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The book thread: In memory of Pete Fenelon


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#1901 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 21:35

Originally posted by Mark Ballard
Hi,
Whilst looking on ebay, I saw what appears to be a new book on Austin 7s and their racing history. Does anyone know anything about it as it doesn't appear to be listed on any of the usual booksellers websites ?

Thank you


New one on me! Looks good from the sample pages, but one wonders what the RRP is? There's no "buy it now" option, just a £35.00 start. Ten quid postage seems a bit steep too!

Originally posted by Mark Ballard
As an aside, as Alan, I have also had no problems from any books I have bought from the US, Australia or South Africa through Abebooks.com

Me neither. In fact I once got a very apologetic note enclosing a $10 bill from some unfortunate soul who'd spilled his coffee on a book he was packing for me! :lol:

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#1902 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 00:18

After posting the above I wandered out for quiet pint or three of Old Speckled Hen, accompanied by the December issues of Octane, Motor Sport and Classic & Sports Car. The third of those has a review of the book in question and also gives a link to their website:

http://www.austintwincam.co.uk/

£35 + £10 postage appears to be the going rate. No retail sales - direct only.

WB says:

... this one is something no-one who appreciates how well and comprehensively the gallant 750cc cars from Birmingham took on other makes, can happily be without.



I think I'm about to blow another 45 quid .... :rolleyes:

#1903 sterling49

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 21:54

I have just added two books to my collection, "Kings of the Nurburgring" and "Scarlet Passion".
Both purchased from Amazon after looking at another well known motorsport book site, Amazon had much better prices, some 20-25% cheaper ;)

The Nurburgring book is excellent, describing the races and drivers that truly excelled on the track which, as most TNF members will know, includes Hill(both P and G), Clark,Surtees,Stewart and the guy that was so amazing to read about in the mid '60's, Jacky Ickx. Great photos, the real disadvantage of a book like this though, is(as with Nick Mason's Pink Floyd book) it becomes difficult to read in bed because of its size and weight!

Scarlet Passion is just a very good read, reliving the days of Ferraris most beautiful and intoxicating cars, which visited places such as the Targa Florio, I can just imagine Nino Vaccarella pushing his P4 around there on the limits, exhaust bellowing off the houses! The book really brings back the spirit of the World Sportscar championship then.

I am now getting my "book list" ready for Xmas, and was particularly looking for another book on GT40 (other than Ronnie Spains) any ideas? :rolleyes:

#1904 petefenelon

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 22:50

Originally posted by sterling49

I am now getting my "book list" ready for Xmas, and was particularly looking for another book on GT40 (other than Ronnie Spains) any ideas? :rolleyes:


The Ford That Beat Ferrari - fantastic photography and an interesting read in parallel with Ronnie Spain's book as it goes team by team rather than chassis by chassis.

A minor Amazon annoyance - I saw a couple of copies of Winged Sports Cars... in Motor Books on Saturday, but Amazon say I won't get mine until January.

Boo hiss.

#1905 sterling49

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 23:00

Originally posted by petefenelon


The Ford That Beat Ferrari - fantastic photography and an interesting read in parallel with Ronnie Spain's book as it goes team by team rather than chassis by chassis.

A minor Amazon annoyance - I saw a couple of copies of Winged Sports Cars... in Motor Books on Saturday, but Amazon say I won't get mine until January.

Boo hiss.


Thanks for that, management has instructions now for Xmas! Amazon have a habit of doing the delay thing, I do know it was delayed, but I waited over a year for the Pulse DVD :confused:

#1906 petefenelon

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 23:21

Originally posted by sterling49


Thanks for that, management has instructions now for Xmas! Amazon have a habit of doing the delay thing, I do know it was delayed, but I waited over a year for the Pulse DVD :confused:


I'm assuming you've got The Certain Sound and that Racing In The Rain is on the list too? (Haven't read the latter yet, it's on the same Amazon order as Winged Sports Cars...).

#1907 Julian Roberts

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:54

Racing in the rain is a really enjoyable book which I would recommend to anyone; but especially those with an even passing interest in GT40/Mirage, Porsche 917 or just sports car racing of the 60's & 70's.

