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The book thread: In memory of Pete Fenelon


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#151 petefenelon

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 13:55

Originally posted by dretceterini
Burt:

Check out www.editions-palmier.fr which is both a small French publisher and book store. Georgio Nada is both a book publisher (the biggest in car books in Italy), and has a reatil store called Libreria 'dell Automobile (see above posts for links). Chaters is the biggest in England.


Other UK specialist sellers include Collector's Carbooks (Chris Knapman's outfit near Milton Keynes), Mill House Books (mostly mail-order), and Motor Books, which I usually drop into whenever I'm in London - if only to see what oddities they have in that I've not seen elsewhere. I've bought mail-order or over the net from all of them in the past without any problems. The racing and motoring section of Foyle's is far, far better than that of any other mainstream bookshop and is also worth a visit - in fact, if you're round Charing Cross Road you can combine Foyle's, Motor Books and St Martin's Accessories (the model car shop) for quite a good petrolhead treat - although I believe St Martin's is up for sale?.

Sportspages on the other side of Charing Cross Road is rather "all balls", mainly being interested in football and rugby - its racing selection is rather average.

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#152 David McKinney

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 13:59

Originally posted by petefenelon


Other UK specialist sellers include Collector's Carbooks (Chris Knapman's outfit near Milton Keynes...

...in the throes of moving to Silverstone

#153 petefenelon

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 14:09

Originally posted by David McKinney

...in the throes of moving to Silverstone


Actually, while we're on this theme, are there any good racing/motoring booksellers up North? - I find that the majority of my purchases are online these days or made when I'm visiting London or a circuit. It's nice to browse (and ideally adjourn to a good nearby pub for a pint and a read afterwards - and if there's a first-rate curryhouse in the vicinity well that's virtually a day out!)

Alas despite having a very high concentration of secondhand/antiquarian booksellers, York is pretty poor for racing. Now, much as I'd love to jack in the job and run one, I suspect it means there isn't the demand round here ;)

pete

#154 David McKinney

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 15:06

Pooks Motor Books is based just north of Leicester

#155 cabianca

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 15:59

This has been an interesting discussion. The problem I see with motorbooks is that we all sit here and bitch without really considering what the market is. Of course WE all want motorsport books, but the rest of the world really doesn't care.

The market for almost all motorsports books is from 2000 to 5000 copies unless its about Fangio, Senna or perhaps, Moss. Serious historical subjects just don't sell and the previously mentioned "front-end" cost of publishing makes making a buck, pound or yen very tough. Levy's 30,000 sales figure was partially achieved by Bert himself who shamelessly sets up shop at several different venues during any motorsport weekend he attends. I don't think most authors would undertake the travel expense that Bert does to be where potential buyers are. I know I wouldn't.

Having stated the 2000 to 5000 number, of course there are exceptions. Tom Burnside's American Racing sold almost 50,000 copies, but the price/value equation was incredibly attractive (think the book was 29.95, for a beautiful hard-bound coffee table presentation), so much so that the publisher went broke! Randy Riggs new 50th Anniversary Corvette book will sell over 50,000, but certainly we agree that the anniversary and American Icon status of the 'Vette makes this an unusual situation. I, for one, certainly can't get mad at the publishers for printing 2000 copies of a book that is probably still going to be remaindered (put on sale). While I don't want to get into specific book sales, I can tell you that most of the books that show up on favorite lists on this forum only sold 2000 copies when new. As pointed out earlier in this thread, even the 2000 print run books are showing up on the sale lists very shortly after being produced.

In America, we have an unusual situation where the primary publisher of motoring literature is also the prime distributor. This is good in that they're cranking out ove 300 titles a year (think this must include stuff like calendars) but it results in a situation where the large publishing chains only go to them for transportation titles that are actually stocked. It's hard for the smaller publishers to get their titles into stores and in front of the general public.

Print on demand is the obvious answer. There are still problems to solve such as photo reproduction, but I'm sure these matters will be smoothed out in the not-too-distant future. Certainly the advantages to the author are profound. Check with them directly, but I believe that Veloce Press http://www.velocepress.com offers a pretty incredible deal of splitting the sales revenues with the author. I know of one author who has made more from the limited reprint sales thru Veloce Press than he did on the entire first run of his book.

