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The book thread: In memory of Pete Fenelon


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#3301 Jim Thurman

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 19:59

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Probably little to no interest here since it does not deal with a British or formula one topic, but Liz Clarke, the motor sports writer for of my local paper, The Washington Post, has a new book out. It is entitled One Helluva Ride: How NASCAR Swept the Nation, Villard, ISBN 978-0-345-49988-2. As always, Clarke provides a book that is worth taking the time to sit down and read, helping to put some things in a bit of perspective, since it is also one of the better written books on this topic.


Revisiting this, here is a direct quote that troubles me. Page 169:

"NASCAR had been in California before, but both Riverside and Ontario Motor Speedway had gone out of business, crippled by heavy debt and waning interest."

:eek:

I had made the remark that I was concerned about what she wrote about Tony Stewart. No need to worry as there is little mention of him.

Clarke, and for that matter, anyone writing about him, are in dire need of some true research and alternative sources when it comes to Jeff Gordon.

Now, if you want to talk about novelization versus true historical fact, that is a great place to start :D

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#3302 COUGAR508

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 21:43

Originally posted by green-blood
great stuff, thanks for that review. I'd seen this but was wondering if it might be a bit dry... there are lots of results books out there, I know who won what, when already. But this looks very thought provoking.

Just from that one graph its intersting to see how Schumacher dominates the graph, but also the suprising prominence fo Mansell


It does look quite interesting, and may just fill a gap in the market. Analysis rather than pure statistics, it seems.

#3303 fines

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 21:49

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Given that there might be some interest in how historians view the past -- or at least how one does, here are two reviews that mention the new Gordon Wood book, THE PURPOSE OF THE PAST, Reflections on the Uses of History:

Jonathan Yardley, The Washington Post

Jill Lepore, The New Yorker

The Lepore article addresses an issue that might be considered quite germane to the writing of motor sport history....

Thanks for the reading tips, Don!

While the Lepore article, imho at least, is a bit of a "light weight" amuse guell, the Yardley review is very interesting and mouth watering:

Unlike sociology or political science, history is a conservative discipline -- conservative, of course, not in any contemporary political sense but in the larger sense of inculcating skepticism about people's ability to manipulate and control purposefully their own destinies. By showing that the best-laid plans of people usually go awry, the study of history tends to dampen youthful enthusiasm and to restrain the can-do, the conquer-the-future spirit that many people have. Historical knowledge takes people off a roller coaster of illusions and disillusions; it levels off emotions and gives people a perspective on what is possible and, more often, what is not possible.

Indeed, I have found myself in this quote from the Gordon Wood book... If my desk wasn't already "full to the brim" of books I ultimately do not have the time to read, I'd certainly go for The Purpose of the Past without a glimmer of hesitation! Heck, I might just as well... :up:

#3304 fines

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 22:20

Loved this one:
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#3305 david stinson

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 18:18

Has anyone read Porsche: The Rally Story
by Laurence Meredith or seen a review? It looks like it might be good but it's not inexpensive. I am not familar with any of the author's other work.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

#3306 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 19:51

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Given that there might be some interest in how historians view the past -- or at least how one does, here are two reviews that mention the new Gordon Wood book, THE PURPOSE OF THE PAST, Reflections on the Uses of History:

Jonathan Yardley, The Washington Post

Jill Lepore, The New Yorker

The Lepore article addresses an issue that might be considered quite germane to the writing of motor sport history....


I deliberately did a bit of "compare and contrast" with the Jill Lepore and Jonathan Yardley pieces. I am a great admirer of Yardley, the highlight of the weekend usually being reading his column -- and that of Michael Dirda -- in the Books section of The Washington Post. I thought the Lepore article interesting, but in a very different sense than the Yardley review. I think some need to realize that Lepore was approaching history and fiction from a point of view that was intended to raise a few hackles. One need not to agree or accept what the author is writing to appreciate some of the points being raised or inferred. I have long held that History as we currently know and define it, was an invention created by -- for lack of a better term -- those Western story-tellers who shifted the narrative line, if you will. If you approach Lepore's article as an essay by a critic that provides a few thoughts that when compared and contrasted with the thoughts of Wood and Yardley provides another level of insight in the nature of history, you will have spent your time doing that rather than plunking your butt in front of the Electronic Lobotomy. At least that is my rationalization for reading such material.