I read it during a weeks commute to London - no sleeping on the train at all that week. Certainly one of the best books on the subject. I do own The Certain Sound, but still haven't got around to reading it yet simply because of it's size.

Also, Vic Elford's autobiography carries my full recommendation. That was consumed even quicker than Racing in the Rain. A very easy read with a great colour section. My favourite picture being one of Vic driving a Daytona during the Tour de France. He appears to have just nerfed a 911 out of the way in a one sided battle for the apex - fantastic.

Buy them both !

I also had Winged Sportscars and Enduring Technology on order with Amazon but cancelled the order (rather petulantly) when I saw it was already in the shops. I s'pose I'll still buy it from Amazon as I won't find it anywhere cheaper.

Finally, what wouldn't I give for a book on 1970's Group 5 racing ?!

#1908 Adam F

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 16:34

I have just received my copy of "A Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" by Richard Page (TNF's own RAP), which has recently been published by the Formula One Register's St Leonards Press.

This is a truly fascinating book, covering every type of motor sport at the London venue, from 1890 to 2000.
Richard deserves every congratulation for producing this important work, with help acknowledged from several TNFers.
The two-volume book is in the same format as the previous F1R work on Goodwood by Robert Barker, published a few years ago. I believe only 150 copies have been produced, so, as with Barker's book, it will soon become a rarity, despite its £200 price.
More details can be obtained from enquiries@formulaoneregister.com

#1909 roger ellis

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 16:49

Originally posted by petefenelon


.

A minor Amazon annoyance - I saw a couple of copies of Winged Sports Cars... in Motor Books on Saturday, but Amazon say I won't get mine until January.

Boo hiss.


Pete, they have been giving me the runaround for 6 weeks now despite many e-mails & 'phone calls. First they said publication had been delayed and then that the book was in stock but they were not allowed to release it ( ! ). I noticed last week that they have listed the book title incorrectly - "... Enduring Technology" not "Enduring Innovation" and suggested this might be the cause of the problem, I also gave them the ISBN number, I am still waiting for a definitive response.

Perhaps we should form an action commitee?

#1910 petefenelon

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 17:15

Originally posted by roger ellis


Pete, they have been giving me the runaround for 6 weeks now despite many e-mails & 'phone calls. First they said publication had been delayed and then that the book was in stock but they were not allowed to release it ( ! ). I noticed last week that they have listed the book title incorrectly - "... Enduring Technology" not "Enduring Innovation" and suggested this might be the cause of the problem, I also gave them the ISBN number, I am still waiting for a definitive response.

Perhaps we should form an action commitee?


You know, I thought I was going mad because I was sure it was "Innovation" and then saw "Technology" on Amazon....

Those very nice and very reliable people at play.com are listing it for 67 quid + free P&P, but have it as "out of stock". I may switch my order, after all it's still a decent saving!


#1911 ReWind

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 18:50

Jean-Paul Delsaux seems to have started a sequence of books eventually forming the "Chroniques du Sport Automobile Mondial".
Maybe someone can translate this French text.

#1912 sterling49

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 20:36

Originally posted by petefenelon


I'm assuming you've got The Certain Sound and that Racing In The Rain is on the list too? (Haven't read the latter yet, it's on the same Amazon order as Winged Sports Cars...).


I have the JW book on my list it's getting longer and more expensive by the reply! :rolleyes:

Soo many good books to read, so much work to do :eek:

#1913 sterling49

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 20:37

Originally posted by Julian Roberts
Racing in the rain is a really enjoyable book which I would recommend to anyone; but especially those with an even passing interest in GT40/Mirage, Porsche 917 or just sports car racing of the 60's & 70's.


Finally, what wouldn't I give for a book on 1970's Group 5 racing ?!


Will order the JW book pronto! Agree totally about Group 5 in 1970 :wave:

#1914 Gary Davies

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 08:59

I've just secured this Posted Image on eBay for A$17.85. I think that's circa £7.20 or US$13.70.

My usual book search website has them from A$36 to A$278 and none located in Oz.

