil was driving his turbo diesel FIAT Punto. We used to see Phil often at the FIAT Car Club in Melbourne; and I tried to talk him into gathering it in so we could work out what it was and try to dig up more stuff in case it was possible to rebuild it. (I didn't want to chase it for myself: I have enough cars to restore in the next 40 years.) It vanished quite a while ago, and noone knows how. If that is the one that is being built into this car, it might be understandable that people would want to concoct a story, even though the owners did not value or want it. It is too late tonight, but I will ring Phil and Richard Uncles from the FIAT Club to see if they know anything relevant.
If you want to find out who I am and what I know, and how I know what I know, you are a bit late to ask Stuart Middlehurst or Bob Chamberlain, or Bud Catlett of Harrah's, Ray Wolff, Morris Burrows, or Ralph Buckley. Ray Bell has been here and had lunch with us, but he might not be able to give a full and accurate list of my cars, let alone the workshop equipment or what I can do with it, (such as making special pistons or carburettors for my cars and other people when needed.) You might ask Dean Butler because he has been here too. Over the years I have not had many visits from other Mercer owners; and while we were having lunch he seemed surprised that I knew his car had been owned by Gene Zimmerman. Dean lives mostly in UK and races his cars. Robin Morris form Bath has been here too. He has a Marandez. Through Robin's visit here (I took him out in the 1918 Mercer at 10pm for a brisk 10 mile ride) , his brother who restores (WO) Bentleys gave Bill Orde three contacts for Bentley parts that enabled his 3 Litre, plus another 3 and a 4 1/2 to be restored. Jim Foyle of Piltown undertook the verification and shipping of one lot of parts near Dublin for Bill, just because of a minor favour I was pleased to do for Jim some years earlier. It is too late to ask Jim for a reference too. For a set of 510 FIAT timing gears without cost, Jim sent me a Waterford decanter and six whisky glasses which still have the stickers. When Jim came here to use one of Bill Orde's Italas in an International Rally, he made a similar gift to Bill, and was devastated to discover that neither of us ever drink whisky or anything similar and less concentrated. But he was amazed to conclude that we were still good blokes in his opinion, and he would have liked to make us honourary Irishmen.
The only time I can remember being in a pub to discuss a matter relating to old cars was in 1968 when I spent $45 and two and a half hours drinking lemon squash in the Branxholme pub near Hamilton, that sum being the asking price for the correct Keyless rimwind clock for the Roamer Duesenberg. I don't drink ethanol because I don't like it; and as my training is as an agricultural sientist, I have done enough physiology and biochemistry to understand that ethanol is a toxin. People who do like it are perhaps fortunate that our liver is capable of a reaction to remove the hydroxyl radical from ethanol, so the residue can be metabolised as a normal carbohydrate. The knowledge I have relating to old cars comes from personal experience, and from historical and reliable technical references. I have an Asperger's memory for things that interest me, and a very broad spectrum of obsessional interests. (You might care to read a research paper that my eldest son had published in December 2008 Monthly Notes of the Royal Astronomical Society, and let me know if you are able to pick up any mathematical errors that might have evaded his referees.)
Finally, I am perverse enough to maintain that if anyone has a valid contribution to make in a forum, then there is no excuse to identify themself by anything other than their name. It is notable, for instance, that in a current parallel discussion about sportsmanship, a large proportion of authoritative contributions come with keyboard camouflage.

#131 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 December 2009 - 16:24

Hi Ivan. Thanks for the reply but I fear you have misunderstood me

What we are trying to find out is where this chassis frame came from, and through whose hands it has passed in the last 30-40 years, what its history is, and exactly what it was originally.

Exactly. And all I am asking is why don't you, or someone else who really wants to know, actually get in touch with Duncan and speak to him one to one? It just seems the most logical and obvious thing to do. As I said, I just don't understand but obviously I don't "get" TNF

If you want to find out who I am and what I know, and how I know what I know...

I wasn't aware that I had asked or called into question your personal knowledge or credentials. Seems others have jumped to that conclusion...