THE PURPOSE OF THE PAST, Reflections on the Uses of History, has proven to be as good as advertised. I made the decision to squeeze it into my Reading List despite there being a little less flexibility in my reading than usual. In the anticipation of a possible/probable rotation back to SWA -- Iraq this time versus a split twix there and Kuwait as last time -- this summer (although nothing is definite at this point) as part of an advisory team, I have been focusing on reading/re-reading books such as The Prize, The Assassin's Gate, and other books and materials on COIN, Arabic culture, and so forth to get my mindset pointed in the right direction for what I might be doing this time if I return. The essays in the Wood book are great. I was surprised to an extent at how many of them I had already read, but there were several I had not read before which made me do some thinking.

Oh, the Jack Sears book by Graham Gauld arrived the other day. I have not had much of an opportunity to look at it, unfortunately. The same can be said for about a dozen other new books stacked on the floor.

#3307 Paul Jeffrey

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:33

Not sure if it has been covered here but Maurice Hamilton's Chequered Conflict is a very good read. It is too early for the definitive story of the 2007 F1 season but Hamilton gives a pithy and insightful overview. The book compares that season and the fuss around Lewis Hamilton to 1986 and that unforgetaable finale in Adelaide with Mansell losing the chance of the title when a rear tyre exploded. Cutting between the two years works well, although, as you might expect, there is more emphasis on 2007 than 1986. It would be nice to have more books from Maurice.

I also read Alan Henry's Top F1 drivers which has been covered on other strands. Aside from the debates about who is missing and why driver x is rated better than driver y, my impression is that this book was written very quickly. Most of the anecdotes included here have been told before. With BRM Volume 3 next on the pile which reeks of many hours of painstaiking research, this is very thin in comparison.

#3308 fines

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 09:41

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
I deliberately did a bit of "compare and contrast" with the Jill Lepore and Jonathan Yardley pieces. I am a great admirer of Yardley, the highlight of the weekend usually being reading his column -- and that of Michael Dirda -- in the Books section of The Washington Post. I thought the Lepore article interesting, but in a very different sense than the Yardley review. I think some need to realize that Lepore was approaching history and fiction from a point of view that was intended to raise a few hackles. One need not to agree or accept what the author is writing to appreciate some of the points being raised or inferred. I have long held that History as we currently know and define it, was an invention created by -- for lack of a better term -- those Western story-tellers who shifted the narrative line, if you will. If you approach Lepore's article as an essay by a critic that provides a few thoughts that when compared and contrasted with the thoughts of Wood and Yardley provides another level of insight in the nature of history, you will have spent your time doing that rather than plunking your butt in front of the Electronic Lobotomy. At least that is my rationalization for reading such material.

Yes, sure as baby poo Lepore's got an agenda! And even though I am certainly not averse to the core of her thesis, it is her style of slightly inelegant use of repetition that irks me and has me constantly asking "Yes, yes, yes... and the point is???" Trying to be subconscious and... yes, clever! :rolleyes:

#3309 Mark A

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 20:13

Picked up Team Lotus-The Indianapolis Years by Andrew Ferguson today.

After looking for this book for years I found it on the Classic Team Lotus stand at the Lotus show at Donington Park today. It seems it has undergone a reprint. :up:

Looking forward to finally reading this book.

#3310 petefenelon

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 21:34

You're in for a treat with that one Mark, some great stories and photos in there with a real sense of just how different Indy was to those brought up in the European scene.

Couple of recent acquisitions here: "Norman Dewis of Jaguar: Developing the Legend". The only word I can use to describe this is "WOW!". Nearly 600 pages, innumerable photos, a mix of personal reminiscence, documentation and thorough engineering history. Skilleter and Dewis do for Jaguar what Nye and Rudd did for BRM and praise doesn't come much higher than that. This will take and richly reward weeks of close reading. Mandatory if you like engineering biographies, or if fifties sports car racing means anything to you. Up there with Andrew Whyte's two volumes as an absolute Jaguar classic, but more readable as it has the individual focus Whyte lacked. Extremely well produced, a huge book well worth the price.

Phil Kerr's "To Finish First" is wonderful stuff. Utterly readable, telling Phil's own story intertwined with his relationships with Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme and Bruce McLaren. It paints the same kind of broad profile of the Southern Hemisphere guys as Adam Cooper's superb biography of Piers Courage did for some of their British near-contemporaries, and shows how the guys from Down Under got there on hard graft. Phil's eloquent and penetrating reminiscences are pin-sharp and very human; the presentation of the book really is astonishingly good for the price, with elegant layout and typography and superb photo repro - plus lots of Michael/Graham Turner paintings in there too!

#3311 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 21:47

Great to hear good things about the Phil Kerr book.

W. H. Smith's in Bangor will be ringing me last Wednesday to tell me that my copy has arrived, along with Karl Ludvigsen's Ferrari/Maserati book.

Yes, I did say 'will be ringing last Wednesday'.

Before anyone comments on my choice of bookseller, my family are great voucher buyers......

#3312 green-blood

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 22:33

now thats customer service par excellance

the Norman Dewis book is truely fantastic

#3313 philippe charuest

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 15:59

Originally posted by Mark A
Picked up Team Lotus-The Indianapolis Years by Andrew Ferguson today.

After looking for this book for years I found it on the Classic Team Lotus stand at the Lotus show at Donington Park today. It seems it has undergone a reprint. :up:

Looking forward to finally reading this book.

bought it many years ago ,very interesting stuff ,not a Chapman & Clark hagiography for once

#3314 Mark A

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 18:03

Just got back home tonight to find the Whizzo Williams book has been delivered by Amazon, I guess the DIY can wait a while. :lol:

#3315 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 22:07

My copy of The Best of CAR arrived today, surprisingly in hard cover instead of paperback as described by Amazon. The only problem now...devour it this weekend or "save" it for the trans-Atlantic to Goodwood in September. (I'm not known for my willpower, however.)

Jack

#3316 Sisyphus

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 04:31

Anyone have a suggestion on a source in the USA of Doug Nye's BRM Volume 3? Not until I pushed the "buy" button was I able to get a projected ship date from Amazon--November!!

Nothing showing on Autobooks (LA) website or on the other sources I've used for mail order before.

I hate to wait that long!

Thanks.

#3317 fbarrett

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 17:16

Originally posted by david stinson
Has anyone read Porsche: The Rally Story
by Laurence Meredith or seen a review? It looks like it might be good but it's not inexpensive. I am not familar with any of the author's other work.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


David:

I've looked it over but not read every word of the text. Because the book has an amazing amount of unusual period photographs, I enjoyed it, but the captions are practically worthless--vague, at best. At $90 (US), I'd buy it again, but then I'm nuts about Porsche books.

Frank

#3318 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 19:38

I see where Hitler's Motor Racing Battles: The Silver Arrows under the Swastika by Eberhard Reuss is supposed to be available here in the States in the June timeframe.

#3319 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 20:30

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
I see where Hitler's Motor Racing Battles: The Silver Arrows under the Swastika by Eberhard Reuss is supposed to be available here in the States in the June timeframe.

Haynes are quoting April for this in the UK. One UK bookseller is quoting April 28th (which is odd, given that books aren't usually published here on Mondays). Let's see .... (publication dates are usually movable feasts).

Whatever, I'm amazed and very impressed that this has been translated!!!!

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#3320 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 23:40

I mention this in large part due to his participation in the Fellbach Symposium last July.

#3321 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 23:02

Originally posted by mx906
Hi,

I'm not sure how you all feel about self-promotion in this forum but here goes. I've written a book entitled "The Porsche 904, 906 & 910 In The Americas." It has been about five years in the making. It has 432 pages with close to 1000 photos. There are driver biographies, race-by-race coverage of events in North and South America where a 904, 906, or 910 was entered, and detailed chassis histories for about 90 individual cars. There is also some technical information and specifications. If you are interested, you can find more information at www.sportscarracinghistory.com. The first copies will be shipped in December.

Thanks,
Jerry Pantis


I have just received the book here in the Netherlands through the excellent care of Ellen van Beusekom, http://www.autonetcarbooks.com/. She has a few more copies in stock. Any Porsche lover should run to get a copy because it is superb. For a decent price, this is a book full of information, lots and lots of pictures and it seems to cover all appearnces in America (not USA, but North and South America) for these 3 types. A few more titles are expected but given the amount of info he uses, it don't think they will follow in very quick succession. I have only browsed through the book, not yet read very much, or compared data with what I have available, but already I can very warlmy recommend it. It will be on my shortlist for best book of the year.

Regards,
Henk Vasmel

#3322 sprite

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 00:24

I bought a copy directly from the author's website around Christmas and totally agree with Henk's opinion. The amount of detail and research is amazing, and the photographs are outstanding. I look forward to many more books from this author.

#3323 kdc04

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 19:08

I've been looking for Time and Two Seats buy Janos Wimpffen but so far I have had no success... Would anyone here be able to help out?

#3324 PRD

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 19:31

Originally posted by kdc04
I've been looking for Time and Two Seats buy Janos Wimpffen but so far I have had no success... Would anyone here be able to help out?


Where do you live?

#3325 kdc04

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by PRD


Where do you live?


Belgium, but I don't mind paying the postage to get it from America or anywhere... I've tried all the places I found on the internet but it's sold out everywhere.

#3326 chrisj

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 20:11

Could someone recommend a good book about Richard Petty? Or, a book about NASCAR in the 1960's? Thanks, Chris

#3327 PRD

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 21:49

Originally posted by kdc04


Belgium, but I don't mind paying the postage to get it from America or anywhere... I've tried all the places I found on the internet but it's sold out everywhere.


I'd try David Bull and see if they'll put you in touch with Janos Wimpffen who I think used Collectors Car books as his UK agents

http://www.bullpublishing.com/
http://www.collector...shop/index.html

which is how I obtained my copy a couple of years ago, or a search on ABE books shows two available

http://www.abebooks.... seats&x=28&y=6

#3328 kdc04

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:35

Originally posted by PRD


I'd try David Bull and see if they'll put you in touch with Janos Wimpffen who I think used Collectors Car books as his UK agents

http://www.bullpublishing.com/
http://www.collector...shop/index.html

which is how I obtained my copy a couple of years ago, or a search on ABE books shows two available

http://www.abebooks.... seats&x=28&y=6


I'll try contacting David Bull (since it was out of stock on their site I hadn't even thought about contacting them). Good advice!

And I contacted Collectorscarbooks too. I didn't know about them. Their shop seems like heaven...

Thanks a lot!

#3329 PRD

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 13:21

Originally posted by kdc04


I'll try contacting David Bull (since it was out of stock on their site I hadn't even thought about contacting them). Good advice!

And I contacted Collectorscarbooks too. I didn't know about them. Their shop seems like heaven...

Thanks a lot!


You're welcome :)
let us know how you get on

#3330 fbarrett

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 17:03

Originally posted by kdc04
I've been looking for Time and Two Seats buy Janos Wimpffen but so far I have had no success... Would anyone here be able to help out?


I have access to one new copy at the original price, in the U.S.; for details, please contact me off-line.

#3331 fbarrett

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 17:05

Originally posted by fbarrett


I have access to one new copy at the original price, in the U.S.; for details, please contact me off-line.


Ooops, forgot to add my e-mail: fbarrett@aol.com.

Frank

#3332 kdc04

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 19:29

Time for some shameless advertising: Frank 'fbarrett' from www.toadhallbook.com has been kind enough to sell me his remaining brand new copy of Time and Two Seats at the original price of 295 USD. Thanks a lot Frank!

#3333 red stick

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 21:47

Originally posted by chrisj
Could someone recommend a good book about Richard Petty? Or, a book about NASCAR in the 1960's? Thanks, Chris


Both subjects could do with a good modern treatment.

Greg Fielden's books are useful for the 60's--he's about the only author recently whose approach to NASCAR history doesn't gloss over everything that happened before Dale Earnhardt and Jeff Gordon (the rash of books that appeared around the 50th anniversary being particularly disappointing). The Higgins and Waid book on Junior Johnson published a few years back by David Bull is also interesting for the 60's and 70's.

#3334 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 22:06

Originally posted by chrisj
Could someone recommend a good book about Richard Petty? Or, a book about NASCAR in the 1960's? Thanks, Chris


For an overview of GN racing in the 1960's, the two volumes for the Greg Fielden series, "Forty Years of Stock Car Racing," which cover those years, Vol. 2 "The Superspeedway Boom 1959-1964" and Vol 3. "Big Bucks and Boycotts 1965-1971" are probably the best readily available.

Just a few that I have on the shelf:
King Richard I, by Petty & William Neely (1986)
King of the Road, by Petty (1977)
The Cars of the King, by Bongard & Coulter (1997)*
The Petty Family Album, Pattie & Kyle Petty (2002)


* A nice idea done badly.... For some reason they used drawings that look as if they were done by kindergarten dropouts, but fortunately there are good photos to makeup to some degree for that incredible glitch.

#3335 Graham Gauld

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 09:19

Racing Team Holland : by Rob Wiedenhoff and Ed Heuvnik ISBN 978-90-811894-1-5

I don't think anyone has mentioned or reviewed this book but it is well worth a comment. We don't hear much about Dutch racing drivers and Dutch racing and this opened my eyes to a lot of interesting information.
John Hugenholtz is Chairman of the Racing Team Holland Foundation and was responsible not only for bringing the team name back into the sport but for ensuring that this book was written. His father, also John Hugenholtz, was the well known circuit designer and manager of the Zandvoort track and he along with Erik Hazelhoff Roelfzema, Ben van Marken and Willen Blankevoort founded the team to give young Dutch drivers a helping hand in racing. Amongst the first of their successful drivers were Ben Pon, Rob Slotemaker and Gijs van Lennep and they later launched Jan Lamers Arie Luyedijk and Huub Rothengatter.
Racing Team Holland took all of those drivers out of local Dutch racing and on to the International scene and so played as important a part in Dutch racing as Ecurie Ecosse played in Scottish racing.
It is a good read with lots of interesting pictures,and lots of behind the scenes stories such as the disputes between Ben Pon and Rob Slotemaker.
Many TNF readers will be interested in the sections on Formula 3 and Formula 2 in the 1970s and '80s when the team stopped in 1981. It was reformed in 1987 by young John Hugenholtz and John has had a few wins in the TOur Auto and other historic events under the RTH banner. There is a good results table at the end and a list of all the drivers who have driven for Racing Team Holland.

#3336 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 11:21

:wave: Now that was nice Graham , I have earlier looked at it , but found it only in Dutch ???? language ?
Now Dutch being to me a rather difficult combination of English , German , Danish AND Dutch , I would think ,
the price aside , it to be heavy to read , but prove me wrong someone , please , and I will buy it ! :smoking:

#3337 Graham Gauld

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:27

Bjorn

My copy is in English order from this web site racingteamholland@gmail.com

#3338 ensign14

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 16:33

This month's Motor Sport carries the interesting news that the 1950-90 issues are being made available on DVD...

Also updating that a Brian Redman autobiog is due this year. :)

Picked up from the States a biog of the Allison family by Peter Golenbock. His "American Zoom" was wonderfully readable oral history of NASCAR, so I'm looking forward to taking a bite of that one. Also got a Bill Elliott autobiog.

#3339 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:42

:wave: Thanks for the info and link Graham ! :smoking:

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#3340 bradbury west

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 20:48

Originally posted by ensign14
[B]This month's Motor Sport carries the interesting news ....

In the contributor's profile of Simon Moore they mention that the revised version of Moore's Immortal 2.9 is due later this year.
Roger Lund

#3341 PRD

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 21:42

There's an instant library here:


http://cgi.ebay.co.u...:MEWA:IT&ih=004


at a price :eek:

#3342 David McKinney

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 21:46

If his "complete collection" starts with 1961/62, what are the 1959 and 1960 volumes I've got?
(And I reckon £20 a copy is pretty cheap)

#3343 PRD

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 21:46

Originally posted by M Needforspeed





I bought the book at the Jim Clark Festival at Eysham hall in February .Got the autograph from Smith .He has been both working on marketing survey for a long time and a long time Motor Racing enthusiast and follower .He told me he wanted to apply some of the things he used in his job, to the Motor Racing statistics ..

