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The book thread: In memory of Pete Fenelon


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#1451 philippe charuest

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 21:51

Originally posted by bradbury west
I have just received a copy of Georgano's Encylopaedia from Simon Lewis Books. Now I know why I should have bought it years ago.

RL

i assume that you talk of "the encyclopedia of motor sport" , does it cover european ,american , both ?? is it that general that it include things like stock car and drag . can you elaborate

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#1452 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 23:07

Originally posted by philippe charuest
i assume that you talk of "the encyclopedia of motor sport" , does it cover european ,american , both ?? is it that general that it include things like stock car and drag . can you elaborate

Philippe, it covers just about everything. Not in great depth, but it's almost completely accurate and gives valuable base information for any research or reading you want to do. My copy works very hard - the jacket is dog-eared and the binding is cracking, but it's still a marvellous tool, which is always my first port of call on any question. It never leaves my desk and is always within reach.

The list of contributors and acknowledgements is a "Who's Who" of motor sport history. Main editors were Georgano and Al Bochroch (he oversaw the American side). Some others: Bill Boddy, Hugh Conway, Peter Helck, TASO Mathieson, Wilson McComb, Doug Nye, Cyril Posthumus, Yves Giraud-Cabantous, Patrick Lindsay, Countess Maggi, Duncan Rabagliati, John Davenport, denis Jenkinson, David Hodges, Michael Sedgwick, David Thirlby ....

The index could have been better, but overall there's nothing to touch it.

#1453 Terry Walker

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 06:48

Georgano ... this is the one, Rainbird press 1971. Mine's in pretty good condition still, as this scan shows..

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#1454 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 08:39

Is it just a mistaken impression on my part, or have second-hand book prices started to come down? I was surprised to find a copy of Georgano, in reasonable condition, on sale at Stoneleigh for £35, and snapped up Hermann Lang's Grand Prix Driver for £25. ISTR the prices for both these being quite a lot higher a couple of years ago.

#1455 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 14:01

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Is it just a mistaken impression on my part, or have second-hand book prices started to come down? I was surprised to find a copy of Georgano, in reasonable condition, on sale at Stoneleigh for £35, and snapped up Hermann Lang's Grand Prix Driver for £25. ISTR the prices for both these being quite a lot higher a couple of years ago.


The Gordon Gekko Gang apparently are looking at other endeavors to ruin....

#1456 green-blood

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 14:31

I agree with Mr Capps 2 years ago I made a personal list and pricesd afew items, averaging their specialist shop / ebay and whenever I can attend show stand prices.... ebay prices can still be silly if there is a war, but in general the prices have to use gordon gekko speak, softened.

So Tim, seeing as you wont be making much by way of an investment, I'll give ya 20 for the Lang book now and save you from further loses :p

#1457 mark f1

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 16:10

My Georgano fell out of the cupboard onto my head 3 weeks ago....about a 3 foot drop....that hurt.

#1458 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 17:34

Originally posted by green-blood
So Tim, seeing as you wont be making much by way of an investment, I'll give ya 20 for the Lang book now and save you from further loses :p

Oh, no no no no! :lol: From time to time I try to impress on my nearest and dearest that all these silly old car books of mine are not just rubbish, and might fetch a reasonable sum when I'm gone. I do hope it sinks in, because none of them are going to be for sale before I do shuffle off this mortal coil.

If prices are 'softening' maybe I can now afford a few more of the books I've long fancied but rejected as being far too expensive. :) :)

#1459 philippe charuest

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 17:39

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Is it just a mistaken impression on my part, or have second-hand book prices started to come down? I was surprised to find a copy of Georgano, in reasonable condition, on sale at Stoneleigh for £35, ....... the prices for both these being quite a lot higher a couple of years ago.

saw the georgano book at 20£ , but not a that simon lewis place oouuch they are expensive. btw i bought this week a Setright grand prix car 1954-1966 in good shape with the dj for 15£

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#1460 petefenelon

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 18:01

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Is it just a mistaken impression on my part, or have second-hand book prices started to come down? I was surprised to find a copy of Georgano, in reasonable condition, on sale at Stoneleigh for £35, and snapped up Hermann Lang's Grand Prix Driver for £25. ISTR the prices for both these being quite a lot higher a couple of years ago.