I think I've done good. :cool:

#1915 Alan Cox

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:15

I think you've "done good" too, Vanwall

#1916 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 18:31

US dealers finally seem to be waking up to the fact that there's a market for those Clymer books! I got a copy of that one about 3 years ago for (IIRC) $10 US! I paid much the same for Molter's "German Racing Cars and Drivers" which goes for ludicrous prices in the UK and now seems unavailable anywhere for less than $40 US.

#1917 Lotus23

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 15:33

Chris Economaki's Let 'Em all Go! is one terrific read. I'm about halfway through it, and am having trouble putting it down long enough to post here.

This guy can really tell a story, and the earliest of them go back to 1927 when, at age six, he witnessed his first race -- on the Atlantic City board track.

The best US$30 I've spent in a long time.

#1918 dretceterini

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 00:46

Originally posted by Vanwall
I've just secured this Posted Image on eBay for A$17.85. I think that's circa £7.20 or US$13.70.

My usual book search website has them from A$36 to A$278 and none located in Oz.

I think I've done good. :cool:


Congrats. It's very difficult to find a bargain on e-bay anymore...

#1919 RA Historian

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 02:30

Originally posted by Lotus23
Chris Economaki's Let 'Em all Go! is one terrific read. .


You should talk to the guy! He was at Topeka last month for the SCCA Runoffs and spent most of his time in the press room. (He is 86, afer all!) He told one story after another the whole three days. What a font of knowledge. Can you imagine how many races the fellow has seen since he saw his first? Just amazing.

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#1920 helioseism

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 02:30

Just received a flyer from Gary Doyle advertising a box set of reprints of the 1968 children's books Jimmy Murphy And The White Duesenbergand Nuvolari and the Alfa Romeo. Interesting enough, but the real gem in my mind is the small print, which states:

"His (Doyle's) next book Carlo Demand and Automobile Racing 1898-1956 will be published by Racemaker Press and be out in Mid 2007. Inquiries regarding Racemaker Press should be sent to Joseph Freeman at 121 Mount Vernon St. Boston, MA 02108."

Doyle also states that his publishing company, Golden Age Books, is handling the fulfillment for Racemaker Press for the box set. The address for Golden Age Books is 5013 Bella Collina St., Oceanside, CA 92056 USA, phone 1-760-945-0211 or 1-866-600-6973, fax: 1-760-945-4988.

Sounds interesting to me!

#1921 petefenelon

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 16:58

A sort of collective mini-review here of the Vic Elford and John Horsman books, since they're so similar in form (I think David Bull has hit on a good format for presenting these memoirs in, but the American spelling does grate a little particularly given Horsman's very English style).

Vic's book is conversational, anecdotal, modest, and utterly compelling - it's only when it's all laid out in front of you that you really appreciate how far Vic got in the sport in such a short spell, and how many people he worked with and impressed during his relatively short spell near the top on the circuits. Plenty of dry, laconic wit and respect for his fellow competitors, an engaging, perceptive and highly entertaining read that really does convey the atmosphere particuarly of rallying and sports car racing.

John Horsman's is a little more discursive and analytical, as befits an engineer; it's a fascinating intermediary between Wyer's The Certain Sound and driver memoirs and race reports in that Horsman provides a lot of the technicalities, the why of winning and losing races. Several drivers emerge as real heroes and there are some surprising favourites (Lucien Bianchi for example). There's quite a lot of deep technical material and some quite astonishing tales, it's hard not to think that the Mirage farce at Le Mans in '82 knocked the stuffing out of John's enthusiasm for motor racing...

Both books have excellent selections of photography, are handsomely presented, and sensibly priced. Highly recommended to any sports car fans.

#1922 jimmyc

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 18:19

This is an offbeat question, but maybe someone here can give me an answer. I own a copy of Heck's Great Auto Races' It is in excellent conditon except that one section of pages is bound incorrectly. As a result a few pages are out oof order and upside down. Would it be possble to have this corrected? Woud it be worthwhile given a current price range of $200-$300 for the book? Thanks for any help you can give me.

#1923 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 18:57

Originally posted by jimmyc
This is an offbeat question, but maybe someone here can give me an answer. I own a copy of Heck's Great Auto Races' It is in excellent conditon except that one section of pages is bound incorrectly. As a result a few pages are out oof order and upside down. Would it be possble to have this corrected? Woud it be worthwhile given a current price range of $200-$300 for the book? Thanks for any help you can give me.