As I've said before, best-selling authors skim the high points of history. It's the ink-stained wretches like us who get down in the trenches and provide the detail of a single human's life or a short period of history. With few exceptions, you ain't going to make any money doin' it, but it has
other rewards.

Warning: It's going to get worse before it gets better. The best stuff is going to continue come out in expensive small print runs until print on demand is perfected.

#156 Roger Clark

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 18:34

Originally posted by David McKinney
Pooks Motor Books is based just north of Leicester


Was that supposed to be an answer to Pete's question?

Pooks are very good for older books and magazines and easily combined with a visit to the Donington Museum

#157 Ron Scoma

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 19:07

Burt:

If you look in the back of Motor Sport , Thoroughbred and Classic Cars , Classic and Sportscars , and the Automobile there are listings of books stores that specialize in motoring books. I would suggest contacting them as a possible outlet for your books.
All of the above titles are published in the UK but are widely available in the USA. We have a great magazine store in Chicago that specializes in hard to find publications (no back issues) but unfortunately they do not do any mail order business.

Kind Regards,

Ron Scoma

#158 ensign14

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 19:31

Originally posted by petefenelon
The racing and motoring section of Foyle's is far, far better than that of any other mainstream bookshop and is also worth a visit - in fact, if you're round Charing Cross Road you can combine Foyle's, Motor Books and St Martin's Accessories (the model car shop) for quite a good petrolhead treat - although I believe St Martin's is up for sale

But Foyle's second hand prices make Eoin Young look like a remainder outlet.

And if you need a history of Scottish non-league teams or Czech football grounds Sportspages is a must.

Have Konemann (publishers of American Racing) gone bust? They still seem to be putting out the odd huge cheap book.

#159 petefenelon

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 20:29

Originally posted by ensign14
But Foyle's second hand prices make Eoin Young look like a remainder outlet.

And if you need a history of Scottish non-league teams or Czech football grounds Sportspages is a must.

Have Konemann (publishers of American Racing) gone bust? They still seem to be putting out the odd huge cheap book.


Very true, I usually wander round Foyle's cackling at the bargains I've scored via ebay or abebooks ;)
I've no idea how they value their stock - quite a lot of older books are still at their original cover prices, and yet some fairly common ones are marked up 100% or more over what the "free market" says. I've often been tempted to buy stuff in Motor Books and carry it the few hundred yards up the road to sell it to Foyle's ;)

I seem to recall Fred Gallagher mentioning that Konemann had gone bust a few months back. (Pity, I've got several of their art books too)


OK, there seems to be a general opinion that print-on-demand is a good idea.
What can we do about it?!

The issues seem to be

(1) getting rights from authors/estates (and former publishers, I guess, for facsimilie editions)
(2) identifying and partnering with with an appropriate print-on-demand operation
(3) working out if/how we can use brands like Atlas to promote a print-on-demand operation

PoD apparently can break even after small numbers of hundreds of copies. I'm sure there are dozens of books that could shift that many copies to the small TNF community at sensible prices ($20-$30 for a paperback, $30-50 for a hardback). There must be thousands more like us who don't read TNF...

Thoughts, anyone?

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#160 petefenelon

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 20:31

Originally posted by David McKinney
Pooks Motor Books is based just north of Leicester



!! - I've bought mail-order from them but Leicester isn't the North ;)

#161 David McKinney

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 21:09

Thought you might say that :wave:

#162 corsaresearch

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 21:27

To all,

Why do all these 'good' quality books get so expensive ... ?

Just returned from a trip to Italy - I'm in the final stage now for my two volume book on the
Fiat 8V/Siata. I had an appointment to check a well know historic photo-archive on the
post-war Mille Miglia races. There were about 23 images I wanted to use but at a rate
of € 100 per photo per publication, how can you manage to keep costs down ?
I didn't buy the images.

In my 10 years of research I have found ± 1200 period photos on the above subject - 95 %
of them never seen before. What do you want to pay for your copy, keeping those publication fees
in mind ???

This is also the reason why many books use new made pictures, while the (usually) small
selection of old images come from manufacturer's official documentation centers at
realistic prices, but therefore all seen before.