Finally, I am perverse enough to maintain that if anyone has a valid contribution to make in a forum, then there is no excuse to identify themself by anything other than their name

Well that's your opinion I guess. We'll have to agree to disagree on the impact on validity that someone's web forum signature has.

It's all getting a bit defensive. I posted a fairly simple question. I notice no one has answered it








#132 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 28 December 2009 - 20:40

Let's look at your question...

As asked by epoch911
I'm not sure I entirely get you guys....why on earth don't you just call up Duncan Pittaway and chat the S76 through with him directly and actually talk to the man who is restoring the car?...not merely rely on the "down the pub" speculation and guesswork. I find it strange that only Bill Evans (a genuine expert on and owner of early FIAT racecars) has taken the time to do just that. Why don't you? Or would that make for a less interesting thread? Worried you might "discover the truth"?


The question itself is simple enough, but attempts to denigrate were built right into the framework of the asking...

To my way of thinking, too, the very fact that Duncan Pittaway throws in names of deceased people then neglects to name the person from whom he acquired the chassis (presumably still alive) leaves a very large question mark over the whole affair.

Then, when Ivan came along, we saw strong evidence that the names bandied about could never have been connected with a genuine S76 chassis, enlarging that question mark further.

TNF has become a vehicle for identifying cars, exposing error and falsehood and for the gathering of people interested in getting to the truth about old racing and racing car matters. It was most logical that the question should have been asked here. Had I been in John's position, I certainly would have preferred to ask it here than try contacting Duncan Pittaway.

After all, even at that early stage, John had a fair idea that there wasn't much of a possibility that the story was true.

Edited by Ray Bell, 28 December 2009 - 20:41.


#133 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 28 December 2009 - 20:44

. I posted a fairly simple question. I notice no one has answered it


The matter can only be resolved in a public forum of record. We need to see photographs of the chassis frame, axles, and transmission before work started; and we need to see the trail of ownership, because the claims of past ownership can not be substantiated. This is not possible on the telephone. If Duncan Pittaway wants to talk about it he could come to Phillip Island Historic racing, where he could meet John Medley, and possibly Ray Bell might be there. Quo warranto. Show the authority. He must have the authentication. That is all that is needed.

#134 Fred.R

Fred.R
  • Member

  • 53 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 28 December 2009 - 22:06

Hi all, cars this old are not really my thing but I am enjoying this thread, an observation, what is the rotation of the S76 engine, by placing the engine and gearbox as shown in the photos would reverse the rotation if the drive was by chains or gears with an idler, if the gentleman in question got the chassis from OZ were did the gearbox come from? And for that matter the engine and as I understand only the chassis is in dispute. All of these parts would have great storeys attached (as most old cars do), with this being such a significant car understandably there is a fair bit of interest. Or is a revised story going to come out, that it came from a non English speaking country with poor internet access so the waters are muddied a bit more, In a shrinking world it’s difficult to tell pork pies and not get caught out. At the end of the day is it a wonderful replica with original parts or is it the Beast

Cheers
Fred

#135 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 28 December 2009 - 23:25

Hi all, cars this old are not really my thing but I am enjoying this thread, an observation, what is the rotation of the S76 engine, by placing the engine and gearbox as shown in the photos would reverse the rotation if the drive was by chains or gears with an idler, if the gentleman in question got the chassis from OZ were did the gearbox come from? And for that matter the engine and as I understand only the chassis is in dispute. All of these parts would have great storeys attached (as most old cars do), with this being such a significant car understandably there is a fair bit of interest. Or is a revised story going to come out, that it came from a non English speaking country with poor internet access so the waters are muddied a bit more, In a shrinking world it’s difficult to tell pork pies and not get caught out. At the end of the day is it a wonderful replica with original parts or is it the Beast

Cheers
Fred

Engine rotation is not a problem, and you just need the crownwheel on the right side of the pinion so the car will go forwards. I understand that this was incorrect in an early prototype Voisin. There were a few cars built with the opposite crankshaft rotation, including the 4 cylinder Napiers which had the flywheel in front. Sometime in 1912 they changed the engine rotation and mounted the crownwheel on the other side of the pinion.