Any competent bookbinder should be able to that for you. However, it would mean completely dismantling the book, since the binder would have to cut into the spine in order to rectify the fault, removing and replacing the offending 'signature' and then re-sewing and retaping it. AFAIK, it's not possible to do this without also removing and replacing the endpapers (the thicker pages at front and back which fix the body of the book to the 'case' or hard covers) If the endpapers are illustrated then you'd probably lose those.

#1924 green-blood

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 21:53

harping back a bit to the debate about Menard's "great encyclopedia of F1", the 2004 revised edition was recommended, apparently remaindered in Borders.

Well I discovered that Borders have opened their first Irish outlet in the past month. So I made it my business to drop over. Said thome is now home safe and sound for 19.95 EURO, all in all I'm pretty happy with that, its not the definitive history but its great value at that price.

Bought an Amazon copy of "in it for the beer" the reprinted Gerry Marshall bio, what a fun delve that was

#1925 petefenelon

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 22:36

Originally posted by jimmyc
This is an offbeat question, but maybe someone here can give me an answer. I own a copy of Heck's Great Auto Races' It is in excellent conditon except that one section of pages is bound incorrectly. As a result a few pages are out oof order and upside down. Would it be possble to have this corrected? Woud it be worthwhile given a current price range of $200-$300 for the book? Thanks for any help you can give me.


I paid less than half that for a nice copy of Helck this year - it seems to change hands for 60-80 quid on Ebay at the moment. Your 'strange' copy might actually be worth more in that state, if you buy for investment rather than reading!

#1926 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 23:54

I received my copy of 'Lost Generation' yesterday.

So far I've got as far as the end of chapter 14.

I can fully endorse all the comments so far - it is a superb book. I've noticed just one or two typos and (perhaps - needs research!) just one error of fact.

I think the next few chapters might hurt ... :cry:

#1927 roger ellis

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 10:34

Has the Autocourse bubble burst or did someone bag a bargain?

A complete 25 year run from 1980, all with DJs, has recently been sold on E-Bay for £450.00.

Seems cheap to me.

#1928 ensign14

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 10:45

I go for "laziness"; the 1990s ones are generally dirt cheap but 1994 in particular could fetch £150 easily. Had the seller split them up they would have got a lot more, people who would be willing to pay £75 for a 1983 will not want (or be able) to pay £500 for a whole bunch.

I once benefitted from that - someone selling a run of Clymers from 1953 to about 1963 (so including the 2 ultra-rare ones) that I got for a bit more than the price of a 1958 one. But I now have some duplicates...

#1929 McTaff

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 18:55

Our Epynt book was reviewed in Autosport today, any feedback appreciated. :)

#1930 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 19:08

I have just - reluctantly - come to the end of 'Lost Generation'.

Why "reluctantly"?

Because - believe it or not - I didn't want it to end, simply because it's so superbly written. Despite knowing what was going to happen, it held my attention to the final word. I can't remember when I was last so thoroughly absorbed in a book. I can't add anything to Pete's review, apart from mentioning that the book has an excellent and fairly dispassionate analysis of the circumstances behind the air crash which killed Tony, Graham, Tony, Ray, Andy and Terry. I had forgotten that Ronnie Peterson would - all things being equal - have been on that plane too. And there's more than one tragic irony revealed for the first time about that flight - I shan't spoil that for those who have yet to read this masterwork. As ensign14 said, this book should be a set text: it is simply wonderful. No more, no less :up:

(Although I have to say that the proofreader must have got a bit tired by the end, since I spotted more typos in the last six chapters than in the first fourteen (but that's just me being pedantic!))

O/T:
One thing which did mystify me was Nigel Roebuck's assertion on page 226 that "in his heyday at Ferrari [Chris Amon] had been one of the few men capable of challenging Jim Clark on equal terms." That's not an interpretation I'd put on late 1967 and early 1968 :confused:

#1931 bradbury west

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 19:13

This came through on e mail from Gary, the main man in sales AFIK, at Veloce Publishing, presumably to all customers. I have bought at this discount previously, and the delivery service is first class.