I think Doug Nye started almost the same time on his BRM volume II as I did with the 8V/Siata book.
How do you manage Doug ?, ... or do you work for a publisher who is willing to pay these amounts of
money for period images ? As you probably remember, I publish myself (I have a normal daytime job - which
means a normal monthly check) but if these high fees continue this will be my last book.

Tony Adriaensens

#163 Frank S

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Posted 10 June 2003 - 22:05

There is a thread on the Yahoo Editorial Photo group exploring a very similar concern, but from another perspective.

Current editors buy "stock" photography rather than continue the previous artistic quality of magazines and books by purchasing the services of professional photographers. All "bottom-line" oriented.

The photographers see this as an important trend, one that will eventually change how photographers look at themselves, their products and processes, and their markets.

Pretty tough times coming, if you are an independent photographer.



Frank S

#164 Mat

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 02:37

Originally posted by ensign14
Have Konemann (publishers of American Racing) gone bust? They still seem to be putting out the odd huge cheap book.


Yes, Konemann have gone bust, almost 12 months ago now by memory. Not sure where you saw some of their books on sale recently though! From memory they offloaded all their stock to ditributors, so it might be them who are still providiing the books for good prices.

#165 Mat

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 02:40

And to add to the list, the following are specialist motoring bookshops in Australia.

Technical Book Shop, in Melbourne & Pitstop Books, in Perth. Both are very good. There also used to be another couple in Sydney. One called Motorbooks, but has only recently gone out of business. Not sure what the other was called.

Regards,
Mat

#166 Anorak Man

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 04:47

AT Last!

Doug's BRM 'thesis' get's pride of place in Our Bookshop, with David McKinney in solid supporting role, but I have to say the cover of Chris Hilton's forthcoming Tazio Nuvloari book blows the sox off all comers.

Stunning!

AM

PS. Is it any good inside, anybody had a gander yet?

#167 dretceterini

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 14:20

To CorsaResearch (Tony)...and all...

I think I know which photo archive you are speaking about, and that is part of the reason I never more than half way done with the "etceterini" book I was working on.

Curami, who did "La Sport" had much easier access to that and other archives, and a "better" relationship with the publisher and owners of archival material (as he was in Italy and I'm in the US). I have no idea who really financed the book "La Sprt", but I assume Nada did, at least in part.

I for one, will buy your 8V/Siata book, pretty much regardless of what it costs, but it is a pretty obscure subject, and I realize if the book has to cost $200, it will sell very few copies. It would be sad for this to be your last book, as I am waiting for the one you were going to do on the other Siatas and the Alfa T33s...

I don't know how much your wonderful Alfa GTA book cost you in terms of money to do, but I know that you spent at least 3-4 years doing it....and with the actual out of pocket costs, probibly haven't even got your money back, much less, gotten paid for your time....Sad, and frustrating as hell...

#168 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 23:02

Interesting experience - reading through this thread and agreeing so much with many of the enthusiast opinions, and fears, expressed.

Konemann is an interesting cautionary tale. I believe that here was a fellow who conceived a publishing philosophy which held that if you produced a book which was sufficiently handsome, and printed it in such great numbers that individual volume price could appear absolutely rock bottom - surely a bargain - that EVERYBODY would buy one, if only as a great-value present for a grandchild, brother, husband etc.

Now that philosophy worked well with some general interest subjects - like gardening, music, soccer...

We're all pretty well aware that the global readership of sizeable motor racing books seems to be in four figures rather than six. Konemann was confident his idea of "make it cheap enough and nobody can resist buying it" would work in motor sport. It didn't. He still sold little more than four figures - i.e. to the pre-existing captive audience, but then attracted few peripheral takers despite the minimal cover price. This reality simply broke his venture...

Now it's a pity that modern quality books almost HAVE to be expensive - by common consent - if they're produced by anybody who HAS to earn a living (at least in part) from their sale.

Inexpensive books - almost by definition - will offer few good photographs, little decent research, a somehow minimised text UNLESS the author or publisher make real sacrificies and accept involvement with a project which they either subsidise, or on which they make a thumping loss...which they are able to do only because they're earning elsewhere.