#136 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:01

The matter can only be resolved in a public forum of record. We need to see photographs of the chassis frame, axles, and transmission before work started; and we need to see the trail of ownership, because the claims of past ownership can not be substantiated. This is not possible on the telephone. If Duncan Pittaway wants to talk about it he could come to Phillip Island Historic racing, where he could meet John Medley, and possibly Ray Bell might be there. Quo warranto. Show the authority. He must have the authentication. That is all that is needed.


Why on earth can it only be resolved in a public forum of record? And I'd hardly call an internet chat forum a basis for factual certainty...

Quite why everyone refuses to talk to someone who is, like it or not, absolutely central to getting to the bottom of this story is beyond me but then I'm no expert. And to suggest that Duncan Pittaway should HAVE to do anything to satisfy your "needs" is, I must say rather egotistical. By my reckoning, I'm not sure he has to do anything. Is it not you who really wants the information? I can imagine Duncan will be quite happy carrying on with the project and never feel the need to talk to you at all, let alone visit.

I do recall from his post that he said he would publish the whole story when the car was finished. Looks like you'll have to wait until then.





#137 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 936 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:21

Questions concerning the S76 drawing:

- The car on the drawing is named "tipo 12ter"; does anybody know which cars were named "tipo 12" and "tipo 12bis"?
("tipo 14" was the 14-litre/S74 Grand Prix car of 1911/-12, and "tipo 14b" the 4,5-litre/4,9-litre/S57 of 1914/-16)

- Can anybody make out the wheelbase in the S76 drawing?

#138 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:48

Originally posted by epoch911
Why on earth can it only be resolved in a public forum of record? And I'd hardly call an internet chat forum a basis for factual certainty.....


This is something different... look around here and see what happens...

.....I do recall from his post that he said he would publish the whole story when the car was finished. Looks like you'll have to wait until then.


Then it will be too late...

There are two classic examples here of 'legends' or 'myths' that have been exposed to us via this forum, though that's not the exclusive avenue of those exposés. *edit* Additionally, the issue of the 1939 European Championship has been revealed and explored.

One is the story of the pre-war race at Tripoli. A myth grew out of that which was published and re-published until it became folklore. It was exposed in Motor Sport in the early sixties IIRC, but then that same magazine published it again as fact just a few years ago.

The readers of this forum, however, know it's not true.

Another is the 'scratching' to remove the paint from the Mercedes-Benz entries at the Eifelrennen in 1934. This exposé is a tribute to the efforts of the members here. Did you know that story was a load of 'old cobblers'?

*edit* With regard to the European Championship of 1939, I don't think there's anywhere else that the pointscore for that title has been discussed, certainly not in so much detail, and while the matter is still open to question it has certainly been revealed through this forum that the world has been subjected to untruths on this matter.

This forum, or at least the majority of the members of this forum, pride themselves on being seekers of truth. And it's quite clear that some details of the history of the chassis in question are shrouded in untruth.

But what happens if the story gets published in some acknowleged magazine? By someone unaware of the revelations that have taken place here? There will be many who believe the published story irrespective of what facts are revealed elsewhere.

You see what I mean? It will be too late.

.....Quite why everyone refuses to talk to someone who is, like it or not, absolutely central to getting to the bottom of this story is beyond me but then I'm no expert. And to suggest that Duncan Pittaway should HAVE to do anything to satisfy your "needs" is, I must say rather egotistical. By my reckoning, I'm not sure he has to do anything. Is it not you who really wants the information? I can imagine Duncan will be quite happy carrying on with the project and never feel the need to talk to you at all, let alone visit.....


I do agree on this point... someone should talk to Duncan Pittaway...

They should point out to him that there are good reasons for many here to believe his story isn't true. He asserts that he has found a real S76 chassis, one of just two made, the only one (he tells us) that still exists.

He first told the world that it came to him from Bob Chamberlain's collection. We put the question to John Cummins, who was very closely connected with Bob Chamberlain for many years and he had no knowledge of Bob having such a chassis in his possession.

Then he came on here and said, "No, it wasn't Bob Chamberlain, it was Stuart Middlehurst who had it..."

Ivan found that information and made his first ever post on this forum to point out that it was 99.99% unlikely that Stuart ever had such a thing and then gave names, times, cars, events and everything else that was necessary to tie the thing in knots. And that other 0.01% could probably be proven impossible too.

