85 replies to this topic

[Bjorn Kjer]

I really thought I knew or had , but nope , I would like some HELP please , clearing up colours on this car , very popular in 1964 , very much less in 1965 and virtually gone by 1966.

The works cars usually was silver , Filipinetti red with a white front lid , RT Holland not allways orange , "Franc" not overall French blue , did SMART have a 904 that was light green with a dark green delta on the front , and Team Argentina blue and yellow (?) , and was the Franchorchamps in 64 the "Elde" in 65 ? Yellow ?
And what about Stoop , de Udy/Porsche GB silver with a green stripe , R.Buchet , C. Dubois , C. Poirot and J. Rey ????????Or others?????

Other infos or pics is of course welcome , let it be the 904 thread we do not have!

[Carlos Guerra]

Hi Bjørn,

Are you aware of this?

http://www.heel-verl...schemarken,.htm

[Bjorn Kjer]

Nice adv with all infos , I knew of the book but I cant have them all ! Thanks Carlos!
So my own here and now wants are LM 1964 and 65!

[Bjorn Kjer]

Having found colours for LM64 I am still looking for the others , any help ?

[r.atlos]

At least some bits and pieces from my side:

- Dickie Stoop's car (YOU4) was BRG.
- The Filipinetti car had a white stripe over the entire body, not only the front.

Not sure why you think that the RT Holland cars had not always been orange; I have no recollection of them racing in any other colour.

[thecako]

Marathon de la route

Some picture of the 904 here

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks so far guys , also found some b/w pics , but that does not quite give the colours! Are there really no more than us few Porsche lovers/likers ??

[Bjorn Kjer]

British 904s seems to have been in the stables of SMART , Dickie Stoop ,Mefco Racing and Porsche GB Ltd.
Right or wrong ? I have a feeling that the last 2 was "1" ? Any colours ?

[r.atlos]

There have been six 904s originally sold to UK customers, 2 directly from the factory (for Moss) and four via AFN:

- 904-025: Moss ("Borneo" green)
- 904-045: Stoop (Irish green, not BRG as mentioned in my earlier post)
- 904-071: de Udy (silver; crashed shortly after delivery ?)
- 904-085: de Udy (silver)
- 904-088: Moss (unknown)
- 904-097: Morris (silver)

[jarama]

The #163 in the following picture is Jacques Rey & Jean-Pierre Hanrioud's 904 @ the '64 Tour de France:





Carles.

[jarama]

The following pictures are from the '66 Rallye de Lorraine.



This one, clearly silver, is Jean-Pierre Gaban & Justin Giets' 904:






The #64, green, is unknown to me, 'though the following teams were @ the start of the '66 Rallye de Lorraine @ the wheel of Porsches 904:
- Dumousseau & Roques, 4th o/a
- Yves Martin, DNF
- Christian Poirot & Henri Gréder, result unknown
- Edmond Meert, result unknown
- Jacques Rey, result unknown






Another picture showing the Gaban & Giets' 904:







Carles.

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by r.atlos
- The Filipinetti car had a white stripe over the entire body, not only the front.

From the Porsche Museum - used on the Targa Retrospective 1986, driven by Walter Rohrl/Dieter Glemser. Presumably Fillipinetti colours??

[r.atlos]

Thank you for these intersting and rare photos, jarama.

Here are the original colours used by these participants; however, one needs to bear in mind that we are now two years down the road from original deliveries and some cars may have changed colours since.

- Dumousseau & Roques (904-079; ex-Filipinetti; red)

- Yves Martin (904-047; silver)

- Christian Poirot & Henri Gréder (904-100; silver)

- Edmond Meert (904-104; red)

- Jacques Rey (904-075; "enamel" blue)

Two remarks:

904-100 had been delivered in silver but suffered a bad accident at Tour de Corse in 1964; not sure whether silver was retained as colour after its re-built by the factory.

Interestingly enough, there are period colour photos in Jürgen Barth's book in which Jacques Rey's car 904-075 appears to be green. Some 1965 photos are also showing an identical arrangement and positioning of those additional headlights so that Rey would be my top candidate for N° 64.


PS: Exact date of Rallye Lorraine seems to have been 08/05/1966.

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by Alan Cox


From the Porsche Museum - used on the Targa Retrospective 1986, driven by Walter Rohrl/Dieter Glemser. Presumably Fillipinetti colours??

Not only Filipinetti colours, also a Filipinetti car: 904-079, raced mainly by Herbert Müller during 1964. This is the very same car that Dumousseau used during Rallye Lorraine in 1966 (see posting above by jarama).

Typical for this car are the wide rear fenders with their aeration slots (although a later addition).

[Alan Cox]

Another shot of 079 at the 1986 Targa Retro

[john ruston]

904/079-I understand the rear was changed in 67 and a 6 cyl engine used in 68/69 when it did Tour of France.There are several models of this car.Has Alan any more photos of this car?Note it has been registered in most West European countries.I am aware the car did 64 Targa when Fillipiniti changed the chassis number to cover for a car that had been distroyed before the race.It went on to do all the major races in 64.any other stories?

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks for all info and nice pics so far.

[r.atlos]

Just to bring back some memory from "the old days": I surprised Dickie Stoop's 904 on 11/08/1964 in front of the old Nürburgring restaurant.





Not only that his 904 was registered "YOU4", his BMW 1800 TI carried a suitable "OU4" registration. Obviously, this was a Tuesday and both cars were apparently on their way back from the Schauinsland hillclimb which had taken place on 09/08/1964.

The driver, a tall, thin person stood patiently by the side until that school boy (me) had taken a couple of pictures. Only many years later I came across a photo of Dickie Stoop and realised that it had not been him who trailered 904-045 back to the UK or to some other venues in Europe.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Splendid pictures "rudi" a brit with a BMW at that time.! Picture proves that Stoops car was NOT silver , but probably some green ?

[r.atlos]

Correct, Bjørn - a very beautiful and elegant shade of green. I had simply called it BRG (British Racing Green) in one of my earlier posts but learned that it was refered to as "Irish Green" when re-thumbing through Jürgen Barth's book.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Wich then would be something like the green in the Irish flag! Jusk asked Barry on "A load of...." thread.
And Andrea Vianinis car ? Blue and yellow ?

[r.atlos]

No, much a much darker shade of green than in the Irish flag. I'll try and post a colour photo later today from a period Bosch magazine - I guess they don't mind me doing it as long as I put Bosch a couple of times in big letters next to it ...

[r.atlos]

Here it comes; was part of the cover of "Bosch Kurier", winter issue 1965/66 and shows Stoop and Herbie Müller at the 1964 Schauinsland pre-start.

[Bjorn Kjer]

I take my Aha back !Superb Rudi ! A note on Mullers Porsche , the air intake seems to be sprayed white , loking more like the Danish flag than the Swiss ! Thanks a lot !

[r.atlos]

They did it on purpose because they anticipated that you would be looking at it 43 years later ...

[thecako]

One at charade 2003

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer A note on Mullers Porsche , the air intake seems to be sprayed white , loking more like the Danish flag than the Swiss ! [/B]

Someone called Bjørn would say that
Rob

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
And Andrea Vianinis car ? Blue and yellow ?

Silver (with blue interior) acc. to Barth.

[rhegra]

...the red one 2006 at Freisinger´s booth at the Techno-Klassika in Essen.



Car was earlier with Küke in Essen, can be seen at www.kueke.com and www.freisinger-motorsport.de too.
Best regards, Christian

[Alan Cox]

904-083, now owned by James Lindsay at today's Silverstone Classic meeting. James advised me that it has now been returned to its original colour scheme with French tricolor stripe.

[r.atlos]

Looks like he is paying a lot of attention to details: I very much appreciate the registration offset to the right and made up of individual supermarket number stickers (my apologies for saying so) - but that is exactly as it was in 1966/67 in the hands Cyr Febbraio. (I guess UK authorities may not appreciate it the same way.)

904-083 may not have much of a circuit pedigree but Tour de Corse and Ronde Cévennole history may be an acceptable compensation for that. Noteworthy that Febbraio / Imbert finshed 4th overall at Ronde Cévennole in 1967 !

[Alan Cox]

I agree with you, r.atlos, he was very keen to have it looking as it did when new in 1964. You've noted that he has divided the UK registration number to mimic the original French number - as you say, I don't think that the powers-that-be would really approve!

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks a lot all of you

Ben Pon , did he call his team Team Holland or Racing team Holland ?

Leon Dernier and E-C.Clemens of Belgium , their 904s were sometime entered by Jacques Swaters of Ec.Franchorchamps. They being Ferraristis , I know they had deals with Ferrari owner/drivers , could it be they did the same with these 2 privateers , LD having driving for them earlier , and then omitting the Ec.F name!?

[r.atlos]

Hi Bjørn,

my personal re-collection and my Excel result sheets always say "Racing Team Holland". However, let me check some period programmes after dinner to be on the safe side.

As to "Eldé" a.k.a. Léon Dernier I have no re-collection of him using Ecurie Francorchamps as entrant; may be just on some specific occasions ? Again, a point to check on "night shift".

[r.atlos]

OK, having run through a couple of period programmes I can confirm now that Ben Pon's team was really down as "Racing Team Holland". Additionally, in 1964 and 1965 its location has been given as Den Haag, in 1966 as Amersfoort.

As to "Eldé" a.k.a. Léon Dernier, I see him mainly as entrant/driver. At the 1965 Solitude meeting, however, he was competing under entrance from ENB (Ecurie Nationale Belge). I reckon you would need to check Martin Krejci's lists to see as to whether and where he also may have competed under Ecurie Francorchamps entrance.

As to "Carlos" a.k.a. Claude Clemens (full first names Emile Claude, thus your abbreviation E.C.), I can only find him again as entrant/driver. That was, obviously, the car (904-084) which from 1965 onwards made quite a rallye career in the hands of Jean-Pierre Gaban.

The irritating thing is that Barth lists another Clemens (this time from Luxembourg and without giving any first name) as second owner of the red 904-038. As far as I can see, this car never has never been used ín racing in period.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Taking a year at a time I have opted for 1964 at first , where my aim is to find colours and entrants or rather teams running them , at first in WC sports car races . So far so good , a lot of info , some good colour infos,
thanks, but the entrant is not that easy , or is it ? My own info comes from memory and other random sources,but getting the Time and Two Seats I thought here it is , but no ! Having been told that Wimpffen appears to have used the "paperworker" on the entrants side , it does not allways give the team name! Thus my question above and the name Jacques Swaters popping up ! Also in T&TS all Racing Team Holland entries (or nearly , who knows ) goes as Ben Pon ! etc. ! But there was some overlapping with Gerhard Koch ,( so were they all orange ?) I shall do a little more work on "my" 80 WC entries and return with a possible question or three !

[Alan Cox]

Have you seen this site, Bjorn?

http://www.wspr-raci...porsche/904.htm

[r.atlos]

Bjørn, I guess nobody claims that T&TS (or Martin Krejci's website) is 100% correct; I reckon it's a bit along the lines of what Paul Sheldon said here on TNF some time ago: It is the author's best knowledge at the time of going to print. I personally do not mind having a frame work that is say 90% correct instead of having none.

People may choose for financial security and tax reasons to operate through a racing team - if something goes wrong you do not want it to endanger your day-to-day business or your private funds.

There may be sponsorship reasons to do so (remember it was one of the few options of going public for a sponsor prior to the "sticker age" starting from 1968 onwards). The most prominent example may be the case of Ken Gregory's BRP team operating at a given moment under "Yeoman Credit" or "UDT Laystall".

And then, last but not least, it may have something to do with organisers. They may choose not to accept Mr. X as a privateer but if he gets his car accepted under the banner of (just for argument's sake) Ecurie Francochamps - hey, presto, here we go and out of a sudden you may find a "weird" entrant for just one race.

In a case like Pon's it is still very clear for me: He was the main dealer for VW/Porsche for the Netherlands, so he was dealer, customer and (through RT Holland) entrant at the same time. Still, I would feel that any race log should show the ENTRANT (as that is proven by period documents) and not the owner (as this may be very fuzzy).