As fewer young people read books, and older 'captives' pass on to the great saloon bar in the sky, 'our' market diminishes. As it diminishes so margins shrink.

The general book trade itself screws commercial publishers to the wall....60% discount off the cover price, or we don't offer your book.

On a £20 cover price the publisher might receive £8 per copy sold, so if an author is lucky enough to have a 10% royalty on every copy sold it's 10% of the publisher's take, not 10% of the cover price, and he might rejoice in receiving 80-pence per copy sold. If the book sells 5,000 (great) the author clears a sum which only the third world would regard as worthwhile payment for a year or more's work.

So you have to wipe such ambitions from your mind and write-off time invested. In my case my Cooper book absorbed 18 months of my life (and I enjoyed every single moment of working on it). In the case of my BRM Vol 1 book I spent 16 years attacking it - on and off - and enjoyed about 50 per cent of the work. BRM Vol 2 occupied something like six years - on and off - and I enjoyed maybe 80 per cent of it. If I cost out my time - before I shoot myself - I've been working on this stuff for fractions of a penny per hour, and I'm not confident how big a fraction that may prove to be. On the other hand many people enjoy less than 20% of their working day, so I count myself immensely fortunate to have muddled through thus far enjoying so much more of mine - no munn, but a lot of fun.

I have written a book in three weeks - my record so far - no, tell a lie, ten days for one - and it shows!

I've written one in 12 weeks and I'm told it didn't show.

To aspire to decent products of scope and with good illustrations and sharing a personally satisfying amount of new or freshly unearthed information costs money - and without independent income or wealth those costs have to be passed on to a like-minded audience. As that audience diminishes, unit costs inevitably rise...my instinct is to apologise for this inescapable fact, but then why should I do so....it's just a fact of life, which is not my fault, nor a decent publisher's fault, it just IS...

DCN

#169 Don Capps

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 01:32

One of the things I learned in the Rangers was that there are some things that simply ARE, so instead of butting your head against the wall, be like electricity and find the path of least possible resistence -- that works.

As has been pointed out to my satisfaction, doing things the Old Way means running up against things that simply are. So, that means you start looking for a better technique and a path offering the least resistence. In the case of books for a niche subject area, I think you have to abandon the old linear approaches to the this problem.

Assuming that the general concepts of Supply and Demand are still valid, where we seem to have a problem is getting the supply to match the demand. However, there are market forces which skew the process, which we will call "Doug's Reality." This is the eternal quality/quantity shell game or The Corkscrew of Expectations.

Perhaps in order to preserve that apparently dwindling species called The Professional Scribe -- Our Doug and Our Karl and Our Other Noble Writers being amongst that group, even BS -- we have ask that if the book business as it is currently configured cannot meet our demand without escalating the price into figures which dull the demand and hence the need for the supply, then perhaps we reinvent The Book.

There is no reason that we can't steal a few pages from the Entrepreneur Model that BS uses, splice that with variations on the Print-on-Demand model, and tinker with the formula to find a means to allow The Professionals to make a decent living, allow The Amateurs to bring forth their contrbutions, and -- perhaps the ultimate trick, develop and grow both The Talent AND The Audience.

Resonably priced and available books of Our Sort are needed not only to satisfy current demand, but to create and sustain further demand.

I think that by using the spiral development model and Just Doing It, there just might be A Way to successfully attack this problem.

One really big toad in the road are the new copyright laws which are fully intended to twart exactly the sort of thing that I am proposing. However, there are ways to approach this as well.

At any rate, I hope that most can see where I am heading with this line of attack.

#170 rmhorton

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 02:29

Fascinating thread.

But if things are so dire in the motoring book business what about publishing online? Ok, it can never be a ’coffee table’ product but does that matter?

Is a subscription type business that published many of ‘our’ types of books workable?

I have hundreds of books in my little library. I have hundreds of old magazines too, but no recent ones. Is that the future?

Roger

#171 Darren Galpin

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Posted 12 June 2003 - 07:42

From someone who arrived later into this scene.......