There isn't a soul here who would deny that the construction of this car is a great event. But if we're to be told it's the real chassis, we want real facts that can back it up.

Edited by Ray Bell, 29 December 2009 - 22:57.


#139 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 29 December 2009 - 18:34

Why on earth can it only be resolved in a public forum of record?

Because accounts of telephone conversations can be disputed by both parties. That would not move this discussion forward. Also, none of the photographic evidence that is claimed to exist can be shared over the telephone.

See also the final paragraph of this post.

And I'd hardly call an internet chat forum a basis for factual certainty...

Internet discussion forums are a medium. Their credibility or otherwise is a product of what people write, and the standards of proof, reasoning and personal accountability expected of its members.

Certain members here have conducted an argument based on questions, reasoning, references and first-hand personal experiences.

Phrases such as "down the pub" and the like, and the suggestion that all internet discussion is inherently untrustworthy are an ad hominem attack, and are unlikely to convince an interested reader.

Quite why everyone refuses to talk to someone who is, like it or not, absolutely central to getting to the bottom of this story is beyond me

No-one is refusing to talk to Duncan Pittaway. On the contrary, we want him to answer the questions and criticisms posed in this thread. It is best if this is done on this forum, rather than by telephone, for the reasons already stated.

And to suggest that Duncan Pittaway should HAVE to do anything to satisfy your "needs" is, I must say rather egotistical. By my reckoning, I'm not sure he has to do anything. Is it not you who really wants the information?

Duncan Pittaway doesn't "have to" do anything - unless he wants his claims of the provenence of the car taken seriously. He has publicly stated his account of the provenence of the car on this forum. We can only assume that he did so because he wanted people to believe and accept what he had written. When the term "FIAT S76" is entered into google, this forum topic appears on the first page. If he still wants people to believe his version of events, it is in his interests to answer the questions and criticisms here.

Getting to the truth of the history of this car is a matter of importance far beyond that of one man's private possession. An S76 reconstructed from an original engine and chassis would be one of the most remarkable automotive historical artifacts of the 20th century. It is a matter of great public interest that all questions surrounding its authenticity be resolved. I'm sure it would also be of interest to anyone who might want to buy the car, if it is ever put up for sale one day.


Advertisement

#140 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,016 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 29 December 2009 - 19:02

In years gone past, this car could have been submitted for the Dating process of the Veteran Car Club of GB, when all the evidence would have been considered after independent and well-qualified research. Sadly that can't be done now, but other organisations were setting up Dating schemes based on our (VCC) methods, rules and control manual so it may be possible that one of them can do it.
When a "lost" car appeared, it was often quite interesting to read the claims being made for its (or its components') provenance.

The VCC would only give a Dating Certificate to a car it was satisfied was and had been one car, although Certificates of Eligibility (for VCC competitions) were issued to cars that had too many components that were not from the single source.

Although VCC Dating was primarily a domestic VCC matter, its reputation was such that it carried great weight in the old car world and is widely used to show authenticity when cars are offered for sale.


#141 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,564 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 December 2009 - 22:14

Although VCC Dating was primarily a domestic VCC matter, its reputation was such that it carried great weight in the old car world and is widely used to show authenticity when cars are offered for sale.


The recent issue of the provenance of an Auto Union up for auction a little while ago springs to mind, as does the sale of Lotus 25 R4, or perhaps the chassis plate and various parts attached thereto, plus the case of a car purported to be DP155, and many of us will recall the brouhaha which arose over the claims made for a Lotus 16, IIRC, with alleged race history as a 2.5ltr and sold as such, but proven otherwise solely as a 1.5ltr in period. I doubt that there were many original Hornsey or Edmonton bits on that car, but it had a proveable continuous history, to the vendor's chagrin.
It is to the great credit of Cedric Selzer that he never made untrue claims for his car, nor embellished the history.
Roger Lund

#142 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:31

I think it might be good to review something here...