........................

Season's greetings from the team at Veloce.

PS: The offer applies to gift vouchers too: what a great present!

http://www.veloce.co.uk

We'll keep this message simple. From November 17th until December 21st
you can buy any Veloce Publishing book, or books, at a personal
discount of 40%. Yes, 40%! You know this is a fantastic offer, and there
are nearly 200 superb-quality books on just about every automotive
subject to choose from. So, whether the books are for you or your loved
ones, take advantage of our Christmas present to you before we come to
our senses and this offer ends! Just quote wp103 when ordering online
or by 'phone.

........................

Just thought you might like to know
usual disclaimers.

Roger Lund.

#1932 bradbury west

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 21:54

Originally posted by roger ellis


Pete, they have been giving me the runaround for 6 weeks now despite many e-mails & 'phone calls. First they said publication had been delayed and then that the book was in stock but they were not allowed to release it ( ! ). I noticed last week that they have listed the book title incorrectly - "... Enduring Technology" not "Enduring Innovation" and suggested this might be the cause of the problem, I also gave them the ISBN number, I am still waiting for a definitive response.

Perhaps we should form an action commitee?


I really do not know why you bother with them. I have met a similar inability to honour orders in the past with non-motor-racing related titles, but both I would regard as a specialist subject, finally saying they were not available, one of which I picked up off the shelf later in Barnes and Noble.

I ordered my Winged Sports Cars..... last Friday afternoon from Chaters, and it arrived along with the John Horsman tome on Wednesday morning via DHL. I cannot imagine that you put up with Amazon-style service with other purchases, least of all for a few quid difference, when it something that you really want. Each to his own, I suppose.

The Wimpffen book is sublime, a perfect companion to Open Roads.

It has brilliant photos, and many of marques/models not often seen, eg Lancia Aurelia conv on the Targa, Ginetta G12 on the Circuito del Mugello, various etceterinis, the mid engined Scarab, Hansgen up, logoed as the Zerex Special, Gurney in the Lotus 19J, David Good in his 1.9ltr BRM engined Lotus 23 on a Swiss hillclimb etc etc. too many to pick from, fantastic content.

I was confused at first by the caption on P16 for the full page picture on P17, which describes McLaren's development of his own marque via the Cooper Oldsmobile at the 64 TT. I did not recognise either McLaren as the driver in either of the 2 cars shown , perceiving one to be a Lotus 19 on wires, and the other a BT8, neither being the Cooper Zerex Fubar.

It was only when I got to P143 and looked alongside the big photo of J Clark in a 30 that I saw a miniature of the shot on P17, which details the cars as a 19 with Coundley up, and the BT8 with Roger Nathan aboard. It is a pity as I would have welcomed a good period shot of McLaren in the Zerex.

Roger Lund.

#1933 D-Type

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 22:28

The latest (ie December) Motor Sport has a two page shot of the start of the 1964 TT with McLaren in the Fubar in centre shot.

#1934 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 23:10

I thought that Fubar was the name given to the Zerex Special when it was raced by Penske as a single seater with full-width bodywork and Climax FPF. By the time of the TT, McLaren had fitted his own frame and an Oldsmobile engine. It was known as a Cooper-Oldsmobile, probably for contractual reasons, but it is best regarded as the prototype of the McLaren M1. to refer to it as a Zerex Spl or Fubar is very misleading.

#1935 bradbury west

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:12

Originally posted by D-Type
The latest (ie December) Motor Sport has a two page shot of the start of the 1964 TT with McLaren in the Fubar in centre shot.


Please see posts 1762 and 1791 in Motor Sport thread, plus David Beard's posting.

RL

#1936 bradbury west

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 01:40

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I thought that Fubar was the name given to the Zerex Special when it was raced by Penske as a single seater with full-width bodywork and Climax FPF. By the time of the TT, McLaren had fitted his own frame and an Oldsmobile engine. It was known as a Cooper-Oldsmobile, probably for contractual reasons, but it is best regarded as the prototype of the McLaren M1. to refer to it as a Zerex Spl or Fubar is very misleading.