I've been interested in motorsport since I can ever remember, but in motorsport history (seriously, that is) for 12 years or so. But given my age and resources at the time, the serious books (if I knew they even existed! Would you believe that I only learnt of the Paul Sheldon books in the last 3.5 years?) were out of reach. Hence the book industry itself is hurting the field. How can you hope to get new blood interested in the wonders of 1930s Grand Prix racing, or the more obscure fields, if a decent book costs the wrong side of £30 or more? Hence my magazine collection is mostly this side of 1992, except for the odd copies of magazines I have picked up for 50p or so in second hand book shops. My book collection isn't so great compared to some of yours either - books are either out of print, or simply so expensive that they can only be bought occasionally, and when I can justify the purchase because I simply need the information now. The only way I can see to get some of the books that I would like is to forcibly get some of you lot to change your wills in my favour, and then to arrange an untimely demise.......

Despite what has been said, the young do read books. They just need to be well written, attractively laid out, and affordable. People may not like the Harry Potter books, but an attractive story line and affordable price has meant that an awful lot of kids have read them (I may be straying a little too far here, but you get my drift).

Then I keep having the absurd notion of writing a book in future. Forgetting the difficulties for the moment described here, it can take long enough to write a decent enough article (see various ones on 8W, my piece on the FD Copersucar cars), what with needing adequate research, backing up of facts, and the need (I feel, at least - and try to most of the time) to add something new to the literature. A book would have to be a hobby - there's no way I could justify the expense of doing it full time when you compare the expected income (if it sells well - and I doubt that a first effort would in my case) to what I can earn otherwise.

Early Morning rant over.

#172 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 05:20

Veeery intereeesting! Especially the comments from you professionals. Thank you very much. :)

#173 ensign14

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 19:24

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
But given my age and resources at the time, the serious books (if I knew they even existed! Would you believe that I only learnt of the Paul Sheldon books in the last 3.5 years?) were out of reach.

I had to take a Saturday job to get the Sheldon books (vols 1, 5 and 6 at the time), and a certain book about Grand Prix cars from 1966 to 1985...difficult when doing GCSEs when they were quite hard.

#174 Alan Lewis

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 22:09

Originally posted by ensign14
I had to take a Saturday job to get the Sheldon books (vols 1, 5 and 6 at the time), and a certain book about Grand Prix cars from 1966 to 1985...difficult when doing GCSEs when they were quite hard.


It might just be hindsight, but there seemed to be a point in the mid to late eighties when motor racing literature just exploded and loads of the books we'd ever wanted but couldn't find just appeared. The first Sheldons coincided with my first "proper" job, which happened to be at Heathrow, within easy staggering distance of Chater and Scott's (as it then was) at Ilseworth.

I had to make myself not go there, because no-one has that much money to spend, not even Bernie.

APL

#175 Ron Scoma

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 03:29

Originally posted by Alan Lewis
The first Sheldons coincided with my first "proper" job, which happened to be at Heathrow, within easy staggering distance of Chater and Scott's (as it then was) at Ilseworth.
I had to make myself not go there, because no-one has that much money to spend, not even Bernie.


One day I flew into London (from Chicago) and made my first stop 8 South Street (Chater and Scott's). I spent a few hours there buying some items and drooling over items I didn't. Well, they were closing up for the day (OK, maybe it was more than a few hours) and I mentioned that I needed a hotel for the night and could they recommend a place close by?
Frank (Stroud) mentioned that rooms were hard to find at that hour and would I like to stay with him at his home in High Wycombe?
I couldn't believe his generosity as we had never met and I was just a poor enthusiast (poor from spending my funds with him, but poor nonetheless). We spent hours talking about what books "to have" and I both took and valued his advice.
What a great guy, and his son Clive is no different.
Try to make it a point to help those who help the hobby and get to know the people. Their stories are usually more interesting than most of the current crop of drivers anyway.
Thanks Frank, you're missed and someday we'll all be at your great library in the sky as you gave many of us our start.
Respectfully,

Ron Scoma

#176 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 08:18

Ron - that's a charming and wel-deserved tribute to a good bloke - I first bought second-hand motor racing books from Frank Stroud's original shop in Chiswick around 1965 or '66...and I'm still a customer of son Clive's in Isleworth today. That's no coincidence. Good people.

