84 replies to this topic

[JoBo]

Lemme guess... He not speaka thatta languish?

 

senn he muss a lern....

[Vitesse2]

German was never widely taught in British schools and very few people (me included) ever took it beyond O-level, which was taken after as little as two years, whereas most people would have done at least five years of French by the time they took the same exam - and of course we're famously bad at learning languages anyway: all those bloody tenses and verbs, not to mention the inexplicable idioms and the German insistence of putting the verb at the end of the sentence (warum? ).

 

“Whenever the literary German dives into a sentence, this is the last you are going to see of him till he emerges on the other side of his Atlantic with his verb in his mouth.” - Mark Twain

I'm perfectly okay with written German - when I can take my time to understand it with a dictionary and a guide to idioms - but I'm afraid I have to give up on much conversational German.

[Cavalier53]

My apologies for any misunderstanding about the "unfortunate" use of German language - I live just 45 mins from Bernd Rosemeyers' birthplace Lingen and often passed the street named after him, worked there for 4 years and regularly visit our companies R&D centre there - but as Vitesse pointed out, for the English speaking majority on TNF unfortunately understanding of the spoken German language will be very limited, and Google translate cannot help those either.

 

From my side, I recognise the style of German language Bernd spoke in his interview after the 3-wheel adventure in Pescara, similar to my colleagues just across the border.

 

Anyway, the interviews with the actors and Bernd Jr. were hardly audible at all, what matters is the biopic we are looking forward to.

 

So BOT: I hope our German contributors can find out the date the film will be shown on ZDF, make copies and possibly find out if the DVD will at least have English (and other) subtitles to please the TNF majority?

[Michael Ferner]

(warum? ).

 

Ve must protect our language as ve must protect our faterland! Zus, ve need to make sure zat no foreigners can take over our language, and zat is accomplished by making it virtually incomprehensible!! By putting ze verb at ze very end, it vill take ze enemy much longer to understand ze meaning, and give ze German soldier a decisive time advantage!!!

[Vitesse2]

Ve must protect our language as ve must protect our faterland! Zus, ve need to make sure zat no foreigners can take over our language, and zat is accomplished by making it virtually incomprehensible!! By putting ze verb at ze very end, it vill take ze enemy much longer to understand ze meaning, and give ze German soldier a decisive time advantage!!!

 

There's a possibly apocryphal story about a translator at the UN who was providing the English version of a speech by a German statesman (Kohl, perhaps - he was always very voluble). Whoever the speaker was he carried on for about twenty seconds, during which the English translation went silent. English speakers started checking their headphones and looking up at the translation gallery, wondering what was wrong: the increasingly anguished translator eventually broke - "The verb, man - give me the bloody verb!!"

[D-Type]

Didn't the Romans also put the verb at the end? 

[Michael Ferner]

Si vis pacem, para bellum

 

Hm, no.

 

Veni, vidi, vici

 

Yes, but...

[Allan Lupton]

Quote

“Whenever the literary German dives into a sentence, this is the last you are going to see of him till he emerges on the other side of his Atlantic with his verb in his mouth.” - Mark Twain

 

Can't rememember who it was said of [can't recall whom] " He would set up a verb in the middle distance and then stalk it relentlessly through phrase and clause for several minutes."

 

Mind you even in England we older Children's Hour listeners the training course of the whole thing by Dennis the Dachshund given were!

[Allan Lupton]

Si vis pacem, para bellum

 

Hm, no.

 

Veni, vidi, vici

 

Yes, but...

"Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est"

[Michael Ferner]

It gets even better with embedded clauses, which can be added at will in German. One comedian once constructed a perfectly valid sentence, which went on for minutes (really!) with not a verb in sight, only to end in a staccato of several dozens!

 

 

EDIT Can't find the original in a hurry, but try this one for size:

 

Mitnichten hat die Nase meiner Wirtin, deren Name Eulalia, wie sie die Güte sich zu erinnern hatten, lautet, geblutet, aber mich hatte morgens die Polizei, da ein Fahrrad, das ein Mann der eine graue Jacke die vielfach geflickt war trug, fuhr, mit einem Auto, das auf der Strasse die über die Geleise, die vom Bahnhof, der unmittelbar bei meiner Wohnung liegt, kommen, führt, entlangkam, zusammenstieß, gebeten meine Beobachtungen als Zeuge zu Protokoll zu geben.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 February 2014 - 21:53.

[JoBo]

It gets even better with embedded clauses, which can be added at will in German. One comedian once constructed a perfectly valid sentence, which went on for minutes (really!) with not a verb in sight, only to end in a staccato of several dozens!

 

 

EDIT Can't find the original in a hurry, but try this one for size:

Sorry - but nobody in Germany speaks or writes that way! So -- nonsens!

 

JoBo

[JoBo]

Ve must protect our language as ve must protect our faterland! Zus, ve need to make sure zat no foreigners can take over our language, and zat is accomplished by making it virtually incomprehensible!! By putting ze verb at ze very end, it vill take ze enemy much longer to understand ze meaning, and give ze German soldier a decisive time advantage!!!

 

Well, I think more Germans speak English today than English people speak German. Seems that we are more flexible on this point, no?

 

JoBo

[JoBo]

By putting ze verb at ze very end, it vill take ze enemy much longer to understand ze meaning, and give ze German soldier a decisive time advantage!!!

 

Oh gee - WWII never ended in the UK!!!

 

Back to cars...pleazzzzzze! 

 

JoBo

[Michael Ferner]

Sorry - but nobody in Germany speaks or writes that way! So -- nonsens!

 

JoBo

 

Well, somebody did - and it wasn't me! I believe the original example I was thinking of was by either Joachim Ringelnatz or Christian Morgenstern, two superb craftsmen of the German language, but it could easily have been somebody else, like Loriot, Erich Kästner, Wilhelm Busch, Kurt Tucholsky, Robert Gernhardt or Heinz Erhardt - the list is virtually endless! For all the lack of humour we Germans supposedly possess, there is a long tradition of comedy and parody, and much of that involves our own language - perhaps BECAUSE it is held in such almost sacred esteem by the (sometimes snobby) literati of this country. Yet, like many other languages, (good) German is slowly dying away. Contrary to JoBo's belief, most Germans do not speak English at all, instead they like to use English words and phrases (which are often quite clearly out of context!) in their everyday German conversation in order to impress, appear modern or "hip", which leads to the dreaded Denglisch "dialect" that is then, in turn, mistaken by many as proper command of a foreign language! It is not unusual, therefore, to find signs in public buildings asking you to "please turn out your handy" which is, admittedly, understood by most English speakers (whether native or not) who have spent even the shortest of time in Germany, but at the same time it's terrible (if not criminal!) butchery of two languages at once!

 

God, I hate Denglisch!

 

 

EDIT Well, the name Heinz Erhardt rung a bell, but it wasn't the right one - but still, enjoyable

 

Man muß sogenannte Schachtelsätze, die als Unart vieler Dichter, die teilweise sogar noch leben, weil man vergessen hat, sie totzuschlagen, gelten, meiden!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 26 February 2014 - 10:10.

[kayemod]

Contrary to JoBo's belief, most Germans do not speak English at all...

 

Ich bin Englander, but I've spent quite a lot of time in Germany over the years, I've even been to Bitburg, and I agree with Michael. Outside tourist areas and away from business and professional people who need the language for work, in my experience it's quite unusual to find Germans much over 30 who speak even basic English, and why on earth should they? Also, it isn't just down to missed education and lack of exposure to English speakers, a recently retired German friend spent most of his working life as a civilian worker on a USAF base, and after around 30 years of listening to Americans, about all he can manage is "Rice Krispies" drawled in a deep south accent. The English have a well known aversion to learning foreign tongues, or in a depressing number of cases these days, learning almost anything at all, but although the number of reasonably proficient English speakers in Germany is not enormous, it must vastly outnumber the number of German speakers in England. So in this area at least, "Deutschland über Alles".

 

PS, I've had to type this twice, the first time I tried it all disappeared when I clicked on 'Post', anyone else had this problem?

[JoBo]

Well, somebody did - and it wasn't me! I believe the original example I was thinking of was by either Joachim Ringelnatz or Christian Morgenstern, two superb craftsmen of the German language, but it could easily have been somebody else, like Loriot, Erich Kästner, Wilhelm Busch, Kurt Tucholsky, Robert Gernhardt or Heinz Erhardt - the list is virtually endless! For all the lack of humour we Germans supposedly possess, there is a long tradition of comedy and parody, and much of that involves our own language - perhaps BECAUSE it is held in such almost sacred esteem by the (sometimes snobby) literati of this country. Yet, like many other languages, (good) German is slowly dying away. Contrary to JoBo's belief, most Germans do not speak English at all, instead they like to use English words and phrases (which are often quite clearly out of context!) in their everyday German conversation in order to impress, appear modern or "hip", which leads to the dreaded Denglisch "dialect" that is then, in turn, mistaken by many as proper command of a foreign language! It is not unusual, therefore, to find signs in public buildings asking you to "please turn out your handy" which is, admittedly, understood by most English speakers (whether native or not) who have spent even the shortest of time in Germany, but at the same time it's terrible (if not criminal!) butchery of two languages at once!

 

God, I hate Denglisch!

 

 

EDIT Well, the name Heinz Erhardt rung a bell, but it wasn't the right one - but still, enjoyable

 

Michael,

 

Morgenstern (1871-1914) was a poet who used a different way of writing than we do in our days. Ringelnatz (1883-1934) was a poet but also a artist that we call today a Comedian. 

So to refer to this text that was probably written by one of them (what I doubt!) as the German we spear and write today is non-realistic.

 

btw.- German parody of German language is excellent:

 

 

and
 

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 26 February 2014 - 16:30.

[Michael Ferner]

Ich bin Englander, but I've spent quite a lot of time in Germany over the years, I've even been to Bitburg

 

Next time you're in Bitburg, stop by for a beer - zat's an order!!

[kayemod]

 

Next time you're in Bitburg, stop by for a beer - zat's an order!!

 

Jawohl mein Freund! "Bitte ein Bit!"

[Michael Ferner]

Can't fault your taste in movies, "Clay"

[Cavalier53]

OMG what have i started with my clumsy remark about the unfortunate German language.... Please friends, back on topic! When will the Elly Beinhorn biopic be shown on ZDF?

 

In the mean time, there was a distress call from a vessel off the German coast: SOS - we are sinking - we are sinking - - - .

German coast guard: - - - What are you thinking about ? - - -

[Allan Lupton]

OMG what have i started with my clumsy remark about the unfortunate German language.... Please friends, back on topic! When will the Elly Beinhorn biopic be shown on ZDF?

ZDF? I recall there was the KDF, but . . .

[JoBo]

Maybe the Nihilists do?

 

Ve believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow ve come back and ve cut off your chonson.

Ve vant ze money, Lebowski.

Ja, uzzervize ve kill ze girl.

Ve don't care. Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or ve f!@k you up.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7AEMiz6rcxc

 

Ever heard an Italian speaking English - or a Frenchman (if both are able to do it)? HAH.... 

 

Well, looking around on this planet I am pretty glad that I live in Germany.....

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 26 February 2014 - 23:28.

[Cavalier53]

Back on topic: for those of you that can watch the 2nd German channel: Sunday 30 March at 20:15 Elly Beinhorn - Alleinflug is on the schedule. Seems to be a rather romantic biopic, but let us hope to be pleasently surprised. See http://alleinflug.zdf.de/ for a first impression.

[Tim Murray]

Did anyone watch it? Was it any good?

[Cavalier53]

I did but was hoping to find comments by a more knowlegeable TNF'er. I'll have to have another look at the recording this weekend, my first impression really hampered by the voices being difficult to hear (was that my ears or TV set-tings? - I must have turned up the volume enough to scare the neighbours when the music score played).

 

As expected based on the trailer, a romanticised biopic but with original clips from Elly with her planes and Bernd racing. Possibly with different races mixed up, but using some original material I didn't see before is certainly commendable, even when not perfect historically.

This cannot be compared to a multimilliom movie undertaking, so my compliments for the effort to show this history to the general public, for now a 7 on a 1-10 scale.

 

What I missed (but again - i should have tried subtitles if they were there) is how she got started in flying at all. And the hesitation to enter into a relationship with such innocent young boy i picked up from our more knowledgeable TNF'ers.

 

I'd love to hear from our experts - they can order the program on DVD for review, in the original language.

[Vitesse2]

The complete programme is now available on the link in post 73. I've just downloaded it.

 

(Flash version appears to be copy-protected, but if you click on the 'mediathek' link bottom right of the thumbnail screen and then select HTML at the bottom of the screen that opens you can download it as a .webm file, which can be played on VLC Media Player and others. There are also Quicktime .mov file links on that page, but I don't do Apple.)

[Racer3]

What I missed (but again - i should have tried subtitles if they were there) is how she got started in flying at all.

 

Hi Cavalier53,

just stumbled upon this thread by accident and found the answer to your question given by her son Bernd Rosemeyer in the documentary to the movie "Alleinflug", where he tells that his mother had attended a talk/lecture by Hermann Köhl (in English on Wikipedia), a German aviation pioneer and pilot of the first transatlantic flight from East to West, and was that much fascinated, that she decided to become a pilot herself.

Edited by Racer3, 04 April 2014 - 22:31.

[Michael Ferner]

Just watched "Alleinflug", and it was a wasted two hours of my life I was tempted, probably a dozen times during the film, to abort, but sadly resisted. Don't bother.

[Vitesse2]

I've watched the first half-hour - I'll finish it tomorrow - but what threw me for a while was that the sound synchronisation looked to be wrong on some of it. Then I realised that the actors were actually speaking English and that the German soundtrack was dubbed onto it! So presumably ZDF have hopes of selling an English version to foreign TV stations - or releasing an English DVD - as well?

[LittleChris]

I've watched the first half-hour - I'll finish it tomorrow - but what threw me for a while was that the sound synchronisation looked to be wrong on some of it. Then I realised that the actors were actually speaking English and that the German soundtrack was dubbed onto it! So presumably ZDF have hopes of selling an English version to foreign TV stations - or releasing an English DVD - as well?

Is it possible it was actually produced by an English speaking company who sold it to ZDF ?

[Vitesse2]

Just watched "Alleinflug", and it was a wasted two hours of my life I was tempted, probably a dozen times during the film, to abort, but sadly resisted. Don't bother.

Well, it works as a nice bit of gentle Sunday night drama, probably mainly aimed at a female audience, but as an historical document it leaves a lot to be desired. They played around with the locations and chronology of her flights - not to mention her first encounter with Bernd. I realise that there's still a lot of sensitivity about the 30s in Germany, but for me this was just too sanitised - especially the portrayal of Udet. However, the major historical howler was still having Elly's father alive at the end ...

 

The brief snatches of contemporary racing footage were entirely random and I spotted at least one AU D-type in 1939 specification and a 1938 MB W154: there was film from (at least) Avus, Nürburgring, Pescara and Monza. I think there was even some Donington Park in there too.

 

So, as a drama - I'd agree 7/10 is about right. For historical accuracy: 1/10.

 

Is it possible it was actually produced by an English speaking company who sold it to ZDF ?

No, it was made by a German company called UFA Fiction. They only seem to have been founded last year, but IMDB shows them as having nine projects complete or currently in production for 2014, including one called Stations of the Cross, which is in German, French and Latin.

 

Some of Alleinflug - the sections with dubbed English dialogue, which mainly involved two characters who were supposed to be the American fliers Stephens and Halliburton - was apparently filmed in South Africa, which was doubling as the Sahara (although Elly actually met Stephens and Halliburton in Persia!). However, I can't find a full cast list to work out who the 'Americans' were.

[ReWind]

who the 'Americans' were.

 

Colin Moss (Moye Stephens) & Rory Acton Burnell (Richard Halliburton)

[Vitesse2]

Colin Moss (Moye Stephens) & Rory Acton Burnell (Richard Halliburton)

Both of whom are actually South Africans! I should have recognised Rory Acton Burnell - he played a South African medic in Bluestone 42 a BBC comedy about a bomb disposal team in Afghanistan (I know it doesn't sound funny, but it had its moments!) That was also filmed in South Africa.

 

Thanks, Reinhard.

[Michael Ferner]

Well, it works as a nice bit of gentle Sunday night drama, probably mainly aimed at a female audience, but as an historical document it leaves a lot to be desired. They played around with the locations and chronology of her flights - not to mention her first encounter with Bernd. I realise that there's still a lot of sensitivity about the 30s in Germany, but for me this was just too sanitised - especially the portrayal of Udet. However, the major historical howler was still having Elly's father alive at the end ...

 

The brief snatches of contemporary racing footage were entirely random and I spotted at least one AU D-type in 1939 specification and a 1938 MB W154: there was film from (at least) Avus, Nürburgring, Pescara and Monza. I think there was even some Donington Park in there too.

 

So, as a drama - I'd agree 7/10 is about right. For historical accuracy: 1/10.

 

I didn't even want to get into the historical accuracy side of the flick, but yes, definitely Donington Park footage, and Roosevelt Raceway, too. For me, it lacked everything I want to see in a movie; its plot fairly conventional, even considering the restrictions of a docu drama, the script rather bad, the dialogue and characters pretty wooden, and the photography... well, first class in a Film High School? In other words, extremely boring.

 

The leading actors were pretty sub par, too. The Rosemeyer character had none of the charisma that one can already sense from looking at photographs (he actually reminded me of Mika Häkkinen, at first! ), while the female lead looked out of her depth at times. And you're right about German sensitivities about the 30s, that was awful, too. Thankfully, I have already forgotten most of it!

[Vitesse2]

I didn't even want to get into the historical accuracy side of the flick, but yes, definitely Donington Park footage, and Roosevelt Raceway, too. For me, it lacked everything I want to see in a movie; its plot fairly conventional, even considering the restrictions of a docu drama, the script rather bad, the dialogue and characters pretty wooden, and the photography... well, first class in a Film High School? In other words, extremely boring.

 

The leading actors were pretty sub par, too. The Rosemeyer character had none of the charisma that one can already sense from looking at photographs (he actually reminded me of Mika Häkkinen, at first! ), while the female lead looked out of her depth at times. And you're right about German sensitivities about the 30s, that was awful, too. Thankfully, I have already forgotten most of it!

Well, in these politically correct times we wouldn't want to see some of Bernd's little japes, would we? Putting fireworks under the bonnet of Neubauer's car for one! I agree the guy playing Bernd - while he did have something of the right features - was just too serious-looking: I meant to mention that. In virtually every 'off-duty' picture I've ever seen of Bernd he's smiling and there's an air of barely-concealed mischief. They got the hat right - but why no lederhosen and long socks?

 

And in the scene in Bernd and Elly's flat why was Doktor Porsche still wearing his homburg indoors while sitting in an armchair and drinking coffee? Oh - and I still say the actress playing Elly was too tall!

 

In short - like Rush - if you approach it as fiction then you probably won't be disappointed. But don't expect either great acting or historical accuracy.