Some things are down, others are staying resolutely pricy. I still can't find sensibly-priced copies of Weguelin on ERA, Blight's The French Sports Car Revolution or Nixon's Racing with the David Brown Aston Martins. You won't find many cheap The Certain Sounds. And my Autocourse collection is stalled waiting for 1974-75 to dip below three figures... Autocourse apart, though, I guess these books are scarce because there aren't many of them and enthusiasts are hanging on to them and fighting for them.

On the other hand, prices for some good but not essential books are a lot more affordable (I've picked up a lot of nice but inessential stuff for £5-£10 that was floating around the £20 mark a couple of years ago).

It's also good that welcome new editions have torn the behind out of some book prices -- people who were hoarding the original edition of Excellence Was Expected or The Ford That Beat Ferrari and cackling are probably laughing on the other side of their faces now. There are still bargains to be had, the 99p Pace Motor Racing Directory for instance ;)

#1461 bradbury west

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 21:34

[QUOTE]Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]

enthusiasts are hanging on to them and fighting for them.

QUOTE]

So that means we are all still waiting for bargain copies of Simon Moore's "The Immortal 2.9" to emerge from hiding.? Any word on the rumour that it is being re-issued?

BTW Pete, Nice to see you have a quoted mention with TNF and Atlas is this quarter's VSCC Bulletin. Karl Ludvigsen has a piece on restoration ,appropriate or otherwise, and quotes your views. Not sure I agree with KL's view on the restoration of the ex Poore Alfa, but we have been there before. I have not seen the car as it is now, but I saw it after the Mayman auction, when it was at Mr Wheatcroft's premises.

Patina and atmosphere and originality?; you could shovel it up and bag it, it was so good. But I have said that before.

RL

#1462 Graham Gauld

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:24

Simon is at present working on the update of the 2.9 book but he has not told me of a publication date yet.

#1463 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 09:44

Mid 1970s Autocourses sell for £60-80 on ebay although you still see dealers listing theirs at £250 and hoping for a bid. They don't get one of course.

The 1960s ones are going for good prices: I saw a 61/62 go for £310 and a 65/66 go for £450. But the 1980s ones go for a song: I saw a 84/85 sell for £24 after a fight!

Ebay is having a major impact on prices and really demonstrating the effect of supply and demand. Specialist dealers might want to ignore that but their customers won't.

Allen

#1464 dretceterini

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 11:28

Originally posted by mark f1
My Georgano fell out of the cupboard onto my head 3 weeks ago....about a 3 foot drop....that hurt.



Not quite as bad as dropping the 3 volume Alfa 8c2300 set by Simon Moore on your toe :(

#1465 philippe charuest

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 16:16

Originally posted by Allen Brown


Ebay is having a major impact on prices and really demonstrating the effect of supply and demand. Specialist dealers might want to ignore that but their customers won't.

Allen

i dont . just bought the georgano encyclopedia of motor sport for 15$/8£

#1466 Geza Sury

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 18:05

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Come out of Motor Books and turn left, walk to the end of the alley and turn right up Charing Cross Road. Walk for about five minutes (ish) and Foyle's in on your left.

Allen

I'm back form London. I had a great time there apart from the unusually cold weather :

I visited but Motor Books and Foyle's as well as several other bookshops. I'm impressed with Foyle's, because they have a large selection of motor sport books and the environment is nice, but I must say Motor Books is pile of crap. They shop is not just waaaay to small, but the place is untidy as well. The other problem is that they only have a small percentage of the books and videos that they advertise on their website. I had the intention of buying the new Niki Lauda book by Pierre Menard and Jacques Vassal, but I was told they were sold out, so I came away empty handed.

Talking of Menard, I must bring the attention of you that Motor Books are now selling the Great Encyclopedia of Formula 1 for a mere 20 quid, which is well worth that price.

Eventually I didn't purchase a single book during my visit in London. The biggest temptation was this book which I found at Harrod's(!) for 15 quid. In the end I gave it a miss.

#1467 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 23:02

Originally posted by Geza Sury
I must say Motor Books is pile of crap. They shop is not just waaaay to small, but the place is untidy as well.

I think they prefer to be thought of as idiosyncratic!

Admittedly I've not been there for some years, but it always used to be so stuffed full that there was no room for it to be untidy: everything spine-on and not a jacket in sight! The reason it's so small is that retail rents in central London are punitively high: they need to fill the place to the rafters just to survive. And it's possible that the owners of Cecil Court may increase them again - the shops there are worried, I believe.