DCN

#177 Geza Sury

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 12:59

Originally posted by Criceto
"Racing the Silver Arrows" is about to get a reprint, and while it's being touted as a special print run limited to 1000 copies worldwide, you can bet that the publishers have done their sums carefully and decided that's all they dare produce.

My copy has arrived from Chater's :cool: Now I understand why many of you mentioned this book as a favourite in the Favourite Books on Racing or Motoring thread :up:

#178 Don Capps

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 22:33

As I ponder my future, one venture I have in the back of my mind is creating the Six Two Press. Why "Six Two Press?"

Number Six: What do you want?

Number Two: Information.


:lol:

#179 PRD

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 23:05

Originally posted by petefenelon


That's just vandalism :( :( :(

It's cases like that that make one glad there's decent scanners and PDF around ;)

You know, the more I think about it the more I think low-priced enthusiast editions of out-of-print-and-not-otherwise-likely-to-be-back-in-print books are a good idea... Les Rix was on to a good one when he managed to get Pom 1 & 2 reprinted - OK, as fairly murky scans but they're still better than no Pom.



I'd never heard about the reprints of Pom 1 & 2.
Are copies still available ?

Regards

Paul

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#180 Jim Thurman

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 23:14

Originally posted by Don Capps
As I ponder my future, one venture I have in the back of my mind is creating the Six Two Press. Why "Six Two Press?"

Number Six: What do you want?

Number Two: Information.


:lol:


:lol:

Don, only problem...the next two lines

Number Six: You won't get it.

Number Two: By hook or by crook, we will.


So, does it still apply :lol:


Jim Thurman

#181 Jim Thurman

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 23:18

Don,

It just occurred to me, would the Six Two Press logo be a pink balloon?  ;)


Jim Thurman

#182 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 00:23

Originally posted by PRD



I'd never heard about the reprints of Pom 1 & 2.
Are copies still available ?

Regards

Paul

This is the website address: unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

http://www.enginfoserv.com/gpcar.htm

Their phone number is +44 (0)1664 480411 though. Price was round about £40 on CD, £50 on paper.

:)

#183 Don Capps

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 01:31

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
It just occurred to me, would the Six Two Press logo be a pink balloon?  ;)


Actually, a Rover was more an off-white or buff than pink.....

I have to wonder why more of the books such the Pom GP volumes haven't been reproduced in a CD-ROM format. As someone does not "collect" books as investments or whatever, but for either the information contained within, I am perfectly happy with reproductions or what-not as long as they are legible and complete. Also, I have no problem paying a nominal fee for such materials.

The more I read and re-read this thread and mull over its contents, the more I see the opportunities as well as the problems what we are facing.

#184 Option1

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 17:55

Originally posted by Mike B
Originally posted by 917

When Automobile Quarterly published the Errett Lobban Cord book by Griffith Borgeson (in 1984?), they announced they had printed 1500 or 2500 copies only and then destroyed the printing master (I'm not sure whether this is the appropriate English expression - is lithograph better?) to make sure that there would never be a second edition. ]

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I really do not see a problem with this unlike most people in this thread. At least it is honest unlike the numerous books that "sell out" and suddenly reappear. I bought a Ferrari book a few years ago that was a limited numbered edition costing about GBP200 and then it got republished by Haynes with a different dust jacket for GBP50.

Half the fun of collecting books is that you cannot get everything and I think it adds to the appeal of a quality book like the BRM book that it is limited and numbered. I also think 2500 is probably about the right number ; it is not as though Volume 1 sold out in days is it and I am sure Volume 2 will be around for a while for those who want it. Furthermore none of us can say that we have not had time to save for it can we? Sorry Doug!

BTW when is Volume 3 going to be released?

Some of us collect books to read, for information, for enjoyment. We don't collect books because the dust jacket is pristine and it's still in its plastic wrapper nor so that we can have it and no one else can so there. Frankly, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the crowd that insists the things shouldn't be reprinted because they bought a numbered edition and it'll lower the value and hence lower their smugness about having a book no one else can get. So good on Haynes for reprinting the Ferrari book and long may there be more who do the same!