First of all, let's see what Duncan Pittaway told us when he posted in this thread:

Originally posted by Duncan Pittaway
.....It was NOT Bob Chamberlain who found the chassis. Stuart Middlehurst, an inveterate early car enthusiast acquired the bent engineless rolling chassis in the 1950's of what he was told had been a Stutz engined Fiat racing special which 30 years before had crashed at Armadale in the early 20's practicing for a race to the coast and was thought to be a modified Fiat S74 racing car. Stuart apparently held no particular store by this and simply robbed the chassis of it's Rudge wheels and hubs (standard fitment to an S76) to restore one of his many beloved Hispano Suiza's.

The bent, rusty and by now very incomplete remains stayed with Stuart Middlehurst until the early 1980's when it was acquired by a Fiat enthusiast sure of it's S76 identity and determined to undertake the mammoth task finding the missing bits to restore the car. After 15 years the enthusiasm had waned as the realisation of the size of the task had dawned and after a great deal of research but very little work had been done, I acquired what was still just a rusty bent rolling chassis.....albeit without wheels and hubs!


Now, let's see how that compares with what Tim Murray told us... or more to the point, what Duncan Pittaway told the Bristol Pegasus club, as reported by Tim:

Duncan first picked up the scent of something interesting while tracking down other Edwardian bits in Australia. Following a tip-off an S76 chassis was unearthed in the collection of Bob Chamberlain (who built the amazing Chamberlain Special in the ‘20s and later reconstructed the famous Napier racing car ‘Samson’). At some stage in the car’s life the original engine had been replaced with a Stutz unit and a different body fitted, and Chamberlain had sold the rear axle to another Edwardian Fiat owner.


That meeting was told nothing of Stuart Middlehurst, nor of the chassis being recognised and purchased by a Fiat enthusiast. In fact, there's the additional information about the rear axle being sold off without the chassis to indicate that the chassis was still with Chamberlain.

#143 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,196 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:58

Ray, I'd just like to say that in my report of Duncan's talk to our club I did my best to set down accurately what he had told us. However, I wrote from memory some days after the talk, and may well have got some details wrong. At the time I never dreamed that my report in the magazine of a fairly minor motor club would contribute to this controversy in the way that it seems to have done.

#144 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 December 2009 - 17:46

Ray, I'd just like to say that in my report of Duncan's talk to our club I did my best to set down accurately what he had told us. However, I wrote from memory some days after the talk, and may well have got some details wrong. At the time I never dreamed that my report in the magazine of a fairly minor motor club would contribute to this controversy in the way that it seems to have done.


Thanks Ray for proving exactly what I meant about the "down the pub" expert. You have turned general comments from Tim's original posting about a talk by Duncan to a local car club into "FACT". You then use this "FACT" as proof of deceit on Duncan's part and as an opportunity to cry foul to the wider forum community. "Look, look I told you so." And to think you accused me of attempting to denigrate in the manner of my questions...

Of course, you are the expert so presumably you know Tim (and his S76 expertise) well enough to quote it in your posting as solid evidence on which to base your point. Personally I bet you've never met Tim.

Sorry Ray but you are manipulating other people's words to support your own argument. I did wonder from a recent posting of yours how you were claiming that Duncan had contradicted himself about the source of the chassis when Duncan has only posted once on the forum. And now I know.

Thank goodness Tim has the objectivity to stand up and say that his account was written some time after the event and may indeed not be accurate. Hats off to you Tim.

I had intended not to post again as there are more important things in life but you guys make it such fun, I might stick around a bit longer.


#145 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,017 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 December 2009 - 17:51

epoch911,

What exactly are you trying to say?

Various people here have understandably expressed doubts on the provenance of the S76 "re-creation" (I think that is the most appropriate term) quoting different stories they have heard regarding its origins.

None of which in any way belittles Duncan Pittaway's skills in putting it together.

But if this exercise is to prove anything beyond the fact that early 21st Century Australia (or England) can replicate the products of early 20th Century Italy some basic questions need to be answered concerning the origins of this assemblage of pieces of metal:

1. Where did the chassis come from?
2. Is it a Fiat chassis?
3. Is it aS76 chassis?
4. Where did the engine come from?
5. Is it a Fiat engine?
6. Is it a S76 engine?
7. Where did the gearbox come from?
8. Is it a Fiat gearbox?
9. Is it a S76 gearbox
10. In summary, how much is original and how much is a re-creation?

Edited by D-Type, 30 December 2009 - 20:49.


#146 epoch911

epoch911
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 December 2009 - 19:31

Hi D-Type
My original question was quite simple really...I wondered why no-one was actually talking to Duncan about this project. It would appear that Duncan is not particularly interested in forums (he's posted only once in 2 years) but his silence on TNF seems to be being interpreted as deception or proof of guilt. Not everyone has TNF bookmarked in their browsers and many people just don't engage in forum activity. What happens if he never logs on to the site? Will the skepticism and suggestions of untruth become the established facts, merely because Duncan has not responded on a web forum?

What's slightly ironic is that Duncan is well known in the UK and beyond as an engaging, passionate and highly communicative enthusiast within the VSCC and the Bugatti Owner's Club - whether you agree with his views or not he'll talk to you at great length about old cars.

But on reflection, I realise that I am coming across as having an agenda to force a dialogue with Duncan and that's not the case. I'm not his keeper and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me either way.

So I won't post again but I'll watch with interest.






#147 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 30 December 2009 - 20:44

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Ray, I'd just like to say that in my report of Duncan's talk to our club I did my best to set down accurately what he had told us. However, I wrote from memory some days after the talk, and may well have got some details wrong. At the time I never dreamed that my report in the magazine of a fairly minor motor club would contribute to this controversy in the way that it seems to have done.


Thanks Tim... I don't think that's a problem...

Writing 'from memory' must surely mean that the name of Bob Chamberlain came into Duncan's presentation with sufficient strength for you to believe he was the source. And there cannot have been enough mention of anyone else for you to recall that he wasn't. Right?

There was even a bit of detail about Bob's other exploits to underline things.

So, if Bob Chamberlain wasn't involved at all in the life progress of this chassis, why was he a part of Duncan's presentation? I don't really think your report on things was far from what was said.

Originally posted by epoch911
Thanks Ray for proving exactly what I meant about the "down the pub" expert. You have turned general comments from Tim's original posting about a talk by Duncan to a local car club into "FACT". You then use this "FACT" as proof of deceit on Duncan's part and as an opportunity to cry foul to the wider forum community. "Look, look I told you so." And to think you accused me of attempting to denigrate in the manner of my questions...

Of course, you are the expert so presumably you know Tim (and his S76 expertise) well enough to quote it in your posting as solid evidence on which to base your point. Personally I bet you've never met Tim.

Sorry Ray but you are manipulating other people's words to support your own argument. I did wonder from a recent posting of yours how you were claiming that Duncan had contradicted himself about the source of the chassis when Duncan has only posted once on the forum. And now I know.....


'General comments'? I hardly think a description of how Duncan came by the chassis that's the core of this whole thread can be considered 'general comments'. Nor can it be considered so in the context of Duncan's presentation to the club, as it is presented as the trigger to his 'restoration'. And by the way, I only looked up that site a short time before I posted.

In fact, what I was setting out to show was that there has been a definite change in Duncan's story about how he came by the chassis. I'm not 'manipulating words' at all, merely drawing attention to specifics.

As to your wonderment, I draw your attention (as David McKinney did a few days ago) to the first post in the thread. There, at about the same time as the presentation at the Bristol Pegasus club, Motor Sport tells of this project and names Bob Chamberlain as the source of the chassis. One can only assume this information came from Duncan, even if in a roundabout manner.

I will also say that, by quoting sources like this, my posting went well away from the 'down at the pub' conversation, but stood with verifiable sources backing it. Both of those sources go back to Duncan Pittaway.

.....Thank goodness Tim has the objectivity to stand up and say that his account was written some time after the event and may indeed not be accurate. Hats off to you Tim.

I had intended not to post again as there are more important things in life but you guys make it such fun, I might stick around a bit longer.


Yes, Tim (who you are right in assuming I don't know) wrote his account 'some days' after Duncan made the presentation. But I would have to think that the weight of evidence is in favour of his memory being accurate.

I can tell you too, John Medley is hoping you'll stick around.

But what we all want is for Duncan Pittaway to turn up and explain things to us...

#148 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 53,724 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:01

I've been reminded that what's being forgotten in all of this is the importance of the issues being discussed to Australian motoring and motor racing history...

If an S76 was here and raced on our tracks, or even on our roads, we'd like to know more about it.

If there was a race from Armidale/Armadale 'to the coast', we'd like to know about it.

The who, what, when, where, and why questions need to be answered for the sake of completeness of our accounts of racing's past in this country.

It's all very problematical, however. The incredible Ivan Saxton has conclusively shown that Stuart Middlehurst essentially couldn't have had anything to do with any S76 chassis without him knowing about it. Just like others can say with great certainty that Bob Chamberlain couldn't have.

Brian Lear is just one who has spent years foraging through old newspapers in libraries looking for the slightest clues about racing, racing cars and racing people... and he has found nothing. John Medley has joined in this hunt and reports nothing that even sounds like the circumstances or cars described.

The S76 is an iconic car of the first order. When finished, it will attract a great deal of attention from all sources. Because of that, it will always be under a microscope and this thread will always be there to point out the anomolies.

In short, as someone who reads this with eagerness but doesn't post said to me today, this discussion is not simply going to go away...

#149 john medley

john medley
  • Member

  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: November 02

Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:31

Dear epoch911
It appears to me that you dont understand. You dont understand(for example) what Ray ( and others) have written.

You genuinely dont get it.

I started this thread,

I have just returned from a very pleasant Christmas, I have checked my computer, I am drinking a stalky litle red, I have a very serious interest in Australian motor racing history, I have met and respect many of those those involved in this saga, and I would like to know more. I am interested in enquiring. I am a motor racing historian( and I still race very old cars)

My career was in education. One concern was about kids with Aspergers. The amazing Ivan Saxton has demonstrated how he and others can be advantaged not disadvantaged by Aspergers. I found your arrogance about this offensive.

You dont get it. You dont get any of it.

We in Australia(and New Zealand) have always been around the other side of the world to you people, but we are proud of what we thought we did, and most of us are earnest and proper and dedicated to what our forbears did, and, quite simply, we want to know, and to know more. We dont need your insular arrogance or your apparently vested interest. We dont need you to suggest that we on this forum have done something wrong. We havent.

And one of the clumsy beauties of what you have done is that you have demonstrated that given your activities on this forum you have helped to demonstrate that Duncan doesnt have a real car -- the point we have been trying to make all along. All we wanted was the truth. We didnt want to hunt Duncan. We just wanted the truth. Those who decide propriety in our old cars have looked at you and found you and Duncan wanting. You have helped him in this.

We are proud of our Oz motor racing history and we want to see the Beast of Turin run and race -- but stop raping us

There is terminology in my country that sums up you, epochwhateveryournameis but I will refrain. When I am well in the morning, I will respond( this is a very good red)

I will just duck out now and have another stalky red. Epoch, I will contact you in the morning. Good luck. Dont expect me or anybody else to be this polite.

Regards
JM




#150 Ivan Saxton

Ivan Saxton
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 31 December 2009 - 09:41

It would appear that Duncan is not particularly interested in forums (he's posted only once in 2 years) but his silence on TNF seems to be being interpreted as deception or proof of guilt. Not everyone has TNF bookmarked in their browsers and many people just don't engage in forum activity. What happens if he never logs on to the site?


Duncan Pittaway is aware of the debate being held here. He was alerted to this forum topic by a friend and posted a response which created more questions than answers. He obviously cared enough about what was being written here to write his post, so it makes sense that he would check back to see how his post was received, at least initially. Requests for more proof were made in the posts that immediately followed, and he would have seen these. He would also have seen that debate continued and more questions were raised.

If he chooses to let a debate run in public without representing himself or even watching (despite claiming he has evidence that could end the matter instantly, but refuses to post it for reasons known only to himself), that's his decision. It's starting to look like an unfortunate decision, though.
When the term “Duncan Pittaway” is entered into Google, this forum topic is the first link that appears.

For what it's worth, if such a thread was going on about one of my cars, I would check back more often than once every two years.