Shame you didn't make it out to Chaters: a totally different experience.

#1468 petefenelon

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 00:05

Originally posted by Geza Sury


Eventually I didn't purchase a single book during my visit in London. The biggest temptation was this book which I found at Harrod's(!) for 15 quid. In the end I gave it a miss.


Hmmm, you were nearly robbed. I got my copy for 5.99. In fact, I have another copy of it that I got as part of a job-lot of books that included some that I wanted!

You weren't robbed in terms of quality though - it's a very nice book with great pics and a lot of interesting text - but it rapidly started turning up in overstock/remainder shops!

Talking of bargains, Amazon were doing Mark Hughes' Speed Addicts very cheaply a while back - I like the pictures a lot but it's too bitty to be a classic, and I want more words from Mark.

#1469 Bill Wagenblatt

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 21:14

Originally posted by petefenelon



It's also good that welcome new editions have torn the behind out of some book prices -- people who were hoarding the original edition of Excellence Was Expected or The Ford That Beat Ferrari and cackling are probably laughing on the other side of their faces now. There are still bargains to be had, the 99p Pace Motor Racing Directory for instance ;)


To me this assumes one is buying the books as an investment. Personally I purchase books that I want to read and enjoy, now and in the future. I mistakenly sold off a number of books about 15 years ago and immediately regretted it and have not sold a single one since. The books I have now (500+) I intent to retain them long enough so that my children have to figure out what to do with them.

I would no sooner consider selling my leather bound first edition of Excellence was Expected that I would any other volume. When the new edition was published I promptly order it and have it next to the earlier edition on my bookshelf. So fluctuating market prices are not an issue for me.

Bill

#1470 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 21:27

I thought it was more about the affordability of second-hand books that we need for our research.

I have never seen my collection as an investment. More as a fire hazard.

Allen

#1471 petefenelon

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 21:44

Originally posted by Bill Wagenblatt


To me this assumes one is buying the books as an investment. Personally I purchase books that I want to read and enjoy, now and in the future. I mistakenly sold off a number of books about 15 years ago and immediately regretted it and have not sold a single one since. The books I have now (500+) I intent to retain them long enough so that my children have to figure out what to do with them.

I would no sooner consider selling my leather bound first edition of Excellence was Expected that I would any other volume. When the new edition was published I promptly order it and have it next to the earlier edition on my bookshelf. So fluctuating market prices are not an issue for me.

Bill


Good - you're a true enthusiast, not a speculator. People who buy books that belong in the hands of enthusiasts just to lock them away and deprive people of the chance to use them deserve every price crash that happens.

#1472 philippe charuest

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 22:06

http://cgi.ebay.ca/A...1QQcmdZViewItem
AMILCAR Gilles Fournier !! does anybody know that book ,first time i see it , i wonder if theres some other book like that on the delage.salmson,roland pilain talbot .and company

#1473 PRD

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 17:44

DCN- Any news on when BRM Vol 3 is going to be published ?

regards

Paul

#1474 Penword

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 19:27

There is a listing on ebay for a first edition copy of The Cruel Sport (published in 1963), priced at $12.99 (US).

Can anyone recommend this as a purchase?

Thanks

#1475 philippe charuest

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 19:58

its a good price ,worth it so far but wouldnt bid more then 25$ theres a lot of those book even the 63 edition on the market

#1476 bradbury west

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 22:08

Originally posted by philippe charuest
yes its sad that theres no real good book on the formula 2 history on the ( 1000c 64-66 period ) and the (67-71 1600cc period ) and why not the 2 liter period , its also true for the formula three i know theres a book done by B.Cowdrey on the screamers (any report on it cause the book is a bit expensive ?) ) but theres no book on the 1600cc 71 -74 period



Looking for something else I came on to the Editions Palmier site. There are some useful titles there, incl a two volume book by Jurg Dubler on the 1000cc f3 from 64/70, plus some f2 stuff. Take a look. Also a good choice on French marques.

RL

#1477 red stick

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 16:41

Amazon mailed my copy of Argetsinger's Walt Hansgen bio this morning. Does anyone have any insight on when Toly's Ghost will be released? Levy is notoriously slow in updating his website, but the last promise :) was for mid-March.