Maybe, one day, someone will reprint Mon Ami Mate and it will become affordable enough for me to be actually able to read it. I was lucky enough to pick up a cheap reprint of All Arms and Elbows via abebooks, but I'm sure that reprint upset the hoarders.

Neil

#185 Don Capps

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 19:29

Neil, :rotfl: :up:

#186 petefenelon

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 17:04

Originally posted by Don Capps


Actually, a Rover was more an off-white or buff than pink.....

I have to wonder why more of the books such the Pom GP volumes haven't been reproduced in a CD-ROM format. As someone does not "collect" books as investments or whatever, but for either the information contained within, I am perfectly happy with reproductions or what-not as long as they are legible and complete. Also, I have no problem paying a nominal fee for such materials.


Although I prefer 'real' books CDs have a lot of advantages. After all, I've got the complete National Geographic, National Geographic Maps, Britannica 2003, Concise OED, vast chunks of Project Gutenberg and various other reference material all to hand on my fileserver - a few good racing references would be useful too ;)

#187 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 13:04

For those (few?) of you out there interested in rallying some great news. Reinhard Klein of "Rally Cars" "Rally" and "Walter Rohrl" fame is doing a large format 312 page book to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Safari Rally.

It will be colour where available and include full entry lists and results.

Price will be €78 and it should be ready in October.

By the way, the Historic East African Safari with Waldegard, Mouton et al can be read about on www.eastafricansafari.com

I'll be Clerk of the Course but ex-Nissan driver Mike Kirkland is doing all the hard work.

#188 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 13:07

Sorry - it's eastafricansafarirally.com

Doh!

#189 Geza Sury

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 13:51

Great news Fred :up: Any idea how can I purchase the "Rally Cars" book? I'm not able to locate this book for a long time :( OK, you can buy it from Amazon for $200 or so, but I can't afford to spend that much : )

#190 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 09:20

Didn't know "Rally Cars" was sold out or valuable (financially that is). Klein is here in Cyprus - I'll ask him.

#191 m.tanney

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 16:06

Originally posted by petefenelon
Although I prefer 'real' books CDs have a lot of advantages. After all, I've got the complete National Geographic, National Geographic Maps, Britannica 2003, Concise OED, vast chunks of Project Gutenberg and various other reference material all to hand on my fileserver - a few good racing references would be useful too ;)


  I'd be happy to drop a few hundred on CD-ROMs with full runs of Autosport, Motor Sport, Speed Sport News, Speed Age, or some of the really old American periodicals like The Automobile or Motor Age. Of course, there's no way I could afford the originals, which would run into the tens of thousands - if they were available.

#192 petefenelon

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 17:58

Originally posted by m.tanney


  I'd be happy to drop a few hundred on CD-ROMs with full runs of Autosport, Motor Sport, Speed Sport News, Speed Age, or some of the really old American periodicals like The Automobile or Motor Age. Of course, there's no way I could afford the originals, which would run into the tens of thousands - if they were available.


Likewise, I could scrap the half-roomful of the damn things I've got now.

Actually, I'd settle for The Complete Jenks. He may not have always been right but on the rare occasions when he wasn't, at least he was entertainingly wrong.;)

#193 Don Capps

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 22:26

Originally posted by m.tanney
I'd be happy to drop a few hundred on CD-ROMs with full runs of Autosport, Motor Sport, Speed Sport News, Speed Age, or some of the really old American periodicals like The Automobile or Motor Age. Of course, there's no way I could afford the originals, which would run into the tens of thousands - if they were available.


This is the only way much of this will ever get much circulation among those of us who have an interest in these periodicals. I never cease to be amazed how difficult it is to obtain copies of what should be basic research information. I can drone on for hours on this subject. Were it not for the kindness of others, there is much more that I would not have to work with. There are several uncoordinated efforts, usually the work of an individual, that are trying to tackle this problem. I can say that I would dearly love to have The Automobile and Motor Age and Speed Age and the older issues of NSSN on CD-ROM. My access to printed -- bound -- copies of some of these is very limited and infrequent and copying is a nightmare.

#194 Fred Gallagher

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 05:43

Great news Fred Any idea how can I purchase the "Rally Cars" book? I'm not able to locate this book for a long time OK, you can buy it from Amazon for $200 or so, but I can't afford to spend that much )

Seems you can get it from Pitstop in Perth, Australia at list price.