I have not checked on the Zerex thread, but to some of us the acronym will always be associated with the car. AFIK it was simply an informal derogatory soubriquet given to it rather than a formalised title.

In terms of the car being re-framed and re-bodied how can it then be called, or regarded as, a Cooper other than for starting money, but Bruce would have been a big enough draw in his own right, certainly at Goodwood? We are back to the realms of Tipo B Monoposto into Multi Union back into Tipo B Monoposto, surely? It must be quite a few steps away even from cars in the mould of Trigger's broom, 5 new heads and 3 new handles, but always the same model.

BTW, I thought the prototype M1A was as shown in Georgano. I know it smacks of semantics, but forerunner/precursor yes for the Cooper Olds, prototype hardly, but, of course, it really all depends on which car is in the photograph which was intended to be on P17, not the 19 and BT8 in its place.

The Zerex Special title was later carried by the mid-engined Scarab, of which Wimpffen's book shows an excellent shot, with Hansgen at the wheel IIRC, so the Zerex bit is fluid, but Penske's Cooper-derived car was originally known as that so it is an easy mechanism for identifying a car without further explanation .qv Vauxhalls Big/Baby Bertha and Old Nail, or BRM Old Faithful.

The point which I was endeavouring to make diplomatically was that since the caption was intended to refer to McLaren and the Cooper Olds, the full page photograph is completely incorrect, not the sort of thing expected in such a publication

Roger Lund.

#1937 RA Historian

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:55

I do not know how the term Fubar got to be associated with the Penske Cooper Zerex Special. It is in error.

There was indeed a Fubar Special, but it was not the Penske car. There were two separate Fubar Specials. One was in the early 50s on the West Coast, driven by a chap named Dunbar, while the other came out of Indiana in the early 1960s and if I recall correctly, was driven by Chuck Rickert. They were in no way related to the Penske car, and the Penske car was never referred to as the Fubar.

To recap: Penske took the wrecked Cooper T-53 of Briggs Cunningham, had it rebuilt, and had it fitted with an enveloping sports car body built by Durlite. He procured sponsorship from DuPont and it advertised the DuPont anti freeze, Zerex. Roger, being one of the first to use commercial sponsorship, entered the car as the Zerex Special. Won Riverside, Laguna Seca, and Puerto Rico in the fall of 1962. Had the car rebuilt to a true two seater in 1963 when it was owned and run by the Mecom Racing Team. Won Marlboro and Cumberland SCCA Nationals, and then won the Brands Hatch Guards Trophy Race. Car was sold after 1963 to Bruce, whose efforts with the car have been chronicled above.

Mecom retained Zerex sponsorship and had it on his cars for the next couple years. His various cars all had Zerex written on the flanks. They were not Zerex Specials, they were Zerex sponsored.

It is most convenient to refer to the Penske Cooper special as the Zerex Special. Nobody will quarrel with that. But it most definitely was NOT the Fubar!

#1938 Roger Clark

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 08:10

Originally posted by bradbury west




In terms of the car being re-framed and re-bodied how can it then be called, or regarded as, a Cooper other than for starting money, but Bruce would have been a big enough draw in his own right, certainly at Goodwood? We are back to the realms of Tipo B Monoposto into Multi Union back into Tipo B Monoposto, surely? It must be quite a few steps away even from cars in the mould of Trigger's broom, 5 new heads and 3 new handles, but always the same model.

BTW, I thought the prototype M1A was as shown in Georgano. I know it smacks of semantics, but forerunner/precursor yes for the Cooper Olds, prototype hardly, but, of course, it really all depends on which car is in the photograph which was intended to be on P17, not the 19 and BT8 in its place.

Doug Nye, in his book on McLaren cars quoted Eoin Young: " It was also the Zerex Special, re-framed and re-engined but for various reasons Bruce decreed it should be known officially as the Cooper-Oldsmobile."

Doug adds: "Charles Cooper had never forgiven Jack Brabham for leaving to set up his own team, and now he regarded Bruce's extra-mural activities with ever-increasing suspicion, and Bruce had to protect his F1 drive..."

I would be quite happy to use the term forerunner or precursor rather than prototype, but I still think the car was more of a McLaren production than a Cooper or Zerex special.