He regretted so much there has been in the past, mainly in the internet, so many attempts to try to put a classification on all time greatests F1 drivers,but which all have been rather dull, incomplete or partial ones.

Period covered goes from 1950 to Schumacher, but partial stats for Alonso , Hamilton and Raikkonen are inside as well.

So Roger Smith put his energy in many years research .The result worth every penny .I was happy to be the first crossing the channel ( Roger Smith dixit) with this book in my bag !

this book feel a hole regarding F1 statistics .it is a very in depth graphical demonstrations without any personal feelings : only crossing graphs with graphs .But the context of each era hasn 't been forgotten .Simply, this context has been transformed in numbers too .

A very rewarding reading, cause many new parameters have been introduced, casual statisticians didn 't put so far .
it is a complete coherent system of crossing diagrams . Smith did it, and he did with application. The more you 'll read, the more you 'll feel how much time consuming the task must have been to publish that work .

Below, the chapters , then an extract , with a graph and comments .Roughly 150 different graphs and dispersion coordinate tables .At the end, there is final podium among the "serious winners".A serious work, without doubt .

Roger Smith , I remember, didn 't want to give us the answer , so I will not put it there .Let say Roger Smith
is at least revealing thing that have not been demonstrated before, to those interested in F1 statitistics :

1 - statistics shows there has been 12 SERIAL WINNERS only

2 - he identified a "MAGNIFICIENT SEVEN" group among them


Michel

(I will edit and delete the images, if it infringe someone interest or copyright )

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Now available direct from the author

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#3344 helioseism

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:43

New book on the first Indianapolis 500:

Fastest Of The First

I get the feeling it is not an unbiased view.

Here is background on the publisher: Belcher Foundation

#3345 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:57

I would like to post info on a book Tom Johnston and I have been working on. Is this the thread where I should let people know about the book?

Vince H.

#3346 Graham Gauld

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:15

Bradbury West

I am having lunch with Simon Moore today. He is doing the final checking on the page proofs of the 2900 book.

#3347 fines

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:33

Originally posted by helioseism
New book on the first Indianapolis 500:

Fastest Of The First

I get the feeling it is not an unbiased view.

Here is background on the publisher: Belcher Foundation

Well, that does it for me! :rolleyes: Thnx for the link.

#3348 petefenelon

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 09:16

Originally posted by PRD



Now available direct from the author

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...1QQcmdZViewItem


Just looking at the scanned pages M Needforspeed posted, and any claim to rigour goes straight out of the window - Smith identifies the "20/20/5" rule (20 world championship GP wins, 20% 'strike rate' and 5 'winning seasons') to define his elite class of drivers, then puts Moss in there with 16 wins.

Which says more about stats books than about Moss. If you have to bend your own rules to let the Maestro in... what's the point?

#3349 jph

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:45

Originally posted by petefenelon


Just looking at the scanned pages M Needforspeed posted, and any claim to rigour goes straight out of the window - Smith identifies the "20/20/5" rule (20 world championship GP wins, 20% 'strike rate' and 5 'winning seasons') to define his elite class of drivers, then puts Moss in there with 16 wins.

Which says more about stats books than about Moss. If you have to bend your own rules to let the Maestro in... what's the point?


He appears to define it as 20 wins OR 20% strike rate over 5 winning seasons. Thus Moss qualifies on the basis of strike rate and number of seasons, rather than absolute number of wins. This would at least partly address the distortion that would otherwise be caused by the the greater number of world championship Grands Prix in more recent years.

In the end, though, statistics, even when analysed with some rigour, do not answer the unanswerable question of who was 'greatest' or 'best'. All they can prove, at the most, is who was numerically the most successful.

#3350 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:52

Originally posted by jph
In the end, though, statistics, even when analysed with some rigour, do not answer the unanswerable question of who was 'greatest' or 'best'. All they can prove, at the most, is who was numerically the most successful.


This has yet to stop any of the various endeavors devoted to doing so, despite there being other, more interesting and relevant topics where the time and effort could be better spent.....