I too would happily buy CDs of old journals, especially non-English ones such as Autosprint.

#195 marat

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 06:24

CD of old journals? I dream to have Auto Italiana...

#196 Geza Sury

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:40

Originally posted by Fred Gallagher
Seems you can get it from Pitstop in Perth, Australia at list price.

Thank You very much, Mr Gallagher :clap:

#197 neville mackay

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 21:08

Reading some of this thread makes me wonder if people really remember what it was like to be a motorsports book collector 20-30 years ago. Few books; little of historical interest; not much variety; dodgy standards of research and writing; poorly printed; and almost impossible to obtain. Yes, of course there are imperfections with the way the publishing industry is driving the market today, yes, we all wish books were cheaper and yes, I wish it was possible for someone to print an 800 page treatise on the design and evolution of the Merlyn Mk11A and still make a profit. But in comparison with yesteryear, the reality is that we've never had it so good.

In the last month alone I've been priviliged to read 3 quite different but equally brilliant books, all of which have been meticulously researched, all of which add substantively to our knowledge of racing history, and all of which are beautifully produced by publishers who have no doubt taken an enormous risk to get them on the market. These wouldn't have stood a prayer of seeing the light of day 20 or 30 years ago. And just in case you're wondering which three books I'm talking about.....I doff my proverbial hat to Gary Doyle for his biography of Jimmy Murphy, our own Doug Nye for the masterpiece of his second BRM volume and to Chrostphe Gaascht for his wonderful new book on Willy Mairesse. Well done gentlemen!

Neville Mackay

#198 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 22:28

Cds of journals would be marvellous, but the sheer amount of work (and cost) involved are staggering. I'm fortunate enough to own a 40+-year run of Motor Sport and a full set of Classic & Sports Car. They take up a hell of a lot of space: I shudder to think how much space Roger's complete Autosport occupies! But the thought of scanning and copying every page ..... AAARRRGGGHHHH!!

Yes, of course it could be done, but at what cost? Could that outlay ever be recouped? As a commercial operation, I'm afraid it's a total non-starter.

If we stick only to the major UK journals, you're looking at 75+ years of Motor Sport, 100+ years of Autocar, 90 or so years of Motor, 40+ years of Motoring/Motorsport News and 50+ years of Autosport. And there are plenty more .....

I'm not saying this is impossible, but at the moment I don't see a practical way of doing it. This is not a job for one individual, or even one institution, and will involve getting the major archives like IMRRC at Watkins Glen, NMM at Beaulieu, Biscaretti, Villa Trips etc etc to work together for the good of the history of our sport - sponsorships could and should come from the industry: in the past companies like Shell have invested in motor racing history, there's no reason why they shouldn't do so again.

My local evening paper announced today that the entire Isambard Kingdom Brunel archive, which has been assembled over fifty years, is to be made available on line. The cost? £76000. That's roughly 110000 Euros. Or $127000. Or AU$167000. The cost will be met from a lottery grant. Lucky old Brunel Archive ....

#199 Ron Scoma

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 23:55

Originally posted by neville mackay
Reading some of this thread makes me wonder if people really remember what it was like to be a motorsports book collector 20-30 years ago. Few books; little of historical interest; not much variety; dodgy standards of research and writing; poorly printed; and almost impossible to obtain.
Neville Mackay


Yes, you're right but I remember many a fine conversations with Charlie Mortimer at Beaulieu. He was quite a character, in the best sense of the word, and he provided a first hand account. Today we have better research but fewer first hand accounts.
In Chicago we have a few guys bringing out the tape recorders before "they're all gone." Not sure where it all will lead, but better to have and not need than to need and not have...

Thanks

Ron Scoma

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#200 mark f1

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 05:49

To change the topic slightly.....I've been meaning to post asking for people's opinion on the best Jack Brabham bio to buy, I haven't noticed many around. Found on the 'pitstop' book site today that they are advertising the upcoming book from our own DCN with Jack. I'm sure others here already knew this was coming, I didn't.

Any previews or snippets that we can be let in on? When is it due to be published and do we have a price?

Cheers
Mark