All this may be more difficult in long-distance races. There may be good reasons to operate under the banner of Team X but using the car of co-driver Y. But this is an area where period photos can give us clarity as to which car was really used.

As to Pon and Koch, I also remember that they had the occasional works drive; thus, if there are question marks about a specific race, let's discuss it here.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Alan , the chassis info on the wsrp site , my own pictures and my desire to paint my 904 models correctly kicked me of to open this thread. So far I am very encouraged with your help(s)!

r.atlos , I will now try and sort my infos a bit more and probably come back !

[john ruston]

The 904 site is twinned with Philip Ozarck book

[Henk Vasmel]

To clear up the information on RTH, Racing Team Holland, this was a bonafide racing team, set up by a few Porsche people in Holland. Their initial aim was to have a two car team, one of which was for team "owner" Ben Pon. Now Ben Pon is not the VW/Porsche importer in the Netherlands. We are talking here about Ben Pon, jr., the son of Ben Pon, sr., who was the VW/Porsche importer, and incidentally, the inventor of the VW transporter. Ben jr. now lives in California, where he is in the wine making business (Chateau Bernardus or something like that), and quite successful too.
Through his connections with Porsche, he was able to acquire decent racing cars. Gerhard Koch was one of the drivers who raced for the team, and maybe once or twice hired a car. Gijs van Lennep was also a driver for the team and the rivalry between Pon and van Lennep finally turned into a row, after which the team never was the same.
There have been revivals of the team and many more attempts to do so, but the mid sixties really was the heyday for the team.
The cars they used were Porsche 904 at first (from 1964) and then a Carrera 6 (906) in 1966. Apart from the sportscars there were also some Touring cars (BMW 1800Tisa)

The suggestion that some teams are nothing more than a vehicle to give private entrants some credibility is of course correct, and the first team that springs to mind is the Italian Jolly Club, but it doesn't apply to Racing Team Holland.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

[r.atlos]

Henk - to avoid any misunderstanding: My remarks about "teams being nothing more than a vehicle to give private entrants some credibility" was a general one - not related to RT Holland.

As we talk 904 here, the team drivers were, of course, Ben Pon jr. and Rob Slotemaker during 1964 and 1965. I understand they were no longer on perfect speaking terms after Rob had pinched his victory from "team leader" Ben in Monza in 1964. Please correct me if I am wrong but my recollection says that Gijs did not drive a 904 for RT Holland in Europe, but only a 906 from 1966 onwards. David van Lennep shared a 904 with Rob at the 1000km de Paris in 1964, though.

I am confused by your remark that Gerhard Koch drove for RT Holland. He used to run his own car in 1964 (904-028) which he sold to Rainer Ising for 1965 when he was offered works cars on a number of occasions. Without having gone through a precise race log, I think the only time he shared a drive with Ben was at the 1000km Nürburgring race in 1964.

[Henk Vasmel]

You are right on most counts. Sometimes it pays checking facts before you write and not relying on memory.
However, I have checked my database, and it seems that Koch and Pon shared a 904 on two occasions, both at the Nürburgring 1000 KM. In '64 this was as a Racing Team Holland entry, on the RTH car. In '65 it was more of the other way around, when Pon joined Koch in one of the Works Porsches.
To prevent a similar error from my previous post, I have checked the book "Racing Team Holland" and it clearly states that in '64 it was the RTH car. This is supported by the (B&W) pictures, and both books on the 904. So Koch did race for RTH, but only once, and not more times as I (wrongly) remembered.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

[r.atlos]

Henk - can you tell us a bit more who else was involved in RTH ? I reckon beside the people mentioned here before Henk van Zalinge (previously builder of the Hirondelle sport and FJ cars) may have had some connection.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hi , besides transporter pics and infos , I constantly look for infos to write a 1-2 side story of teams. I did find a little on RTNL , or rather on Ben Pon , but these info adds up very nicely thanks. The book on RTNL was only in Dutch , yes ?
I do have 3 pics with RTNL transporter , 1. MB 319 with a 904 on an open 4 wheel trailer in b/w,suggesting it to be 1964 ? 2.This one with Ben Pon and 7 others in front of DAF 1900(?) boxed, MB319,Citroen 19 Station car and a Mini ,BMW and 2 906. The DAF has lettering "racing team holland" in small letters . From 1966 and in colour, but whereas the 904 would be in the Dutch orange colours this pic shows more a "reddish" colour to all vehicles.
3. A colour pic of G.van Lennep with the DAF again now reading "racing team holland DAF formula III also "reddish "from 1968.
I would love to get this cleared up too if possible ?

As to the Pon / Koch relations , I did note in the T&TS book the difference in pairings and entrants a few times wich now has been confirmed. Also Koch appears to have founded a team with Udo Schutz later racing 906s.
Any infos on transportation to race track on any of the 904s here will be highly appriciated too.

[Paul Parker]

Bjorn if you are interested, I have used a colour shot of the SMART 904GTS at the 1964 Nurburgring 1000 Kms in my Sports Cars in Camera book which will be out at the Goodwood Revival meeting.

[Alan Cox]

I'm looking forward to the sports car book, Paul. If it's up to the standard of your previous offerings in the series, it'll find a lot of buyers among the TNF fraternity.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Paul you know I am going to get a copy,and Alan is right! It should be a seller here too!. I have some, and seen a lot of books , I know b/w can be very fascinating when properly printed on decent paper , but to my mind ( I am a modeller too!) colour puts everything to life and Paul F1 books are among the very best!

To get a bit on with 904s I made8 models 40+ years ago . At that time I did not have many books, I had not seen many coloured pictures and there was no TNF etc.etc. Now , 2 were painted red with a white stripe (Filipinetti , 2 were orange (RTNL) 1 was lighte green with a dark green delta on the nose (SMART) ,but the last 3 is a bit mysterious to me . Perhaps I read it in Autosport or just guessed ? : 1 plain white , 1 medium blue with yellow strip and 1 light blue ! Perharp someone can put some light on to what was going on in my head 40 years ago ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Paul Parker]

I've also used a '64 Sebring shot that shows the very red 904GTS of Jack Ryan that he shared with Bill Bencker, one of 5 entered before they were officially homologated.

[Henk Vasmel]

Ratlos and Björn Kjer asked for more information on the RTH. This comes from the book Racing Team Holland, by Rob Wiedenhoff. Thomas Rap, uitgever, 1967. In Dutch, with Black & White pictures. Large size, but '60s grainy quality.

The book only treats the races in '64 - '66, so it ignores what came later.

People involved. First of all, a special mention for man behind the scenes and friend, though not actively involved: HRH Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands.
For the organisation: Ben van Marken. Also Erik Hazelhoff Roelfzema and Piet Nortier.

As drivers there are: Ben Pon, Rob Slotemaker, Hans Koster, Gijs van Lennep, David van Lennep, Freek Dudok van Heel, Henk van Zalinge, Maarten Jonker and Wim Loos. Toine Hezemans also appears.
Gerhard Koch is also shown, presumably as a guest driver and not a member of the team.

The cars mentioned are the two 904's, two 906's, two BMW 1800 Tisa's (later a 2000 TI is mentioned), two
DKW's (F11 Mantzell and a similar car, disguised as Junior) and a Morris Mini Cooper s (Broadspeed).

Among the well known people on the team, there were: mechanic Karel Oudewortel (I mention him first, because he deserves it), Team manager Maarten van Wamelen, mechanics Jaap de Vries and Gerard Nol.
On a 1966 picture, there are also Jaap Veldhuyzen van Zanten, Hein Eldering and Jahn Wertmüller.

Regarding the trucks, there is only one picture, with a (the) DAF. It is seen from the side, with the name racing team holland in lower case letters plus a logo and a Lexington (cigarettes) sticker.
In front of the truck are Nol, de Vries and Oudewortel in team blazers, and in front of that, there is a 906 with racing number 42.

I hope this will make you reasonably happy.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel


Edit: There was only one BMW 1800 Tisa. The second BMW in the pictures was the 2000 TI.