Back onto the topic of this thread, Janos Wimpffen's books are as good as they come, but it is inevitable that mistakes creep in to a work of this size. On page 263 of "Open Roads and Front Engines" there is a picture bearing the caption: "At Goodwood in 1958 there were seventeen examples of rear-engined cars comprising thirteen Lotuses, three Elvas and a Lola."

#1939 Barry Boor

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 09:24

So which of those never had their engines at the back, Roger? :lol:

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#1940 David McKinney

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:45

Originally posted by RA Historian
I do not know how the term Fubar got to be associated with the Penske Cooper Zerex Special. It is in error......It is most convenient to refer to the Penske Cooper special as the Zerex Special. Nobody will quarrel with that. But it most definitely was NOT the Fubar!

Fubar was an acronym given by the McLaren team to the T53/Zerex Special when they first saw it, and widely used in UK publications at the time. I'm sure no-one was suggesting any connection to the earlier Fubar Specials.

#1941 bradbury west

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 12:54

many thanks to david McKinney for coming in to clarify that point, which is my own recollection. Until RAHistorian made the point I was unaware of any such Fubar Specials. i have checked in Pace and Brinkler and they only mention one, and then with such a paucity of column inches that it is not surprising that I was unaware of either of them.

The name for Penske's device as I understood it was not as the earlier specials. In '63 I was still a callow youth and regularly read the Autocar , Motor Sport and Autosport. In one of them the story went along the lines of David's version, but the car was a proper acronym, given as F.U.B.A.R, which for the more sensitive or less wordly at the time was described as meaning "Fouled Up........etc", so I have always associated it in upper case, as that was my only knowledge of the car in period and the memory logged it.

With regards to the comments about the Zerex connection I was aware of the nature of the product, hence my view that the situation was "fluid", clearly falling on stony ground. However, in my original post I cite the image in Wimpffen, page 151, but not quoted, showing Walt Hansgen in the Mecom Scarab carrying on its off side rear quarter, forward of the wheel, the legend "ZEREX SPECIAL" in upper case (I am not emphasising the point). Hence I quoted it. BTW I was delighted to se the car at Goodwood in '94.

Nowhere in my postings about the Wimpffen book will you see any suggestion that it is anything other than excellent, sublime in fact. However, in view of TNFers readiness to nitpick over issues such as car colour shades, lap times, grid positions, wheel sizes etc etc etc inter alia, let alone important things, I felt it worth noting that the full page image was not as described by the caption. I was not suggesting that the book or Wimpffen's efforts were not of the highest order. My bookshelves reflect my respect and admiration for all manner of authors of car books, from the better Palawan stuff right down to pamphlets, if it interests me.

However, even allowing for the inevitable E&OE notion, along with odd typos, it is reasonable to expect something like that not to be there, when stumping up the cost of such publications, whether full retail, Chater-discounted but delivered in 4 days, or internet-bought with promises of New Year delivery, but lowest price. IIRC wasn't it Karl Ludvigsen who published a title "Excellence was expected"?

For my part I am simply pleased to read the books and immerse myself in the atmosphereof halcyon days

Roger Lund.

#1942 sterling49

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 00:17

Just received my Epynt book and glanced at the photos which brought back many a memory of spectating at Dixies and Drovers in the dead of night with rain lashing down sideways, before management confiscated it :rolleyes: , as it is supposed to be a Xmas pressie.....looks great though, good reading over the Yuletide :clap:

#1943 D-Type

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 00:20

Originally posted by D-Type
The latest (ie December) Motor Sport has a two page shot of the start of the 1964 TT with McLaren in the Fubar in centre shot.

To clarify, Roger Lund mentioned a "good period shot of the Zerex" in the context of the 1964 TT. As I had the new Motor Sport to hand, I referred him to the picture of the start of the 1964 TT. The Motor Sport caption describes the cars as being 'Bruce McLaren's Cooper Xerex [sic] Special', 'Jimmy [Clark]'s Lotus 30' and 'the winning Graham Hill / Richie Ginther Ferrari 330P'.
I wanted Roger to understand which Zerex Special I was referring to so I used what I have always understood to be the period nickname given to the entity which can be described as the ex-Cunningham F1 Cooper T51 that Roger Penske rebuilt and re-engined as a 2.5 or 2.7 ltre Climax-engined two seater known as the Zerex Special that was very successful in US domestic races, that was later sold to Bruce McLaren who re-engined it with an Oldsmobile engine, rebuilt it and entered it as a Cooper-Oldsmobile. In this context, FUBAR was an acronym for 'Fouled' Up Beyond All Recognition.
I was unaware that the nickname related to any particular incarnation of the car. I was also
totally unaware that there was another car called the Fubar Special.

