Posted 04 February 2011 - 14:23
S76 Flickr Gallery
Posted 20 June 2011 - 16:23
Amazing site. Interesting results if you search for fiat, le mans, grand prix, darracq, renault or cyclecar.
Duray at Ostende, photos dated 30 November and 3 December 1913:
Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:18
It doesn't look that different from the previous ones but a lot has happened. Gearbox is in, wooden frame is done, various versions of bodywork have been tried etc etc. Here's a few lovely details...
Finally, here's a long shot. Anyone have any ideas on what shade of red it should have been?
Edited by smarjoram, 17 April 2012 - 10:26.
Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:03
I am a bit of a traditionalist in these things, and whilst the in-progress shots and the no doubt countless finished-product shots along with the eulogistic tests and mag articles will be interesting, I always like to see the "before" - the "this is what I started with" shots are always far more telling. That is why I always had so much time for Rodney Felton and his cars. His honesty always ensured that you knew what he had done.
OT a bit, that is one reason why I have always asked to see the remindered parts from the restoration of Multi Union II after it was restored back to a tipo b monoposto.
Edited by bradbury west, 17 April 2012 - 12:04.
Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:04
Posted 17 April 2012 - 13:27
For my part, my efforts to resurrect the 18HP 1909 Thornycroft supplied new to legendary Australian, Sir Sidney Kidman, details of which have appeared elsewhere on this forum, have struck a new and unexpected problem. Australia has a piece of legislation known as the 'Protection of Movable Cultural Heritage Act'. This is designed to keep articles of cultural value in Australia, and has for example prevented the sale of a famous Silver Ghost overseas. The Australians who sold the remains of Sir Sidney's first car back to the UK met no opposition, because frankly no-one at that point believed that it was genuinely SK's car. They even doubted it was actually a Thornycroft. I now know it unquestionably is his car and I have lots of evidence to prove it.
The considered view of an Australian old vehicle expert to whom I have spoken, is that should I ever wish to sell my Thornycroft, the Aussies will invoke this legislation and claim it back for Australia where it spent most of its life, as its too important to be let out permanently. Maybe the S76 chassis is similarly culturally important and should never have been allowed out of Australia. Nobody disputes the provenance of the engine, but the rest of the car, well that's a fine recreation, but I personally share Roger's doubt that it's any more than that.
Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:07
I don't possess a picture of the bent chassis and axles as I didn't know Duncan then. The engine is plain to see. Everything else is either found or manufactured. I'm trying my best to show the parts in detail - and to highlight which are original and which are new. It's all I can do.
I hasten to point out that I was not aiming my comments at your goodself, but as a general observation about many so-called restorations, as opposed to re-creations. I could not care less what people do with the latter so long as they tell the truth about the origins, as with restorations. In many cases I have championed exact re-creations since for many of us some of these devices are the nearest we get to the real thing, often long gone or secreted in reclusive collections.
On a personal note, however, I do appreciate your contribution here as your photo- files are excellent as are all of your drawings. It is worth noting, too, I feel, Duncan Pittaway's openness with access to his workshops. I have no doubt that he will reveal all when the time is right.
Edited by bradbury west, 17 April 2012 - 14:10.
Posted 17 April 2012 - 23:24
I know that most of us await with awe the noise and the performance of this Beast of Turin
I didnt think I had a great deal of interest in cars built and raced before 1918 -- until this remarkable thread. My search for more detail continues -- a great journey. Thanks all
I received two weeks ago 3 photographs taken 20th May 1931 of that section of the Armidale-to-Kempsey road where the "race to the coast" ended . The photographs show where the alleged Fiat S76/ alleged Lion Peugeot fell down the 60 foot embankment, and the chain driven car inverted in the dry watercourse. The photos were taken by the mother of she (now 90 years of age) who sent them to me, because they walked from their house to the accident site the day after the accident(thank you Dick Willis for the lead). I will be speaking again to the 90 year old today( she recalls that the car was blue...-- before the damage from bushfires and water and lightfingered people)
Shortly after the photos arrived, the indefatigable Brian Lear sent me a "Sydney Morning Herald" news item describing and dating( we think) the accident.
I spoke to the man who in the late 1950s told Stuart Middlehurst(and Bob Chamberlain) that the car was down the embankment in that billygoat country, and to whose place in Armidale the two Victorians went in the early 1960s with the remains so they could discuss what it was. Today I hope to speak to a friend of that man, because those two often drove from Armidale to view the inverted remains in the 1950s
There remain many questions, but this may well put the final nail into some assertions and some refutations made in this thread. Thank you Ivan Saxton, and more
It wasnt a Fiat S76 that crashed in a race to the coast.
I now suspect that it wasnt a Lion Peugeot, either.
Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:59
A careful review of specifications and photographs of each 1908 GP des Voiturettes competitor (as an example)shows some of this sameness. Careful reading of the regulations for the same race suggests that sameness was generated by the regulations: even the height of the seats above the ground was mandated.
So, I think I am suggesting that we CAN identify the chassis at Bellbrook as a Lion Peugeot, because it looks like a Lion Peugeot -- but it could look like any number of cars.
One sticking point is the engine: it is not like any Lion Peugeot engine I can find. While I was unsure before, I am now certain it is not a Boudreaux-Verdet 6 valve single. There was no engine like Neville Roberts' engine in the 1908 GP des Voiturettes. As a water-cooled single cylinder fixed head hemispherical combustion chamber twin plug overhead valve(carried in two screw-in cages, valve included angle 87 degrees) probably using pushrods and of approximately 100mm/200mm bore/stroke, to my eye it most closely resembles the 4?cylinder 1904-05 Pipe engine(at least in the cylinder and valve actuation details ) shown as a drawing in Griffith Borgeson's "Twin Cam Engine..."...
So, I can understand the incorrect guesses made 50+ years ago by Stuart Middlehurst and Bob Chamberlain, and in answer to your question all I can guess at this stage is "whoever used an engine with those specifications".Of course, it may help to discover what car Bob Anthony registered in NSW in 1930-31.
Was there ever a single cylinder Pipe? Who copied Pipe's ideas in a single cylinder engine? Who did it early enough to put in a "Lion Peugeot" chassis before ?1910? Or was it inserted to replace the original engine in that chassis?
There is perhaps another complication: even though that one cylinder was found and photographed at the crash site by Stuart Middlehurst in ?1961(and Neville Roberts has those photographs), Nora's 1931 photos appear to show the sump of perhaps a 4 cylinder engine
Is there anyone here on TNF who can look at the Pipe drawing in Borgeson(as above), and hazard a guess re date/details of the single cylinder engine in Neville Roberts' possession?
Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:56
I do hope someone can come up with some of the details that are so necessary to unravel it.
6-valves? In a single I could understand that, but would anyone replicate it cylinder after cylinder in a multi-cylinder engine? Would they see a need to do that?
And when did the list of registered owners of all NSW cars cut out? I've only seen them to about 1914 IIRC.
Posted 18 April 2012 - 18:09
Indeed... But the fact remains that the chassis of any racing voiturette of the pre-First War era could not possibly be confused with the chassis of the S 76 unless perhaps it shrunk while lying bent down a ditch beside the road where it crashed... It was indeed a Monster car and appropriately named as such. The Lion Peugeots were fairly delicate things...
This is a puzzle par excellence...
Posted 18 April 2012 - 20:57
Rust might well have taken its toll into the fifties, of course, but still the overall dimensions would have been evident. Like Roger, I hope progress photos have been taken so the original chassis can be seen.
Posted 04 February 2013 - 21:53
The one cylinder in Neville Roberts' possession comes from a Ferdinand Porsche designed "Prince Henry Trial"Austro Daimler from 1910/1911. There is only one difference in the detail: Neville's engine does not have the screw-on flange which links cylinder to crankcase -- but then this was noted from a print source, never from a photograph. Every other detail is correct, even down to the position of bolt- and rivet-holes in the chassis. I had previously guessed at Austro Daimler, but thanks to Eddie Berrisford's confirming of this, we have certainty. Thanks too to Desmond Peacock who had earlier confirmed that the chassis was not Peugeot or Lion Peugeot.
What Bob Anthony was doing in a 1910"Prince Henry Trial" Austro Daimler on the Armidale-to-Kempsey road in 1931 we still havent fully resolved, but we have found in 1919 car registrations a 25hp Austro Daimler registration number 8974 in the name of John Newton of Kempsey.
Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:07
The assertion that the S76 chassis came from some speedy run from 'Armidale to the coast' comes from the knowledge that this chassis had laid bent up off the side of that road for decades?
Or is it all some kind of strange mistake where stories got crossed up?
Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:42
The fact remains that there is scant chance that a 25HP Austro Daimler chassis could be confused with a 300HP FIAT chassis either! See my post #214 above...
the S76 chassis came from some speedy run from 'Armidale to the coast'....
One of the joys of pursuing answers to this puzzle has led me to discover the writings of Francis Rodwell Banks (check him out on Wikipedia) and the remarkable 6 cylinder Stromboli engine he helped develop to power British airships like R100 and 101, and indeed to replace the entirely unsuitable Beardmore marine engines adopted in the absence of something purpose built. The Stromboli had 6 cylinders of 12" bore and 16" stroke and 8 poppet valves disposed around each head, hence 48 valves in total. It had a rating of 1500HP... Maybe some VSCC enthusiast would like to find one and install it in a suitable chassis... Would make the S76 look rather feeble by comparison...
Posted 05 February 2013 - 21:26
Duncan Pittaway says he was told that the chassis he has was S76 Fiat, crashed in a "race" between "Armadale" and the "coast". This is clearly refuted: it was not a Fiat, it was not a race, it was not a race from Armidale to the coast. It is my view that Bob Anthony drove his Austro Daimler not from Armidale but for only 19kms before the accident from his griefstricken passenger's parents' home shortly after the death of his passenger's father
What appears to remain of the mystery are the markings on parts Duncan Pittaway has, the photographs Duncan Pittaway says he has, the precise ownership history of the car crashed at Bellbrook, and which car John Ryder referred to in one of his posts earlier in this thread
Posted 07 April 2013 - 00:31
a small deviation....
"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" is not that new at all (from 1923)
Edited by 275 GTB-4, 07 April 2013 - 10:42.
Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:39
and could this be the S76 coming into the country? (Barrier Miner Broken Hill Saturday 30 January 1926)
Edited by 275 GTB-4, 07 April 2013 - 10:40.
Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:31
See also the Ernest Eldridge thread:
Ernest Eldridge; a breif history - can anyone add to it?
and here's Doug Nye's vivid description of the time he drove 'Mephistopheles':
Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:48
Eldridge took a 1908 chassis (the S 76 was of 1910/1911 vintage) and fitted an aero engine into it after stiffening the chassis with a section of Leyland frame.