#1478 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 08:06

In the book titled 'Adventures of a Gentleman's Gentleman' page 352 reveals that Kathryn Eccles always enjoyed fast cars and the company of the men that drove them. Such an interest led to her regular attendance at motor-racing events and trips to continental Grand Prix.............
her sights were set on that arguably most handsome and charismatic of British racing drivers, Jim Clark. As a shy and diffident Scot he must have presented quite a challenge........... they began an affair that was to last until his untimely death.
Searching BB for mention of her maiden name and also as Kate Vestey comes up zero.

#1479 KJJ

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 09:27

Kathryn Eccles married Lord Vestey in 1970. She must have had some motor sport connection as she is listed as attending James Hunt's memorial service. I see Kate Eccles does get a mention in the Eric Dymock book "Jim Clark, Tribute to a Champion"

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#1480 dretceterini

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 14:57

A new book on Gilco is comming out late 2007, written by Martino Colombo, the head of the company..

#1481 jde

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 04:59

Originally posted by red stick
Does anyone have any insight on when Toly's Ghost will be released? Levy is notoriously slow in updating his website, but the last promise :) was for mid-March.


Last I read, it was at the printers, and was due to be shipped next month. The "public debut" is to be the Walter Mitty at Road Atlanta late in the month.

Some of the sordid details are on the splash page at Burt's site:

http://www.lastopenroad.com/

-jde

#1482 green-blood

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 12:21

hey people, how much is it worth stretching to for Mr Weguelins ERA bible... and yes I know ther is one up for sale on Ebay right now ;)

#1483 petefenelon

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 16:49

Originally posted by green-blood
hey people, how much is it worth stretching to for Mr Weguelins ERA bible... and yes I know ther is one up for sale on Ebay right now ;)


Good slipcased copies usually seem to change hands for between £175 and £200. I've seen ratty copies go for under £150 but not much. It's one of the "one day" books on my list. It is an exquisite book, although whether it's "worth" the thick end of 200 quid depends on your perspective.

#1484 green-blood

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 11:40

grand so... all seems to be ok then... I hope the seller hasnt seen this!!! :drunk:

#1485 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 14:10

Originally posted by green-blood
grand so... all seems to be ok then... I hope the seller hasnt seen this!!! :drunk:


I´ve seen this on ebay - definitely worth the current price. I have got a copy of this book a few months ago, also on ebay, for GBP 130.
Get it ! :up:

#1486 philippe charuest

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 18:10

is there any good book on the history of the indy 500. i saw a book "500 miles to go" by al bloemker published in the sixties is it good

#1487 ensign14

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 18:32

Bloemker's book pissed me off because almost all of it is in reported speech. There is no way Bloemker can know what de Palma said to de Paolo in a private meeting or whatever. My historical sensibilities bristle at that. But for information and a good yarn it's OK.

The best I think are the Jack Fox ones, but they're expensive and my love for them comes from the fact that they pander to the statto in me - photos of every single car ever in the 500 (with a few exceptions), a good proportion of the DNQs, index of all drivers even to have tried, detailed boxscore of car specs/sponsors/chassis manufacturers &c, mugshots of leading drivers and a potted summary of each race. Alas unlikely to be updated past 1995 given Tony George's disgraceful Nazi treatment of Carl Hungness (publisher of said magnum opus).

Rick Popely did something similar which is more widely available now and is also very good. Lots of colour.

#1488 red stick

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 13:02

Rick Popely's Indianapolis 500 Chronicle is perhaps the best existing one volume treatment of the subject, with a short synopsis of each race, thumbnail photos of the starting grid (and the pace car!), and several sidebars on various topics. And that's about it; there really is no second-best book to recommend. I hadn't really thought about it but open wheel racing in this country really needs a Greg Fielden, the man who dug through all the NASCAR info and produced both an excellent multi-volume history and the best single volume on the subject, NASCAR Chronicle.

Incidently, the Argetsinger biography of Walt Hansgen is very, very good. It's 378 pages of text broken into 132 chapters, which at first seemed a bit odd but makes for a brisk read. There's an appendix detailing Hansgen's races and a generous number of black and white photos, with some color, and frankly not very good color (must not be much in the archives on Hansgen, as opposed to Hill, Gurney, Foyt, Jones, etc.), confined to a section near the center, and all up to what we expect from a book published by David Bull. I really didn't know much more about the man than what I'd read in some Ford racing histories and in The Unfair Advantage, where Mark Donohue speaks highly of him, so I'm learning quite a bit that's new and interesting. I'll let the other more knowledgeable sorts who populate this board speak to the accuracy but from my perspective, really an excellent book.

#1489 petefenelon

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 21:08

Just finished Tom Wheatcroft's biography - I started it but for various reasons (like, I forgot where I'd left it!) I didn't pick it up for a couple of weeks.

It's superb. It's everything you'd expect from Tom - covers his whole life in and out of racing, with his early life, war service, adventures in the building trade and so on before we get to car collecting and the struggle to buy Donington and get his Grand Prix. Everything is told with self-deprecating humour and a real passion for life and racing. Oh, and he's not afraid to admit that many of his cars are far too fast for him -- and what happens when they get away from him.

It's a larger-than-life book by a man who's carved his own distinctive path through life. Difficult not to like, and as with all the best autobiographies, some of the best stories are the ones Tom tells against himself, of deals he never quite managed to make.

And if you thought Kelly's Heroes was fiction - well, Tom was there before you. A lot of the money he used to start up his business came from blowing up a bank in Germany!

The material on Wheatcroft as a front-line racing team is superb, with a major focus on his relationship with Derek Bell and of course with Roger Williamson. That's the heart of the book and powerful stuff it is indeed.

Tom still reckons he's got an E-type Auto Union and not a Sokol, mind -- but there's some fascinating stories of "liberating" bits of cars from behind the Iron Curtain...

#1490 Allan Lupton

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 08:45

Originally posted by Ralf Pickel


I´ve seen this on ebay - definitely worth the current price. I have got a copy of this book a few months ago, also on ebay, for GBP 130.
Get it ! :up:


It went for £126 + £20 post: seems to have achieved a level.

Trouble with eBay can be that you don't know when people will look at it. I've got something on at present where no-one has taken an interest, but in the couple of weeks before two identical items were sold with a total of about five bidders. i.e. at least three bidders didn't get one and should (you would think) be bidding.

#1491 green-blood

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 10:11

yeah and opne of them was me, who was stuck on the motorway and didnt get home on time to bid again....darn,

that petefenlon chap outbid me on something else substantial yesterday in the same cicumstances too :evil: oh well I'll just bide my time..... of course if anyone wants to relinquish a copy that 130 level would be on offer!!!!

#1492 petefenelon

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 10:17

Originally posted by Allan Lupton


It went for £126 + £20 post: seems to have achieved a level.

Trouble with eBay can be that you don't know when people will look at it. I've got something on at present where no-one has taken an interest, but in the couple of weeks before two identical items were sold with a total of about five bidders. i.e. at least three bidders didn't get one and should (you would think) be bidding.


I spotted that one - the day after I got one for £160 + £8 P&P. Still cheaper than any of the dealer ones.

#1493 green-blood

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 10:43

fear not I'm going to find one in a jumble sale in its plastic wrapper for €5.... maybe :cool:

#1494 mark f1

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:47

Anyone know of any good motor book shops in Germany, with English books?

Thanks
Mark

#1495 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 13:46

Originally posted by mark f1
Anyone know of any good motor book shops in Germany, with English books?

Thanks
Mark


Very difficult in Germany - I still have not found a good motor book shop here, especially with english books.
I would recommend especially Chaters for mail order anytime - even better to go to their shop. Get a EUR 29.- flight to London, it is worth doing it .;)

#1496 David McKinney

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 15:45

http://www.schroederweise.de/vita2.php

#1497 mark f1

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 09:53

Thanks.

#1498 Coppa Sila

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 17:13

A good reading on the history of a famous Italian competition,

http://www.cronospri...ppaSilaBook.htm

#1499 Dave Ware

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:12

Well, I finally got around to buying and reading "The Last Open Road." A very good read, and a very good novel (not just a very good racing novel, but a very good novel, period.) Reminds me of Mark Twain. Good job, Mr. Levy.

I think I'll give myself a couple of years, then get "Montezuma's Ferrari." Don't want to rush the good stuff.

Dave

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#1500 philippe charuest

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 17:29

Burt "bs" Levy was at mont tremblant 2 or 3 years ago and i bought "the last open road " and i agree its a book who is not without litterary quality , later i bought the other two on the net. strictly about the plot the second one "the montezuma ferrari" is the best but all of three are a good read .