I apologise that my attempt to help someone has caused so much confusion.

I suggest we drop this topic and let the thread return to its original purpose, comments on books.

#1944 McTaff

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:38

Originally posted by sterling49
Just received my Epynt book and glanced at the photos which brought back many a memory of spectating at Dixies and Drovers in the dead of night with rain lashing down sideways, before management confiscated it :rolleyes: , as it is supposed to be a Xmas pressie.....looks great though, good reading over the Yuletide :clap:


So pleased it's not all roundy roundy on here, I was beginning to feel lonely.;)

#1945 PRD

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 10:37

Originally posted by McTaff


So pleased it's not all roundy roundy on here, I was beggining to feel lonely.;)



:eek:
thats a phrase I haven't seen since reading Custom Car in the 70's

#1946 bradbury west

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 10:57

Originally posted by D-Type
I was unaware that the nickname related to any particular incarnation of the car. I was also
totally unaware that there was another car called the Fubar Special.

I apologise that my attempt to help someone has caused so much confusion.

I suggest we drop this topic and let the thread return to its original purpose, comments on books.


With you all the way on that one, D Type. My clarifications were not directed at you, but as a means of explaining my understanding of the situation, and the origins of my understanding,and yours, which David McKinney kindly clarified, but which seemed to sit uneasily elsewhere.

Nuff said

No offence intended

Roger Lund.

PS My apologies for spelling David McKinney in lower case D earlier.

PPS I thought your note about the MS photo served to clarify my point about which incarnation the car was to which the caption in Wimpffen referred, in the absence of the relevant photograph.

RL

#1947 McTaff

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 11:36

Originally posted by PRD



:eek:
thats a phrase I haven't seen since reading Custom Car in the 70's


It must be my age, I certainly never took Custom Car!!! :rotfl:

#1948 sterling49

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 18:04

Originally posted by McTaff


So pleased it's not all roundy roundy on here, I was beginning to feel lonely.;)


Hi McTaff, I think you will find many of us like and appreciate both circuit racing and rallying, I personally was brought up with Brands Hatch, but especially after seeing Ari in his beaten up Ascona on the '75 Welsh International, I loved the Forest Racing! Oh, you will find Fred Gallagher posts here also :up:

#1949 McTaff

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 21:08

Originally posted by Fred Gallagher


I was given a copy of this book yesterday and it is superb. A thousand times better than I ever thought it would be. Excellent photographs and really high quality printing along with really interesting personal stories.

And tying in with the previous post, quite a lot of photographs of Tom Pryce with the Lancia Stratos and David Richards as co-driver!

Fred


Fred's a contributor in the book. Re. 1975 Welsh Rally, it was the first I watched, at night on a hairpin in Halfway Forest. Vatanen in the Ascona on his first visit and Roger Clark out for the first time in Cossack colours...........pure nostalgia. :drunk:

#1950 sterling49

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 22:15

Originally posted by McTaff


Fred's a contributor in the book. Re. 1975 Welsh Rally, it was the first I watched, at night on a hairpin in Halfway Forest. Vatanen in the Ascona on his first visit and Roger Clark out for the first time in Cossack colours...........pure nostalgia. :drunk:


And the RS1800 was a lovely sight and sounded even better with the BDA exhaust bouncing of the trees and into the sky, I think it was Brechfa when he appeared into view tail first.......full opposite lock and not a hair out of place :clap: :clap: :clap: A good guy taken all too early.

Remember the lime green Skodas? So ridiculous to look at, but seriously fast for 1,300's!

Sophia Gardens and real rallying, where are you? I am not a fan of the Scooby Do generation :rolleyes: